Allanaki City Elves

[Qzzrbl]

I think one of the best thins that can be done with new Jaxa documents is make it easier for people to play IN the clan. Labyrinth clans are notoriously difficult to join, and for northern elves, joining the Akai is a much easier affair.

Also, it might have been possible in the past, but it would be neat if players could apply for characters in the tribe via role application request similar to how coded human tribes function.

Now that wouldn't be a bad idea-- but think of The Guild. Having players able to app right into a city-based tribe would unbalance things in 'Rinth something fierce*, which wouldn't make much sense given the documentation. It was almost like that even without being able to app straight in before the Jaxa Pah were closed.

*And I mean this in the sense that I don't think The Guild, one of the supposedly more feared Clans around, should ever be in a position to where they have to kneel to the eastside or face "huehuehueeveryoneintheclanisdeadnow".

[HavokBlue]

It might upset numbers in the Guild-Jaxa tug of war that always seems to happen, but the Guild has plenty of other advantages, notably, the fact that they aren't elves.

[Qzzrbl]

but the Guild has plenty of other advantages, notably, the fact that they aren't elves.

Which doesn't help much when there's a chance that the Guild Leader logs in and--OH GREAT NOW I HAVE TO START A WHOLE NOTHER F'CKING CREW.

[HavokBlue]

It makes significantly more sense ICly for elves to have been born into the tribe than join off the street, and much like existing app-able tribes, staff can monitor player numbers and deny applications if it seems like there are issues with too many players.

[Qzzrbl]

It makes significantly more sense ICly for elves to have been born into the tribe than join off the street.

Does it? 'Cause every bit of documentation I've read on City Elves and their RP so far have never mentioned blood relation being necessary to be a tribe. I'm not disagreeing with you wholesale, as it does hint at entire families being in tribes, but I thought they already had it set up according to docs before? With elves belonging to families within the tribe having to special app (or something) their way in and take others in off the street ICly.

and much like existing app-able tribes, staff can monitor player numbers and deny applications if it seems like there are issues with too many players.

Yeah, good point.

[HavokBlue]

Maybe it was, although I can't recall any instance of non-sponsored blood members of the Jaxa that I've encountered. The docs state explicitly that there are three families in the tribe. Does that mean there are three families with distinct traits and quirks, and then a big group of elves with no blood-relation to the tribe who were just swept up off the street?

I mean, tribes have to come from somewhere, but if everyone is just a random necker out of the alleys, it really detracts from the tribal experience as it is the functional equivalent of any other clan where you can just be recruited in-game.

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

Perhaps the Jaxa could go from being a strictly east-side clan to being a Allanaki Proper clan as well. Branches, if you like. Then you still have the one clan, with ties in the Rinth, but members that might never have even been to the Rinth.

[catchall]

Do they? 'Cause every bit of documentation I've read on City Elves and their RP so far have never mentioned blood relation being necessary to be a tribe.

Yes.  The notion of 'joining' a tribe is actually pretty bizarre IC, and should probably be relatively uncommon.

From "Elven Roleplay" Doc:

Elves also naturally trust their tribemates. They know that every elf in their tribe feels the same loyalty they do - so they have a strong ingrained trust and even reliance upon all of their kin. To act in a harmful way against a tribemate is an unthinkable act in an elven tribe.

"Kin" is a bit broader than blood relative, but not by much.  It definitely denotes a familial relationship. The very notion of elven tribes makes zero sense unless they are based on birth.  The entire existence of tribeless elves and the documentation around them supports this.  Tribeless elves are shiftless and paranoid, and trust no one.  We could definitely think of reasons why a tribe might want to increase its numbers and take in outsiders, but a tribeless elf should be viewed with suspicion for years at least, as all the requisite loyalty tests were carried out.  How else could the tribe possibly know that this tribeless isn't just pulling an elaborate swindle on them? (which they almost certainly are!)  Forming a tribe from tribeless elves would be a similar process, complicated by the greater number of relationships all of which are characterized fundamentally by distrust.   This might happen from time to time, but IC, most new tribes would probably be formed from families having many children.  Since PCs rarely raise families that turn into other PCs, this kind of situation won't be seen much in game.

Until that trust is established, any idea that they are "tribe" is pure delusion.  The tribeless knows it.  The tribe definitely knows it.  Without that complete mutual trust and reliance, they aren't tribe, and among elves that takes a long time to establish.  It could certainly happen, but it would be an even bigger deal than a human taking a life oath with their House.  Elf tribes aren't human clans that you can just "join up with" frivolously.  To the degree that coded tribes do accept outsiders, in most cases it seems more appropriate to consider outsiders employees of the tribe, like the distinction between an employee and family member in other clans.  I would be surprised if the roleplay of coded tribes did not already take this into account.  Elves aren't humans that just join and form groups willy-nilly.  If you don't have born tribemates, you don't have a tribe.  All you have is the arduous road of elven distrust and loyalty tests.

Consequence: Elf tribes need some way of populating their ranks of born members. For tribes that are supposed to be populous, you should probably be able to app in directly from character creation similar to how you might app a D-elf.  However, there's a certain overhead involved because players have to be made aware of who are the other PCs apping into their tribe. Presumably they have known one another for years. 

[HavokBlue]

It could be handled the same way desert elves are, with a simple post on the clan discussion board.

[Seeker]

Why not allow the concept of a "default" tribe for PC c-elves in each starting location? 

Nothing coded, but just the simple fact that if you are playing a c-elf PC, any other c-elf PC you meet who isn't already in one of the fancier coded clans/tribes by default is probably your kin and tribemate.  Instant partner.

Players could decide not to have their new c-elf characters be part of this group if they wished, but I think it would go a long way to solving the issues of isolation and lack of tribe play described above.

Elves need backup.  They need the support of other the sharpears to keep things properly balanced.  This would do it.  Wouldn't take any coding or staffing energy, and it goes a long way to making c-elves playable provided more than one person is trying at a time to do it.


Seeker

[Quirk]

I suppose a question I have is -- Do players enjoy playing city elves enough to warrant these kinds of changes? I played several city-elves in the past, both in the Labyrinth and Allanak, and didn't have much trouble playing to the documentation and having a great time. They are a difficult race to get into, but i'm unsure if broad changes to the race as a whole are going to solve the problem for some people. Should they be a more accessible race? Should they be karma restricted?

...

The goal for me is not just to fix a race so that a few people can play it and have fun with it (although that's a good secondary goal), the goal is to fix the race so that everyone in the game will have the experience of interacting with a group of racially separated, xenophobic, tight-knit, and above all numerically significant subset of Alanaki (and Tuluki) culture.

This. Very much this.

The thievery focused tribeless elf is the least interesting elf possible, not least because of the absence of other types of elves. What do you gain rolling up such an elf over rolling up a dwarf with the focus "steal more than anyone else ever!" who mentions that he likes to steal stuff by way of a conversational opener? Slightly different stats, some extra licence for creativity, a little racial pride disconnected to reality, and a healthy dose of paranoia. But hey, dwarves are more flexible - you can roll one with any focus you feel like. And humans are substantially more flexible than that.

The existence of elven tribes is what makes elves interesting. But, once you start looking at elves as tribes rather than lone wolves, it becomes apparent that elven behaviour will have to be tailored toward tribe survival. Elves are meant to be a smart race, and it absolutely makes sense that ensuring the tribe prospers comes above the short-term joy of getting away with a braggable quick scam. For a tribe to survive, it will need to play politics, acquire allies, do all the things that any group has to do to survive in a corrupt and hostile city. A single solitary tribeless elf is eminently untrustworthy, but an elven tribe is trustworthy insofar as you can depend on them to do what's in the tribe's best interests - which likely involves maintaining business relationships and keeping the powerful pacified. Those who actually have clout can deal with such tribes in safety, and find them useful. Those who can be messed about without consequence should be very careful indeed in cutting a big deal with a tribal elf, because if she can scam you now and take you for more than your future value to the tribe, she absolutely will, it's the perfect alignment of business and pleasure. Smaller deals are much less of a worry, because a repeat customer is coin in the tribe's pockets, and an elf puts tribal interests before self-gratification.

Because crossing a tribal elf is a dangerous thing to do unless you have serious backing - not just because they're numerous, but because their continued existence suggests that they are useful to someone who matters - being known to be a tribeless elf is a Bad Thing: all the fear and resentment people have against those threatening, alien sharps can be vented against you without fear of repercussions. Don't fuck with me, I have a tribe, I do, you've seen them around, they have a presence here, you've just missed them, fuck fuck fuck they aren't buying it. Because tribeless elves are powerless, you can threaten them mercilessly and hope their survival instinct trumps their desire to scam you. This is pretty much how elves already are at present, but without tribes, there's no opportunity for bluffing about tribal associations, no edge to the interaction born from humans finding an elf which is safe to torment because it's separated from its scary pack.

From a PC roleplay perspective, the urban elven tribe offers much to the social environment. It further reinforces social status by presenting a threat to the solitary human - if you don't have influence, you don't want them to pay you attention in case you become their plaything. A group of elves should be a fearful thing. Amos of Kadius probably shouldn't care about some individual rich PC tailor, but an elven tribe sees a walking moneybag that can be emptied consequence free. It creates whole new fronts of conflict. Internally, it functions very differently from a criminal organisation: you can trust your tribemates, they're not going to seek promotion by stepping into a dead man's shoes. It's probably a much more interesting group if it isn't explicitly criminal, in any case.

tl;dr version:
Urban tribal roleplay is the part of the game elves supply that can't easily be got elsewhere. Thievery not so much. The former deserves some love.

[Jherlen]

Why not allow the concept of a "default" tribe for PC c-elves in each starting location? 

Nothing coded, but just the simple fact that if you are playing a c-elf PC, any other c-elf PC you meet who isn't already in one of the fancier coded clans/tribes by default is probably your kin and tribemate.  Instant partner.

Players could decide not to have their new c-elf characters be part of this group if they wished, but I think it would go a long way to solving the issues of isolation and lack of tribe play described above.

Elves need backup.  They need the support of other the sharpears to keep things properly balanced.  This would do it.  Wouldn't take any coding or staffing energy, and it goes a long way to making c-elves playable provided more than one person is trying at a time to do it.


Seeker

+1 for sure.

[BadSkeelz]

The fact that the city elf roleplay docs start with "for an elf, tribe is key," and yet non-rinthi Allanaki city elves are essentially told to get stuffed in this regard has long struck me as unfair and an incongruity between docs and gameworld. I intend to do something about it one of these days.

[Vwest]

edit: hit post instead of preview, will finish and respost

edit 2: thought I was in edit mode, made a double post.

This is the first image that showed up in google image search under 'allanak elves'



Google has it figured out.

[Vwest]

I don't understand why some of you are trying to bring Tuluki ideas about elves to Allanak.

I was thinking the same thing.

If they want a pseudo-isolated city-state in-game, complete with elf love, Professor X style Templars and assorted ridiculousness? Have fun, but keep it out of Allanak and the rest of the game, thanks.

Well any elf tries anything with a human and every other human in the area will be standing right next to that human even if he deserves a beating.

Absolutely.

My last Byn character spotted an elf starting up on a human, that conflict turned to brawling.

Her (and every other Byn in the place) stood up from the bar / table and proceed to beat that elf senseless, like it was the most natural thing in the world. Everyone sat back down after the necker was sent packing, had some drinks (paid for by a PC merchant who enjoyed the show) and in general even the people who had disagreements within the group were getting along much better after bonding over a hate crime.

It reminded me of a documentary on the KKK, where people from all walks who would never normally associate with each other become 'brothers in arms' in what they believe to be an eternal race war. These people, everyone from enlisted soldiers to doctors to burger flippers would show up to support members of their own chapter or make a scene at an opposing groups event, with just a text or a phone call.

No questions asked, no consideration to the potential risks -- they get the call, they throw on their silly hoods and represent, sometimes with violence.

That is really how I see the racial tension in Allanak... you have your humans and your elves, both living under the rule of a government that demands obedience and where disrespecting the law will often result in death or slavery. They aren't getting along because of some understanding or because they have become used to seeing the other species around, but because they fear the wrath of the authorities more than they hate each other. Survival trumps pride and prejudice, so it mostly just comes out as bitter animosity.

Mostly.

All it takes is someone throwing a rock or a punch and that simmering tension will become a battle line for as long as it takes for the Arm to show up and start kicking people in the spine for breaking the law.

With the two species having similar numbers, it's human adaptability that keeps them in power. Where humans can look past affiliations and interpersonal animosity (if only temporarily), shoulder up and keep the other races down, elves, the only race populous enough to mount any kind of real resistance to human domination, are hamstrung by their own inability to trust others beyond their tribe, save for the exceptionally rare outsider who has passed enough tests.

It's in the average humans benefit to side with another human against everything that is not considered human (elves, breeds, magickers, etc). If inbred rednecks can work out the whole 'united we stand' deal in between rounds of pegging their cousin, I'm comfortable enough saying that this is something every Zalanthan human would know and understand from a young age.

This is why I can't ever imagine there being a Tuluk-style fantasy syndicate in Allanak proper, or even a tribe with enough influence to even be considered a coded clan.

How does the elf survive being a Runner/recruit that needs to go outside? How does the Elf ever go from Mercenary/Trooper to Sergeant, while being nearly useless, and a burden on everyone he is around?

Who would ever hire that elf over the much more capable human?

I've made that argument in-game as a reason not to hire city elves into the Byn on a couple of different characters.

From an OOC perspective, I wouldn't hire an elf PC in-game for any role requiring travel for the simple fact it is a huge pain in the ass and an unnecessary RL time investment to tote along a token flavor role. I've seen one elven Trooper since I started playing and he never managed to join in on any contract that I'm aware of. He was relegated to 'well, we have the time, we'll take the runners out for a festival of scrab murder desert training. Bring the necker I guess.'.

It was a great character, I liked playing with him and the player did a great job being exactly what I expected from an elven warrior type... but in-game practicality pretty much left him in the compound unless we made a special outing to cater to his inability to travel more than half a dozen rooms before needing to rest for 3-5 RL minutes. If it was storming and someone forgot to put the tent back in the storeroom? He still got left in the compound.

I always felt bad that he spent the time to invest in an interesting character, only to have to spend it as a glorified sparring dummy while the rest of us were roaming the Known and seeing all the incredible things you really only see on Byn-brand suicide missions.

Unfortunately, I don't really see any viable changes that don't require serious documentation amendments for city elves and their place in Allanak's society / economy or a heavy-handed deus ex that kills off 95% of the elven population, at least making the current status quo a little easier to swallow.

I'd offer to play an elf if someone wanted to start a city tribe in-game and "be the change", but...

We currently don't allow tribe-calls via players. We had abuse of this in the past, which lead to family roles requiring previous approval. The terminology difference between tribe and family may seem blurry -- especially where elves are concerned. It's something we have discussed in the past, but this is current policy as it stands.

... that doesn't look like it's going to happen.

Be the change. Just not right now, I guess.

[Italis]

As this is the World Discussion forum, I was pointing out the way elves are perceived by everyone else, not making a blanket statement regarding elven roleplay.

However, the elven racial documentation states pretty clearly that their cultural bent towards thievery encompasses an extremely wide range of activities. So no, not every single elf in Allanak is running around picking every single pocket at every opportunity. There are elven mercenaries, traders, crafters, assassins, physicians, dung sweepers - pretty much all kinds of trades and lifestyles.

That doesn't change the widely held public perception that every elf will nick your purse as soon as look at you. Elves don't consider themselves to be career criminals by any means, but everyone else - and most especially Allanak law enforcement - considers every elf to be a criminal just by virtue of being an elf.

I'll also point out that there have been a number of elven Byn sergeants, and at least one lieutenant. House Kurac has also had elven sergeants. Just because it isn't easy doesn't mean it can't be done.

[HavokBlue]

It can be done, but it doesn't excuse the fact that southern city elves get kind of shafted in the tribe department. It's not reasonable to expect every elven PC to substitute the concept of tribal role play with "I can be a sergeant and boss roundears around for coins if I work hard enough."

[Riev]

If an elf is tribeless, but still has the cultural bend to steal, pay less for everything, get in underneath the skin of every 'roundear' they meet.... Wouldn't that lend itself more to "Alright. Well. You don't have a family or a tribe to call your own. You ARE your tribe, and you are thus completely self-centered and arrogant. You are also an elf. Instead of stealing, you are going to be a mercenary, and fuck over -every- roundear trying to make a decent wage by undercutting his contracts, and then providing shoddy ass goods."


I mean. Thats just one idea. Not every elf is "STEALING" everything not nailed to the floor (... or ceiling...), but instead just trying to pull a fast one on everyone -not- in their clan. Does there NEED to be an Allanak-proper Celf clan? Clearly not, as they've gotten by before. Though I can understand the feeling of wanting to have tribal roleplay, with a tribally-bent race, without a coded tribe to really get your feet wet, on a 0-karma race. Frankly, the way I see the Militia in Allanak, if there WAS a decently sized elven clan in Allanak proper, I'd have their doors broken, off bending frames, from beating them down just to "see what they are up to" to the point where, shit, they'd -probably- go to the 'rinth for an "easier" time of it!

[HavokBlue]

I'm a little confused by your post. To clarify, are you suggesting that there should or should not be coded a coded tribe option for city-elves as a 0-karma race? Keep in mind that humans are also a 0-karma race, and do not have tribes as one of the focal points of their existence, and have multiple coded tribal options.

I would argue that there does need to be a coded Allanak proper elf clan, or an elf clan open to southern Allanaki elves, because as is plainly obvious, they have very little PC representation in game. Yes, you can play an Allanaki elf and have fun and even be successful, but as people have pointed out before in this thread, you could play a dwarf with the focus to become the best thief in the Known and have pretty much the same experience (maybe with less social stigma but dwarf hate is beside the point).

While in a perfect world, I would like to see a tribe that allows southside elves as blood members, I'm okay with the Jaxa being the only elven clan in Allanak. I know interest in city elves is typically very low from the player base, and staff don't have the time or manpower to devote the effort to creating and running multiple clans for the handful of players who want to play city elves in accordance with their documentation as highly tribe-centric xenophobic thieving skinnies. But if that's the case, southern elves should have the option to join the Jaxa like any other unblooded affiliate (since we're already suspending our notion of elven trust and tribal nature by allowing unblooded Rinthi members in) without needing to jump through three hundred flaming hurdles.

[Patuk]

Frankly, the way I see the Militia in Allanak, if there WAS a decently sized elven clan in Allanak proper, I'd have their doors broken, off bending frames, from beating them down just to "see what they are up to" to the point where, shit, they'd -probably- go to the 'rinth for an "easier" time of it!

See, this is where your train of thought is lead astray. Does the militia want to get rid of elves being thieving old buggers? Certainly. There's just the one problem to that.

There are way, way, way more elves than there are soldiers in Allanak.

The militia can't go out and harass every elven family that gets too big, simply because there's too many of them, and no way to track them all down. This thread is full of people who want to compare elf hate to the kkk, who say that the Arm could easily deal with them, but this all fails to take into account that elves are strong. They are not without teeth, and they very much aren't above making people who mess with their own disappear when they cross the line too far. That elf you beat senseless in the gaj because you thought it'd be funny and there's no pc tribes anyway? Gameworld-wise, chances are high they'll be back with five bigger siblings to repay that beatdown in full next time you're alone at night.

Stop trying to think of elves as weak or underprivileged. No, they won't ever have high social status. No, elves aren't going to get the upper hand on city humanity at large at all. But this doesn't mean they're some kind of chew toy out there. Not by a long shot.

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

Yep, which has always been a peeve of mine. No, you don't treat the elf with respect. No, you don't give him great prices or share information with him. Yeh, you avoid that one elf you don't like a lot. Yes, you talk absolutely dirty about that elf behind his back. Yeh, you sneer at him to his face whenever the chance comes along.

But when it comes to treating them like dung under your heel, nah, you don't do that. You treat him like dung, sure, but you don't put your heel on it unless you are connected, because a whole lot of other dungs are going to come oozing out and drown your stupid ass. You don't have to like elves, but you have to accept that they are citizens, just like Gemmers are, and you have to draw a line at completely making an public environment toxic to them.

In the case of Gemmers, you do it because they are scary and the Highlord says so. In the case of the elves, it's because sooner or later you're on a street by yourself, and skinnies like dark streets and they carry sharp shit ...

[Jherlen]

See, this is where your train of thought is lead astray. Does the militia want to get rid of elves being thieving old buggers? Certainly. There's just the one problem to that.

There are way, way, way more elves than there are soldiers in Allanak.

The problem is that nearly all those elves are virtual. There are few southside elven NPCs, and none in areas that suggest a particular street or block is primarily elven, like you see in Tuluk. I think one of two things needs to happen: either bring the coded, tangible game in line with the "lots of elves" virtual reality, or revise the reality to say there are less elves. A good compromise might say there aren't all that many elves in the city proper, but quite a few in the Labyrinth.

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

I agree - staff, are most Allanaki elves Northside? If not, then yes, we need more elven NPCs southside.

[Quirk]

My last Byn character spotted an elf starting up on a human, that conflict turned to brawling.

Her (and every other Byn in the place) stood up from the bar / table and proceed to beat that elf senseless, like it was the most natural thing in the world. Everyone sat back down after the necker was sent packing, had some drinks (paid for by a PC merchant who enjoyed the show) and in general even the people who had disagreements within the group were getting along much better after bonding over a hate crime.

It reminded me of a documentary on the KKK, where people from all walks who would never normally associate with each other become 'brothers in arms' in what they believe to be an eternal race war. These people, everyone from enlisted soldiers to doctors to burger flippers would show up to support members of their own chapter or make a scene at an opposing groups event, with just a text or a phone call.

This is kind of the core of the problem. It's the identical problem to a small-time group of hunters getting accorded the same kind of respect as a Merchant House because from a PC perspective they're better represented.

Virtually, the place you were in was probably packed with elves. For all you knew, there were a bunch from the same tribe as the elf starting shit who could've gone running and brought a few dozen more elves to the party. You were prospectively not starting some kind of beatdown, but a full-on scrap. But - in PC terms - there are no coded clans, and few PC elves. People don't need to think twice before they stand up and join the beating.

The KKK could get away with their heinous shit in rural areas, on a people beaten down from slavery. Drop them into an urban environment peopled by criminal and semi-criminal groups with strong family ties (compare the 'Ndrangheta http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%27Ndrangheta) and they'd rapidly be destroyed utterly.

And sure, the weakness of elves is that elven tribes don't trust each other, don't work together. If they did, they'd be a force in the city greater than any three Noble Houses combined. What this actually looks like is not a uniform powerlessness, but moderately-sized powerful groups at loggerheads with each other. The city isn't in thrall to the Elven Mafia because there are a hundred competing Mafias, each at war with all the others; they are ruled by humans through the old principle of divide and conquer. None of them individually are a match for the militia. But, if you're Amos the Grebber, this isn't a great consolation to you. Humanity isn't going to rally round to help you if you piss off one of those Mafias, particularly through stupidity, 'cos Tek don't care about you.

This isn't "Tuluki elf-loving". This is Nakkis ignoring the gritty, scary virtual elves.

[Quirk]

However, the elven racial documentation states pretty clearly that their cultural bent towards thievery encompasses an extremely wide range of activities. So no, not every single elf in Allanak is running around picking every single pocket at every opportunity. There are elven mercenaries, traders, crafters, assassins, physicians, dung sweepers - pretty much all kinds of trades and lifestyles.

That doesn't change the widely held public perception that every elf will nick your purse as soon as look at you. Elves don't consider themselves to be career criminals by any means, but everyone else - and most especially Allanak law enforcement - considers every elf to be a criminal just by virtue of being an elf.

This is where more thought is required.

These elven mercenaries, traders, crafters, etc are all making a living. At some point, someone human is exchanging money for elven services without being flagrantly swindled. Otherwise, we're trivially back to the case of 135,000 moochers on the population - it doesn't matter if some of them aren't stealing money directly if they only trade with elves who do, because that just means the elves who do have to steal enough to make up for them.

Clearly then there's some framework which enables trade. Whatever the general feeling is toward elves, it's not strong enough to prevent them being widely traded with or employed by humans. This is where I hesitate over the word "criminal", because humans clearly are going to elven tailors and elven watersellers and elven crafters, and not shunning them, even in the visible NPC world. I'd prefer the word "dishonest". In any case, there must exist conditions in which humans feel that trading with or employing an elf is not simply madness.

Now, my suggestion would be that much of the reason for this lies in tribal mechanisms, and that elven tribes are sufficiently aware of their own interests that it is possible to maintain long-term business relationships with them, that the shops they run and the services they provide see plenty of repeat customers. A tribe member compromising a steady revenue stream for a moment of gratification should be dealt with harshly. This also means that tribes can play useful roles as part of the city, and explains the lack of elven genocide.