Since we feel like talking about Tuluk again.

[Reiloth]

As someone who's been here for over ten, I can tell you....

Some Houses in Allanak have one paragraph of documentation, and i'm not even sure if there is 'secret documentation' for them. They're pretty boring. There's literally a poop house. C'mon.

House Jal is an important part of Allanak, since no one there is enough of a tight-ass to pinch turds into diamonds like they do in Tuluk.

Tuluk maybe has -too- much documentation.

We agree. Tuluk has too much documentation and it stifles a lot of players, even older and experienced ones, it would seem. Sounds like it needs some scaling down to make it more approachable for a broader section of the player base.

Rules are fun to both bend and break, but living in a society that tends to kill (See: Disappear) rulebreakers makes it more fun to 'bend' the rules oftentimes.

What you enjoy does not equal what everyone else might enjoy. I personally find the entire system broken because every time a rule is bent, it becomes Templarate business number one. With more players (or scaling back and adjusting Tuluks documentation to better support a smaller player base), that would not be the case as enough else would be going on to let the small things slip past more often then not.

With the current 'one power clique' system (as there aren't enough people / sponsored roles to really support another), you just have a few people 'in' and everyone else is just rotating fodder, making characters, living a bit and then getting vanished for some truly asinine reasons.

I honestly find myself playing in Tuluk and not seeing it as 'broken' by any stretch of the imagination. Sure, it could be improved. So could Allanak, Luirs, Cenyr, the Canyons of Waste, the Grey Forest. Looks like they seem to improve over time, just takes a while.

I'm not hinting at minor improvements or adjustments, I'm suggesting ret-con some documents and adjusting Tuluks system to better function with a smaller number of players, done in such a way that we can return to what it is now when we have the player pool to support it without draining the rest of the game of PCs.

You'd be surprised what happens when you overturn the wrong rock, at the wrong time.

I really, really wouldn't, but good effort

I don't think it's the -amount- of players in Tuluk that can make it great. I think it's the -quality- of players in Tuluk that can make it great.

Define quality. What makes a player 'low quality' enough that they make Tuluk 'suck'? What makes a player 'good enough' to meet your standards for the area?

And do it without falling back on the Tuluki fan #1 cop-out of 'they don't get it', as all that does is reinforce my point that if so many people can't puzzle it out, it needs to be adjusted to make it more approachable for everyone.

As far as I'm concerned, anyone who logs in and makes the effort to maintain a three-dimensional character that grows and evolves is a quality player and by extension deserves the opportunity to do more then sit in a tavern, craft or hunt NPCs. Right now, in it's current vision and state, that is all that is available to the vast majority of players in Tuluk unless they convert to a specific style of role and play, which is ridiculous.

People keep saying 'depth' and suggesting all the amazing things that happen in Tuluk. For starters, having seen a very broad section of Tuluks underbelly and been involved in no small amount of it personally, it is not so amazing or so deep that it should be held in reserve for an exclusive set of players who meet whatever 'quality' benchmark has been established by... well, people like you, really. Even the rare time there is some piece of amazing intrigue or happening, it still should not be for an exclusive minority.

And some of the 'Great Tuluki Players' no longer play the game. Some do, and are playing in Tuluk right now. I don't think there's much wrong with it.

If an area requires certain players to make it live and breath, it is broken and in need of fixing. Everyone can be a 'great' player in any area when given the opportunity and allowed enough freedom to add their own personal flair, something the current vision simply does not support.

I had a lot more written up, but my daughter decided to literally faceroll on the keyboard when I went to get coffee, so... you get the short hand version.

Thanks for the shorthand version!

I think you have an attitude towards Tuluk that will not likely change based on what I say. To each their own. I have a fantastic time playing in Tuluk because I get it. Its unfortunate that you don't. Tuluk could use a makeover like many other places in this 20+ year old hobby game we love and share. It ain't broke, just needs a tune up. And sorry, you haven't been playing the game long enough to have any perspective. How many PCs have you played in Tuluk? Allanak? The breadth of experience one, two, three pcs can have don't touch the tip of the iceberg that is Tuluk.

As far as quality, palomar nailed it on the head. Playing strictly to docs even to the detriment of your PC.

[Dakota]

I completely disagree here.  Public violence is shunned in Tuluk by all castes, and the bars are public places and Big Brother watches all the public places.

If that's the case, then why are their echoes that pop up in public places saying otherwise? I'm not saying its condoned, but theirs at least two bars in Tuluk that have something to the effect of: "a brawl breaks out" echoes. Not every place is the Sanctuary.

In fact in the warrens you hear some pretty savage echoes as well.

[musashi]

Yeah, FWIW the brawl code and brawling echos pop up in more taverns in Tuluk than not, actually.

[Harmless]

As far as quality, palomar nailed it on the head. Playing strictly to docs even to the detriment of your PC.

This is an interesting point. For whatever reason, I find it much more FUN for me as a player to play to the docs to my detriment in Allanak vs. Tuluk.

Something about knowing that I'm going to be jailed, interrogated, maybe outright killed, that my body will be dumped on a public pile for all to see, that people will talk about my death and why I was punished, and so on, just makes me WANT to play to my detriment in Allanak.

This leads me to a post I have been tempted to make, but have not so far because it's hard to get a word in on this thread. It is just more fun to play a commoner in Allanak than it is in Tuluk, from my experience. (20-30 PCs played total, at least 6 played mostly in Allanak and Tuluk each over at least 4 years. Sorry if my experience isn't enough for you, Reiloth).

Being disappeared might be satisfying and fun for the winners of the equation, but it is not fun for the potential losers, to have their character suddenly poof and have everyone assume that it was Kryl. Who wants to go out like that?

The problem is that for this, and many other reasons, being a commoner in Tuluk isn't as fun. This is why the hierarchical pyramid in Tuluk lacks a strong base and feels top-heavy. There are many ways this can be fixed ICly, but there have been no major changes to this problem in my years of playing. The fact that there seem to be more newbie commoners in Tuluk makes it worse. Newbies lack the experience to change their gameworld, they seek to fit in.

[Morrolan]

I understand Tuluk, but for reasons similar to Harmless's, I don't dig it.

OTOH, I think the North/South subtlety distinction is overdone. I've seen plenty subtlety in the South, and brutality in the North.

I'd say its not a 10:1 ratio of subtlety:brutality in the North and 10:1 of brutality:subtlety in the South. It's more like 6:4.

EDIT or maybe 7:3.

[Malken]

I have a feeling that the ratio of PCs who actually end up "disappeared" vs those PCs who end up dying to gortoks or storing is pretty minimal.

1:72 to be exact.

[Harmless]

I have a feeling that the ratio of PCs who actually end up "disappeared" vs those PCs who end up dying to gortoks or storing is pretty minimal.

1:72 to be exact.

If true, then that is more likely a function of the aforementioned unattractiveness of playing PCs at risk of being disappeared in Tuluk, and is therefore a statistic in favor my post rather than against it.

[Malken]

I have a feeling that the ratio of PCs who actually end up "disappeared" vs those PCs who end up dying to gortoks or storing is pretty minimal.

1:72 to be exact.

If true, then that is more likely a function of the aforementioned unattractiveness of playing PCs at risk of being disappeared in Tuluk, and is therefore a statistic in favor my post rather than against it.

Oh, I tend to agree with you, don't get me wrong. I think that the whole cycle of PCs actually buying licenses on other PCs and going through the whole motion of achieving a good ol' Tuluki assassination is also probably minimal, compared to just waiting for said PC to leave the gates and smacking them with your AI strength and clubs.

I'm not saying it never happens, but I think that when people suddenly stop seeing another PC, chances are that PC went out to die to something simple or simply stored.

[musashi]

I agree with that as well. I think super sekrit awesome assassinations are likely not as common as that one tembo with AI strength or the carru who got a lucky neck shot.

That's just the way the game is.

But I think that applies to Allanak as well. You're more likely to end up spider and scrab chow than you are to end up on the corpse pile.

[Irulan]

Someone explain to the noobs how Tuluk works.  

Also, if you're Tuluki born, you should have the inks.  Or a good reason why you don't, and are participating in that particular metagame.  By example, "Oh, I am a citizen of Tuluk, Faithful Lady, I was born right over there in the Warrens."  Two days later ...  "Oh, no, Lord Templar.  I've never even been to Tuluk!"

The fact that there hasn't been any real new Chosen Lords or Ladies of note in the last three years except for the two that have been there forever now (and I have absolutely nothing bad to say about them, these guys are geniuses!) should show you that many of us, even though we've played in Tuluk for HOURS and DAYS and YEARS are all a bunch of "clueless noobs" as you say. Most of the ones I've seen end up storing within a month, and that's being generous.

When's the last time you saw a new Faithful Lady as well?

The HEART of Tuluk is all about the Faithful Ladies and we barely ever see any PCs playing them anymore.

Sorry, I know that this quote is from a few pages ago, but I'm just going to slip a little aside in, as this isn't entirely accurate. There has been more than two long lived Chosen in the last three years. (not in the last year and a half or so I guess though) as there was an active long lived Chosen Lady (long lived as in longer than a year) from around Jan 2010 to summer 2011. I can speak a little bit from experience here, as I -loved- the role, and only stored her due to having a baby in RL. Playing an active clan leader/noble is almost impossible with a newborn. I think part of the problem with the retention rate is that it is just -hard- playing a leader, and a leader immersed in politics that aren't always easily seen on the surface is even more difficult. I'll admit it, I'm a Tuluk lover. I enjoy the culture, and the false front, and the barbed snark, and the heavy handed totalitarian regime. I don't think it is 'easy' by any stretch of the imagination, and you have to have patience and watch how things play out over the long term. And there are lots and lots of people that play in Tuluk that I don't think really even take the time to try to understand the culture. I love how Tuluk is the opposite of Allanak in the room descriptions and echos, and I love when you are in game and you find someone that clearly 'gets it' (not that I always get it all the time either, but it is just fun for me) and you can make a connection with them (either as friends or as foes). Tuluk isn't for everybody, and Allanak isn't for everybody, people enjoy different things, and I think it is neat that this game offers that to people.

- Irulan

[Red Ranger]

The quote you reference is from 2009. The thing that changed my opinion about Tuluk being a one shade fits all, monolithic culture of subtlety would be, the extra 4 years I now have under my belt playing there.

Since making that post, I got out from under the microcosm most PC's play in where you're in the bubble of upper class commoners rubbing elbows with nobility. I think I was playing a circle bard at the time of that post and still fairly new to the game, so the sentiment makes sense for the role I was in, but I've played warren rat breeds since then as well. I explored the different areas and soaked in some of the flavor echoes staff have put into the game there. I played in Under Tuluk when it was still around.

I'm not saying that there isn't a part of Tuluki society to which the statement I made in 2009 applies, I'm saying that there is more than just that one part, and you can generally read room descriptions and look to the world echoes to get a feel for what it's like in the area you're in.

You're going to great lengths to justify your apocryphal opinion that wide swaths of Tuluk's population would be easily accepting of public mob violence without citing any documentation.  Also, brief and spontaneous brawls are different than organized mobs of Salarri PCs beating down peons from Clan X.  It may happen from time to time!  But that doesn't mean it's socially accepted.

Let's start with the room echoes.  You're drawing a whole host of conclusions based on a scant few room echoes that come up every few hours, and you're choosing to ignore other echoes that literally show Big Brother (and Sister!) watching.  I guess your line of logic goes that 1) brawls are unsubtle and 2) there are echoes of brawls in Tuluk so 3) we can assume that the Imms therefore don't intend for all Tulukis to value subtlety.  I disagree with that chain of logic for a whole host of reasons, but I don't have to extrapolate and guess about the intent of the Imms, I can just go to the page that the Imms wrote specifically for Tuluki RP.  It's not a page for just "a part of Tuluki society to which the statement [you] made in 2009 applies."  It's the doc for all Tuluki players, not just for those in the Poets' Circle and the Sanctuary.

Within the city of Tuluk, social standing is an important part of day-to-day life. The things done and said by your character can influence your character's social status. As with many things, it is much easier to negatively impact one's status than it is to positively affect it. While there is no single indicator to determine one's own social status, there are telltale signs that can give some idea. If you are well-liked and respected within your caste, it is much easier to get things accomplished. Conversely, making a bad name for yourself can easily result in avoidance and hostility (in more extreme cases).

Depending on caste, social status can be influenced in different ways. The most important thing to keep in mind is subtlety. Overt, obvious actions are looked down upon as a general rule. Associating with the 'wrong crowd' (which, in Tuluk, includes magickers and southerners) can also cause a negative impact. Alternatively, working willingly with one of His Chosen or His Faithful as a partisan can cause a positive impact, assuming they are in good standing themselves. These are only a few ways that social standing can be affected, but these examples should be helpful.

As another example of not needing to guess about the Imm intent, I give you Nyr:

Tuluki culture bred this subtlety thing out of desperation.  They were occupied by a foreign power.  Given their more-obvious tribal roots, they took the subtle thing to an art form, and exalted it after they drove out the Allanaki folks.  I don't think it's so high and mighty as some make it look, but it is a part of the culture.  Tuluk strikes me as both excited and loathe to change things from status quo.  That is why most changes in Tuluk are forced, not gradual.

In Allanak and Tuluk, you can state whatever you want.
In Tuluk, if it offends someone, they'll most likely handle you later, and out of sight of the public, because that is the societal norm.  Doing otherwise isn't unheard of, but deviating from the societal norm on a habitual basis probably won't be good for your continued health.

Nyr didn't qualify by saying only the upper crust "bred this subtlety thing out of desperation." It wasn't only the upper crust that was "occupied by a foreign power" after all.

So sure, there are brawl echoes.  How do we make sense of it given the explicitly stated Imm opinions in the docs and on the GDB?  Well, just cuz there are brawls doesn't mean that most Tulukis approve.  Just cuz there are brawls doesn't mean that the perpetrators aren't dealt with in a subtly Tuluki way afterward.  And just cuz there are brawls doesn't mean that a mob of Salarri PCs publicly beating a peon of Clan X would be overlooked by the authorities or even by most Tulukis.  No one is stopping the Salarri PCs from having their public beatdown, but doing so "probably won't be good for [their] continued health."

But ... please note that I do not accept that bar brawls are universally shunned through out all of the city. I feel that if they were, the code would reflect that. As it stands, this is the first paragraph from the helpfile for brawl:

This command will cause your character to attempt to strike the named
person, presumably with the intention of doing harm.  This can only be used
in some seedier establishments which allow 'brawls', at least partially.

Type hit in the sanctuary and it tells you no. You can't brawl here. Ok so that's obviously not a seedy establishment. Type it in the Tembo Tooth, and it works. Ergo ...

By that reasoning, public murder is acceptable because the Imms haven't disabled the Kill command in public areas of Tuluk, and magickers are acceptable to Tulukis because the Imms haven't disabled the ability for players to make mages in Tuluk.  I obviously disagree, because the docs state otherwise.

I'm not saying that brawls don't happen in Tuluk.  I'm not saying that there isn't even mob violence sometimes in Tuluk.  What I am saying is that those two facts don't give a PC carte blanche to go start fights and then to complain about the negative consequences.  I've already shared my opinion, which is that it depends on many factors, and location is only one of them.  If the brawler PC has done their homework, maybe it'll go well for them.  My best advice, though, is to find out IC.  Get your Salarri PC friends together and go hand out beatdowns to PCs from Clan X in the bars and then see what happens in Tuluk. But remember:

...deviating from the societal norm on a habitual basis probably won't be good for your continued health.

On another note!

But even assuming for the sake of argument that all castes from every nook and cranny of Tuluk believed bar brawls were horribly taboo, the point I was actually making is here:

But anyway, more the actual meta point I was making, is that I would prefer low ranking PC's to draw upon the strength of their organazation by first drawing upon the other low ranking PC's in the clan around them for support at that level, rather than taking things as high as they can short of wishing up for staff to animate senior clan members as a go to move.

Bar brawls or no, there are I believe, plenty of things the minions can do at their level without needing to report "someone said a nasty thing to me" to a literate upper crust type PC, and have them get involved.

Yep.  But that has nothing to do with this thread, so maybe start a derail thread for this particular complaint of yours?

[Riev]

Some of you guys can be real, defensive assholes. Like, to the point where I'm sad and embarrassed I share this wonderful game's experience with you.

Stop trying to "win" the GDB, or "win" the discussion about Tuluk. Some people have specific feelings about it. After 10 fucking pages we GET that you really enjoy the city, and really understand your roles there. Congratulations. I'll throw you a party in my pants, you can all come by later.

Can we get back to actually -helping- the thread? Not just telling people who seem to not like Tuluk that their opinions are wrong or stupid or outdated?

[musashi]

Things about the Tuluki RP docs.

A bar brawl seems to me, not to be an extreme case of making a bad name for yourself since it's tolerated in seedier dives both by the militia and by the general patrons of the establishments since it echoes there as a regular occurance, and does not trigger the crim code.

Will being rough and tumble and seedy in Tuluk lower your social status? Yes. But I don't believe it says in the Tuluki docs that all Tulukis universally value their social status, or that they all struggle to maintain high social status because doing otherwise results in punative action. It just says it plays an important part of day to day life. And that's true. If you're a skeezy fellow with low social status, people who are not will look down on and avoid you, per the docs. Does being skeezy and having low social status merit hostility? Only in extreme cases.

So is it ok to throw a punch at someone you don't like in the Sanctuary or the Partisan Punch and get away with it? No.
It is ok to do so in the Tooth, the Firestorm, or the Burrow? Yes.
And the code reflects this.

There exists in Tuluk, both people with low status, and places for those people to exist without being targetted for it.

A quote from Nyr.

Nyr also said he didn't think it's so high and mighty as some make it look, as well. He also said that "doing otherwise" ie ... dealing with them now, publically rather than later, isn't unheard of. So in my mind, the answers to your concerns are in the things you're referencing. But I don't think they explictly state what you think they do. The idea that every bar brawl echo you see in game is dealt with afterwards by having the people involved disappeared or somehow repremanded such that they wouldn't ever do it again strkes me as ludacris on its face, for reasons I already mentioned about them being accepted by the virtual envionment and the criminal code.

By that reasoning, public murder is acceptable because the Imms haven't disabled the Kill command in public areas of Tuluk, and magickers are acceptable to Tulukis because the Imms haven't disabled the ability for players to make mages in Tuluk.  I obviously disagree, because the docs state otherwise.

I'm not sure what your point is here. The kill command isn't disabled, but the crim code does take notice of it when you use it (in a populated area). Thus we know killing is not acceptable to law enforcement or bystanders when they wittness it. Same with the cast command.

The hit comand, when enabled, allows you to hit someone in a bar without triggering the crim code ... thus we know it is not seen as unacceptable to law enforcement or bystanders, even in a populated area like a seedy tavern.

Your line of reasoning on this particular point is non sequitur I believe.

And lastly, I clarified why I thought the meta point I made was an issue larger in Tuluk than Allanak (thus on topic) when I first posted it.

I think I've made my line of reasoning as clear as I can, so aside from pointing out where it's being misrepresented, I don't think I need to harp on it anymore.

[Cutthroat]

I think there would be a significant portion of Tuluki people that really don't care about their social status enough to avoid being, or acting like, uncultured jerks. I think to some extent, Maslow's heirarchy of needs applies.



The kind of Tuluki that would care about social status, would tend to have a lot of the bottommost needs handled (physiological and safety-related, maybe even love/belonging). Now they are working in the Tuluki cultural sphere and they need to focus on esteem and self-actualization. Many PCs have the first two levels handled very quickly by doing a job, and the third by talking to other PCs. The reason why there is such a focus on social status in the docs is likely because it encourages a typical Tuluki player to participate in the world (and/or possibly underworld) of Tuluki social struggle.

The reason why you see echoes of screams cut short and jerks punching each other is because those vNPCs aren't concerned about the higher levels of Muk's Maslow's pyramid. People are getting mugged for food and that half-elf down the bar just looked at that Bynner funny. These are basic concerns compared to Tuluki political play - struggles between people with little or no consequence to the people with higher needs. Can a PC participate in those struggles? Absolutely - that's what I imagine players are asking for when they want to play a rough and gritty character in Tuluk. Your advance up the social ladder will be slow, if existent at all, but your playtime would still be fun.

And for what it's worth, a similar split exists in Allanak between grubby commoners, and nobility and the people who work for them. It's probably just more pronounced in Tuluk because Allanak tends toward the "basic struggle for survival" end while Tuluk tends more toward "the struggle for esteem and self-actualization" end.

[AmandaGreathouse]

Just to make a note of it here... rooms don't have the default ability for you to brawl in them. That has to be manually added, so clearly whoever built the places where you can do so... thought it was appropriate for such to happen there.

[Riev]

Cutthroat, have my children. Thank for for actively influencing the thread, and having good, positive ideas.

[Red Ranger]

A bunch of stuff about the code.

Musashi, we're going to have to agree to disagree.  You can decide that the code trumps the RP docs while I decide that the RP docs trump the code.  But I think someone else put it best recently:

Wow. When you go to code things get lame. When you RP? Things get amazing.

You seem intent on interpreting my argument as a blanket statement that all brawls in Tuluk are bad RP, but that's not what I've written.  What I've written, in fact, is that It Depends.  I can think of plenty of scenarios where a public brawl in a Tuluki bar could be "good RP."  I can also think of plenty of scenarios where a public brawl in a bar can lead to serious negative consequences for the PCs involved.  Like I've said, it really depends.

You're the one that seems to be arguing the absolute maxim that: public brawl in bar = always totally and completely kosher forever and ever.  The burden is on you to prove that expansive claim, but just because there are room echoes mentioning brawls and just because the code permits brawls in some places doesn't mean that the PCs doing it are immune to IC consequences, just like the vNPCs doing it aren't necessarily immune to IC consequences.

Better yet, find out IC!

[musashi]

I'm sorry Red Ranger but, that is not at all what I'm implying or saying, nor do I find it helpful to proclaim someone else's position.
I also never thought you were arguing that all brawls were bad all the time anymore than I was arguing that they are always ok.

We both have an "it depends" but they seem to be different.
I think our main difference is that your "it depends" seems to focus around the characters involved primarily.
While my "it depends" also incorperates the environment the characters are in.

To make a 'nakki example of it:

A templar might get really upset at a commoner who punched his aide in the face if his aide was in the Red Retreat or the Azure Dragon minding their own business.

But ...

A templar might get really upset at the aide even being in the Gaj in the first place, getting his or her slum on, let alone mouthing off to the drunk Bynners there and then expecting the templar to come in and clean up the aide's mess.

Any talk of code was just meant to support this environmental consideration. You'll get crim flagged for punching an aide in the face in the Azure Dragon because it does not support the brawl code. You will not, in the Gaj. Etc. I don't think this is a case of code trumping RP or RP trumping code, I think it's a case of code supporting RP.

I am generally less than thrilled when the "DO YOU KNOW WHO I AM?"'s get flung around from one commoner to another in the seedier parts of town. I think that's where we have our disagreement, or perhaps just our misunderstanding.

I pretty much agree with everything cutthroat just posted. Thanks for that!

[Patuk]

Bar brawls in Tuluk are for the lower social classes.

This translates ICly. Wealthy merchants or House servants won't brawl because it's beneath them, but when you're a lumberjack or a clay digger or a whore brawling is just fine. People won't look down on you for it, because it's expected. People -will- look down on you for being the lowly lumberjack or clay digger or whore that you are, but that's just the way things are. Brawling doesn't lower your status, it only reinforces your it.

[musashi]

Well it could lower it if you're a circle bard or a house guard ... but yes. I get what you're saying.

[Barzalene]

Cutthroat is right.

[Dakota]

w/e. I think Musashi and Cutthroat and Amanda summed it up well enough over the last few posts.

[musashi]

Hey hey hey. We can keep it civil yo, let's roll back the snark!

[Scarecrow]

*eats popcorn*

[Kismetic]

Hey hey hey. We can keep it civil yo, let's roll back the snark!

Tulukis.   

/snarkcrest out