Half-Elf Roleplay

[DustMight]

You know - there seems to be this growing sense of "woe is me" attitude that half-elves have and while half-elves may be embittered by their birthright, I don't see it formally supported in the documentation on half-elf roleplay.

Half-elves tend to be independent and also tend to want to find acceptance in a group. The documentation for HE roleplay (like Mul RP) is very rich and dumbing it down to "woe is me" is to make it uninteresting.

I'm pretty sure that an fiercely independent half-elf that struggles for group acceptance (whether consciously or unconsciously) and desires a sense of self-worth via both external and internal acceptance would make a helluva murderous bandit and not someone who would end up crying into his beer about his unfortunate life.

Half-elves might be more keen on rejecting others before being rejected, manipulating others to need the half-elf and to tout their accomplishments in an attempt to gain group acceptance.  When the the latter doesn't work, they might well return to rejecting and manipulating in a great-big single-finger salute to the world.

There are variations of personality, of course, but half-elves do not have to play depressed individuals.  In fact, playing a character blissfully unaware of his own internal conflict might be quite interesting.  How many of us really understand the deep-seated needs that motivate us toward or away from certain actions?

[BleakOne]

I think a lot of the half-elf depression comes from many half-elves living in a constant state of being hated, often even by themselves. Couple this with a shifting sense of identity and the general crappiness of the Known, it's not surprising many are rather... unhappy.

Of course, they're individuals too, and I imagine some half-elves would enjoy making the world that hates them suffer. Others would try to find those who will accept them and cling to them, or maybe reject them.

[musashi]

I think the emo half elf jabs exist almost solely on the GDB as a tongue in cheek remark, rather than IG.

[Cutthroat]

I think constant rejection and being treated as a pariah can lead to depression. It can also lead to other things.

[Fujikoma]

Haven't really seen so many half-elves running about to get a growing sense of anything, maybe they're playing in another city.

[spicemustflow]

I think the emo half elf jabs exist almost solely on the GDB as a tongue in cheek remark, rather than IG.

It's not all tongue in cheek, I've seen lots of such comments in serious half-elf rp threads. It's a really bad example for our newbies.

[Desertman]

I do not think your typical half-elf would be all, "Oh, everyone hates me, I never have any real friends, I'm so depressed."

The majority would have the mindset, "Everyone hates me, I never have any real friends. Well fuck them. I don't need any friends. I don't need them to like me. I can stand on my own two feet. I take care of myself."

Mixed slightly with, "But if someone does show interest in me, or value me, I will probably have a soft place in my heart for them somewhere, even if my fiercly independent rough outer shell makes that hard to see most of the time."

At least that is how I play my breeds.

Usually it's something like a lot of this personality:



Blended with a fair bit of this personality (Ranger mode, not King mode, Fellowship of the Ring Only):



Then lightly crusted and topped with a dab of this personality:






My next half-elf ranger = StriderBlade Eastwood.

[Refugee]

I think you always have to consider, when choosing your PC's personality, how he would have survived to his current age.  Pretty sure the woe-is-me sort would be viewed as a crippled antelope to the average Zalanthan, an easy victim who really needs killing, and probably wouldn't have made it to a playable age.

There has to be something strong in someone with such a disadvantaged start in such a brutal world, to make them survive.

[musashi]

I think the emo half elf jabs exist almost solely on the GDB as a tongue in cheek remark, rather than IG.

It's not all tongue in cheek, I've seen lots of such comments in serious half-elf rp threads. It's a really bad example for our newbies.

Wait ... Wait ... There are "serious threads" on the GDB?

Get the fuck out of here   

[Patuk]

The majority would have the mindset, "Everyone hates me, I never have any real friends. Well fuck them. I don't need any friends. I don't need them to like me. I can stand on my own two feet. I take care of myself."

Mixed slightly with, "But if someone does show interest in me, or value me, I will probably have a soft place in my heart for them somewhere, even if my fiercly independent rough outer shell makes that hard to see most of the time."

This. This, so very much. It's what I do, too.

Yes, half-elves often go through phases or conversations where they want to be loved. Yes, they want people to like them sometimes. Yes, they will try to draw attention to themselves.

This is not an excuse to make them whiny little drama queens.

Breeds may want things they won't get, but they're not retarded. Trying to be accepted isn't chasing behind people shouting 'love meeeeee' like the gdb seems to imply, it's having a job and doing it, being a friendly/useful person, and not being an idiot. Conversely, wanting independence is at least as much part of a breed as trying to fit in. This means that breeds sulking all day over having nobody to talk to other than their beetles is downright silly; they're far more likely to have the independent side in them go 'Well, their loss,' and continue on with being the solitary survivor badasses that they have to be.

Breeds may have a different mindset from other people, and they might be treated worse, but how they deal with that is up to them, It does not make them more prone to depression than other races.

[Morrolan]

My next half-elf ranger = StriderBlade Eastwood.

say (speaking to ~chair) You're better than a kank. You'll never die off and leave me.

[Patuk]

I think the emo half elf jabs exist almost solely on the GDB as a tongue in cheek remark, rather than IG.

It's not all tongue in cheek, I've seen lots of such comments in serious half-elf rp threads. It's a really bad example for our newbies.

Wait ... Wait ... There are "serious threads" on the GDB?

Get the fuck out of here   

This would be funny if this didn't regard questions asked by actual newbs. Just don't.

[Harmless]

I play my HEs like desertman. I think borderline personality or any cluster B fits better than just "depression." Antisocial. Aloof. Cycles of seeking approval. Oversensitive to rejection. Love hate duality. Etc.

[Fujikoma]

If people in Zalanthas were really as cruel as some people seem to want to portray them, they'd be swapping stories about how old they were when they decided it was time to kill their parents because they just weren't as strong or useful anymore. Since I haven't seen this IC yet (Sorcerer kings and nobles don't count, motives are different), I'm going to start with the assumption that they do perhaps have some kind of freaking humanity to them, even if nowhere near as pronounced as in our world.

Strength is not linear, there are many dimensions to it. Otherwise there'd be only one stat.

[Riev]

PC Cruelness and the Cruelness of the world are not the same thing.

A lot of people feel that, since its another Player's Story they are dealing with, they are going to have a different outcome (read: Not so cruel). Most of the time, there's muggings, killings, hunting accidents, and tons of ways to die. But PCs make up, really, a small percentage of the population. Just because you don't see it IC, portrayed by PCs, doesn't mean it doesn't happen.

So far as this applies to half-elves, what Refugee says is near gospel. You have to think if your current behavior got your PC to live as long as they have. Moping at the bar, drinking from a shitmug on purpose just to say "look at me! look at me!", telling everyone "Oh man, woe is me, I am le breed. Nobody could like me, and I am just so worthless"... these things are NOT conducive to longevity, because whether you've seen it ICly or not, these attitudes would lead the virtual muggers and cutthroats to just target you time after time. Its a harsh, desert world, where (virtually) water is incredibly hard to come by. People drink booze just because they can't afford to actually get a skin of water. Now a Woe Is Me breed is walking down the street, being mopey and down... whats a cutthroat to do? He's got a knife. Its dark out. That breed seems to have a skin of water... would a PC do it? Maybe not, because they're in the minority. But before you took over YOUR PCs life, would he have been mugged, virtually?

[Marauder Moe]

Meh.

Water isn't hard to come by, it's just expensive.  Ale is mostly water, so is most liquour.

Muggings are not very common due to the brutal and pervasive law enforcement in cities.  Also, this notion of muggers prefering to target people with depression is kind of ridiculous.

Fujikoma is right.  For a societies to exist there needs to be some baseline of behavior level somewhere above murdering psychopath.  Most Zalanthas are probably nice, decent  folk just trying to get by.  Occaisionally they may have to do hard things, but that doesn't mean they like it.


As for the actual topic... well I'd say you can play a self-pitying half-elf if you want, but you don't have to.  Either way is valid.

[Morrolan]

Most Zalanthas are probably nice, decent  folk just trying to get by.  Occaisionally they may have to do hard things, but that doesn't mean they like it.

+1 with gravy on top

[Fujikoma]

He's got a knife. Its dark out. That breed seems to have a skin of water... would a PC do it? Maybe not, because they're in the minority. But before you took over YOUR PCs life, would he have been mugged, virtually?

Likely not, given their backgrounds. As far as some of them have been concerned, can't go into specifics, most of these kinds of issues arose AFTER spending a good long while trying to prove themselves to others, even then, wasn't that pronounced. I usually start mine out like, ok, been socially withdrawn, not sure what to expect but now is the beginning of a potentially great adventure for my character.

Do they get upset because they feel cheated, mistreated? Yeah, eventually. Do they spend a lot of time moping about it? No, they spend time thinking about ways to get back at people, such as, by saving their life, giving them coin when they really need it, maybe just make a fuckload more money than the people who hurt them. Figure there's no greater revenge than letting a breed hater know they owe something to the thing they hate, or getting some kind of leg up on them to show them they aren't so great.

Certainly not Clint Eastwood, or Blade. I'm not trying to portray the perfect or most badass anything. I like my characters to have flaws, not to be the stoic, silent type, even though they may have flaws that aren't obvious.

[Refugee]

Play it out however makes sense to you, of course, but realize that other people are going to do the same.

[ShaLeah]

Most Zalanthas are probably nice, decent  folk just trying to get by.  Occaisionally they may have to do hard things, but that doesn't mean they like it.

+1 with gravy on top

I don't agree.

I would say that most BREEDS are probably nice, decent (primarily) human folk just trying to forget they have any elf in them.

To generalize for the populace I'd say most Zalanthans are highly aware of their environment and begrudgingly must do things they wouldn't normally to survive. Sometimes they like it, a lot, sometimes when it's over they're just glad it wasn't them in those boots.

I haven't played a breed (that I can remember) but I think I'd opt for a personality full of highs and lows, a propensity to addiction, envy, longing and a huge tendency to volley between extremes in thought primarily. I think it and muls are the hardest races psychologically.

[Fujikoma]

I think it's pretty safe to say that most well adjusted individuals able to conceive of long term consequences would be able to look at a particularly wicked act and weigh many factors, such as, does the potential reward outweigh the potential risk? Will I get more out of doing this now or continued interactions with this individual? What can I USE this person for instead?

To simply say "Well, I want them boots and I'm going to cut this sad fecker's throat for them." doesn't take a lot of imagination, whereas conning him into paying you money could get you many pairs of boots, or ripping him off for the things he's trying to sell, would be much more profitable. To say "Well, I don't like breeds so I think I'll kill this one." is not quite as imaginative as "How can I make this fucker really SUFFER?".

To look at this guy and say "Wow, he's dumb, I bet I could kill him." when you should be saying "Wow, he's dumb, I bet I could rip him off again and again." is counterproductive. To say "I hate this guy and want him to suffer, so I think I'll make him bleed out real quick." is missing the point. What are your motives, and how do you get the most out of them?

You see, a troubled person is much more complex than a sick scrab...

[ShaLeah]

To say "Well, I don't like breeds so I think I'll kill this one." is not quite as imaginative as "How can I make this fucker really SUFFER?".

You see, a troubled person is much more complex than a sick scrab...

Before someone else says it: Yes, I know you don't know what the person is -thinking- but I see an awful lot of public breed love and respect, waving, chatting, flirting.
I don't care if you're a merchant and this breed is providing you with shit you need at a cheap ass cost, they -should- be all over you like fresh corpses on the pile to get that business, undercutting everyone to prove their independence. Meanwhile, back at the ranch the "how can I really make this fucker suffer" hunter that hates the breed for undercutting them dies... to a scrab... because the breed has a shitload of friends hunting with him. Friends who really hate him/her but are making the breed suffer by making them THINK they're liked and respected just to use them for profit. Yeah, okay. Subtlety and what not.

I and all my characters gravitate towards kill them bastards, kill them all. Fuck long suffering, how is it suffering if they don't know they're suffering? Breeds suffer their trauma inside their ugly heads enough, it's really more of a mercy killing. 

[Fujikoma]

Annnnd... Characters like that make things interesting. It's not as much fun to play a paranoid character if NO ONE is out to get you. Actually, the people out to get my characters make it all the more rewarding to survive and sometimes provide some payback. Whether it's just "Haha! I survived!" or "Wow, those guards sure hauled them off quick.", to "Well, now I know that hooded figure is out to get me, I'll just take some wild ass route to krath knows where and hopefully lose them.".

Luckily, I'm guessing, haven't run across you in game, ShaLeah. Get lots of "I wish you would just die." to "I like hurting you." to "Just fecking shut up already!", but no arrow to the head= mantis head. Maybe it's because *secrets*.

[musashi]

I think the emo half elf jabs exist almost solely on the GDB as a tongue in cheek remark, rather than IG.

It's not all tongue in cheek, I've seen lots of such comments in serious half-elf rp threads. It's a really bad example for our newbies.

Wait ... Wait ... There are "serious threads" on the GDB?

Get the fuck out of here  

This would be funny if this didn't regard questions asked by actual newbs. Just don't.

A newb didn't start this thread or ask any questions about half elf RP.

I'm making light of it because I haven't ever seen half elves portrayed as drama queens, except in snarky posts on the GDB. I have an account note from staff that says "seems to love his half-elf rangers" or something to that effect because I've played them so often from my first PC rolled onwards, and it never occurred to me to make any of them a whiny emo. The first time I ever got raided was with my first gicker, and it was by a half-elf. I have literally never encountered any half-elf character being all moody broody and dark about their heritage.

So, ok ... we can talk about how half elf role play, like anything else, is not actually a cheap punch line the way it's characterized on the discussion boards, but that kinda seems like stating the obvious. Like pointing out that hey btw ... Dwarves don't actually universally speak without capital letters and punctuation.

[Patuk]

I think the emo half elf jabs exist almost solely on the GDB as a tongue in cheek remark, rather than IG.

It's not all tongue in cheek, I've seen lots of such comments in serious half-elf rp threads. It's a really bad example for our newbies.

Wait ... Wait ... There are "serious threads" on the GDB?

Get the fuck out of here  

This would be funny if this didn't regard questions asked by actual newbs. Just don't.

A newb didn't start this thread or ask any questions about half elf RP.

I'm making light of it because I haven't ever seen half elves portrayed as drama queens, except in snarky posts on the GDB. I have an account note from staff that says "seems to love his half-elf rangers" or something to that effect because I've played them so often from my first PC rolled onwards, and it never occurred to me to make any of them a whiny emo. The first time I ever got raided was with my first gicker, and it was by a half-elf. And have literally never encountered any half-elf character being all moody broody and dark about their heritage.

So, ok ... we can talk about how half elf role play, like anything else, is not actually a cheap punch line the way it's used on the discussion boards, but that kinda seems like stating the obvious. Like pointing out that hey btw ... Dwarves don't actually universally speak without capital letters and punctuation.

I urge you to hang out in Allanak more 

[musashi]

Tuluk 4 life yo. Only emo's point Allanak. 

[Bogre]

The stereotypes of whiny emo breeds and non grammatically inclined dwarves exist for a reason, I've seen both multiple times IG.

I've seen half-elves done well, I guess- but I don't really know what comprises 'well' for a half-elf. Not that many breed chars pop up in my memory as characters I remember. I'm not sure if that's because they're predisposed to be loners, or unclanned. Personally speaking, their roleplay hasn't really ever appealed to me much.

[DustMight]

I play my HEs like desertman. I think borderline personality or any cluster B fits better than just "depression." Antisocial. Aloof. Cycles of seeking approval. Oversensitive to rejection. Love hate duality. Etc.

As someone who works with borderlines frequently (one time six acutely ill female borderline patients all at once - it was a handful) I have to say, that's not a bad example.  Maybe dump the suicidal tendencies and make the HEs a little more slow to change (docs say, the breeds can cycle over the course of seasons if the player prefers).

I tend to play a lot (not all) of my HEs (my favorite race after mul) with a tough-guy loner attitude (often, however, they are not so tough and fall short of their own expectations) that hold grudges at the drop of a hat for the slightest offenses (real or imagined) but are also quickly forgive and forget if someone warms up to them. In this way, they can be easy marks (when someone plays on their need for attention/friendship) but can also be dangerous because they will remember insults for a long time and the magnitude of the response may be out of reason.  

I saw a really great HE played by a staffer over a long period of time and in reflection (it was not apparent at the time) they did an excellent job of it and anyone familiar with that particular character could do well to think on it's performance and consider HE mentality.

[Vwest]

My next half-elf ranger = StriderBlade Eastwood.

I'm your #1 fan, never change.

If people in Zalanthas were really as cruel as some people seem to want to portray them, they'd be swapping stories about how old they were when they decided it was time to kill their parents because they just weren't as strong or useful anymore. Since I haven't seen this IC yet (Sorcerer kings and nobles don't count, motives are different), I'm going to start with the assumption that they do perhaps have some kind of freaking humanity to them, even if nowhere near as pronounced as in our world.

I'm inclined to agree, I think the forum perspective is skewed by a lot of people looking out out-cred each other with their view of how harsh the game world is.

A society or group of societies where people were all as murderous, vicious and monstrous as the GDB would have you believe wouldn't last, it would never continue to exist given the harshness of Zalanthas. Even if the game world was as lush as Earth, that kind of society wouldn't work. I don't see NPCs or VNPC echos of people murdering each other in the street, of people cannibalizing each other or the powers that be engaged in non-stop acts of public torture or horrendous abuse.

I don't see the documentation that suggests everyone is out murdering the weak and the crippled for their threadbare shoes, or just because they 'aren't fit to live'. From some of the posts you see, you would think it was utter anarchy with bodies piling up in streets painted red with the blood of orphans recently butchered for fresh meat.

You cannot have a society like that, I don't care how fantasy minded you are.

Sorry, the 'rinth doesn't count as a society, I don't even know how we justify it existing at all if we're that hard nosed about pushing realism.

A little more on topic... I have nothing to post, I've never had a half-elf character before and it's a little daunting to balance it all out.

[ShaLeah]

The more I think about it, the more I think anything other than human should be a karma option. Especially half-breeds.

[Fujikoma]

How about just make all races, including humans, be a karma option? That'll sort out all the issues.  

EDIT: Mayhaps there's something to the above post, I really don't know. It would cut down on a lot of variety, freedom to explore, try new things though, in my opinion, which seems to me like it would be a bad thing.

Although, I don't know, whatever.

[ShaLeah]

How about just make all races, including humans, be a karma option? That'll sort out all the issues.  

EDIT: Mayhaps there's something to the above post, I really don't know. It would cut down on a lot of variety, freedom to explore, try new things though, in my opinion, which seems to me like it would be a bad thing.

Although, I don't know, whatever.

The hardest thing about life on Zalanthas is adjusting our real world thoughts/morals/limitations/closed mindedness/open mindedness to fit INTO the world. At least it was for me. Any mindset other than our own is difficult, add to mul mix all that shit Zalanthas has that's allowable, and normal, it's a bit overwhelming.

Being able to play the norm as a human, a normal human, seems an area that new players should familiarize themselves with before jumping into making harder things. Master the hatred towards breeds and elves before you play them so to speak. Get that human superiority nice and sharp.

[gfair]

The hardest thing about life on Zalanthas is adjusting our real world thoughts/morals/limitations/closed mindedness/open mindedness to fit INTO the world. At least it was for me. Any mindset other than our own is difficult, add to mul mix all that shit Zalanthas has that's allowable, and normal, it's a bit overwhelming.

Being able to play the norm as a human, a normal human, seems an area that new players should familiarize themselves with before jumping into making harder things. Master the hatred towards breeds and elves before you play them so to speak. Get that human superiority nice and sharp.

I had this thought as well with the recent Elf tribal thread - if Blackwing is a clan with such power, why not give the tribe a requirement of karma >= 2 to ensure that it is played responsibly?  I think it's safe to say that with great Karma comes great trust (There's a Spiderman paraphrase in there somewhere).

The Dwarven focus is not an easy thing to understand. Balancing the half-elf's love / hate relationship with others isn't either, they can impose some significant consequences.

Maybe not make them a Karma option, but time / experience options.  Say, if a player plays regularly for 3 months, then these options are unlocked.  Because let's face it - the human option alone would in no way limit the experiences new players could have. When I began I went after the elf, the half-elf, the Dwarf because they were all unique, Humans were Vanilla. But if we make the introductory literature Human-centric, we reveal their strengths and weaknesses and why we start off with them.

[musashi]

I understand the temptation, but I really will turn off new players.

I could have been playing Arm at least five years earlier than when I started. But I didn't. Because not being able to app a Mage out the gates turned me off to the game in a big way.

[ShaLeah]

The hardest thing about life on Zalanthas is adjusting our real world thoughts/morals/limitations/closed mindedness/open mindedness to fit INTO the world. At least it was for me. Any mindset other than our own is difficult, add to mul mix all that shit Zalanthas has that's allowable, and normal, it's a bit overwhelming.

Being able to play the norm as a human, a normal human, seems an area that new players should familiarize themselves with before jumping into making harder things. Master the hatred towards breeds and elves before you play them so to speak. Get that human superiority nice and sharp.

I had this thought as well with the recent Elf tribal thread - if Blackwing is a clan with such power, why not give the tribe a requirement of karma >= 2 to ensure that it is played responsibly?  I think it's safe to say that with great Karma comes great trust (There's a Spiderman paraphrase in there somewhere).

The Dwarven focus is not an easy thing to understand. Balancing the half-elf's love / hate relationship with others isn't either, they can impose some significant consequences.

Maybe not make them a Karma option, but time / experience options.  Say, if a player plays regularly for 3 months, then these options are unlocked.  Because let's face it - the human option alone would in no way limit the experiences new players could have. When I began I went after the elf, the half-elf, the Dwarf because they were all unique, Humans were Vanilla. But if we make the introductory literature Human-centric, we reveal their strengths and weaknesses and why we start off with them.

I understand the temptation, but I really will turn off new players.

I could have been playing Arm at least five years earlier than when I started. But I didn't. Because not being able to app a Mage out the gates turned me off to the game in a big way.

I wouldn't think a 3-6 month karma option for other than human would turn off more players than being told they're doing it wrong.

[Fujikoma]

Maybe having words more specific than "You're doing it wrong" would help. 3-6 karma options? I've seen posts from players playing two years who don't have a single point... Much less all the limitations imposed by that from guild/subguild options to even be in the range for special applications, not to mention I've read they want you to have some elven RP experience before you even try for desert elf. Are you sure this makes sense?

EDIT: What I see as the problem is far too few others playing races other than human to provide an example, though there are a few here and there I've run across. Tagging that shit with karma, it'll either need to be seriously buffed or it's going to die... Well, except dwarves...

[musashi]

I wouldn't think a 3-6 month karma option for other than human would turn off more players than being told they're doing it wrong.

You say that, but seriously. I played Harshlands instead of Armageddon despite UnderSeven (who went to high school with me) relentlessly trying to lure me over to Armageddon the whole time, for about five years.

I only finally crossed over because Harshlands puttered out to basically dead and still had nothing remotely resembling a mage option in the pipeline, so I was like ugh, fuck it. I'll deal with being mundane for my first couple of characters.

Needless to say, after buying into Armageddon, I love the karma system and think it's important for maintaining the feel of the game. I had a blast with the mundane classes I played, and <3 rangers something fierce.

But for potential new players who have not bought in yet, I think it's a barrier to entry as is, and would be worse if they looked at their options and saw just human. For the sake of restricting exceptionally rare and codedly powerful guild and race options, I think it's a barrier worth bearing, but we gotta have a balance there. Put too much stuff behind the karma wall and I think we'll quickly reach the point of diminishing returns when it comes to juggling getting new players, and keeping a high quality of RP.

[Lutagar]

HUMAN WARRIOR
NO ITEMS
FINAL DESTINATION

[hyzhenhok]

I disagree that half elves and dwarves are particularly difficult. Really it depends if the newbie has experience with roleplaying (and IRP MUDs). And it's not like newbies get into the game as dwarves/breeds with zero staff oversight. Their apps have to be approved just like everyone else's.

I can see the argument for elves, but not breeds and dwarves.

Though it'd be funny if breeds had a mul-like function, only instead of randomly raging and attacking shit they are randomly forced to >rebel.

[Delirium]

My first character was a half-elf. I read the docs. Despite my many newbie mistakes with the code and a few silly RP scenarios I still got kudos for "good half-elven roleplay".

So my point is that it's possible to jump into the game and play a race - other than human - well.

[Narf]

My first character was a half-elf. I read the docs. Despite my many newbie mistakes with the code and a few silly RP scenarios I still got kudos for "good half-elven roleplay".

So my point is that it's possible to jump into the game and play a race - other than human - well.

I think dwarf and half-elven role play is much more of a 'learn by doing' experience. In that sense, having appropriately responding human players is far more helpful to new players I think.

[Harmless]

I know somebody here who started out with half elves and is now easily one of the most celebrated players around.

[ShaLeah]

Maybe I've just never seen a "well played" half-elf?

Side effect of playing humans most likely. 

[hyzhenhok]

Maybe I've just never seen a "well played" half-elf?

Side effect of playing humans most likely. 

I think this is why you see people complain about badly RP'd breeds and dwarves: a lot of their racial roleplay happens internally. You don't see them being well-played because you can't read their inner monologues. Elves, by contrast, have racial docs the specify how external interaction should happen.

[Fujikoma]

I haven't played a breed (that I can remember) but I think I'd opt for a personality full of highs and lows, a propensity to addiction, envy, longing and a huge tendency to volley between extremes in thought primarily. I think it and muls are the hardest races psychologically.

Perhaps, ShaLeah, since you seem to have such a good grasp on how it's done, it would be a good idea to try it sometime and show people like me what it takes...

Playing a human, especially an avid breed hater, will limit your interaction with them and naturally dispose you to thinking what little you see of them is all there is to them. Meanwhile, playing a breed means you're pretty much going to be interacting with other breeds, maybe dwarves and elves, and just MIGHT be able to befriend a half-giant or two, while humans take every opportunity to crap on you. I'm not complaining, it's what you sign up for when you select the race.

If you do this, keep in mind, paranoia is your friend when they really ARE out to get you.

[manipura]

Perhaps, ShaLeah, since you seem to have such a good grasp on how it's done, it would be a good idea to try it sometime and show people like me what it takes...

Playing a human, especially an avid breed hater, will limit your interaction with them and naturally dispose you to thinking what little you see of them is all there is to them. Meanwhile, playing a breed means you're pretty much going to be interacting with other breeds, maybe dwarves and elves, and just MIGHT be able to befriend a half-giant or two, while humans take every opportunity to crap on you. I'm not complaining, it's what you sign up for when you select the race.

If you do this, keep in mind, paranoia is your friend when they really ARE out to get you.

I don't think this is necessarily true, not all the time at least.  There are plenty of humans that will interact with breeds, whether they despise them or not.  If a human thinks that they can take advantage of a breed or get them to do something for them, many will.  They won't necessarily like it, and maybe the whole time they'll have an internal running dialogue about how much they hate having to deal with this disgusting creature, but if they can see some benefit of using the breed to their advantage, they will. 
To many humans a breed is an undesirable 'thing' that they wouldn't choose to be around, but they realize that these undesirable 'things' are often more than willing to do whatever is asked of them in the hopes of maybe being accepted.

[ShaLeah]

Maybe I've just never seen a "well played" half-elf?

Side effect of playing humans most likely. 

I think this is why you see people complain about badly RP'd breeds and dwarves: a lot of their racial roleplay happens internally. You don't see them being well-played because you can't read their inner monologues. Elves, by contrast, have racial docs the specify how external interaction should happen.

Fair enough point, I -don't- know what's going on in their head, only what they outwardly show. That said, I have "friended" half elves, and I can say without a doubt that they were all played as either elves or humans without sticking to gaining the acceptance of the race they're acting like, they've all ended up being the kind that wants everyone to love them. Half-elves do have documentation that specify their norms.

I haven't played a breed (that I can remember) but I think I'd opt for a personality full of highs and lows, a propensity to addiction, envy, longing and a huge tendency to volley between extremes in thought primarily. I think it and muls are the hardest races psychologically.

Perhaps, ShaLeah, since you seem to have such a good grasp on how it's done, it would be a good idea to try it sometime and show people like me what it takes...

Playing a human, especially an avid breed hater, will limit your interaction with them and naturally dispose you to thinking what little you see of them is all there is to them. Meanwhile, playing a breed means you're pretty much going to be interacting with other breeds, maybe dwarves and elves, and just MIGHT be able to befriend a half-giant or two, while humans take every opportunity to crap on you. I'm not complaining, it's what you sign up for when you select the race.

If you do this, keep in mind, paranoia is your friend when they really ARE out to get you.

The thought of delving into that psyche isn't as unappealing to me as it once was but I don't think I'd do it the justice it deserves due to things outside the mentality roleplay.  I may try it though to challenge myself and make the lowest of the low breedy type, a gemmed rinther who lusts after half giants and stumps

To many humans a breed is an undesirable 'thing' that they wouldn't choose to be around, but they realize that these undesirable 'things' are often more than willing to do whatever is asked of them in the hopes of maybe being accepted.

I wouldn't feel so badly about the half-elves I have seen and dealth with if they had to work harder to get accepted. If they -were- taken advantage of (and mind you, paying 20 sid for that 30 sid hide is NOT taking advantage of them) and they stupidly kept coming back for more, it'd make more sense to me.

[Morrolan]

Okay, I'm going to try to >rescue this thread from "how bad can we treat the breeds"/"GDB hate-cycle."

Here are some things to think about when it comes to halfbreeds:

• Half-elves have a fundamental instability in their "character."*
• Additionally, half-elves can (almost) never call on even the most general kinship links with humans or elves. They lack the basic racial/tribal support network.
• For the two reasons above, as well as others, half-elves automatically have terribly low social status. This makes it impossible for them to attain certain positions.
• Half-elves are uncommon.

Just playing those four things should be enough to flesh out any half-elf.

* Note - This use of the word "character" takes more explanation, as we mostly have stopped using the word this way in English.

Half-elves present with symptoms similar to emotional/spiritual trauma, especially those associated with a lowered/fragile sense of self. What makes them different from other trauma victims is that theirs doesn't come from experience, even thought though such experiences can heighten their symptoms.

The half-elf's fundamentally fragile sense of self gives him or her neither the ability to trust (connect) nor to maintain an independent identity (not connect).

[The Silence of the Erdlus]

Okay, so.

I haven't done it yet because I'm not sure, but is it logical to play an Aragorn type of breed?

Many breeds in the game seem to take on a sort of 'LAME' label, in capital letters, in terms of how they perceive themselves. Aragorn doesn't have this. He knows he does not belong anywhere, he doesn't want any part of human or elven society, at least he acts like he doesn't, yet you get glimpses of what that kind of life is like for him, night after night of sleeping alone in the wilderness, and it seems unbelievably lonely and it must affect him somehow. Yet in my mind I can't separate being a breed from being a mentally broken individual, as well as a social outsider. Thoughts?

[Zoan]

All my half-elves are now forever going to be one variation or another of Thomas Raith.

I AM IN LOVE WITH MY GIRLFRIEND BUT HER LOVE BURNS ME I AM SO TRAGICALLY BEAUTIFUL AND ALONE.

[AmandaGreathouse]

All my half-elves are now forever going to be one variation or another of Thomas Raith.

I AM IN LOVE WITH MY GIRLFRIEND BUT HER LOVE BURNS ME I AM SO TRAGICALLY BEAUTIFUL AND ALONE.

Uh... shit... I think I might be playing my humans wrong.

[Patuk]

Okay, so.

I haven't done it yet because I'm not sure, but is it logical to play an Aragorn type of breed?

Many breeds in the game seem to take on a sort of 'LAME' label, in capital letters, in terms of how they perceive themselves. Aragorn doesn't have this. He knows he does not belong anywhere, he doesn't want any part of human or elven society, at least he acts like he doesn't, yet you get glimpses of what that kind of life is like for him, night after night of sleeping alone in the wilderness, and it seems unbelievably lonely and it must affect him somehow. Yet in my mind I can't separate being a breed from being a mentally broken individual, as well as a social outsider. Thoughts?

Breeds don't see themselves as lame. When they want to fit in with humans/elves, it's because they think they're either the same or better and that they deserve it and that people should accept them already. When they want to be independent, it's because they think they're too badass for this world and that everyone's too bastardly for them to put up with even more. Whether they are annoyed at people for not accepting them or annoyed at people for 'mocking' their independence, they'll be angry at human/elven society, not at themselves.

[Harmless]

Every half-elf I make from now on is going to have awful acne.

[Fujikoma]

Like in that grease manga? That would be sweet, squeeze your whole face out on people to torture them with popped zit grease.

[Zoan]

Stop it Fuji, you're getting me hot and bothered.

[Vwest]

This thread went so wrong, so fast.

[TheWanderer]

This thread went so wrong, so fast.

Seems rather appropriate in a thread regarding the bastard children of humans with a fetish. 

[DustMight]

Okay, I'm going to try to >rescue this thread from "how bad can we treat the breeds"/"GDB hate-cycle."

Here are some things to think about when it comes to halfbreeds:

• Half-elves have a fundamental instability in their "character."*
• Additionally, half-elves can (almost) never call on even the most general kinship links with humans or elves. They lack the basic racial/tribal support network.
• For the two reasons above, as well as others, half-elves automatically have terribly low social status. This makes it impossible for them to attain certain positions.
• Half-elves are uncommon.

Just playing those four things should be enough to flesh out any half-elf.

* Note - This use of the word "character" takes more explanation, as we mostly have stopped using the word this way in English.

Half-elves present with symptoms similar to emotional/spiritual trauma, especially those associated with a lowered/fragile sense of self. What makes them different from other trauma victims is that theirs doesn't come from experience, even thought though such experiences can heighten their symptoms.

The half-elf's fundamentally fragile sense of self gives him or her neither the ability to trust (connect) nor to maintain an independent identity (not connect).

I would be careful and refer to this: http://ginka.armageddon.org/help/view/Half-Elf%20Roleplay

I think you make a lot of generalizations that are not always true or, when they are true, don't have to be obvious.

[Morrolan]

I would be careful and refer to this: http://ginka.armageddon.org/help/view/Half-Elf%20Roleplay

I think you make a lot of generalizations that are not always true or, when they are true, don't have to be obvious.

Specifically?

[Zoan]

I wanna heeeeeeeeeeeal

I wanna feeeeeeeeeeeel

Like I'm close to something reeeeeeeeal

[Vwest]

I wanna heeeeeeeeeeeal

I wanna feeeeeeeeeeeel

Like I'm close to something reeeeeeeeal

No.

[RogueGunslinger]

Erase all the pain, 'till it's gone!

[Delirium]

No.

[Erythil]

Okay, so.

I haven't done it yet because I'm not sure, but is it logical to play an Aragorn type of breed?

Many breeds in the game seem to take on a sort of 'LAME' label, in capital letters, in terms of how they perceive themselves. Aragorn doesn't have this. He knows he does not belong anywhere, he doesn't want any part of human or elven society, at least he acts like he doesn't, yet you get glimpses of what that kind of life is like for him, night after night of sleeping alone in the wilderness, and it seems unbelievably lonely and it must affect him somehow. Yet in my mind I can't separate being a breed from being a mentally broken individual, as well as a social outsider. Thoughts?

My only issue with this is that Aragorn is part of an inherently superior Aryan superman bloodline that traces back directly to ancient kings and the golden age of man.  The guy even lives twice/three times as long as a normal human.

Whereas half-elves don't have any of that sense of history or purpose.

I would prefer to see a more realistic range of archetypes for half-elves though instead of just mentally broken people.  Someone who's aloof and self-confident could work just fine as far as I'm concerned.

[Ouroboros]

I think the first thing any new player should do, or one attempting a new race than they've experience before, is to forget every single stereotype on the GDB and read over the documentation carefully. More often than not, there's a huge gap between the docs and the stereotypes. I understand the stereotypes exist for a reason, but even if there are such personalities IG from time to time, they should constitute the exception. Half-breed's are not emotional wrecks that keep a shaving razor handy at all times in case the suicidal mood takes over. Dwarves aren't one-dimensional half-pint's that can't speak properly. Half-giants aren't mentally retarded, drooling hulks that are incapable of a single intelligent thought. And so forth. Yet all these stereotypes exist, either because enough players have played these races against the docs, or because it amuses us to think of them as such in our discussion.

Personally my experience with both pure and partial elven blood is severely limited, because neither mindset meshes well with my own RL personality. While I'm confident I could act the part if needed, I also know the effort it would take would detract from my enjoyment. In contrast, playing a racial profile that better meshes with my own results in a more enjoyable and realistic experience for both myself and others. Every non-human race in the game has it's own peculiarities and there are players that excel in those roles, and players that sadly don't. For example, many find the dwarven mindset difficult to maintain or portray, while personally it's ideally suited to my own. I'm patient, task-oriented, and can be obsessively focused on a project for long periods at a time, so for me the dwarven focus comes natural. By the same token I've seen players do an amazing job of portraying other races that I myself find difficult to grasp.

Some years back I had the pleasure of rp'ing with a human-sided half-elf that hid their heritage, and the player did an amazing job of it. After months of rp with the character, when I finally learned their secret, it all clicked together beautifully. Throughout our interactions the player had set in place numerous aspects of his psychological profile, but had done this so subtly that it worked perfectly. Instead of being a stereotypical drama queen that cuts themselves to sleep, the character was complex and three-dimensional.

My point in all this is to say... it takes all kinds, and not everyone is suited for every race. While I don't suggest anyone restrict themselves in any way, or play the same race exclusively (even if many of us do), it would serve everyone best if each of us takes a bit of time to analyze their strengths and weakness and play to the former. And when we do decide to take on roles outside our comfort zone, as we all should, it's best to ignore the stereotypes and interpret the documentation ourselves first-hand or if in doubt, talk to helpers and staff members who can shed more light with less bias.

[Fujikoma]

I'd think it's easier to play a human looking half-elf as not such a drama queen wrist slasher (I did this once, not sure how believably) because it's conceivable they were not stomped all over by society in general from the day they were born, and thus, while still retaining the natural half-elf personality characteristics, would have much less to be bent out of shape over... But still I think it's cool when yeah, it's subtle, then one day it all clicks because the character was being played properly.

As far as breeds which are obviously breeds, you can say they're emotionally hardened as much as you want, but if you've been emotionally, physically and/or verbally abused most of your life you'll have an interesting perspective on how it has affected you, particularly if you're already prone to certain behavioral "issues". Sure, some will turn out all quiet, Josey Wales style badasses, I see no problem with that, but not ALL of them will be that way.

Some will be loudmouths, braggarts, to cover up their own insecurities. Some will be whiny, annoying passive/aggressive douchebags too. Keep in mind there's some human in there, plenty of room for variation. There's no one way to play anything. Just because a particular behavior will lead to death does not mean it would have already killed the individual in question. Plenty of humans, elves and dwarves pick some suicidal career paths or goals (wink wink try the Byn sometime, get a close look at the shield wall or a *insert nasties here* swarm) but this does not mean it's against the docs to do so. No risk, no reward.

In a desperate environment, people will risk all for small gain, and many will die, but those that push through will survive and perpetuate the life of their race. Barring a few characteristics that threaten extinction, I think that which is not entirely optimal, especially in social animals, can survive depending upon the threats posed by the environment and the advantages conveyed by other traits.

This includes depression, I've never had the urge to knife someone who was depressed (although someone who was a pompous ass, yeah). Someone I didn't know well (looked like a downright hard motherfucker) who was at an apartment I used to rent once pointed a pistol in my face while I was drunk and demanded my wallet, I told him to just pull the trigger, he'd be doing me a favor, then laughed hysterically. Should have seen the look on his face, he got the fuck out of there quickly without further demands.

[Ouroboros]

That's a valid perspective, definitely. And the point that should be impressed is that characters are as complex as we are. A half-breed is no more an emo than most all of us would be labeled as nerds. The mistake is to use a blanket stereotype as the sole foundation of a character's personality, and that's one of the points I was trying to get across.

That said, suicidal tendencies and thoughts are very different from suicidal career paths. The main difference being, few enter those career's thinking it's suicide. They generally think they can rise above the dangers and live, often even as they're slowly falling down the Shield Wall. Even feeling like you have nothing to lose doesn't equate suicidal thoughts, it just means you're willing to risk more in life. But you're still risking something to gain something better than what you have, or die trying, which is different than wanting to end it all.

[ShaLeah]

A half-breed is no more an emo than most all of us would be labeled as nerds.

Accepted by neither humans nor elves, half-elves tend to be extremely self-reliant, and they pride themselves on this trait. Half-elves try to do everything for themselves, such as hunting for their own meals and camping well apart from others they are with. Despite this, half-elves typically try to gain acceptance by elves or humans and will go out of their way toward that end. In many ways, half-elves are on a continual journey to establish their personal identity.

I feel like the above should have "and will likely never achieve acceptance by either race" tacked on to the end of that bolded sentence.

Stereotypes aside, I feel like breeds would be more emotional, if only for the loathing they have to put up with their whole lives above not fitting anywhere and being a product of rape. Being able to trust no one. Being used by everyone. I would think that would create some sort of self loathing that would be really hard to get out of. Don't cry out loud, just keep it inside and learn how to hide your feelings kind of emo.

This thread has opened up my eyes a little more. Thank ya'll.

[Ouroboros]

...being a product of rape. Being able to trust no one. Being used by everyone.

Thing is, you just described a large chunk of the commoner class in Zalanthas. I think part of the reason we tend to view half-elves as the emotional wrecks we do, is because we draw parallels to our own culture. Being the product of rape I would imagine to be common in Zalanthas, as much as it is to be the product of a whore. Trusting no one? That's a pretty common condition as well, to just about every commoner (and most nobles actually). The moment you trust someone, you lose your boots. Being used? Heh. Ask a slave how they feel about it, of which there are plenty and most of them I imagine comfortable in their own skin. If being used led directly to being an emotional wreck, dwarves (with a history of being slaves) would have never had the fight in them to rebel or even function in society.

I think the key aspect to focus in on with regards to half-elven rp is their duality, their inner conflict, their need for personal identity. Whether or not this depresses them is entirely up to the individual, just like IRL we all deal with the same stress factors in different ways. I think it's a mistake to focus too much on how we perceive a half-elf would react to external influences, when their conflict is at it's core internal. They might not give a rat's ass that they were the product of rape, hell half the people they know might be too, but they do care about the fact they don't belong and want to belong... but don't want to belong... but do.. and so forth.

[Morrolan]

I think the key aspect to focus in on with regards to half-elven rp is their duality, their inner conflict, their need for personal identity.

I think this is an excellent point.

[Norcal]

Having never played a breed I am going to come from the perspective of how my PCs react to them.  I have interacted with a lot of breeds IC, from slimy nasty ones, to those with some level of respectability IC. My knee jerk response is always to have my PCs be -really- mean, to the level of their abilities and to what the situation allows. I know that my PC is supposed to dislike, if not outright hate breeds.

My question is why.   "Because the docs say so" is not a good enough answer. I need more motivation than that to play it consistently.

Usually I start out with my PC being mean, but the Breed ends up having a pleasant personality and is played by a talented player who rps well. It's fun to be around them. So my PCs initial meanness is not played out.  I often see IG that the way people actually treat breeds is different from the way they say they feel about them. Like sex between the races.

The official line of distaste or disgust for mating between the two races is only skin deep in Zalanthas. The number of breeds around means that there are a lot of people who say they are disgusted in public, but make other choices in private, even if the choice is imposed by force.

I find that I need to fix a level of intolerance of breeds for each of my PCs. This level needs to be there because of something that has happened in my PCs life. Why does -my- PC hate, loath, or just mildly dislike breeds? This helps me to play consistent.

I reckon it would be the same way with playing a breed. Why does your PC feel the way she does? What is the motivation for their behavior? Trying to consistently play a severely emotionally tweeked character would be  very difficult and few players could pull it off for a substantial time. Breeds don't "have" to be emotional basket cases, and if they are there should be IC consequences. Consistency before stereotype.

[Qzzrbl]

My question is why.   "Because the docs say so" is not a good enough answer. I need more motivation than that to play it consistently.

Found this little gem.

At the risk of ... You know what, fuck it.

Here's how I see half-elves, this week:

Half-elves are hated more than elves not because of what they are but what they represent - it's the same reason that (oh fuck am I really going to go there? yes, yes I am) Henry has to kill Charles Bon in Absalom! Absalom! - half-elves are, unequivocally, the "nigger that's going to sleep with your sister" - and why in Light in August Joe Christmas is not just killed but castrated, too. In layman's terms - half-elves are hated because they represent the mixing of races, not because they are worse than either race in and of themselves. In fact, the fact that they're more employable than elves proves this - that, anyway, it's a different sort of racism entirely. Half-elves are mulattoes, and provided they look more human than elvish, that's okay - until, of course, the truth comes out. Hate them, yes, but you wouldn't necessarily shun them as you would an elf, either - not in the same way, anyway. Let them work in your kitchens and on your estates, because it is - I guess - an inclusive hate. You shun elves and they're dirty outsiders, but they have their own culture and society and they're basically alien to you, anyway. They don't care, they have their tribe. But half-elves? It's worse for them because they're under the illusion that they can be accepted by a culture or race and they cannot be - they're drawn in, treated better than most elves at first blush, but it's skin deep. Beneath that, there's vicious racism - even worse than with elves, but much more subtle, too. It's the difference between attacking someone on the street and beating them unconscious and taking someone back to your home, employing them in your household, and burning them with cigarette butts, telling them they're dirt, and dehumanizing them utterly under the guise of kindness.

Why are there no famous half-elves?

If a half-elf achieves fame, they are absorbed into the culture they most resemble - or, at least, the fact that they're a breed is typically glossed over: they become either elf or not elf - look at Langston Hughes, Nicolas Guillen, Barack Obama. They're all breeds, but at the same time they're not described as breeds at all, with the possible exception of Guillen (Cuba has a disproportionate population of breeds, so the race division there is less distinct) - they're elves, because they most resemble elves. In fact, they are what every elf should aspire to - they are the most intelligent, artistic, well-known and articulate elves around... and that's because they're half human. And they're still shunned by the humans who call them good elves.

Take a long, hard look at racism in recent history, and ask yourself "why?". Then inject that reasoning into your character's brain and replace skin color with sharpears and breeds.

[RogueGunslinger]

And then dial it up a little bit.