Allanaki City Elves

[HavokBlue]

but that's wrong

it's in place because staff said something vague about reworking the documentation of the Jaxa Pah several months ago and are either still working on it or forgot about it

[CodeMaster]

I can kind of see where both sides of this are coming from.  Disorganized rambling to follow.

There's this scene in House of Cards (season 1, episode 10 maybe?) where Frank Underwood is engaged in conflict with every single person he knows including his wife.  After being updated by his assistant on all these parallel games he's playing, he asks his assistant if he wants to play chess - like "hey how about you be my opponent too?"



His assistant is just like "no thanks" and leaves.  It's a great exchange and, to me, one of Underwood's defining moments.  I guess my point is that Frank Underwood is like a city elf.  He's out to one up everyone, game the system to the hilt, and never quite lets anyone see behind the mask.  He wouldn't really be the same character with a "tribe" to fall back on. 

And yeah, he's playing hardmode+++.

This xenophobic distrust is currently one of the most pronounced facets of playing a city elf, and I think Armaddict's point is that if it were easy to just slot yourself into "the Allanak tribe", this facet of play is at risk of being diminished or extinguished.

But, I also understand why people are clamoring for the opportunities to play tribal city elves.  If you're not prepared for the role, you might think being a city elf revolves around being scowled at, being neck-lifted by half-giant soldiers during interrogations, being told to "move on", and being rejected from all(?) the clans.  Yipee!  (It's not that bad, but it can look that bad.)

[valeria]

I don't know what would be stopping someone from putting in a family role request for a group of related elves if they wanted to have people against whom to play the family aspect of elven racial roleplay.  Is there something prohibiting that that I'm unaware of?

I've always played my elves like I would play a dwarf who had a focus of "do what is best for the tribe" and a subfocus of "especially by taking things to which we're not entitled."

[HavokBlue]

You can app a family of elves but you can't call it a tribe

Yeah I don't understand either

[CodeMaster]

I will add, if city elves are lacking anywhere, it's that they miss out on some of the OOC perks of being in a clan.

My impression (which may not be accurate) is that the clan-initiated get a web board to privately organize playing times, an OOC rumor board to write fun rumors on, a store room to pile your junk in, gate guards, consistent access to sparring partners in a safe place, goal-oriented social RP, and contracts and quests which are often graciously overseen by staff members who can direct plot arcs.

In Allanak, a city elf can join the Byn and achieve much of this (but the Byn is kind of desert-oriented, so it's not the best fit).  If she doesn't, she has to orchestrate much of this herself, and it's my impression*** that the independents team responsible for city elves has a much hairier job than the southern team responsible for the Byn, so it can be harder to throw achievable "quests" at the short-lived city elves.

***(hopefully this is not unfair, because I love what the staff do)

[IntuitiveApathy]

His assistant is just like "no thanks" and leaves.  It's a great exchange and, to me, one of Underwood's defining moments.  I guess my point is that Frank Underwood is like a city elf.  He's out to one up everyone, game the system to the hilt, and never quite lets anyone see behind the mask.  He wouldn't really be the same character with a "tribe" to fall back on. 

And yeah, he's playing hardmode+++.

This xenophobic distrust is currently one of the most pronounced facets of playing a city elf, and I think Armaddict's point is that if it were easy to just slot yourself into "the Allanak tribe", this facet of play is at risk of being diminished or extinguished.

I think the point most people are making is that a big reason why so few people play city elves is that it is hardmode+++ without an actual coded tribe.  I think OOC needs to be separated from IC here.  IC: Elves aren't supposed to be elves unto themselves, they're supposed to be xenophobic against everyone else not from their tribe (including other elves not from their tribe).  OOC: There can't be any other elves from your virtual tribe in the game that you can actually interact with other than virtually for any sort of support whatsoever, resulting in your character being an elf unto themselves. 

Since the documentation is pretty clear and has been for years that elves aren't supposed to be elves unto themselves, I don't see why we should be concerned that that facet of play is at risk of being diminished or extinguished.  Unless staff are wanting to make that gameworld change that is, which they haven't indicated at all.  And I don't see why they would because again, hardmode+++.  The city elf player population is and has been ridiculously low compared to IC proportions for basically ever, as has already been pointed out, and I don't see why staff would want to push even more people away from playing them.  And there's always the fact that you could make an elf unto themselves if you really wanted to anyway - your "special" elf could just be the insane paranoid one that doesn't trust anyone at all (not even their own tribe members have passed whatever ridiculous standard of tests this elf has?).

Armaddict was trying to make the point that tribe =/= clan.  But to me this is creating a divide between IC/OOC unnecessarily here.  Yes, we could say that and make that separation.  But why would we want to?  The whole point of the coded clan is all the resulting OOC support, and in order to make this translate to IC support of what an elven tribe should be in the game, tribe should equal clan for city elves.

[HavokBlue]

This guy gets it

[BleakOne]

I would support City Elves being given a special allowance for making family role calls and actually allowing them to be called tribes, with the understanding that no new tribe-members can be created for said tribe after the initial group.

I also think they really badly need a clan in each city to be part of, but I think staff know this as well, and are working on it.

[CodeMaster]

I think the point most people are making is that a big reason why so few people play city elves is that it is hardmode+++ without an actual coded tribe.  I think OOC needs to be separated from IC here.  IC: Elves aren't supposed to be elves unto themselves, they're supposed to be xenophobic against everyone else not from their tribe (including other elves not from their tribe).  OOC: There can't be any other elves from your virtual tribe in the game that you can actually interact with other than virtually for any sort of support whatsoever, resulting in your character being an elf unto themselves. 

Since the documentation is pretty clear and has been for years that elves aren't supposed to be elves unto themselves...

I will nitpick this point because the docs are a bit conflicting on it.  Sorry.   From the elven roleplay helpfile:

Tribeless elves, armed with their overwhelming distrust for anyone but themselves, will likely find much reason to apply tests to determine those that are loyal, and those that are not.

This suggests, to me, that tribeless city elves aren't that much of an anomoly.  It could be explained ICly by saying that the city has had a fragmenting, deracinating effect on the elven population, or whatever.  But I can see where you're coming from because you also get passages like this (at the very start of the helpfile!):

To an elf, tribe is key. The tribe is almost always placed before the individual for an elf. While city elves may operate more or less independently, they too form small tribes within the walls of the city. Elves, all elves, are deathly loyal to their tribe...

Since the former is effectively (if not ICly) the situation the player population is in, it seemed worth pointing out that the lone elf is not in direct conflict with the documents.

...I don't see why we should be concerned that that facet of play is at risk of being diminished or extinguished.  Unless staff are wanting to make that gameworld change that is, which they haven't indicated at all.  And I don't see why they would because again, hardmode+++.

I can see your point here, but you can see mine (and what I believe was one of Armaddict's points) - even if you think it's moot.  Pointing it out helps other players see the use of the status quo (and apparently how the elves operated in 1999)...

  "In the matter of reforming things [...] there is [...] a principle
  which will probably be called a paradox. There exists [...]  a fence
  or gate erected across a road. The more modern type of reformer goes
  gaily up to it and says, "I don't see the use of this; let us clear
  it away."  To which the more intelligent type of reformer will do
  well to answer: "If you don't see the use of it, I certainly won't
  let you clear it away.  Go away and think.  Then, when you can come
  back and tell me that you do see the use of it, I may allow you to
  destroy it." --G K Chesterton

Feel free to pull rank on me here, but this is the approach I'm trying to take in this discussion.  I'm really not strongly arguing one way or the other.

The city elf player population is and has been ridiculously low compared to IC proportions for basically ever, as has already been pointed out, and I don't see why staff would want to push even more people away from playing them.  And there's always the fact that you could make an elf unto themselves if you really wanted to anyway - your "special" elf could just be the insane paranoid one that doesn't trust anyone at all (not even their own tribe members have passed whatever ridiculous standard of tests this elf has?).

I see your point.  But you can see mine.

Armaddict was trying to make the point that tribe =/= clan.  But to me this is creating a divide between IC/OOC unnecessarily here.  Yes, we could say that and make that separation.  But why would we want to?  The whole point of the coded clan is all the resulting OOC support, and in order to make this translate to IC support of what an elven tribe should be in the game, tribe should equal clan for city elves.

That was one of his points that I agree with less.  I agree with you in this case: clans do confer some really sweet OOC benefits that could alleviate elven hardmode syndrome (see my post above).

If it were up to me, though, I'd inflict hardmode+++ on everyone else, rather than soften up the playability of elves.

[Fujikoma]

If it were up to me, though, I'd inflict hardmode+++ on everyone else, rather than soften up the playability of elves.

Reduce elves to hardmode++ and you'll see that exact thing take place.

[racurtne]

If it were up to me, though, I'd inflict hardmode+++ on everyone else, rather than soften up the playability of elves.

Reduce elves to hardmode++ and you'll see that exact thing take place.

[Zoan]

I prefer New Game+ when I play City Elves.

[Fujikoma]

I prefer New Game+ when I play City Elves.

World destroying defiler theme music... the other one gets "Pokey Means Business"...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xpaJulksCik

Fight the power.

EDIT: Everyone wants to kill a god... those brought up on Final Fantasy all know this is the final goal... nevermind you won't! It's the struggle! Fight!

[IntuitiveApathy]

I think the point most people are making is that a big reason why so few people play city elves is that it is hardmode+++ without an actual coded tribe.  I think OOC needs to be separated from IC here.  IC: Elves aren't supposed to be elves unto themselves, they're supposed to be xenophobic against everyone else not from their tribe (including other elves not from their tribe).  OOC: There can't be any other elves from your virtual tribe in the game that you can actually interact with other than virtually for any sort of support whatsoever, resulting in your character being an elf unto themselves. 

Since the documentation is pretty clear and has been for years that elves aren't supposed to be elves unto themselves...

I will nitpick this point because the docs are a bit conflicting on it.  Sorry.   From the elven roleplay helpfile:

Tribeless elves, armed with their overwhelming distrust for anyone but themselves, will likely find much reason to apply tests to determine those that are loyal, and those that are not.

This suggests, to me, that tribeless city elves aren't that much of an anomoly.  It could be explained ICly by saying that the city has had a fragmenting, deracinating effect on the elven population, or whatever.  But I can see where you're coming from because you also get passages like this (at the very start of the helpfile!):

To an elf, tribe is key. The tribe is almost always placed before the individual for an elf. While city elves may operate more or less independently, they too form small tribes within the walls of the city. Elves, all elves, are deathly loyal to their tribe...

Since the former is effectively (if not ICly) the situation the player population is in, it seemed worth pointing out that the lone elf is not in direct conflict with the documents.

True - maybe your elf had his or her tribe murderized recently, so now they are actually an elf unto themselves.  Or your elf was cast out from their old tribe, or whatever.  The staff can't wave some kind of magic want to prevent those kinds of stories from turning out in the gameworld, because to do so would be unrealistic.  But any elf in that position is supposed to be trying to get into a tribe if they're tribeless, because for elves tribe=life.  The tests tribeless elves are running are IMO in part, them trying to determine who might be worthy of being in a tribe with again.  I believe that is the point that the docs are trying to make.

[Patuk]

There's that, and then there's tribeless elves banding together for a new tribe, eventually. Unfortunately, no pc can do so.

[CodeMaster]

But any elf in that position is supposed to be trying to get into a tribe if they're tribeless, because for elves tribe=life.  The tests tribeless elves are running are IMO in part, them trying to determine who might be worthy of being in a tribe with again.  I believe that is the point that the docs are trying to make.

I haven't read anything about city elves having a compulsion to get into a tribe when they're independent... but I think you raise a really good point:

Previous discussions I've read on this topic suggest to me that the staff's stance is that "tribes" can only emerge after a generation or two of trust in a cohesive family unit (but my memory might be foggy, and I don't have a link handy).

So, should Joe Eastside have a yearning to assemble a trusted "inner circle" that might one day lead to a tribe?  It seems like the answer should be yes, otherwise tribes wouldn't be a "thing".

The thing that makes this interesting is that this inner circle is so hard to create, because everyone's constantly testing and trying everyone else and assuming the worst of them.

[FantasyWriter]

I guess, in that case, the trick would be to live long enough to have children become non-virtual PCs.

[Harmless]

I haven't played a city elf in a while, but I have played both in the Akai and tribeless city elves.

I enjoyed both.

The raison d'être for this thread is to incept or compell the staff into making a new city elf tribe. I don't disagree with that in general, but would be a lot more into the idea of it if it was something built from the ground up, which might mean yes, living long enough to have non-virtual PC children.

If there was some cause, some justification for elves to band together more, a reason that was based entirely on IC events and was lasting, then this might already be happening now.. but I don't know of anything and if it does exist, please don't spoil it in this thread. Just go out and be the change already.

[HavokBlue]

Real talk the odds of elves with no coded clan support living long enough in the labyrinth to have non virtual kids: zero.

[Harmless]

I agree. There's maybe 3 players in the game at a time who are actively playing city elves that long lived. And I bet they'd rather store than bother trying to make a tribe from scratch.

[Patuk]

I'd love to try and in all probability fail to make a tribe. The problem doesn't lie so much in willingness as much as it does in people not being allowed to recruit into/form their own tribes.

[Fujikoma]

All I can say is there might or might not just be a few someones trying to be the change. Followed with the obligatory "Find out IC".

[IntuitiveApathy]

The thing that makes this interesting is that this inner circle is so hard to create, because everyone's constantly testing and trying everyone else and assuming the worst of them.

Hence, hardmode+++.

[spicemustflow]

All I can say is there might or might not just be a few someones trying to be the change. Followed with the obligatory "Find out IC".

Look man, there's no "be the change" when staff have explicitly said that forming new tribes isn't allowed. You can form a close circle of trusted friends but it'll never grow into a tribe.

[HavokBlue]

It would be neat if staff would clarify whether or not a new Allanaki c-elf clan/tribe/whateveryouwanttocallit is still on the way.