Tuluk's Shadow Artists: Now With More Flavor

[janeshephard]

OK.

Let's move ahead with it being written in Cavilish. You still have a GMH that has the ability to hand out contracts to killers -- some of them being very good. I agree with Palomar it's not suitable.

Going back to the idea of a Templar doing this and always accepting contracts; Templars can fall back on "tradition." That the most important thing in Tuluk, after the Sun King, is the culture. Therefore, as long as a contract does not clearly intervene in Tuluki interests, the contract must be accepted and assigned.

[Jherlen]

OK.

Let's move ahead with it being written in Cavilish. You still have a GMH that has the ability to hand out contracts to killers -- some of them being very good. I agree with Palomar it's not suitable.

I'm sure whatever language things are written in, there'd be more required to forge a contract than just a piece of paper. Special seals, special paper, multiple copies kept in separate places, and so on. There's also the fact that the brokers themselves would realize fairly quickly it wasn't a licensed hit. Forgery wouldn't be impossible, but it doesn't need to be impossible, just really really hard. And it's easy to make it that hard.

Going back to the idea of a Templar doing this and always accepting contracts; Templars can fall back on "tradition." That the most important thing in Tuluk, after the Sun King, is the culture. Therefore, as long as a contract does not clearly intervene in Tuluki interests, the contract must be accepted and assigned.

That's where we disagree fundamentally. You're saying all templars should put "Tuluki" interests ahead of everything, I'm saying templars should put their own interests ahead, or at least side-by-side, while paying lip service to Tuluki tradition and culture. There is no reason Tuluki templars should not be every bit as corrupt and self-serving as Allanaki templars. Tuluki templars have just gotten better about institutionalizing and glossing over their corruption by spouting high ideals and propaganda to the people. Go back to page 3 or 4 where somebody approaches a templar about assassinating the templar's own aide or partisan, who won't be easy to replace. Culture be damned, there is no reason why that templar should be going along with someone who wants to shoot them in their own foot, or why he should stand idly by if he knows another templar is trying. It's a terrible loss for the game to force templars into that position. In a real sense templars are the conflict-drivers and focus points for much of the city. They shouldn't be straightjacketed into being fair in their dealings just to make documentation work.

[janeshephard]

I was the person who argued that Templars would be corrupt. That corruption can stop at tradition. And if he is your patron and you get a contract request for him? YOU HAVE TO accept the contract and make sure its sent up to the best to show you are sticking by the traditions.

It's like the local police in a small town. If the feds show up with a warrant for someone, they can't cover it up anymore. At some stage they have to do their job properly or they'll be held accountable.

[Jherlen]

I was the person who argued that Templars would be corrupt. That corruption can stop at tradition.
It's like the local police in a small town. If the feds show up with a warrant for someone, they can't cover it up anymore. At some stage they have to do their job properly or they'll be held accountable.

I think culture, tradition, custom and all that should play a backseat role to ambition, selfishness, and greed. That sounds more Zalanthan to me. Tuluki templars can make public noise about upholding tradition how they want; in reality the traditions are whatever they say they are, and can be changed at any time, and anyone who says differently can be disappeared. No high-minded ideals or abstract traditions should stop corruption; the only thing stopping corruption should be what a templar thinks he can get away with without making it obvious and without somebody smacking him down.

The local police in a small town are accountable to the feds because the feds are a higher law. To a templar, the only higher law is Muk Utep and senior templars, because they can kill lower templars if they don't walk the line. And Muk and the senior templars do not and should not have a single fuck to give about how assassin contracts are handled as long as the templarate maintains order.

[Ouroboros]

I'm not sure how reading and writing came into this being a requirement for a Shadow Broker, when commoner merchants have kept track of complex orders for years on end relying on "memory" alone. Meaning the record-keeping taking place OOC, reports sent in if required, and handled as a keen IC memory. The city itself has a number of virtual scribes, unaffiliated to Chosen Houses, who keep records and write missives for the Faithful. The sending of reports, which would be required anyway, could be seen as dictation to a slave scribe of the city for the purpose of record-keeping.

However, given this would be a sponsored role for essentially a civic servant, entrusted with the fair overseeing of literally life and death, I'm fairly certain they could also be granted R/W in Sirihish or any other language, all in the interest of better serving the city. Much like literate slaves are entrusted with such knowledge in order to assist the administration of the city. Whether knowing to read and write is illegal for a commoner doesn't seem that big an issue, when discussing a system that essentially legalizes most every criminal activity. A Shadow Broker would already be offered an extreme measure of trust by the government, simply in performing their duties faithfully and with discretion. Tacking on R/W to that trust and obligation doesn't seem a stretch.

All this assuming written records should be kept in the first place, given the sensitive nature of the contracts. Which I'm not quite sold on personally.

[Jherlen]

Yeah, Ouro - I could see it both ways. Written records would be handy, but aren't essential. I had brainstormed up the idea of shadow artists getting a written, sealed note to leave at the scene of the crime for the militia to find, noting the hit was "legal" in such cases when public notice was asked for or unavoidable. But you certainly wouldn't need that.

[Dalmeth]

One thing I know for certain, the inability to refuse contracts removes any professionalism from this system.

Regardless of what a templar may think, I may know I can't complete a certain job in an acceptable manner.

It's an unbearably unpleasant system to work under.

[X-D]

That alone would stop me from considering such a thing.

Who knows what the Templars agenda is...what better way to get rid of a problem give them "An offer they cannot refuse".

[MeTekillot]

GMH members knowing cavilish is technically illegal. But is Amos the Templar really going to bust on in and cause a big ruckus with one of the most powerful entities of the Known because some of their members can read and write?

[Dalmeth]

That alone would stop me from considering such a thing.

Who knows what the Templars agenda is...what better way to get rid of a problem give them "An offer they cannot refuse".

Yah, there's a built-in high turnover rate.  If an apprentice receives a few jobs he can't do, he's essentially ejected from the system because his skills have a random chance of success.

[flurry]

Whew! Why did I wait for this to be 16 pages to respond? I need to get in on the first page so there's not as much to read.

Anyway, I think this has a lot of really cool potential for Tuluk. I look foward to participating in this in-game at some point.

As far as documentation goes, I agree with some previous comments that two of the aspects that would need clear guidelines are pricing (although that wouldn't necessarily be in public docs) and how corruption could affect things. Templars are bound to have conflicts of interest, but I think that's okay as long as their players know the boundaries of what flexibility they have or don't have in roleplaying as brokers to this system.

One of the restrictions listed for shadow artists says that contracts against members of the Legion are only allowed if they "do not cause harm." Maybe this is nitpicking, but I wonder if this should be clarified to specify "physical harm" (unless that's not what is meant). So damaging a Legionaire's reputation may be acceptable but not breaking their arm.

I'm hoping that when this is in place, there would be a contacts sought in a variety of types at a range of difficulties. It seems like that's what this is going for, which I think would be a lot of fun.

[Patuk]

If you work for the templarate, not being able to refuse is intrinsic. The arm of the dragon and the sun legions are no different in that regard, so being a shadow artist is merely yet another extension of the templarate's will.

[Ouroboros]

If you work for the templarate, not being able to refuse is intrinsic. The arm of the dragon and the sun legions are no different in that regard, so being a shadow artist is merely yet another extension of the templarate's will.

But you don't, and it isn't. You work for the agent, or your patron, and in a larger sense, the city itself. You provide the city with a clean and efficient way of dealing with otherwise messy situation. You're not an extension of the Templar's will, even if the system remains as proposed with Templars acting as brokers. Which I really hope it doesn't.

[flurry]

For the idea that it should be non-templar shadow brokers, I see two potential problem areas:

If the shadow brokers were not templars, how would they avoid arm-twisting by the templarate? Or the nobility, for that matter?

Also, if there's one sponsored role for a (non-templar) shadow broker, is that character going to be available enough to meet with all the artists and agents for every contract?

[Barzalene]

I hear those concerns, palomar. I had the same ones myself. Literacy could be handled a couple ways: they could write contracts in cavilish (since these are basically business deals anyway), the broker could be a slave, or the broker could be someone from the noble caste.

It's a literacy problem even if its in Cavilish. Reading and writing is outlawed for commoners. This includes commoner merchants. The only person who could legally take up this role is a noble or a templar.

That's incorrect. Commoner merchants are allowed to have RW Cav. I know for a fact this applies to GMH members, but I believe it also applies for more "minor" merchant houses as well. Since Tuluk is already letting other merchants know Cavilish, there's no reason why they couldn't appropriate it for their own needs, if they needed to.

My understanding is that Cavilish is -known- to be a bunch of accounting marks. The sort of thing you'd use to keep track of goods and make marks denoting prices and quantities of goods, not the sort of thing you'd use for fine wording. Not poetry, stories, histories or anything with nuance.  (Sorry for the derail.)

[X-D]

Templar arm twisting is simple to stop...simply document it...there are some things that can be that easy.

Docs: If a Templar or noble is found to be twisting the arm of a shadow broker/witness, muk will oust them powerless into the known, never to enter the walls again.

or

It is known that the citizens will never willingly interact with said Templar ever again...easy way to force storage there.

Point being, it is easy enough to set it up so that these people be sacrosanct in the performance of duties...even to the templarate.
BTW, this still leaves the Templars in charge, as they would need be the final arbitars in any dispute...such disputes would also of course cost the loser...in coin or whatever.

[BadSkeelz]

May be I've just been playing in Allanak too long, but we're worried about Templar corruption? Really? If you want the Templars to behave in the exactly proscribed manner every time, just automate the process of getting a contract. I can't see that being very fun for them.

[Sayyadina]

Question:

May be I've just been playing in Allanak too long, but we're worried about Templar corruption? Really? If you want the Templars to behave in the exactly proscribed manner every time, just automate the process of getting a contract. I can't see that being very fun for them.

Answers:

One thing I know for certain, the inability to refuse contracts removes any professionalism from this system.

Regardless of what a templar may think, I may know I can't complete a certain job in an acceptable manner.

It's an unbearably unpleasant system to work under.

That alone would stop me from considering such a thing.

Who knows what the Templars agenda is...what better way to get rid of a problem give them "An offer they cannot refuse".

[RogueGunslinger]

I'm sorry but they're Templars. They can already get rid of you if they need to, and they don't have to go through some complicated scheme of hiring you to do it. Tempalrs are Deus Ex Machina.


Want to look good and remain somewhat legal to Templars as a sneaky lawbreaker of some sort at the risk of powerful people being able to use you as they will? Use this system.

Want to get around the troubles of being a sneaky lawbreaker who might oust them self or otherwise draw attention they don't want, don't use the system.


I don't get why people think their nobody commoner assassin should be able to refuse anything a Templar tells them to do.

[Outrider]

If "because the templar says so" is all that is needed, then it seems to be something already in play - and no intricate second layer of "you have to" is needed.

But that isn't what this is about.

[janeshephard]

If this moves away from Templars, they have one less task to do.

[RogueGunslinger]

If "because the templar says so" is all that is needed, then it seems to be something already in play - and no intricate second layer of "you have to" is needed.

But that isn't what this is about.

No, it's about people wanting to be Assassins/Thieves/Burglar of the State without even so much a hint that that sort of character should suffer consequences. Isn't everyone worried that they won't play these Shadow Artists because people might know who they are, and be able to influence them?

Well what's the other option? To have a Shadow Artist who is completely autonomous/anonymous and has no fear of anyone above them in station. Basically a regular old Assassin in Allanak, but one who is constantly being fed jobs by the Templarate/nobles/merchants... And who doens't have to worry about putting their name otu there and getting caught.

Well GEE that does sound fun... But it also sounds like Armageddon Easy-mode.

[Ouroboros]

If the shadow brokers were not templars, how would they avoid arm-twisting by the templarate? Or the nobility, for that matter?

As X-D said, that's simply a matter of documentation. Tuluk is built on traditions and protocol, and both Chosen and Faithful would more than likely respect the position a Shadow Broker is in. Because they'd know its cuts both ways if nothing else, meaning if they try to strong-arm a Broker, someone else could also try to strong-arm one against them. This also works particularly well if Templars aren't exempt from contracts. That way keeping the playing field level is to everyone's advantage. And at the end of a day, every Templar has superiors who would be more than happy to hear of any strong-arming attempts of a Shadow Broker, should one misstep.

Also, if there's one sponsored role for a (non-templar) shadow broker, is that character going to be available enough to meet with all the artists and agents for every contract?

More than likely, yes. Another could always be brought in if there's overwhelming demand, but really it's no different than trying to hunt down the one or two active Templars in any given city. That's something for staff to assess though, and really not something that should give us pause in discussing the idea at this stage of development. Or in other words, if the only issue we have with Shadow Brokers not being Templars is whether it'll be one or two PCs, I think we're on a good path.

[janeshephard]

I'm sorry but they're Templars. They can already get rid of you if they need to, and they don't have to go through some complicated scheme of hiring you to do it. Tempalrs are Deus Ex Machina.

It's always preferable in Tuluk to not have attention drawn to you when it comes to violent acts. It's always preferable for a Templar to put out a contract on you than execute you (although they will certainly do that as well).

Want to look good and remain somewhat legal to Templars as a sneaky lawbreaker of some sort at the risk of powerful people being able to use you as they will? Use this system.

Want to get around the troubles of being a sneaky lawbreaker who might oust them self or otherwise draw attention they don't want, don't use the system.

Which is why I think straight up execution for repeat offenders, even if it's a petty crime, should go into the Tuluki law books. No more being nice and registering the offender. Ignorance is no excuse, unless we clearly have a new player who didn't know.

Not registering should be the same as committing treason. Unless the murder is accidental, if you don't have your paperwork in order you should join your victim. That will bring inline the oppression of Tuluk, and make the registering laws relevant. Finally, this should be done publicly or frankly, no one will care.

[BleakOne]

I always figured whenever a Templar told you to do something or 'offered' a job, it was basically a 'you cannot refuse' issue anyway. I mean... who tells the agents of a bad-tempered physical god "No"?