Climbing

[Cabooze]

it sort of irks me that only specific guilds/subguilds have the ability to climb (*get better at climbing). Why not allow all guilds to climb*, but they simply don't reach as high of a skill level as others? Let's say a merchant/warrior/hunter as compared to a subguild that has climbing specifically listed as one of their perks. The merchant would likely only be able to reach journeyman of climbing whilst the subguild which has the specific perk can possible reach master? It follows the concept of if someone does something for long enough, they will eventually pick up the skill. It makes sense, at least.

[hyzhenhok]

I agree. Climbing should be like ride: allow most guilds to become passable at it, especially if they properly equip themselves.

[Jherlen]

Thirded!

[RogueGunslinger]

I disagree. Climb is awesome. Not everyone should get to be awesome.

There's only a few instances where climbing is useful. Want to do those things? Grab a subguild/guild that has it.

[Cabooze]

I disagree. Climb is awesome. Not everyone should get to be awesome.

There's only a few instances where climbing is useful. Want to do those things? Grab a subguild/guild that has it.

To be fair, what you're saying is relevant to "You are not allowed to learn from your mistakes". Let's say someone's constantly trying to train themselves how to climb, no matter of their guild/subguild, they should at least be able to have some moderate skill at it. Being able to climb at least one room without slipping twenty times or falling when they try to climb down off an edge no matter what 9 times out of 10.

Riding is also awesome, so should not everyone get to be awesome? There's also few instances where riding is useful, yet everyone has a chance to be moderately acceptable at riding no matter what. Why not climbing, too?

Not trying to attack you or anything, just debating and making an argument for my point.

[bcw81]

I disagree. Climb is awesome. Not everyone should get to be awesome.

There's only a few instances where climbing is useful. Want to do those things? Grab a subguild/guild that has it.

To be fair, what you're saying is relevant to "You are not allowed to learn from your mistakes". Let's say someone's constantly trying to train themselves how to climb, no matter of their guild/subguild, they should at least be able to have some moderate skill at it. Being able to climb at least one room without slipping twenty times or falling when they try to climb down off an edge no matter what 9 times out of 10.

Riding is also awesome, so should not everyone get to be awesome? There's also few instances where riding is useful, yet everyone has a chance to be moderately acceptable at riding no matter what. Why not climbing, too?

Not trying to attack you or anything, just debating and making an argument for my point.

That argument would make more sense if this game wasn't class based, where you could feasibly 'learn' every skill in real life and make yourself better at them, but can't in the game because that's not how a class system works.

That said, I really do wish all guilds had some level of climb.

[MeTekillot]

free climb, free direction sense

[RogueGunslinger]

I disagree. Climb is awesome. Not everyone should get to be awesome.

There's only a few instances where climbing is useful. Want to do those things? Grab a subguild/guild that has it.

To be fair, what you're saying is relevant to "You are not allowed to learn from your mistakes". Let's say someone's constantly trying to train themselves how to climb, no matter of their guild/subguild, they should at least be able to have some moderate skill at it. Being able to climb at least one room without slipping twenty times or falling when they try to climb down off an edge no matter what 9 times out of 10.

Riding is also awesome, so should not everyone get to be awesome? There's also few instances where riding is useful, yet everyone has a chance to be moderately acceptable at riding no matter what. Why not climbing, too?

Not trying to attack you or anything, just debating and making an argument for my point.

Riding is indeed awesome. Not everyone gets to ride though, actually, just ask an elf. I'd love for Arm to have a elder scrolls style skill system where any skill can be leveled through use. It's never going to happen though. So we deal with a class system, and in that sort of system I like for certain things to give that class its flavor. Climbing and kicking and foraging for food shouldn't be for everyone, even though realistically anyone should be able to learn those skills.

[hyzhenhok]

I disagree. Climb is awesome. Not everyone should get to be awesome.

There's only a few instances where climbing is useful. Want to do those things? Grab a subguild/guild that has it.

IMO climb is too awesome because there are a lot of little places where it's really, really convenient to be able to pass a single, not very difficult climb check or two. And really annoying if you or someone in your group doesn't have climb.

It'd be nice if everyone could pass those circumstances with the correct preparation (practice + equipment). Leave difficult checks or the longest climbs out of reach for those people, of course. I'm talking a cap of apprentice or something. Just put it on my list, like skinning and ride, even though I'm never going to be good at it.

Edit: Usually you can pass the checks I'm talking about untrained anyway. It just takes dozens of attempts. This is a quality of life thing, not about making the parts of the world exclusive to people good at climbing more available.

[Cabooze]

free climb, free direction sense

Free climb and direction sense, 2013!!

I disagree. Climb is awesome. Not everyone should get to be awesome.

There's only a few instances where climbing is useful. Want to do those things? Grab a subguild/guild that has it.

To be fair, what you're saying is relevant to "You are not allowed to learn from your mistakes". Let's say someone's constantly trying to train themselves how to climb, no matter of their guild/subguild, they should at least be able to have some moderate skill at it. Being able to climb at least one room without slipping twenty times or falling when they try to climb down off an edge no matter what 9 times out of 10.

Riding is also awesome, so should not everyone get to be awesome? There's also few instances where riding is useful, yet everyone has a chance to be moderately acceptable at riding no matter what. Why not climbing, too?

Not trying to attack you or anything, just debating and making an argument for my point.

Riding is indeed awesome. Not everyone gets to ride though, actually, just ask an elf. I'd love for Arm to have a elder scrolls style skill system where any skill can be leveled through use. It's never going to happen though. So we deal with a class system, and in that sort of system I like for certain things to give that class its flavor. Climbing and kicking and foraging for food shouldn't be for everyone, even though realistically anyone should be able to learn those skills.

You have a real good point.. Though with the elves, they technically CAN ride but I'd think they're likely to get a knife in the back from one of their own or taken aside for an OOC speaking to because the docs specifically state that they'd much rather walk with their own two feet (in a matter of words)

I disagree. Climb is awesome. Not everyone should get to be awesome.

There's only a few instances where climbing is useful. Want to do those things? Grab a subguild/guild that has it.

IMO climb is too awesome because there are a lot of little places where it's really, really convenient to be able to pass a single, not very difficult climb check or two. And really annoying if you or someone in your group doesn't have climb.

It'd be nice if everyone could pass those circumstances with the correct preparation (practice + equipment). Leave difficult checks or the longest climbs out of reach for those people, of course. I'm talking a cap of apprentice or something. Just put it on my list, like skinning and ride, even though I'm never going to be good at it.

+1

[slvrmoontiger]

Saying anyone should be allowed to climb if they work on it is like saying.. Gee my PC has sucky strength but he/she is constantly lugging around stuff that's goes beyond manageable, so this should build muscles and strength. I doubt either will happen.

[Cabooze]

Saying anyone should be allowed to climb if they work on it is like saying.. Gee my PC has sucky strength but he/she is constantly lugging around stuff that's goes beyond manageable, so this should build muscles and strength. I doubt either will happen.

You're talking about stats that are rolled on character creation, though. Those stats change throughout character life.

[slvrmoontiger]

Saying anyone should be allowed to climb if they work on it is like saying.. Gee my PC has sucky strength but he/she is constantly lugging around stuff that's goes beyond manageable, so this should build muscles and strength. I doubt either will happen.

You're talking about stats that are rolled on character creation, though. Those stats change throughout character life.

Its still literally the same thing. You're building muscle lugging around heavy stuff so that should make improvements over a month or half a month in your conditioning. Not after a few years.

[slvrmoontiger]

Oh and furthermore you're talking about guild/subguild that you chose. Its up to you what you choose. Rolls are random. If you choose not to pick what you want that's you're fault in the beginning not left to random chance.

[Cabooze]

Saying anyone should be allowed to climb if they work on it is like saying.. Gee my PC has sucky strength but he/she is constantly lugging around stuff that's goes beyond manageable, so this should build muscles and strength. I doubt either will happen.

You're talking about stats that are rolled on character creation, though. Those stats change throughout character life.

Its still literally the same thing. You're building muscle lugging around heavy stuff so that should make improvements over a month or half a month in your conditioning. Not after a few years.

I see where you're coming from, but this is more based around a skill that I feel should be a little less limited as to whom can eventually get better at it.

I understand the whole classing concept, but I truly wish that climb could be along side riding and skinning and shield use as far as skills that mostly everyone can figure out.

[slvrmoontiger]

Saying anyone should be allowed to climb if they work on it is like saying.. Gee my PC has sucky strength but he/she is constantly lugging around stuff that's goes beyond manageable, so this should build muscles and strength. I doubt either will happen.

You're talking about stats that are rolled on character creation, though. Those stats change throughout character life.

Its still literally the same thing. You're building muscle lugging around heavy stuff so that should make improvements over a month or half a month in your conditioning. Not after a few years.

I see where you're coming from, but this is more based around a skill that I feel should be a little less limited as to whom can eventually get better at it.

I understand the whole classing concept, but I truly wish that climb could be along side riding and skinning and shield use as far as skills that mostly everyone can figure out.

Well I need to stop you right there. To the best of my knowledge riding, shield use, and languages are the only ones that fit that description. There are many guild/subguild combinations that never improve at skinning.

[Lizzie]

Climbing is something that "people who would normally have an interest in climbing" would do. If you are building your character around the concept of "people who would normally have an interest in climbing," then there are both guilds AND subguilds devoted to such activities. You get two chances to include the skill in your skills list, per character.

If I pick a character based on "people who are able to break into apartments" and combine it with "people who can be really great with archery," then I need to not complain that my character can't master-craft a dress.

The same thing goes for climbing. Most people, in real life and in fantasy, have no need to climb things - except maybe short people onto barstools, or apartment dwellers onto tables to reach the top shelf of the bookcase. Climbing is a specialty thing. In real life, I can climb a path - but I can't scale a mountain or cliff. Climbing is a useable skill to people who are known to have a use for it. Such as - sneaky people who might have need to get onto rooftops - and desert elves who would more likely climb a cliff face to get to the other side of the mountain, than ride around it comfortably on a mount.

Furthermore, EVERYONE can climb. It isn't a skill that can improve much in most guilds/subguilds, but it is a skill that everyone can succeed at, eventually. So, it already is possible for everyone to try, and succeed. The people who get the coded skill on their skills list, are the people who make sense to have the skill.

[Rogerthat]

Climbing is something that "people who would normally have an interest in climbing" would do. If you are building your character around the concept of "people who would normally have an interest in climbing," then there are both guilds AND subguilds devoted to such activities. You get two chances to include the skill in your skills list, per character.

If I pick a character based on "people who are able to break into apartments" and combine it with "people who can be really great with archery," then I need to not complain that my character can't master-craft a dress.

The same thing goes for climbing. Most people, in real life and in fantasy, have no need to climb things - except maybe short people onto barstools, or apartment dwellers onto tables to reach the top shelf of the bookcase. Climbing is a specialty thing. In real life, I can climb a path - but I can't scale a mountain or cliff. Climbing is a useable skill to people who are known to have a use for it. Such as - sneaky people who might have need to get onto rooftops - and desert elves who would more likely climb a cliff face to get to the other side of the mountain, than ride around it comfortably on a mount.

Furthermore, EVERYONE can climb. It isn't a skill that can improve much in most guilds/subguilds, but it is a skill that everyone can succeed at, eventually. So, it already is possible for everyone to try, and succeed. The people who get the coded skill on their skills list, are the people who make sense to have the skill.

FACT +1.

[Kryos]

Stuff

Unlike the previous poster, I find gaping flaws in nearly everything you've said.  Its not uncommon or hidden knowledge that subguild skills are always inferior to main guild skills, and the substantial gaps in ability have big game  play impact.

"Wanting to climb and do so until you succeed" is insanity, and a dead character.  As for the need to climb?  Zalanaths is *plastered* with need to climb reasons.  In and out of cities.  

It may be debated to be a 'speciality' thing, but it by no means some elaborate or secretive process that any Amos from a farm can't learn to do, and by measure of their attributes and size, to a decent degree depending on them.

That being said, while I think everyone should be able to learn to climb a room or two at most, I understand from gameplay perspective why higher end ability to climb should be restricted to certain people.

As for the direction sense sub-thread that's going on:  no.  Not start with, but perhaps be able to branch to a low degree that improves with *ig* years you spent doing it.  As, the selection of skills you start with does represent what you've spent the last 13-50+ years working on before you unvirtualized.  reasonable to expect another 13-20 years before you could hope to reach the potential of someone who has devoted similar investment.

[Wastrel]

I disagree. Climb is awesome. Not everyone should get to be awesome.

There's only a few instances where climbing is useful. Want to do those things? Grab a subguild/guild that has it.

Siding with RGS

[slvrmoontiger]

Stuff

Unlike the previous poster, I find gaping flaws in nearly everything you've said.  Its not uncommon or hidden knowledge that subguild skills are always inferior to main guild skills, and the substantial gaps in ability have big game  play impact.

"Wanting to climb and do so until you succeed" is insanity, and a dead character.  As for the need to climb?  Zalanaths is *plastered* with need to climb reasons.  In and out of cities.  

It may be debated to be a 'speciality' thing, but it by no means some elaborate or secretive process that any Amos from a farm can't learn to do, and by measure of their attributes and size, to a decent degree depending on them.

That being said, while I think everyone should be able to learn to climb a room or two at most, I understand from gameplay perspective why higher end ability to climb should be restricted to certain people.

As for the direction sense sub-thread that's going on:  no.  Not start with, but perhaps be able to branch to a low degree that improves with *ig* years you spent doing it.  As, the selection of skills you start with does represent what you've spent the last 13-50+ years working on before you unvirtualized.  reasonable to expect another 13-20 years before you could hope to reach the potential of someone who has devoted similar investment.

You see I disagree with this. What you're saying and everyone else that wants it to be a learn based skill goes completely outside what Armageddon is about. If you want to turn climb into this then someone is going to come alone that chooses say Ranger/Armorcrafter for their PC's guild/subguild. That PC is happy about hunting things and making armor until one day....

>think Wow I want to learn how to break into apartments

After a bit of walking....

tell shifty sneaky elf I'd like to buy a lock picking kit please.
The sale occurs.

Month... Perhaps years pass...

pick lock e
You successfully pick the lock to a super incredibly rich apartment.
e
You see around you a bunch of gemstones, silk, and spice.
>think It was such a great idea to learn how to break into apartments.

There has to be a balance somewhere people!!!

[MeTekillot]

No there doesn't. If there had to be balance, half-giants, sorcerers, and magickers would not exist.

[slvrmoontiger]

No there doesn't. If there had to be balance, half-giants, sorcerers, and magickers would not exist.

But wouldn't turning things into anyone can learn anything at any time they wish be putting Armageddon in the same realm as most of the other MUDs out there?

[Malken]

It's a class-based mud, so you have to learn to live with it.

It makes as much sense as my warrior not being able to spot that guy who's hiding with him in his closet-sized apartment.

C'est la vie.

[HavokBlue]

Not that it would ever happen, but it would be kind of neat if all rooms that required climb checks had different ratings so, for example, everyone could get at least apprentice climb so they can get out of that 10 foot deep hole or onto that one-story roof, but no matter how hard they try, will never be able to make it up the shieldwall because it requires at least advanced climb.

Would also be a bit more realistic. I can take a random person and throw them on a 5.0 climbing wall and they might struggle with it for a few minutes but anybody who is even remotely physically fit can do it without falling and breaking a leg, but unless they practice and work at it, they will never be able to top out a 5.12.

edit: As it stands, it's kind of silly that Amos the Fat Merchant will fail his climb check 29 times out of 30, but he can also get obscenely lucky and scale the shield wall if the dice are in his favor.