Since we feel like talking about Tuluk again.

[Riev]

What I'm getting from Cutthroats post, is absolutely amazing.

What it sounds like to me, then, is that while Allanak might have more plots based on gith and spider incursions, Tuluk doesn't REALLY have that. Sure there is kryl but its not a constant RPT point. In Tuluk, most RP deals with political fallout, rumormongering, and the like, which most people aren't going to be a part of until they've kind of "proven" they're worth the time and effort to invest in.

If thats correct, that might be the "get it" part everyone is talking about. You don't have to "get" Tuluk, you just need to "survive" Tuluk until you're in it.

[Riev]

That being said, is there any way around the fallout of appearing bloodied, or dusty, or swearing around the "upper uppitys" of Tuluk? I'm not suggesting you go into the Sanctuary full of the blood of your enemies (especially since it SHOULD be the blood of your PATRON'S enemies) but its always felt like I can't get away with swearing unless I'm at the Storm or the Tooth, and even then I'm given a chastising look.

Is this just because everyone in Tuluk must be clean, proper, and speak like a gentlemen? Its not the 'seedy' vs 'not seedy' argument, its just that people take the "subtlety" thing so far, and its no longer "masking your intentions" as it is "Be perfect and upright that Muk may love thee". Was this originally how Tuluk was designed? Is this how it is now?

[Barzalene]

Rive, I may be wrong, but I think you should feel free to be dirty or sweaty. My most successful Tuluki was a surly, angry woman with no interest in pretending to be nice. I think the difference in the way I played her, than how I would have played her in Nak was that I didn't volunteer the opinions to her betters. Among her peers however ...

[Kismetic]

In the Sanctuary, I'd watch your ass, and even when you're sitting on a stool at the bar, you have to think about whose ass usually sits there.  That's how the Sanctuary works.  The Storm and the Tooth, I think the only organizations you have to worry about pissing off are Kadius and Kurac, respectively.  Kadius might not want you pissing off their upscale merchant clientele by being a fuckwad, but I'm fairly positive Kurac doesn't care what you do, short of stabbing someone in the neck.

[Bogre]

My legionnaire corporal threw an elf off a building.

Subtle that, bitch.

[musashi]

What I'm getting from Cutthroats post, is absolutely amazing.

What it sounds like to me, then, is that while Allanak might have more plots based on gith and spider incursions, Tuluk doesn't REALLY have that. Sure there is kryl but its not a constant RPT point. In Tuluk, most RP deals with political fallout, rumormongering, and the like, which most people aren't going to be a part of until they've kind of "proven" they're worth the time and effort to invest in.

If thats correct, that might be the "get it" part everyone is talking about. You don't have to "get" Tuluk, you just need to "survive" Tuluk until you're in it.

Ok so we've established Tuluk is RP oriented and Allanak is hack and slash. Glad we've cleared the air.  

...
... ...

Yes of course I'm joking.

[Kismetic]

Also, I'm just sorta like, wut, when I hear about Allanak dealing with gith incursions.  I thought they always went whining to Kurac.

And there's not a lot of kryl RPTs because, well, you missed the train on that, sorry. 

[Morrolan]

...but I'm fairly positive Kurac doesn't care what you do, short of stabbing someone in the neck.

I am more than fairly positive that is incorrect. Find out more IC.

[Kismetic]

...but I'm fairly positive Kurac doesn't care what you do, short of stabbing someone in the neck.

I am more than fairly positive that is incorrect. Find out more IC.

Why would Kurac care if you walked into one of their bars with dried blood from hunting?  Or if you were cursing, or being loud?  Or starting a bar brawl?  Seems pretty standard.

[Vwest]

As someone who's been here for over ten, I can tell you....

Some Houses in Allanak have one paragraph of documentation, and i'm not even sure if there is 'secret documentation' for them. They're pretty boring. There's literally a poop house. C'mon.

House Jal is an important part of Allanak, since no one there is enough of a tight-ass to pinch turds into diamonds like they do in Tuluk.

Tuluk maybe has -too- much documentation.

We agree. Tuluk has too much documentation and it stifles a lot of players, even older and experienced ones, it would seem. Sounds like it needs some scaling down to make it more approachable for a broader section of the player base.

Rules are fun to both bend and break, but living in a society that tends to kill (See: Disappear) rulebreakers makes it more fun to 'bend' the rules oftentimes.

What you enjoy does not equal what everyone else might enjoy. I personally find the entire system broken because every time a rule is bent, it becomes Templarate business number one. With more players (or scaling back and adjusting Tuluks documentation to better support a smaller player base), that would not be the case as enough else would be going on to let the small things slip past more often then not.

With the current 'one power clique' system (as there aren't enough people / sponsored roles to really support another), you just have a few people 'in' and everyone else is just rotating fodder, making characters, living a bit and then getting vanished for some truly asinine reasons.

I honestly find myself playing in Tuluk and not seeing it as 'broken' by any stretch of the imagination. Sure, it could be improved. So could Allanak, Luirs, Cenyr, the Canyons of Waste, the Grey Forest. Looks like they seem to improve over time, just takes a while.

I'm not hinting at minor improvements or adjustments, I'm suggesting ret-con some documents and adjusting Tuluks system to better function with a smaller number of players, done in such a way that we can return to what it is now when we have the player pool to support it without draining the rest of the game of PCs.

You'd be surprised what happens when you overturn the wrong rock, at the wrong time.

I really, really wouldn't, but good effort

I don't think it's the -amount- of players in Tuluk that can make it great. I think it's the -quality- of players in Tuluk that can make it great.

Define quality. What makes a player 'low quality' enough that they make Tuluk 'suck'? What makes a player 'good enough' to meet your standards for the area?

And do it without falling back on the Tuluki fan #1 cop-out of 'they don't get it', as all that does is reinforce my point that if so many people can't puzzle it out, it needs to be adjusted to make it more approachable for everyone.

As far as I'm concerned, anyone who logs in and makes the effort to maintain a three-dimensional character that grows and evolves is a quality player and by extension deserves the opportunity to do more then sit in a tavern, craft or hunt NPCs. Right now, in it's current vision and state, that is all that is available to the vast majority of players in Tuluk unless they convert to a specific style of role and play, which is ridiculous.

People keep saying 'depth' and suggesting all the amazing things that happen in Tuluk. For starters, having seen a very broad section of Tuluks underbelly and been involved in no small amount of it personally, it is not so amazing or so deep that it should be held in reserve for an exclusive set of players who meet whatever 'quality' benchmark has been established by... well, people like you, really. Even the rare time there is some piece of amazing intrigue or happening, it still should not be for an exclusive minority.

And some of the 'Great Tuluki Players' no longer play the game. Some do, and are playing in Tuluk right now. I don't think there's much wrong with it.

If an area requires certain players to make it live and breath, it is broken and in need of fixing. Everyone can be a 'great' player in any area when given the opportunity and allowed enough freedom to add their own personal flair, something the current vision simply does not support.

I had a lot more written up, but my daughter decided to literally faceroll on the keyboard when I went to get coffee, so... you get the short hand version.

[Fredd]

I disagree that Allanak is better for stealthies. more then half of my Master stealthies have been in Tuluk, and I always found it a bit easier to make a living that way there, as long as you know how the game is played.


That being said, I love the gangster feel of playing a rinthi too. How you struggle to eat and drink until you get good at whatever you do. That's a LOT of fun for me.

[Kismetic]

I don't know that Tuluk is really all that deep, as long as you aren't a full retard.  Sometimes, I witness things that are so subtle and clever it tickles, but usually, most of your average characters are normal people, behaving how they should.  There's nothing to 'get' if you read the docs.  Still, you're encouraged to ask questions.  Hearing a lot of desire to understand, and very little of inquiring towards what's confusing.

tl;dr - Tuluk is not Inception, the text experience.  It's just another police state

[greasygemo]

tl;dr - Tuluk is not Inception, the text experience.

I lol'd. Sigged.

[Patuk]

I've been thinking for a while. Would anyone agree that it'd be a good thing if drinks in places like the sanctuary were made more expensive than elsewhere? I know money isn't exactly scarce in PC circles, but.. You could make a token effort at least.

[Is Friday]

I've been thinking for a while. Would anyone agree that it'd be a good thing if drinks in places like the sanctuary were made more expensive than elsewhere? I know money isn't exactly scarce in PC circles, but.. You could make a token effort at least.

It is more expensive.

[Patuk]

I've been thinking for a while. Would anyone agree that it'd be a good thing if drinks in places like the sanctuary were made more expensive than elsewhere? I know money isn't exactly scarce in PC circles, but.. You could make a token effort at least.

It is more expensive.

It's not, as long as you're willing to wait for the serving girl.

[Morrolan]

Why would Kurac care if you walked into one of their bars with dried blood from hunting?  Or if you were cursing, or being loud?  Or starting a bar brawl?  Seems pretty standard.

Put words in my mouth much? 

Perhaps those are not the things that would bother Kurac.

[Kismetic]

Why would Kurac care if you walked into one of their bars with dried blood from hunting?  Or if you were cursing, or being loud?  Or starting a bar brawl?  Seems pretty standard.

Put words in my mouth much? 

Perhaps those are not the things that would bother Kurac.

Err, no?  Those were the previously cited complaints about Tuluki bars, I was pointing out that The Tembo's Tooth is known to be rough and tumble.

Easy, there, fella!

[Red Ranger]

I completely disagree here.  Public violence is shunned in Tuluk by all castes, and the bars are public places and Big Brother watches all the public places.  After all:

The most important thing to keep in mind is subtlety. Overt, obvious actions are looked down upon as a general rule.

Others may disagree, but I'd personally call a mob beating "unsubtle." If the scene is to lead to violence, then the proper Tuluki conclusion would be for the piqued Salarri peon PC to hire a licensed assassin to neatly and cleanly kill the offending peon from Clan X.

I also totally disagree with the notion that all violence in Tuluk is binary: nothing or straight to hiring an assassin to kill someone. I think there is a large level of gradation there as well, especially in the city's rougher areas. And I feel fairly comfortable that the virtual world available to experience IG at this moment supports that.

I agree with you, Musashi.  All violence in Tuluk isn't binary, and it's a good thing no one is making that claim.  But I still maintain that a mob of Salarri PCs marching into a bar to publicly beat up a peon from Clan X isn't very Tuluki. I didn't think this was a very controversial opinion for many reasons, including the document I cited earlier, but also based on the collective acknowledgement of other players... Like you, actually.

To me this "subtlety" always just seemed like a way of saying that Tuluk was in general, a collectivist culture, where the apperance of harmony within the group was more important than the desires of the individual, and everyone knew it and acted accordingly.

So if someone is pissing you off, you don't punch them in the face out right because that would mess up the appearance of things. You work your aggression out in less obvious ways that an outsider coming into the city wouldn't pick up on, but most of your friends would.

I find your quote there to be a very eloquent and concise explanation for Tuluki subtlety.  What changed your opinion since you made that post?

[Barzalene]

Manners change place to place, but emotions don't

[Barzalene]

Also people will be subtle in public, but less so with intimates.

[palomar]

Tuluk maybe has -too- much documentation.

We agree. Tuluk has too much documentation and it stifles a lot of players, even older and experienced ones, it would seem. Sounds like it needs some scaling down to make it more approachable for a broader section of the player base.

No, there is not too much documentation. Some of the documentation needs to be updated and revised, and also merged with the various changes staff have made over the years but haven't been included in the currently available versions. This is, in fact, a work in progress.

Rules are fun to both bend and break, but living in a society that tends to kill (See: Disappear) rulebreakers makes it more fun to 'bend' the rules oftentimes.

What you enjoy does not equal what everyone else might enjoy. I personally find the entire system broken because every time a rule is bent, it becomes Templarate business number one. With more players (or scaling back and adjusting Tuluks documentation to better support a smaller player base), that would not be the case as enough else would be going on to let the small things slip past more often then not.

With the current 'one power clique' system (as there aren't enough people / sponsored roles to really support another), you just have a few people 'in' and everyone else is just rotating fodder, making characters, living a bit and then getting vanished for some truly asinine reasons.

With more players, there'd be more room for sponsored roles, including Templar PCs. If 2-3 Templar PCs can keep things under such control, imagine what 5 would be able to do even if the overall number of PCs in Tuluk grows significantly. Some roles/concepts do draw more attention to themselves in Tuluk: Socially visible commoners (bards, GMH/noble employees), servants of the state (templar aides/Legionnaires), and those generally suspicious (foreigners, troublemakers etc).

I'm not sure what you mean with "one power clique", but it would probably require double the amount of players in the game to double the number of sponsored roles in either city-state. One could argue that there's just "one power clique" in Allanak too, and that it is similarly broken for the reasons you gave. The fact is that there is considerable overturn in sponsored roles from time to time, and it's not a Tuluk phenomenon only. For whatever it's worth, one shouldn't expect to get right in on things after two RL weeks of playing a sponsored role. The staff is usually happy to provide a v/NPC backdrop to make the world come more alive, if the situations feel too much like it's all about these few PCs - regardless of social rank.

PCs get disappeared for all sorts of reasons in Tuluk. If your experiences have been asinine, perhaps you should look to your PC's behavior. If you still consider the reasons asinine, speak with staff or file a complaint. They keep close track of all sponsored roles and do not tolerate abuse of power.

I honestly find myself playing in Tuluk and not seeing it as 'broken' by any stretch of the imagination. Sure, it could be improved. So could Allanak, Luirs, Cenyr, the Canyons of Waste, the Grey Forest. Looks like they seem to improve over time, just takes a while.

I'm not hinting at minor improvements or adjustments, I'm suggesting ret-con some documents and adjusting Tuluks system to better function with a smaller number of players, done in such a way that we can return to what it is now when we have the player pool to support it without draining the rest of the game of PCs.

Such as? It is worth noting that the major changes to noble/templar responsibilities and documentation in Tuluk were pushed through by PCs in 2006/2007 (with staff support, of course). Granted, there were a few more noble roles open back then, but it's not that different now. These things are not as stagnant as you seem to believe, and the conditions have had some changes through the years since the original introduction of the current system.

I don't think it's the -amount- of players in Tuluk that can make it great. I think it's the -quality- of players in Tuluk that can make it great.

Define quality. What makes a player 'low quality' enough that they make Tuluk 'suck'? What makes a player 'good enough' to meet your standards for the area?

And do it without falling back on the Tuluki fan #1 cop-out of 'they don't get it', as all that does is reinforce my point that if so many people can't puzzle it out, it needs to be adjusted to make it more approachable for everyone.

As far as I'm concerned, anyone who logs in and makes the effort to maintain a three-dimensional character that grows and evolves is a quality player and by extension deserves the opportunity to do more then sit in a tavern, craft or hunt NPCs. Right now, in it's current vision and state, that is all that is available to the vast majority of players in Tuluk unless they convert to a specific style of role and play, which is ridiculous.

People keep saying 'depth' and suggesting all the amazing things that happen in Tuluk. For starters, having seen a very broad section of Tuluks underbelly and been involved in no small amount of it personally, it is not so amazing or so deep that it should be held in reserve for an exclusive set of players who meet whatever 'quality' benchmark has been established by... well, people like you, really. Even the rare time there is some piece of amazing intrigue or happening, it still should not be for an exclusive minority.

In my opinion, a quality player is someone who tries to incorporate the documentation and the location's customs and traditions into their PC concept, always trying to keep true in their roleplay. A for effort, basically. If you don't even try to make your Tuluki different to your Allanaki, then I think you suck. If you say His Light just as you'd say His Shadow, without even considering what meaning your PC should realistically put into such a phrase, or if you hop down to Allanak for a weekend of fun with no real reason, or you buddy up with every southron breed passing by, then you're not making an effort in my book. When I started playing in 2001, my PCs were all over the place - and they didn't care if they were from Nak or Tuluk. I believe that everyone can improve in their roleplaying, through learning by doing, and by actively trying.

Claiming that tavern sitting or spam crafting are the only options available to those who don't "convert" to a specific style is just silly. Admittedly, as has been noted previously in this thread, some concepts are more difficult than others in Tuluk. Playing completely outside the law, for example.

Tuluk can be absolutely amazing, and the same is true for Allanak, and tribal play of all kinds. Hell, probably even Red Storm. Tuluk does have depth and not just in the sense that fewer things happen on the surface (like in-your-face powertrips in Nak - whose nobility also happens to value subtlety), but it depends on how the players behind the PCs decide to run things. It's not only for the Great Tuluki Players.

[Morrolan]

Perhaps those are not the things that would bother Kurac.

Err, no?  Those were the previously cited complaints about Tuluki bars, I was pointing out that The Tembo's Tooth is known to be rough and tumble.

Easy, there, fella!

Yep. And I'm pointing out (for historically good reasons) that while the TT might be rough and tumble, it has Kurac-specific rules that can be determined by thinking about it IC.

[musashi]

I completely disagree here.  Public violence is shunned in Tuluk by all castes, and the bars are public places and Big Brother watches all the public places.  After all:

The most important thing to keep in mind is subtlety. Overt, obvious actions are looked down upon as a general rule.

Others may disagree, but I'd personally call a mob beating "unsubtle." If the scene is to lead to violence, then the proper Tuluki conclusion would be for the piqued Salarri peon PC to hire a licensed assassin to neatly and cleanly kill the offending peon from Clan X.

I also totally disagree with the notion that all violence in Tuluk is binary: nothing or straight to hiring an assassin to kill someone. I think there is a large level of gradation there as well, especially in the city's rougher areas. And I feel fairly comfortable that the virtual world available to experience IG at this moment supports that.

I agree with you, Musashi.  All violence in Tuluk isn't binary, and it's a good thing no one is making that claim.  But I still maintain that a mob of Salarri PCs marching into a bar to publicly beat up a peon from Clan X isn't very Tuluki. I didn't think this was a very controversial opinion for many reasons, including the document I cited earlier, but also based on the collective acknowledgement of other players... Like you, actually.

To me this "subtlety" always just seemed like a way of saying that Tuluk was in general, a collectivist culture, where the apperance of harmony within the group was more important than the desires of the individual, and everyone knew it and acted accordingly.

So if someone is pissing you off, you don't punch them in the face out right because that would mess up the appearance of things. You work your aggression out in less obvious ways that an outsider coming into the city wouldn't pick up on, but most of your friends would.

I find your quote there to be a very eloquent and concise explanation for Tuluki subtlety.  What changed your opinion since you made that post?

The quote you reference is from 2009. The thing that changed my opinion about Tuluk being a one shade fits all, monolithic culture of subtlety would be, the extra 4 years I now have under my belt playing there.

Since making that post, I got out from under the microcosm most PC's play in where you're in the bubble of upper class commoners rubbing elbows with nobility. I think I was playing a circle bard at the time of that post and still fairly new to the game, so the sentiment makes sense for the role I was in, but I've played warren rat breeds since then as well. I explored the different areas and soaked in some of the flavor echoes staff have put into the game there. I played in Under Tuluk when it was still around.

I'm not saying that there isn't a part of Tuluki society to which the statement I made in 2009 applies, I'm saying that there is more than just that one part, and you can generally read room descriptions and look to the world echoes to get a feel for what it's like in the area you're in.

But even assuming for the sake of argument that all castes from every nook and cranny of Tuluk believed bar brawls were horribly taboo, the point I was actually making is here:

But anyway, more the actual meta point I was making, is that I would prefer low ranking PC's to draw upon the strength of their organazation by first drawing upon the other low ranking PC's in the clan around them for support at that level, rather than taking things as high as they can short of wishing up for staff to animate senior clan members as a go to move.

Bar brawls or no, there are I believe, plenty of things the minions can do at their level without needing to report "someone said a nasty thing to me" to a literate upper crust type PC, and have them get involved.

But ... please note that I do not accept that bar brawls are universally shunned through out all of the city. I feel that if they were, the code would reflect that. As it stands, this is the first paragraph from the helpfile for brawl:

This command will cause your character to attempt to strike the named
person, presumably with the intention of doing harm.  This can only be used
in some seedier establishments which allow 'brawls', at least partially.

Type hit in the sanctuary and it tells you no. You can't brawl here. Ok so that's obviously not a seedy establishment. Type it in the Tembo Tooth, and it works. Ergo ...

[Lizzie]

I've been thinking for a while. Would anyone agree that it'd be a good thing if drinks in places like the sanctuary were made more expensive than elsewhere? I know money isn't exactly scarce in PC circles, but.. You could make a token effort at least.

I don't think it'd make any difference anyway, since it's pretty common to go there and just not buy anything anyway. Or buy one drink, and nurse it for a couple of RL hours. I've even seen some people bring drinks in from the other bars.