The Epic of...(insert) A tale of heroes.

[Spiderman]

This is not a topic about sexism or elves on boats, it's about legacy.  In all of these years, numerous pcs have come and gone, made their mark and left a lasting impression, but the culture is pervasive to not talk too much IC about past events, just to make sure something isn't going to be impacted IC.  But all cultures have celebrities and heroic figures, Zalanthas should be no different.  So why aren't there children named after these figures of old.  Why aren't there dozens of dwarves making the name Thrain as famous as Amos?  At what point do epic tales that have been played out enter the popular, tavern dwelling lexicon?  Without writing, oral tradition is all the more important, but it seems like players are timid about spreading tales that, although they know as players, they believe they might not know IC.  Big events, like the Copper Wars or securing Luir's from the mantis?  How have VNPCs not spread out the names of heroes and their tales.  Is it an IC or OOC thing that keeps the legacy tales of Zalanthas from entering into the game more commonly?  Who and what merits the tales of being a Conan, Odysseus or Gilgamesh?  If it's past a year and there were vnpcs around, what's okay to use as an urban legend, tall tale or myth?

[MeTekillot]

GAGE GRITSHAW

[Delirium]

Elithan.

Samos.

Sujaal.

Veddi.

There are so many of legend that for one reason or other, are more shrouded in mystery or would be spoken of only in whispers.

[Vwest]

It's an issue of perception, I think.

One man's hero is another man's villain, so you would need a different legend in every major area for every event and person involved, that would be a lot of documents to create and maintain. If there isn't at least some minor documentation to guide it, that kind of thing could get out of hand and IC secrets could slip out that shouldn't. Then there is the issue of people feeling left out if one person gets a 'supported' legend and another doesn't when they were both there at the time, I can hear the cries of favor being paid to some people over others, etc.

If you aren't the next Ironsword, I would not expect to be entered into legend in-game.

I've always made an effort to keep the legacy of other characters alive in-game by telling their stories, not just because it makes for good tavern RP but there is something really special about sitting there and hearing a story about some badass thing one of your past characters did. It feels great knowing my character had enough of an impact to warrant someone telling stories about them and I really enjoy doing the same for others.

I've found when it's a story about a PC and about things that happened in-game, people are more prone to passing word around. I used to pass a story around in taverns and such about a particularly badass Sergeant from the Byn after she died. When I heard someone else telling the same story, embellished a little, in a tavern, I sat there with the smuggest grin on my face.

A little slice of immortality for someones character, just like that.

TLDR: If you want in-game stories and legends, get out there and witness stuff and tell people about it. Someone might end up telling you your own story someday.

[LauraMars]

I like the idea of players naming their characters after famous pcs of the past.  I named a character after Sathis Valika once.

[BleakOne]

Elithan.

Samos.

Sujaal.

Veddi.

There are so many of legend that for one reason or other, are more shrouded in mystery or would be spoken of only in whispers.

I think the OP means ICly legend, and I've never heard any of those mentioned IC as legendary, although I do know of one or two of them OOCly.

Thrain Ironsword seems rather legendary ICly, so do a few other characters I can't quite remember right now. A sole-survivng Blue Robe of a massive battle was one, ect.

[Erythil]

I think it's the problem of OOC secrecy, mainly.  I've seen players talk about heroes of old attached to various institutions -- these heroes and very noteworthy characters exist -- but the lack of written records IG generally makes this hard for people to know about unless they were actually playing when those characters were around.  People die too fast to play the part ICly of the old man telling the young generation about who was awesome way back when.

[musashi]

Yeah I think a big part of it is that of those who knew you, half die. Half store. None really survive to pass the story along generations.

[Eurynomos]

I could be wrong, but name files are incredibly specific as well so you can't make multiple "Famous Legend of the Hidden Temple" PC's. You could add it as a keyword though.

[Harmless]

Krath dammit... I hate to say it, but..

we need more bards.

[Morrolan]

More bards, and more characters who last for IG years.

And a tendency for our characters to be less self-involved.

[Harmless]

Self-involved? Do you mean, in small social circles?

[Barzalene]

It would be nice too if bards made more use of history. Publicly. Like stories instead of songs and poems, or songs and poems about historical figures  and events that get passed down. And told. At the bardic events. At shows. At parties. At performances.

[hyzhenhok]

Right now it kind of feels like it's an IC/OOC grey area whether it's OK to have new PCs know about older PCs that we think should be famous, but our new PCs haven't heard talked about. It'd be cool if we could have some PCs picked out as commonly-known legends, with vague details of who they were and what they did put up somewhere so they could become commonly known. They would be important parts of bardic repertoire (but true bards would still need to find and create legends of their own), and people could actually have IC discussions about these long dead PCs, which would help their legends grow further organically.

[bcw81]

Thrain wouldn't really be considered a legend inside of Allanak (among the general populace), rather he would probably be reviled. That and though I don't know his story in its entirety, I doubt that the rest of the world would really care about him.

I generally assume all those awesome names I hear on the GDB are names of badasses who stood against authority, and therefor their respective god-kings would probably be averse to people telling their tales in a manner regarding them as legends of old.

That said though, turn and look at the street names. Most of them were named after heroes of old who -would- probably still be spoken about. Melenth's Circle? Who was Melenth? Yanisa's Way? Who was Yanisa? (Those are actual questions, I have no idea who they were. Probably best not to answer on the GDB though.)

[James de Monet]

Actually, I believe there is a certain beggar who name-drops a famous PC.  And, as BCW said, street names, not to mention statues, friezes, murals, and other bits of artwork in game that reference real, legendary PCs.

[Fredd]

Right now it kind of feels like it's an IC/OOC grey area whether it's OK to have new PCs know about older PCs that we think should be famous, but our new PCs haven't heard talked about. It'd be cool if we could have some PCs picked out as commonly-known legends, with vague details of who they were and what they did put up somewhere so they could become commonly known. They would be important parts of bardic repertoire (but true bards would still need to find and create legends of their own), and people could actually have IC discussions about these long dead PCs, which would help their legends grow further organically.

This! It also adds more incentive to strive towards that badassery.

[Eurynomos]

Something to consider in this line of thinking is the entire common populace of both Tuluk and Allanak are illiterate.

Oral tradition is strong amongst the tribes, and to some extent common folk in cities. But they don't have a very long memory. This shows both in their inability to overcome the oppressive culture designed to keep them down, and remember any 'stand out figures' in the annals of history. Nobles and Templars may actually have a pretty decent idea about these sorts of things. But Commoners for the most part, likely wouldn't. They're too focused on minding their own business and getting food/water on the table/in their bellies to recall any 'heroes'.

Who's Samos? Does he get the grubs on the table and go hunting for them, or do I? And so on. While there have certainly been 'popular characters', have they really done anything deserving the attention of the virtual populace? If so -- Were they considered heroes? Interesting food for thought, at least. Nom nom nom.

[Eurynomos]

I also moderated a post that was 'pooping' on certain people. Please, keep your posts related to the topic or it will be locked.

[hyzhenhok]

I'm not sure what literacy has to do with it. The Brothers Grimm were writing down stories that had been passed down and developed mostly by the illiterate lower class despite centuries of urbanization. The stories existed well before literacy became commonplace. It's not really a matter of history, either, since it's true there's no way many facts if any would be preserved orally over time. Probably all of the details would be lost, but some famous people from the past would remain.

Common folk should have a standard set of commonly known stories and legends, popular bardic tales, etc, even if the legends are carefully selected by the templarate with the details trimmed and presented a certain way, with specific interpretations being enforced in public. There would also be popular stories about completely fictional folk, and the populace wouldn't really know the difference between those and the real legends.

So I guess my idea is that maybe for each city state it'd be nice if we have a canon of popular stories with just a few details that tend to be consistent for each as the story is told over and over again. Some of those popular stories could be about famous heroes of the past that actually existed, and were PCs, but they don't all have to be. Sometimes Tuluk and Allanak may popularly have stories about the same people, but the canon of the story is completely different because of Templarate influence.

[Patuk]

I'm not sure what literacy has to do with it. The Brothers Grimm were writing down stories that had been passed down and developed mostly by the illiterate lower class despite centuries of urbanization. The stories existed well before literacy became commonplace. It's not really a matter of history, either, since it's true there's no way many facts if any would be preserved orally over time. Probably all of the details would be lost, but some famous people from the past would remain.

Common folk should have a standard set of commonly known stories and legends, popular bardic tales, etc, even if the legends are carefully selected by the templarate with the details trimmed and presented a certain way, with specific interpretations being enforced in public. There would also be popular stories about completely fictional folk, and the populace wouldn't really know the difference between those and the real legends.

So I guess my idea is that maybe for each city state it'd be nice if we have a canon of popular stories with just a few details that tend to be consistent for each as the story is told over and over again. Some of those popular stories could be about famous heroes of the past that actually existed, and were PCs, but they don't all have to be. Sometimes Tuluk and Allanak may popularly have stories about the same people, but the canon of the story is completely different because of Templarate influence.

I like this post, and that is rare for me to say.

Furthermore.. If you look at medieval culture, which is similar in its rate of literacy, its bards and minstrels were historians more than anything. I've read a number of medieval tales, and they all begin by the narrator insisting to his audience that this story really happened and that it's not a lie. Yes, commoners have harsh lives, and don't have the times to create a real historical tradition. No, this doesn't means there won't be entertainers who go around recording history, or what passes for it.

[palomar]

There are some NPCs named after famous Templar PCs of the past.

That said though, turn and look at the street names. Most of them were named after heroes of old who -would- probably still be spoken about. Melenth's Circle? Who was Melenth? Yanisa's Way? Who was Yanisa? (Those are actual questions, I have no idea who they were. Probably best not to answer on the GDB though.)

While not an expert on Allanak history, I believe Meleth's Circle is named after a Red-robe but I'm not sure there ever was a PC/NPC with that name.

Most if not all people in Tuluk who had streets named after them have been PCs. Khann Salarr, Radoon Kadius, Eldor Kadius and so on. For the historically inclined, there are ways to find out more IC. Some stuff below on Ysania, who I believe also was a Kadian.

IIRC:

Ysania was the founder of House Morlaine, also a recognized minor merchant house in Allanak, with an estate in Tuluk during the occupation--but the house was destroyed due to political outfall when Ysania was accused of collusion with the rebels. (Which is why Ysania has a street named after her in Tuluk.)

[Fredd]

I'm not sure what literacy has to do with it. The Brothers Grimm were writing down stories that had been passed down and developed mostly by the illiterate lower class despite centuries of urbanization. The stories existed well before literacy became commonplace. It's not really a matter of history, either, since it's true there's no way many facts if any would be preserved orally over time. Probably all of the details would be lost, but some famous people from the past would remain.

Common folk should have a standard set of commonly known stories and legends, popular bardic tales, etc, even if the legends are carefully selected by the templarate with the details trimmed and presented a certain way, with specific interpretations being enforced in public. There would also be popular stories about completely fictional folk, and the populace wouldn't really know the difference between those and the real legends.

So I guess my idea is that maybe for each city state it'd be nice if we have a canon of popular stories with just a few details that tend to be consistent for each as the story is told over and over again. Some of those popular stories could be about famous heroes of the past that actually existed, and were PCs, but they don't all have to be. Sometimes Tuluk and Allanak may popularly have stories about the same people, but the canon of the story is completely different because of Templarate influence.

I like this post, and that is rare for me to say.

Furthermore.. If you look at medieval culture, which is similar in its rate of literacy, its bards and minstrels were historians more than anything. I've read a number of medieval tales, and they all begin by the narrator insisting to his audience that this story really happened and that it's not a lie. Yes, commoners have harsh lives, and don't have the times to create a real historical tradition. No, this doesn't means there won't be entertainers who go around recording history, or what passes for it.

It's the commoners harsh lives that create the entertainment need. Humans want to distract themselves.

[AreteX]

I don't know if this would apply in Zalanthas, but it does in real life.

Who names their children after really famous people?  People who hate their children :0

Please, name me "Michael Jordan Blah".  Or, "Obama".  Or, "Che".

Do you really want your kid walking around with someone's name and getting everything else associated with it?  Whether it's praise, hate, expectations?  To the common person some of these people might be legendary names, but then again maybe they are just trying to eat and could give a damn about some human who lived 100's of years before them and did something that they barely know about at this point.

How often in real life do we talk about the exploits in history beyond history lessons and classes or perhaps the random holiday?  Is Columbus an everyday association with people in America?  Does everyone always talk about FDR?  Truman?  World War 2 had a nuclear weapon drop on Japan.  I don't think about Truman very often.

And we have the internet and can read/write.  I think its just like anything else the past fades into a blur and eventually people of a new generation just think of the past historical figures as either evil, good, or just a notch on the history of the world.

[ShaLeah]

I don't know if this would apply in Zalanthas, but it does in real life.

Who names their children after really famous people?  People who hate their children :0

Please, name me "Michael Jordan Blah".  Or, "Obama".  Or, "Che".

Do you really want your kid walking around with someone's name and getting everything else associated with it?  Whether it's praise, hate, expectations?  To the common person some of these people might be legendary names, but then again maybe they are just trying to eat and could give a damn about some human who lived 100's of years before them and did something that they barely know about at this point.

How often in real life do we talk about the exploits in history beyond history lessons and classes or perhaps the random holiday?  Is Columbus an everyday association with people in America?  Does everyone always talk about FDR?  Truman?  World War 2 had a nuclear weapon drop on Japan.  I don't think about Truman very often.

And we have the internet and can read/write.  I think its just like anything else the past fades into a blur and eventually people of a new generation just think of the past historical figures as either evil, good, or just a notch on the history of the world.

We talk about it every day. Our fathers/mothers/uncles are full of useless information. Hell, we even force our children to learn all their exploits from the time they're six years old. Or did you forget about school? 

There were millions of Michaels before Jackson or Jordan etc, but I think people like to commemorate things they admire. Parents naming their kids after their parents (or themselves). Of my five, I've named them after TV characters, celebrities, family and movie characters, including a Stephen King book/movie.  I know at least three people named after Columbus too.

I think on Zalathas people would be even more prone to keep the lore, remember the names. Their 'armageddons' have been pretty big and those keeping the records could change them any time.  Like (a certain hero) being tooted for being born there. Having played with that character and knowing he was NOT, I get a tickle in my funny bone cause the REAL history has been changed. Some old fuck of a bard would know the truth.

[Twilight]

Its just the mindset of only passing on your background, and what you have actually experienced IG.

I've told stories IG about people that were a mere six months dead, and get it treated like ancient history by new PCs listening.  I think the idea is nice.  Have a commonly known historical figures file on the website, that at least gives a sentence or two about the people mentioned in the history helpfile (lets call that the benchmark for being generally known), and how they are generally viewed in Tuluk/Allanak and if applicable Luirs/Storm.

What I really hope, though, is that the revamped clan documents will do a much better job with this.  Some call out historical figures somewhat.  But they will fail to mention anything on a person with a street/gate/statue made of them.  I think for a lot of the historical figures, the clan docs would be best to document this information in, and make it more than just a name, but a little background on what would be remembered.

I think everyone has coasted in this regards relying on old players.  Occassionally an old player will play in a position of knowledge, typically a sponsored family role (or gypsy, heh) and be able to reference back a lot of stuff, and the why behind it.  As a lot of stuff isn't in the docs, this is the only way it survives, because the information dies out IC'ly in the PC world.  It might still be with NPC or VNPC, but this isn't readily accessable, and is really beyond the common refrain of "Find out IC".

[Morrolan]

Self-involved? Do you mean, in small social circles?

No, I mean self-involved. Arm characters (and mine are no exceptions) are incredibly self-involved as people. Mostly, they have no families, few loyalties, about zero life-expectancy, and few hobbies or interests outside of their "work." They pursue their goals relentlessly, amassing power and wealth (and occasionally social standing) in a terribly Ayn-Randian way. Corruption, betrayal, and murder are not just the norm for the game, they're the themes. And these are not "social" values.

It has been noted by other players, too, that Arm has "a room full of leaders and no followers" problem. Many players want to be play heroes, but few want to play the guy who remembers the heroes, and goes to the bother of finding a student who he then forces memorize the chants of their songs, possibly in secret because the fuzz is against commoners having any sense of history. In the same way, many people want to play leaders, but few want to play redshirt#6 unless he has a chance to rise to become a leader. Why? Probably because many people find support roles boring and un-fun.

So, yeah, I mean self-involved.

Self-involved: adj. Absorbed primarily or only in one's own interests or activities.

[gfair]

Who's Samos? Does he get the grubs on the table and go hunting for them, or do I? And so on. While there have certainly been 'popular characters', have they really done anything deserving the attention of the virtual populace? If so -- Were they considered heroes? Interesting food for thought, at least. Nom nom nom.

What's the mechanism for keeping the name and deeds of Tektolnes alive?  He's never seen, when spoken of it's typically in nickname or title (Tek, Highlord), and I don't think I've ever heard his story

[Patuk]

Who's Samos? Does he get the grubs on the table and go hunting for them, or do I? And so on. While there have certainly been 'popular characters', have they really done anything deserving the attention of the virtual populace? If so -- Were they considered heroes? Interesting food for thought, at least. Nom nom nom.

What's the mechanism for keeping the name and deeds of Tektolnes alive?  He's never seen, when spoken of it's typically in nickname or title (Tek, Highlord), and I don't think I've ever heard his story

White robed templars.

[Harmless]

Thanks for the explanation, Morrolan. I guess sometimes you can use a dictionary to figure out what people on the GDB are talking about..

In any case, the good news is, I don't think I've ever played a self-involved PC by those terms, and never have I been a good leader. Either a loner or a follower, right here.

[Barzalene]

My favorite role is sidekick

[i can haz mantis]

My favorite role is sidekick

[Fujikoma]

Hearing about my characters who have passed on sometimes makes me think I did a good job. Even now I still hear their names or things they did pop up from time to time and think "Heh, that was ME! I made a difference! People are talking about it like it's interesting!", even if sometimes it's negative.

My biggest bitch is I can't tell the stories of others because my character that was there and knew them is, dead, and I have to pretend like I don't know anything about them, barring the occasional, somewhat misinformed "I heard this somewhere", if I'm aware it's commonly known and it stands to reason I would have overheard it somewhere, which is rare.

[ShaLeah]

My biggest bitch is I can't tell the stories of others because my character that was there and knew them is, dead, and I have to pretend like I don't know anything about them, barring the occasional, somewhat misinformed "I heard this somewhere", if I'm aware it's commonly known and it stands to reason I would have overheard it somewhere, which is rare.

This is one of my pet peeves too. I love it, love it when characters have been around long enough to have others stories or stories of their own. I wish more players shared real stories of people past, like having a parent that was around for that fateful day when a certain elf tribe got scorched. Or when a certain Red Robe got slain in a battle, who -really- won that one war.

I would hope that if a person was present with one character staff would allow a character background that gave them the ability to share that lore.

[lordcooper]

Of my five, I've named them after TV characters, celebrities, family and movie characters, including a Stephen King book/movie.

I still maintain that Shawshank is more of a boy's name.

[ShaLeah]

Of my five, I've named them after TV characters, celebrities, family and movie characters, including a Stephen King book/movie.

I still maintain that Shawshank is more of a boy's name.

Gage... from Pet Cemetery. That cute little kid that comes back a murderer after being hit by a semi.

[Riev]

My biggest bitch is I can't tell the stories of others because my character that was there and knew them is, dead, and I have to pretend like I don't know anything about them, barring the occasional, somewhat misinformed "I heard this somewhere", if I'm aware it's commonly known and it stands to reason I would have overheard it somewhere, which is rare.

This is one of my pet peeves too. I love it, love it when characters have been around long enough to have others stories or stories of their own. I wish more players shared real stories of people past, like having a parent that was around for that fateful day when a certain elf tribe got scorched. Or when a certain Red Robe got slain in a battle, who -really- won that one war.

I would hope that if a person was present with one character staff would allow a character background that gave them the ability to share that lore.

At times, if there was something that 'seems' big enough that my Tuluki character would know, but it happened 10years before he was born, I say that his father or mother told him a story about it, and intentionally get details wrong.

Same with my 'Nakkis, though I know far less about random 'Nakki stuff.

[Furious George]

All tribes should have heroes.  All cities should have legends.  How the tale is spun is what makes the story interesting.

[palomar]

All tribes should have heroes.  All cities should have legends.  How the tale is spun is what makes the story interesting.

And they do. I would like to see more legends in the documentation, to make some of these stories more readily available to players whose PCs play in the clan/tribe etc. I think a lot of these things are forgotten because old players leave, old staffers leave and the details documented probably weren't always as good as one would hope.

[Bogre]

Two ways:

1.  Very long-lived characters can disseminate information about past PCs and events.

2. Clan-documents or history pages that hold 'common knowledge'.

[Zoan]

I made a PC named Samos. His parents named him that because he was an honored hero of the Empire. My Samos was a vile specimen, as poetic irony would have you imagine.

[Twilight]

I've considered doing a city elf in the past from a rinthi tribe that "steals" the names of important people for their children.

He was going to be Garrick the Red.  And always introduce himself as such.

[Tuannon]

Warlord Kharad Tor

Senior Lady Ceylara Ellandris Borsail

Lord Templar Malenthis Jal

Faithful Lady Eunoli Wozzerface

That guy who started or ran the atrium whose name I forget.

Enlil Terash

[Delirium]

Samar Kurac.

[Morrolan]

Samar Kurac.

Shatuka Hostess-slapper

Code Select Expand

See original submissions > Logs > Brawl at the Post by Delirium

P.S. I was there!:

The inked, scar-skinned half-elf speaks to the darkly tanned innkeeper
for a moment, with a glance to you and a firm grip on his serrated
spike-hilted longknife.

[Delirium]

lol, Shatuka wouldn't have been Shatuka without that half-breed recruit who gave her that name (her real name was Reika, aka Half-Ear), and Graven, and Pendeh, and Danu, and Rokov.

Danu. Man, Danu was awesome.

also, I wish I'd combined the feel/think commands in that log, but Black Sid sure was fun to beat around. Great scene.

[The Silence of the Erdlus]

Its amazing how the first Luirsfest is described depending on where you are and who you ask there. Both sides of the Shield Wall have claimed victory in its tournament to me in the past. Where you are and who is there and sometimes who you are can affect how the story is told, sometimes drastically.

[Adhira]

I'm going to lock this thread as it's turning in to one of those 'this guy was awesome thread'.

As far as how 'heroes' are remembered in game - there is a strong bardic tradition in both the north and south, tales would be passed down through song and story.  The Sorceror Kings in both city states have disciples that spread their 'word' (Templars), Tek also has Temples and devotional services.