Playing females as EZ Mode

[greasygemo]

So, yes. We may be sexist. But we'll try not to carry it over to the game.

I'm not a racist IRL, but - I will use racial slurs against elves and breeds.
I'm starkly oppressive political states, but - I will kill anyone who speaks out against the highlord or even suggests he's wrong.
I would choke a bitch in RL who agreed with slavery, but - I would totally own slaves ICly if I could afford them.

It's the docs, man, the docs.. we must try to follow them, otherwise we might as well all just go play second life!

[lordcooper]

In a world where all genders are socially and physically equal, why would your character feel emasculated?

[Marauder Moe]

I suppose I ought to clarify here.

Firstly, I do still believe it is easier, on average, to play a female in this game.

I'm not sure how that translates to a disparagement of women, as I meant it as a commentary about players' behavior towards female PCs, not that of women themselves.

I did not suggest that it's "easy mode" because F-me PCs can sleep their way to the top.  That trope is overblown on the GDB, and players (especially leaders who tend to be veterans) are good about not encouraging such behavior, at least not in a sexist way.

What it is is that female PCs seem to be more approachable and more sympathetic.  After all, IRL, it's usually the men that do the approaching, and it's the men who aren't supposed to be vulnerable/sympathetic.  This is absolutely an innapropriate cultural bleed-over into the game, but it's one that will not be easily shaken.

[Inks]

Heh.. I'm sexist IRL, too.. I, personally believe men are better than women.

"Better" Really? Kind of messed up mate. Of course we treat women differently in RL, we are two different genders and are overall stonger etc. But "Men are better" is  fucking ridiculous  to say.

In Zalanthas I will and do treat you all based on profession, station, personality, and mudsexing skillz. Whether male/female it makes no difference to me or my PCs.

What greasygemo said, also.

[evil_erdlu]

Maybe.. ehrm.. you could read the remaining of my post, sirrah?

[Desertman]

I think the difference is "what kind" of female you play.

For example:

If you play, "The buxom, sultry, beauty queen." Chances are much higher that people, especially male characters, are going to be much kinder to you and much nicer to you. The game will be easier for you based on that alone. Especially if you play into it and use it to your advantage.

Easy mode.

If you play, "The haggard zalanthan desert woman". Which in my opinion is more realistic, all things considered, you are much less likely to run into hordes of guys who give you everything you want instantly for free because they want access to your MUD-Love-Tunnel.

Less Easy Mode.



Granted, I have never played a female character. I have known several people that do, and they have all told me basically the same thing, that it is much easier to find positive interaction/friendships/beneficial relationships as a female character.


I don't see why this would confuse anyone. It is the same IRL. My grandfather used to say, "A woman is sitting on a million dollars if she just knows how to use it."

Men are always going to cater to females more readily than they will to other men due to the lure of potential sex. Even in this virtual world. This shouldn't surprise anyone.

[Marauder Moe]

I have commented on the idea before that when discussing this kind of topic, it's always made as though females are the other, again, highlighted in the thread where the default is a male. It's not men playing hard mode, it's women getting it easy. Badskeelz used the word 'demeaning' to me, and I think he's right.

What do other people think? Am I just getting way bent out of shape over something innocuous or immutable? Are we really incapable as a player base of trying to excise this kind of culture?

Ah, having read your post again, now I think I see what you're getting at, Case, and I see how it could be discouraging.  I write in the "male default" because I'm male and most of my PCs have been male.  It's the default perspective for me.  I should also note that the OP was (playing a) male as well.

Linguistically, though, I'm not sure what I can do about it.

Am I understanding things right or have I missed the mark again?


EDIT:

I have known several people that do, and they have all told me basically the same thing, that it is much easier to find positive interaction/friendships/beneficial relationships as a female character.

This, and only this, is what I meant.

[DustMight]

Mm. If men and women are equal in Zalanthas, there is no 'wrong' way to play either sex.

That said, when my first and only female warrior in heavy armor and armed with swords got called a pretty little thing in all seriousness and was hit on to the point where I had to punch someone in the face.. I did facepalm. A little.

I want to give out kudos to the character who smacked my pretty little thing merchant in the head during an argument.  It was totally unexpected but so great.  Thank you! Nothing is as Armageddon as the taste of blood and sand in one's mouth.

[lordcooper]

Men are always going to cater to females more readily than they will to other men due to the lure of potential sex. Even in this virtual world. This shouldn't surprise anyone.

Shouldn't that work both ways IG?  Also you are assuming a significant majority of Zalanthans are hetero.

[Desertman]

Men are always going to cater to females more readily than they will to other men due to the lure of potential sex. Even in this virtual world. This shouldn't surprise anyone.

Shouldn't that work both ways IG?  Also you are assuming a significant majority of Zalanthans are hetero.

1. It should work both ways in game. I never said it shouldn't. I agree with you. I simply stated that it doesn't currently.

2. Most PC's I have encountered in 15+ years of play have not been homosexual. Maybe I just haven't dug deeply into their sexual side to find their gayness.

Now "virtually" most people would probably be bisexual.

From a strictly PC standpoint, most people I encounter appear to be hetero.

Even then, the bisexual characters I have seen still tend to cater more towards beautiful women than gruff manly men. Even the bisexual females tend to cater more towards other beautiful women in my experience.

I have seen a HUGE number of lesbians. But, I always assume they are being played by straight men men who like to play women, behind the keyboard, so in my mind, they are "hetero" not exactly completely gay.

But the latter part there doesn't really count for this converastion as that is how I see it personally. IC'ly they are gay women, so, considering the number of hot lesbians I have seen I would probably say it is 50/50 gay to hetero now that I think about it.

But, it doesn't matter if it is straight men catering to your hot female pc, or lesbians catering to your hot female pc, playing a hot female PC still gets you catered to. Thus, the wide scale view that playing a hot female PC is easy mode gameplay.

(Edited to add some "strike-throughs" for accuracy.)

[Barzalene]

My male pcs were not attracted to the pink lipped dainty girls. They liked their women tough and capable. My female pcs are more likely to befriend the women who look like they've shown up to be taken seriously than the ones who are examples of fragile beauty. Those pouty pink lipped lovelies with their pert noses and bosoms and batted lashes are too exhausting for me.

They're probably smart and wonderfully played three-dimensional people, but they look like boxes of sex and melodrama so, I steer clear.

[evil_erdlu]

My male pcs were not attracted to the pink lipped dainty girls. They liked their women tough and capable. My female pcs are more likely to befriend the women who look like they've shown up to be taken seriously than the ones who are examples of fragile beauty. Those pouty pink lipped lovelies with their pert noses and bosoms and batted lashes are too exhausting for me.

They're probably smart and wonderfully played three-dimensional people, but they look like boxes of sex and melodrama so, I steer clear.

<3 you!

[AreteX]

In a world where all genders are socially and physically equal, why would your character feel emasculated?

Women and men are physically equal in potential, but that does not mean every man and woman are physically equal.

Emasculate can refer to a person or thing being made to feel weaker or less effective.  This works perfectly with a merchant who has never fought a day in his life comparing themselves to a warrior who could crush their skull.


I realize everyone is passionate about a subject like this because it brings real emotion to the table for some, but nobody has addressed the fact this type of suggestion was made to a NEW PLAYER.  On the NEW PLAYER forums.  We should not be giving our new players suggestions of, "play an f-me, it'll be ez-mode, lols."  Especially when the person already specified what type of character they wanted to play.  I can't believe the suggestion even came up.

[hyzhenhok]

And about female PCs being taken seriously: make sure her physique at least somewhat aligns with her coded abilities, and if she's a grizzled veteran fighter have her accumulate scars and make sure she looks the part. Women are just as capable of being badass warriors as men in Zalanthas, but if you're skinny, delicate or petite, male or female, you have to expect people to roleplay accordingly.  

I had a long lived lady warrior who got plenty of respect, was never showered in gifts. I had a short lived lady ranger who people were always confused why she was dressed in armor and carried a spear and bow. In hindsight there's no surprise: the former was tall and sturdy-looking, while the latter was a petite, cute little thing. Anecdotal, small sample size, I know, but it's there.

The problem is we have to compromise between our RL mainstream sexual ideal for women if we want them to actually look the part, whereas for male PCs there is much less conflict there. But the lack of sexism in Zalanthas goes both ways: small, skinny or frail looking women aren't going to get a pass for begin small, skinny and frail just because they're female. No, you don't have to make your female warriors and rangers asexual freaks; just draw attention to certain traits and downplay others so we can suspend disbelief or fudge your character's apearance in our mind's eye.

[Red Ranger]

I think the difference is "what kind" of female you play.

For example:

If you play, "The buxom, sultry, beauty queen." Chances are much higher that people, especially male characters, are going to be much kinder to you and much nicer to you. The game will be easier for you based on that alone. Especially if you play into it and use it to your advantage.

Easy mode.

If you play, "The haggard zalanthan desert woman". Which in my opinion is more realistic, all things considered, you are much less likely to run into hordes of guys who give you everything you want instantly for free because they want access to your MUD-Love-Tunnel.

Less Easy Mode.

Granted, I have never played a female character. I have known several people that do, and they have all told me basically the same thing, that it is much easier to find positive interaction/friendships/beneficial relationships as a female character.

I don't see why this would confuse anyone. It is the same IRL. My grandfather used to say, "A woman is sitting on a million dollars if she just knows how to use it."

Men are always going to cater to females more readily than they will to other men due to the lure of potential sex. Even in this virtual world. This shouldn't surprise anyone.

It may not surprise anyone.  It doesn't surprise me.  But no one should be satisfied with the current state of affairs, because it's poor RP. It doesn't satisfy me, because it's poor RP.

The docs are explicit.

From the current introductory docs on the new website there's this:

Gender does not affect your character in any way except for which pronouns are used to refer to your character (he/she, etc.). Women and men are equal on Zalanthas.

The old website was more explicit.  From the Quickstart docs:

Avoid imposing your own interpretations and norms on the game world. For example, there is no sexism on Zalanthas; women and men are treated equally. This means that the following would not happen in Armageddon: a man expressing shame at being beaten sparring by a woman; someone referring to women as needing protection or coddling; a woman being shamed for sexual promiscuity while a man is praised for it.

So a male coddling "the buxom, sultry, beauty queen" because she's female and playing into the RL trope that women are weaker and need protection is poor RP.

Similarly, treating "the haggard zalanthan desert woman" like a pretty little thing and expecting her to fill the RL gender role of being weak and needing protection is poor RP.

For example:

Mm. If men and women are equal in Zalanthas, there is no 'wrong' way to play either sex.

That said, when my first and only female warrior in heavy armor and armed with swords got called a pretty little thing in all seriousness and was hit on to the point where I had to punch someone in the face.. I did facepalm. A little.

Similarly, male PCs constantly propositioning and pressuring female PCs for sex to the exclusion of other PC-to-PC interactions or even to the exclusion of other PC-to-PC romantic interactions is poor RP.  There was a lengthy and informative thread about that precise phenomenon not too long ago.  I shared my thoughts as part of that thread.

I personally don't think it's too much to expect that people make an effort to play within the documentation for the gameworld.

[Desertman]

Stuff...

You do realize I already agree with you 100% right?

I was stating how it is, not how I think it should be.

I also try to play the change I want to see. When the majority of my PC's see, "The dainty little f'me", they don't think, "Oh, a little woman that needs my big manly protection. I shall cater to her every need and maybe I can stick my meat in her." My pc's usually think, "That one is small, weak, pathetic, she wouldn't be a good potential mate. She would probably die on me in a month. I don't know how she has lived this long."

^----If I am playing a good/neutral character.

If I am playing an evil character, I see them as prime victims for me to assault asap.

[Morgenes]

Updated chargen doc to include old information as well.

[Fujikoma]

What it is is that female PCs seem to be more approachable and more sympathetic.  After all, IRL, it's usually the men that do the approaching, and it's the men who aren't supposed to be vulnerable/sympathetic.  This is absolutely an innapropriate cultural bleed-over into the game, but it's one that will not be easily shaken.

Playing a vulnerable and sympathetic male seems to result in many unpleasant social consequences, or maybe I'm just doing it wrong.

[Potaje]

Not that I take the stand for or against, but when I read the post in question, I took it in a very none demeaning manner.

I believe in the contexts of -Rp- and getting -RP- from others that they were saying that players seem to gravitate to and seek out interaction with female pcs.

I do not believe that to be false, but I have no real statistics to base what is merely an observation on my part, or perhaps the part of those saying its -easy mode-.

Again -easy mode- may be the completely wrong term to us in this case on their behalf.

But no were in the thought that females are pursued more heavily than male pcs, in a social context, do I find it insulting and I have a hard time seeing how even in a world like Zalanthas that females might not have the social higher ground, in being desired.

It does not limit them in rank, or prestige, it does not limit their betrayal (perhaps even gives them an edge). They die just as often and as hard or easily as the male pcs.

[Red Ranger]

Updated chargen doc to include old information as well.

Hey thanks, Morgenes!

You do realize I already agree with you 100% right?

Good to see that explicitly stated!

[Harmless]

Whoo! Morning shitstorm! Look at all the posts.

Memorable moments with female PCs in my recent past:

1.) Being threatened by one that she could destroy my male PC's braincase in a second, lovingly
2.) Watching a female PC handle gith far better than my at-the-time weak male PC, and neither party making a big deal out of it
3.) Lirathean Templars (nuff said)

So there are great examples of egalitarian RP aplenty in game and I keep seeing more, especially nowadays.

As for the -point- of the new player's advice... yeah, advising to be an f-me is fucked up. The key though, is approachability. He wanted cold and aloof but interaction, and there were lots of other good suggestions in his thread to get him there without playing an f-me. The f-me was a later suggestion, it wasn't a serious one (as Kismet said), and he wasn't the only one thinking it from the get-go (as I said).

I am going to go amend that new player's thread now with my suggestions for approachability.

[ShaLeah]

I've played one male. I started him in a place that had no pcs so I sucked big time. I -will- be playing another male.

Of all my female characters, most are good looking, some are MAJOR f'mes looks wise, some have been pretty friggin' hideous. My ugliest most scarred female PC got more ass than a toilet seat. Here's my take on easy mode according to gender.

Playing a male character, especially undesirable or hideous, makes you instantly rejected, until you become a bad ass code or political wise. Then you become feared like a mufuckah. You gotta work in the beginning to charm them hard.

Playing a gorgeous, clean, mac-daddy male character makes you instantly coveted by the richer folk (and everyone else) and hated/envied by all those toothless, scrawny types.... until you become a bad ass at the code or politically, then you become like Bon Jovi. People want you to be their baby-daddy, throwing panties on the stage type of rock star. You gotta work a bit harder in the beginning to be looked at past the f'me pink lips.

Playing a female character makes you instantly more social, more coveted, good looking or not, gemmed or not, undesirable or not.  It looks to be easier to start but the truth of the matter is that you end up having to work at it harder. The more power you get politically the harder it gets, the more suspicious people get, the harder it is to get minions, people are onto you. The more bad ass, the better looking, the more sexual, the harder you have to work too.

I think there needs to be a distinction between creating and starting a female character specifically for the ease of social roleplay and oocly, consciously not taking advantage of every benefit your female character will be offered.

Maybe gender bending needs to be way to achieve karma. I know I wouldn't get that one. I know when a male is behind -a lot- of female characters. Even IsFriday.

[flurry]

Whether serious of half-serious or not serious, the suggestion that playing a female character is easy mode gets brought up from time to time.

One of the problems I have with the statement is that (intentionally or not) it seems to devalue the achievements of female characters in game. After all, those were only "easy mode" achievements.

While we're swapping anecdotal evidence around, I'd just say I don't see much of the "free stuff" phenomenon directed at my female characters, but that could be because I frequently play tomboyish ones. When I have, I often see it as much of a nuisance as anything else.

[Quell]

While we're swapping anecdotal evidence around, I'd just say I don't see much of the "free stuff" phenomenon directed at my female characters, but that could be because I frequently play tomboyish ones. When I have, I often see it as much of a nuisance as anything else.

I play a good split of both male and female characters, and I tend to lean towards more attractive ones of either gender. In my experience the females do achieve a greater net attention, but it's pretty erratic and I'll go long stretches without noticing any dichotomy in how people interact with them.

For whatever reason the tendency for females to get more attention does seem to be present, but not everpresent in my experience.

[Fujikoma]

I've seen free stuff given to females... That being said, as to whether the free stuff received required a significant investment of time spent with the person, which would, in my opinion, make it, in all actuality, not free stuff, could have easily happened while I was not around to witness it.

My male characters don't really receive free stuff, maybe every now and then someone tosses something their way, but usually that requires a very significant investment of time and favors, thus not really being free.

All that being said, a sentiment I've heard a couple times before IG is, male or female, "The pretty ones almost always die first.".