Tiny Suggestion: Hidden shoulder scars/tattoos

[TillForPie]

It seems odd that you can see a person's shoulder scars and tattoos even when the character has an aba, cloak, or djellabah closed about them. The abas and djellabahs in the game in particular are sleeved items and would hide scars and tattoos on the shoulder even when open. Cloaks of course aren't sleeved but when closed they hide shirts, belts, and sheathed weapons while leaving the shoulders viewable. Obviously this isn't a big deal but it's a minor change I know I'd appreciate. Maybe others would, too.

[Delirium]

This has been an issue for a long time. Unfortunately I'm not sure if it's easily fixable.

I would be ecstatic if it was...

[ShaLeah]

What Delirium said. I always wondered why we couldn't code single items to cover more than one wear location but then again gloves cover rings do is it that hard? I know nothing about coding so I'll leave it to the experts. I'd love the change though!

[slvrmoontiger]

Is this along the same lines as the scars on the back showing when one removes their pack even if their wearing something on their torso or a cloak or a cape?

[Potaje]

wear rope shoulder

wear cloak shoulder

I think sum items let you do that, and there are a few other items out there too if I recall correctly.

[Lizzie]

What Delirium said. I always wondered why we couldn't code single items to cover more than one wear location but then again gloves cover rings do is it that hard? I know nothing about coding so I'll leave it to the experts. I'd love the change though!

There isn't anything else that covers fingers, that you can wear *combined* with gloves. In other words a pair of fingertip-length sleeves won't ever cover rings, *unless* those sleeves are worn on the hands, specifically. And once they're worn on the hands, they're no longer worn on the arms. And, if they're worn on the hands, you can't also wear a pair of gloves at the same time, because that wear-slot is taken up by the fingertip-length sleeves. Same concept as a scarf that you want to drape around your neck and shoulders. You can "wear scarf neck" or you can "wear scarf shoulders." You can't "wear scarf neck+shoulders."That's why gloves (including fingerless gloves) can cover a whole bunch of rings.

[ShaLeah]

What Delirium said. I always wondered why we couldn't code single items to cover more than one wear location but then again gloves cover rings do is it that hard? I know nothing about coding so I'll leave it to the experts. I'd love the change though!

There isn't anything else that covers fingers, that you can wear *combined* with gloves. In other words a pair of fingertip-length sleeves won't ever cover rings, *unless* those sleeves are worn on the hands, specifically. And once they're worn on the hands, they're no longer worn on the arms. And, if they're worn on the hands, you can't also wear a pair of gloves at the same time, because that wear-slot is taken up by the fingertip-length sleeves. Same concept as a scarf that you want to drape around your neck and shoulders. You can "wear scarf neck" or you can "wear scarf shoulders." You can't "wear scarf neck+shoulders."That's why gloves (including fingerless gloves) can cover a whole bunch of rings.

Well I didn't suggest gloves can/are combined with anything. I said they cover rings, which they do. Somehow the code knows fingers are covered by anything worn on the hands and I don't understand why we can't teach it/code it so that every item made covers whatever area of the body it should.

Like I said, I'll leave that to the experts.

[Lizzie]

What Delirium said. I always wondered why we couldn't code single items to cover more than one wear location but then again gloves cover rings do is it that hard? I know nothing about coding so I'll leave it to the experts. I'd love the change though!

There isn't anything else that covers fingers, that you can wear *combined* with gloves. In other words a pair of fingertip-length sleeves won't ever cover rings, *unless* those sleeves are worn on the hands, specifically. And once they're worn on the hands, they're no longer worn on the arms. And, if they're worn on the hands, you can't also wear a pair of gloves at the same time, because that wear-slot is taken up by the fingertip-length sleeves. Same concept as a scarf that you want to drape around your neck and shoulders. You can "wear scarf neck" or you can "wear scarf shoulders." You can't "wear scarf neck+shoulders."That's why gloves (including fingerless gloves) can cover a whole bunch of rings.

Well I didn't suggest gloves can/are combined with anything. I said they cover rings, which they do. Somehow the code knows fingers are covered by anything worn on the hands and I don't understand why we can't teach it/code it so that every item made covers whatever area of the body it should.

Like I said, I'll leave that to the experts.

Like I said - it's because items can only cover one wearloc at a time. Fingers are an anomaly of the code; they're really not independent wearlocs. You can't wear a pair of fingerless gloves, and leave the rings still visible. Fingers are a subset of the hands wearloc. You -cannot- wear gloves on the fingers - if you could, you'd need one glove for each finger. Fingers are like "extra descriptions" in a room (although that isn't what they are - but they're like that, in that they don't work the way other things work).

You can't wear fingertip-length sleeves and expect them to cover the fingers, because if they did, they would no longer be able to be worn on the arms. They can cover EITHER the arms OR the hands, not both, at the same time. They can be made to be wearable on both - but just not at the same time.

Yes, you can have a cape flagged so that it will cover *a* shoulder. But then you'll need two of them - one to cover each shoulder. And you will NOT be able to *also* wear an epaullete at the same time, because the shoulder location is already occupied. And, if you're wearing that cape on one shoulder, it means you are -not- wearing it on your back, torso, about the throat, neck, or arms. It wouldn't cover anything other than whatever is under it on that one shoulder.

[TillForPie]

Is there a way in the code to make something invisible when certain conditions are met, independent of the clothing layering system?

[Lizzie]

Is there a way in the code to make something invisible when certain conditions are met, independent of the clothing layering system?

The help files give vague references to magicks involving shadows and being unseen. (help drovian, help whiran).
There is also a way to move objects from pocket to inventory, from inventory to pocket, without being detected (help palm, help plant, help steal).

Anything more than that, I would say either - isn't implemented, or is information you'd have to discover in the game itself (or not).

[TillForPie]

Is there a way in the code to make something invisible when certain conditions are met, independent of the clothing layering system?

The help files give vague references to magicks involving shadows and being unseen. (help drovian, help whiran).
There is also a way to move objects from pocket to inventory, from inventory to pocket, without being detected (help palm, help plant, help steal).

Anything more than that, I would say either - isn't implemented, or is information you'd have to discover in the game itself (or not).

You misunderstand me: I'm not looking for a way to hide something in-game, I'm asking if such a mechanic could be coded into the game to render tattoos/scars invisible when objects that would cover them are present, as a roundabout way of solving the problem.

[Lizzie]

Is there a way in the code to make something invisible when certain conditions are met, independent of the clothing layering system?

The help files give vague references to magicks involving shadows and being unseen. (help drovian, help whiran).
There is also a way to move objects from pocket to inventory, from inventory to pocket, without being detected (help palm, help plant, help steal).

Anything more than that, I would say either - isn't implemented, or is information you'd have to discover in the game itself (or not).

You misunderstand me: I'm not looking for a way to hide something in-game, I'm asking if such a mechanic could be coded into the game to render tattoos/scars invisible when objects that would cover them are present, as a roundabout way of solving the problem.

Any items worn/wearable on the shoulder would obscure inks and scars. This already is in the game. The shoulder is a wear-location - and there are several items you can wear there.

I believe you can also remove an ink by adding a scar - I've never done it, and don't know of it requires staff intervention or not, but it has definitely been done.

[TillForPie]

Any items worn/wearable on the shoulder would obscure inks and scars. This already is in the game. The shoulder is a wear-location - and there are several items you can wear there.

Yes, but that doesn't really address the point of the thread as stated in the OP.

[flurry]

I'd like to see a fix to this. Shoulder tattoos are kind of awkward, as it is, unless you opt to wear something in that location.

Cloaks already can conceal multiple wear locations, so I can't imagine it would be a big stretch, code-wise. In any case, it's a good suggestion.

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

Yes it can be done. No its not hard to implement.

[MeTekillot]

It's probably not difficult, but exceedingly tedious, if there's no sort of system for sorting items besides what I understand there to be a very limited keyword search function.

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

I'm guessing that there is a section in the look function that dictates what is seen and what is not seen. It doesn't use keywords to hide stuff; it does so by wear location, which is a list ... an array I think. Although now that I think about it, tattoos aren't objects' so I may be thinking about this wrong. They are extra descriptions.

[MeTekillot]

I'm talking about items themselves. They'd have to go around changing items to have the multiple-wear-loc-covering functionality.

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

No, they would change a section in look. Items don't hide other items based on key words or on-item scripts or anything. They hide them because an array in the code says that things on this wear location hide things on that wear location. So the change wouldn't be a per-item change - it would be a per-wear-location change.

[Lizzie]

No, they would change a section in look. Items don't hide other items based on key words or on-item scripts or anything. They hide them because an array in the code says that things on this wear location hide things on that wear location. So the change wouldn't be a per-item change - it would be a per-wear-location change.

That wouldn't work though. Someone wearing a sleeveless vest in the "body" location - shouldn't be covering the same shoulder tattooes that someone wearing a long-sleeved shirt in the "body" location. And of course there are scads of items that don't specify in their *sdesc* whether they're longsleeved or shortsleeved - but their *mdesc* do specify. So someone would need to not just go through all the items to check keywords - they'd have to read the full descriptions of every single item that didn't include a specification on the keyword.

Each item would need to be checked, to make sure it is covering the appropriate spots, IF something like this was implemented. This is probably why it hasn't been implemented.

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

Oh. Heh. Well, currently it's all done by wear locations. So yes, that would indeed mean everything had to be checked.

That would be an immense undertaking.

[Delirium]

Just make shoulder tattoos covered by about_body items, i.e. cloaks.

[Lizzie]

Just make shoulder tattoos covered by about_body items, i.e. cloaks.

Sleeveless cloaks also are worn about the body. As are certain jackets that have no sleeves, and capes that don't close and are typically worn thrown back behind the wearer (aka OFF the shoulder, not ON it), not draped in front of the wearer.

Again, this would require that the staff check every single item that is worn about the body, to make sure that they're not covering shoulders that the item shouldn't cover. Not just check for keywords, but read each and every mdesc.

[Delirium]

Yes, but for an overall fix, cloaks are a great stopgap option. The number of sleeveless cloaks that people actually wear without sleeves is pretty damn low.

[Ouroboros]

Just make shoulder tattoos covered by about_body items, i.e. cloaks.

Sleeveless cloaks also are worn about the body. As are certain jackets that have no sleeves, and capes that don't close and are typically worn thrown back behind the wearer (aka OFF the shoulder, not ON it), not draped in front of the wearer.

Again, this would require that the staff check every single item that is worn about the body, to make sure that they're not covering shoulders that the item shouldn't cover. Not just check for keywords, but read each and every mdesc.

Eh, not really. Cloaks hide certain locations when closed, and reveal them when open. Specifically, they hide the torso, belt, waist, and anything worn on belts. Cloaks that do not have open/close capability generally do not hide anything, even if they're coded as containers. If one wishes to wear their cloak in an open fashion, shoulders and such exposed as if worn like a cape, they can simply open their cloaks. If they've closed their cloaks to the point that the torso and midwaist is hidden, chances are the shoulders should be hidden as well anyway, as an extension of the torso.

Keep in mind however that this would also hide anything worn on the shoulders as well, not just a tattoo that might be visible if nothing's worn. In some cases, such as epaulettes, this might be realistic as those pieces would likely be attached to whatever you're wearing on your torso, not on the cloak itself. In some cases though, such as birds, this would be an issue as you don't normally cover your pirate parrot with your cloak. Unless it's raining and you don't want it to catch a cold, but that happens once in a black moon. So then the player would have to remember to keep such cloaks open, with shoulders visible.

Unless of course tattoo locations can be targeted independently of wearlocs, in which case it's all groovy. If that was the case though, I imagine we wouldn't be having this issue to begin with. Anything worn on the torso would also hide shoulder and back tattoos, boots and/or legs would hide ankle tattoos, etc. So chances are, if a true fix to the issue was desired, the targetting of tattoo locations would have to be coded first, aside from any nuance issues of having to go through reading sdescs and mdescs.

For the rare few truly sleevesless "about body" garments, assuming they hid anything to begin with which some don't, well... Tough luck. We can bug them during the course of play and they could be adjusted accordingly if it's a serious issue. But I can personally only think of 2-3 such sleeveless cloaks/robes, which means at most there's twice that in use in the game. It comes down to what's more realistic... Having shoulder tattoos visible 24/7, regardless of what clothing you're wearing, or having shoulder tattoos hidden by the handful of sleeveless cloaks out there that can't be opened. And even then, whether something like a sleeveless cloak or robe should even reveal the shoulders, as opposed to just the arms, is debatable to the point of having very little merit.

TL;DR: It's doable, possibly could lead to new issues by hiding worn shoulder objects, which could be addressed via the open/close function of cloaks, and thematically might be more realistic than the current alternative.

[evilcabbage]

Just make shoulder tattoos covered by about_body items, i.e. cloaks.

Unless of course tattoo locations can be targeted independently of wearlocs, in which case it's all groovy. If that was the case though, I imagine we wouldn't be having this issue to begin with. Anything worn on the torso would also hide shoulder and back tattoos, boots and/or legs would hide ankle tattoos, etc. So chances are, if a true fix to the issue was desired, the targetting of tattoo locations would have to be coded first, aside from any nuance issues of having to go through reading sdescs and mdescs.


TL;DR: It's doable, possibly could lead to new issues by hiding worn shoulder objects, which could be addressed via the open/close function of cloaks, and thematically might be more realistic than the current alternative.

No, they wouldn't, because breastplates are a front piece, not a back piece. Cuirasses, yes, but any plating specifically directed at the front is not going to hide much if anything on the back.

[Ouroboros]

Much as I'd love to debate that with you, read the thread's subject line and let's stick to that. As opposed to picking at a single sentence that was a side-note in my post and arguing it for argument's sake.

The thread is specifically about shoulder locations. Cloaks have been suggested as a realistic choice of garment to hide them, because code and time limitations would make treating this with full realism unfeasible. If you've got thoughts to share on that, by all means...

[evilcabbage]

I'm pretty much agreeing with that much right there. The cloaks can moreo r less be made as general shoulder covers, and any sleeveless variants can be modified. There's like, what, three sleeveless variants? If that?

[Jherlen]

Do fingerless gloves still hide rings? (I'm thinking yes?)

If so, then I'm fine with sleeveless cloaks and vests hiding shoulder tattoos. If not, then whatever code makes fingerless gloves act different from fingered ones could be extended to apply to sleeveless cloaks/vests too.

[Ouroboros]

Do fingerless gloves still hide rings? (I'm thinking yes?)

Yep, they do. Exactly due to the aforementioned coded limitations of the game.

[Lizzie]

Just make shoulder tattoos covered by about_body items, i.e. cloaks.

Unless of course tattoo locations can be targeted independently of wearlocs, in which case it's all groovy. If that was the case though, I imagine we wouldn't be having this issue to begin with. Anything worn on the torso would also hide shoulder and back tattoos, boots and/or legs would hide ankle tattoos, etc. So chances are, if a true fix to the issue was desired, the targetting of tattoo locations would have to be coded first, aside from any nuance issues of having to go through reading sdescs and mdescs.


TL;DR: It's doable, possibly could lead to new issues by hiding worn shoulder objects, which could be addressed via the open/close function of cloaks, and thematically might be more realistic than the current alternative.

No, they wouldn't, because breastplates are a front piece, not a back piece. Cuirasses, yes, but any plating specifically directed at the front is not going to hide much if anything on the back.

You need to learn how to use quote-nests. There is nothing in the quotes above, that can be attributed to me. It looks like you hit the quote button on a post, then deleted everything *I* said, and nested what you said, into the quoted post, so that it looked like you hadn't actually responded but instead, quoted yourself responding to things other people said - including me - though the quote of what I said isn't in there - only my name, and a response that belongs to someone else.

[evilcabbage]

Probably because nothing I had to say, at all, had anything to do with you, at all, and came from the quote that I was referencing in regards to breastplates. Done yet?

[Lizzie]

Probably because nothing I had to say, at all, had anything to do with you, at all, and came from the quote that I was referencing in regards to breastplates. Done yet?

Except it made it look like I was saying whatever it was that Ouroboros said. And I didn't say that. He did.

[Chettaman]

This topic is so old.

But I feel like it should be addressed once more because I want my sleeved items to cover my arm armor and a lot of my shoulder tats.

[IAmJacksOpinion]

I'll second that Chettaman.

I think 7DeadlyVenomz had the right of it here. I can't imagine how adding functionality to hide shoulders when cloak is closed would be very difficult. I don't know what the fuck lizzie was talking about (nothing new there) about digging through mdescs, but a simple around body <- left/right shoulder relationship should probably be a pretty easy add.

[Beethoven]

I just want the "revealing an Ed Hardy tattoo/a pair of boring scars" message to go away if you are removing something like, say, a backpack, but are still wearing clothes that cover the tattoo/scar when someone "looks" at you.

[slvrmoontiger]

I just want the "revealing an Ed Hardy tattoo/a pair of boring scars" message to go away if you are removing something like, say, a backpack, but are still wearing clothes that cover the tattoo/scar when someone "looks" at you.

This so needs to be fixed.