Since we feel like talking about Tuluk again.

[Kismetic]

If there's one thing I learned about Tuluk, it's that nobody is above disappearing.  Your "power," as you perceive it, only determines how much leeway you're granted.  Make the correct mistake, and you'll find yourself like all the other suckers.

[BleakOne]

If there's one thing I learned about Tuluk, it's that nobody is above disappearing.  Your "power," as you perceive it, only determines how much leeway you're granted.  Make the correct mistake, and you'll find yourself like all the other suckers.

Normally I'd agree.

But that juggler man...

That juggler.

[musashi]

To play devil's advocate for a moment, there is a problem that I percieve with Tuluk. I think it's summed up by this:

I think this is a problem everywhere in Armageddon, just a byproduct of the PC microcosm really. I in no way think it's unique to Tuluk, or even started in Tuluk.

But in Tuluk, with the patron/partisan layer added on top of regular clan membership ... I have more than once felt like every Joe Blow commoner there at least thinks they have a literate person they can run and tattle to whenever someone in a bar says something mean to them.

Overall, I just wish that clan leaders everywhere were more dissmissive of the unimportant drama their minions get involved in when they go out drinking.

[Dakota]

The above times ten.

[X-D]

You Know, I really have never run into that. I mean, Oh the first part sure, but never any followup...least not on low ranking members.

The only thing I have ever run into is when playing a raider, raiding nobodies out miles and miles from the cities, when all of the sudden the militia/templars from a city state consider you public enemy #1 and Set out to hunt you down.  BUT, I have found staff to be more then receptive when they are informed of the situation.

My bet is, they would be just as receptive to a report on the situation in the rage comic as well. That is a major part of the staff job after all, keeping things in the game world reacting in a realistic fashion.

[Cutthroat]

Little digs and snide remarks between low-ranked employees are generally beneath the notice of a clan leader, but in Tuluk, where caste only tells a small part of the story about a person's place in the social structure, and most of the rest of it (where members of one caste are positioned in relation to one another) is based quite a lot on perception, politicking and storytelling, what is beneath notice can vary a lot. What might be innocent ribbing between A and B can be somewhat insulting between A and C. The example in the comic is obviously exaggerated for comedic effect but it does make a cogent point about the kind of very extreme overreaction and sudden escalation that would not be necessary. But that doesn't mean slower-escalating arguments with fewer consequences are not necessary either. If anything they make up a part of those back-room discussions where a part of Tuluki secretive RP happens.

[musashi]

But that doesn't mean slower-escalating arguments with fewer consequences are not necessary either. If anything they make up a part of those back-room discussions where a part of Tuluki secretive RP happens.

To use the comic as the stage for a hypothetical- here is what I'm thinking.

I don't think the comic should end with the girl from Salarr doing nothing. But I don't think it should end with the great merchant house family member sponsored role type guy getting involved either.

I think the girl should way her other low ranking Salarri clan mates, get them to come over, and have a good old fashioned beat down in the bar that the upper crust of society need never be bothered knowing occured in more than a passing conversational capacity.

Maybe that's the end of it.

Maybe the other hunter goes and gets his clannies for payback, and over time the bar braws get more and more heated, eventually someone murders someone else in a back alley, then the literate folk start to get involved.

[Desertman]

I even disappear NPCs that get out of line.

Dat mime...

[Red Ranger]

To play devil's advocate for a moment, there is a problem that I percieve with Tuluk. I think it's summed up by this:

ARMrage comic

I think this is a problem everywhere in Armageddon, just a byproduct of the PC microcosm really. I in no way think it's unique to Tuluk, or even started in Tuluk.

But in Tuluk, with the patron/partisan layer added on top of regular clan membership ... I have more than once felt like every Joe Blow commoner there at least thinks they have a literate person they can run and tattle to whenever someone in a bar says something mean to them.

Overall, I just wish that clan leaders everywhere were more dissmissive of the unimportant drama their minions get involved in when they go out drinking.

Well, here's the thing about Tuluk: it really does depend on the situation.  Tuluk is complex and nuanced.  As Cutthroat notes, there's much more to a social encounter than just castes, which are really big bins that have many fine gradations within.

Other considerations beyond caste include:
1) Employment and rank: Templarate or Surif employment being most important
2) Patronage: Templarate or Surif patronage being most important
3) Other known associations with the Faithful and Chosen
4) Public accomplishments: including festival victories or proof of excellence in one's "art"
5) Public embarrassments
6) Longevity
7) Location: public area or private? Which Tuluki faction controls that area?

...To name just a few. For a better sense of the relative impact of just #1 on a social situation, have a look at the Tuluki Social Rank Table.  I've also detailed some other considerations that might come into play in Tuluki social situations in a previous post.

So what factors might come into play in the aforementioned ARMrage comic where a peon of Clan X insults a peon of Salarr, the peon Salarri then complains to her Salarri Leader PC, who then complains to the Clan X Leader PC, who then reprimands the peon of Clan X? 

Well... Is Clan X socially above Salarr or below Salarr (e.g. T'zai Byn vs. Surif house)? Does Clan X have a history of friendship, antagonism, or neutrality with Salarr?  What about the history of the Salarri Leader PC with the Clan X Leader PC?  What about the Clan X peon, does he have a public history (slayer of magickers and victor at festivals vs. known to have been kicked out of clans before and known to kiss halfbreeds in public)?  Is the Salarri PC Leader good buddies with the owners of the bar? Is the Salarri PC Leader good buddies with the Governor of the Qynar where the bar sits?

The answers to all those questions (and more!) will impact how the scene plays out. Maybe Clan X is the an independent merchanty group that's been annoying Salarr for a long time, the Clan X Leader PC recently publicly insulted the Salarri Leader PC, the peon from Clan X is already publicly through to be a doofus, and the Salarri Leader PC is tight with the Governor of the Qynar where the bar sits. In that scenario the Salarri Leader PC might use the seemingly inconsequential bar banter from the peon of Clan X as an excuse to use some of his considerable social advantage (in this scenario) to push around Clan X to get his jollies.

Maybe then the Clan X Leader PC realizes that his clan is outclassed in this social confrontation, so he tells his peon of Clan X to back off before things get worse for them. After all, the Clan X Leader PC has social aspirations and he recalls that:

Within the city of Tuluk, social standing is an important part of day-to-day life. The things done and said by your character can influence your character's social status. As with many things, it is much easier to negatively impact one's status than it is to positively affect it.

So even though the clan leader PCs involved weren't "more dissmissive (sic) of the unimportant drama their minions get involved in when they go out drinking," maybe every PC involved had good reasons for what they did, and it all worked out exactly as it should for Tuluk?

To use the comic as the stage for a hypothetical- here is what I'm thinking.

I don't think the comic should end with the girl from Salarr doing nothing. But I don't think it should end with the great merchant house family member sponsored role type guy getting involved either.

I think the girl should way her other low ranking Salarri clan mates, get them to come over, and have a good old fashioned beat down in the bar that the upper crust of society need never be bothered knowing occured in more than a passing conversational capacity.

Maybe that's the end of it.

Maybe the other hunter goes and gets his clannies for payback, and over time the bar braws get more and more heated, eventually someone murders someone else in a back alley, then the literate folk start to get involved.

I completely disagree here.  Public violence is shunned in Tuluk by all castes, and the bars are public places and Big Brother watches all the public places.  After all:

The most important thing to keep in mind is subtlety. Overt, obvious actions are looked down upon as a general rule.

Others may disagree, but I'd personally call a mob beating "unsubtle." If the scene is to lead to violence, then the proper Tuluki conclusion would be for the piqued Salarri peon PC to hire a licensed assassin to neatly and cleanly kill the offending peon from Clan X.

[Desertman]

I understand below the surface Tuluk is all, "Creepy kill you silently and subtly."

I remember a Lirathan templar that caught one of my villains once, and she was so creepy, I remember it to this day. That scene really outlined what Tuluk TRULY is outside of the public eye for me.

I guess Tuluk just isn't my favorite flavor on the surface. On the surface, in the public eye, where the majority of players play, it feels like a Tolkien LOTR village. That's the best way I can explain it. It feels like Gondor on the surface to me.

Allanak feels like Mordor.

[palomar]

Clan leaders must carefully balance between allowing their minions to stand up for themselves, and to involve themselves in their minions' situations, as well as look after their own reputation and organization's standing.

Low-ranked employees and partisans must be careful, because their actions reflect on their employer/patron (which also goes the other way). Knowing just how much social status you get from your boss, and what it allows you to reasonably do and expect from others is very tricky. It is not all based on coded/official rank within your caste (or your boss' rank) but it's also based on how you are viewed by the rest of society. That view, social status, is built on reputation, accomplishments, achievements, skill (not necessarily coded) and so forth. Example: An Apprentice bard could have a much stronger social position than a Seeker bard, based on what was listed above plus potential partisanship arrangements.

Tuluk suffers when the finer aspects of social status are not taken into consideration, but it also prospers on the roleplay and realism level when more people, regarding of their PCs' standing, keep it in mind.

Part of what makes Tuluk difficult but also very entertaining and rewarding, in my opinion.

[Red Ranger]

I understand below the surface Tuluk is all, "Creepy kill you silently and subtly."

I remember a Lirathan templar that caught one of my villains once, and she was so creepy, I remember it to this day. That scene really outlined what Tuluk TRULY is outside of the public eye for me.

I guess Tuluk just isn't my favorite flavor on the surface. On the surface, in the public eye, where the majority of players play, it feels like a Tolkien LOTR village. That's the best way I can explain it. It feels like Gondor on the surface to me.

Allanak feels like Mordor.

That's fine!  We all have preferences and feelings.  You should just stop confusing your preferences and feelings for facts about how Tuluk is "easy" or "not hardcore."  Those are not facts, they're assertions that are provably false.

[Desertman]

I understand below the surface Tuluk is all, "Creepy kill you silently and subtly."

I remember a Lirathan templar that caught one of my villains once, and she was so creepy, I remember it to this day. That scene really outlined what Tuluk TRULY is outside of the public eye for me.

I guess Tuluk just isn't my favorite flavor on the surface. On the surface, in the public eye, where the majority of players play, it feels like a Tolkien LOTR village. That's the best way I can explain it. It feels like Gondor on the surface to me.

Allanak feels like Mordor.

That's fine!  We all have preferences and feelings.  You should just stop confusing your preferences and feelings for facts about how Tuluk is "easy" or "not hardcore."  Those are not facts, they're assertions that are provably false.

Gondor is easy compared to Mordor.

Also:

I have always felt this way...

Allanak = Hard-mode.

Tuluk = Vacation-mode.

I never stated it was a fact. I always stated it was how I felt.

Easy there silky-tree-hugger, I'm not bashing your pyramid.

Dat GDB, srs business.

[Barzalene]

I'm too lazy to quite. People sai a lot of good stuff about balancing interference from on high. I'm not sure anyone has spoken about individual specifics. I believe that how far you're willing to extend yourself for s minion depends not just on all the external factors mentioned above (and I'm not minimizing those) but also on the employee. If your employee is an ass, a source of annoyance or an under performer of higher rank you might be more than happy to see them hang themselves on their own petard. If you're a worthless piece of crap you might want to keep your whining to a minimum.

Conversely, you might extend yourself for that recruit with the potential and diligent work ethic. Especially, if he doesn't seem the sort to have started the trouble.

[Kismetic]

If I was a clan leader, my newbies would have to sink or swim, and they'd be too terrified to approach me about their petty drama for fear that I'd remove their fingers for wasting my time.

Maybe I should app that Kadian.  :T

I don't know that I've encountered that particular instance in Tuluk, by the way.  There is a lot of dramatics between party (and partisan) lines, but people are expected to handle their own shitcock, so to speak.

[musashi]

I completely disagree here.  Public violence is shunned in Tuluk by all castes, and the bars are public places and Big Brother watches all the public places.  After all:

The most important thing to keep in mind is subtlety. Overt, obvious actions are looked down upon as a general rule.

Others may disagree, but I'd personally call a mob beating "unsubtle." If the scene is to lead to violence, then the proper Tuluki conclusion would be for the piqued Salarri peon PC to hire a licensed assassin to neatly and cleanly kill the offending peon from Clan X.

Not all areas of Tuluk are so well cultured and refined. If one stands around in certain taverns and certain Qynar, the environment echos are anything but subtle. I am working off the assumption that if you're hanging out in a rough and tumble area, being rough and tumble is acceptable. The virtual environment certainly is.

I also totally disagree with the notion that all violence in Tuluk is binary: nothing or straight to hiring an assassin to kill someone. I think there is a large level of gradation there as well, especially in the city's rougher areas. And I feel fairly comfortable that the virtual world available to experience IG at this moment supports that.

I think taking the way people behave in the Poet's Circle and applying it across the entire span of the city can be just as bad as taking the way people behave in the Arebtorum of Allanak and trying to drop it into the Gaj.

But anyway, more the actual meta point I was making, is that I would prefer low ranking PC's to draw upon the strength of their organazation by first drawing upon the other low ranking PC's in the clan around them for support at that level, rather than taking things as high as they can short of wishing up for staff to animate senior clan members as a go to move.

[Fredd]

Just to chime in here... Having played heavily in Tuluk. If you believe that the people 'cleaning you up' or 'helping you out' or 'training you' or 'investing in you' are doing it to be nice. You are dead wrong. I have literally never seen anyone do it without some kind of return. Often you will see hunter types doing it to helpless looking PCs who say they're good at artisan stuff. You clothe and bathe this little artisan. Then you pump them to produce finished products out of your animal parts for big sid. If they run off on you, whatever you're out a few small and maybe you kill them later.

If you're an artisan merchanty type and you need shit from outside the walls. You go out shopping your local watering hole and dump for a grubby looking hunter whose wearing their shirt for armor. You throw some leather on them, point them in the direction of what you need. All of a sudden you're once again rolling in materials and sid.

Just because people 'help' you doesn't mean it's easy mode. It means YOU ARE BEING USED.

Edit - For merchants using hunter types. The turnover rate is really high, so if you could collect the bloodied and soiled gear after they die. It's more cost effective to give it to the next statistic you 'help'... That's pretty grim to me.

Big yes. A lot of shady types take in new shady types and help them, why? They want these shady types to do the crap they can't get caught doing. It's all about using people. It's just more subtle in Tuluk then it is in Allanak. But just cause you can't see the leash on your throat, doesn't mean it isn't there.

Edit: And just because someone is smiling and being nice to you in public, doesn't mean they aren't robbing your apartment, picking your pocket, and plotting your assasination in private. Crocodile smiles my friends.

[Red Ranger]

Gondor is easy compared to Mordor.

That's just your feeling, man. My feeling is that Mordor is a boring one dimensional place where everyone is "evil" cuz Rawr!  That's cool from a hack 'n slashy D&D or videogame perspective where the bad guys are all ugly, they all worship some evil god, and they all literally have "evil" written under "alignment" on their character sheets.

My preference, though, is for more nuance and complexity such that everything that looks nice isn't necessarily nice underneath and where the threats don't only come from the big ugly evil beasties but also from those who are supposed to be trusted and obeyed. Someplace like, well, Gondor during the War of the Ring for instance. Other examples would be much of the Song of Ice and Fire series by George R.R. Martin, and historical fiction such as the Masters of Rome series about late Republican and early Imperial Rome by Colleen McCullough.

Also:

I have always felt this way...

Allanak = Hard-mode.

Tuluk = Vacation-mode.

I never stated it was a fact. I always stated it was how I felt.

You NEVER stated it was a fact?  "Never" is a long time.  Hmm.  Oh!  Here's another post of yours...

You ever really TRIED to be gritty and foul in Tuluk?

I have with a few characters.

Two of them resulted in Lirathan templars actually pulling me aside and giving me etiquette lessons.

One of them gave me pants.

Both times I was never in a fancy tavern. Both times the templar wasn't even present. My naughty verbal gritty exploits actually resulted in me being reported to authorities, and authorities ACTUALLY responded, AND there weren't even any threats, I was just being foul.

Now, say the same things (and I have) in the Gaj in Allanak, no one notices.

Let's be honest. Tuluk is easy mode. My Allanaki characters go to Tuluk to vacation.

Let's be honest, dat GDB... turns out to have more than 2 days worth of old posts.

[Desertman]

Gondor is easy compared to Mordor.

That's just your feeling, man. My feeling is that Mordor is a boring one dimensional place where everyone is "evil" cuz Rawr!  That's cool from a hack 'n slashy D&D or videogame perspective where the bad guys are all ugly, they all worship some evil god, and they all literally have "evil" written under "alignment" on their character sheets.

My preference, though, is for more nuance and complexity such that everything that looks nice isn't necessarily nice underneath and where the threats don't only come from the big ugly evil beasties but also from those who are supposed to be trusted and obeyed. Someplace like, well, Gondor during the War of the Ring for instance. Other examples would be much of the Song of Ice and Fire series by George R.R. Martin, and historical fiction such as the Masters of Rome series about late Republican and early Imperial Rome by Colleen McCullough.

Also:

I have always felt this way...

Allanak = Hard-mode.

Tuluk = Vacation-mode.

I never stated it was a fact. I always stated it was how I felt.

You NEVER stated it was a fact?  "Never" is a long time.  Hmm.  Oh!  Here's another post of yours...

You ever really TRIED to be gritty and foul in Tuluk?

I have with a few characters.

Two of them resulted in Lirathan templars actually pulling me aside and giving me etiquette lessons.

One of them gave me pants.

Both times I was never in a fancy tavern. Both times the templar wasn't even present. My naughty verbal gritty exploits actually resulted in me being reported to authorities, and authorities ACTUALLY responded, AND there weren't even any threats, I was just being foul.

Now, say the same things (and I have) in the Gaj in Allanak, no one notices.

Let's be honest. Tuluk is easy mode. My Allanaki characters go to Tuluk to vacation.

Let's be honest, dat GDB... turns out to have more than 2 days worth of old posts.

Amended,

I haven't stated in the last five months that Tuluk was "easy" as a fact.

You got me, five months ago I told a inside joke aimed at someone else that you aren't "in the know" about, obviously, and then made a statement I knew would get a rise out of them for chuckles. They played a Lirathan templar, I know them IRL, they love Tuluk (they are the ones who gave me the referenced pants   ), the easy mode comment was intended to give them and I both a laugh.

Is there anything else you need me to explain to you? If you want, I will let you win the GDB at this point.

[Red Ranger]

Amended,

I haven't stated in the last five months that Tuluk was "easy" as a fact.

You got me, five months ago I told a inside joke aimed at someone else that you aren't "in the know" about, obviously, and then made a statement I knew would get a rise out of them for chuckles. They played a Lirathan templar, I know them IRL, they love Tuluk (they are the ones who gave me the referenced pants  ), the easy mode comment was intended to give them and I both a laugh.

Is there anything else you need me to explain to you? If you want, I will let you win the GDB at this point.

Thanks for asking!  Yes, you could explain why you feel that it's a problem that in Tuluk PCs can do "bad things" such as bribery, theft, extortion, and killing and yet not be criminals.  Would you feel that Tuluk would be fun for you if bribery, theft, extortion, and killing still remained legal but, say, wearing green were made illegal in Tuluk?  Could you get your "I bow to no man!" fix from your PC wearing green in Tuluk?

I don't think I could win the GDB, not with such stiff competition. I mean, you post over 20 times (!) more frequently than I do, for starters.  I lack focus too, cuz unless prompted I don't think about winning the GDB and I certainly don't mention it frequently in my posts, or how "Dat GDB" is "srs business." I don't even have one lousy inside joke that I share with the "in the know" cool kid GDBers!  Unfortunately for me, the evidence speaks for itself.  Thanks for the consideration, though!

[Desertman]

Also random: With the polarities surrounding the north and the south out of character, I would think we would see more wars IG.

I hope with the increased population, which appears to still be on the rise, we might see some more large scale conflicts on the table.  

I'm not saying Allanak sent those red-tabards running in the Copper War, but I am saying, get back to your land of rainbows and bunnies before you get your neatly manicured hand slapped again for trying to reach into Poppa-Tek's cookie jar.

[Desertman]

Amended,

I haven't stated in the last five months that Tuluk was "easy" as a fact.

You got me, five months ago I told a inside joke aimed at someone else that you aren't "in the know" about, obviously, and then made a statement I knew would get a rise out of them for chuckles. They played a Lirathan templar, I know them IRL, they love Tuluk (they are the ones who gave me the referenced pants  ), the easy mode comment was intended to give them and I both a laugh.

Is there anything else you need me to explain to you? If you want, I will let you win the GDB at this point.

Thanks for asking!  Yes, you could explain why you feel that it's a problem that in Tuluk PCs can do "bad things" such as bribery, theft, extortion, and killing and yet not be criminals.  Would you feel that Tuluk would be fun for you if bribery, theft, extortion, and killing still remained legal but, say, wearing green were made illegal in Tuluk?  Could you get your "I bow to no man!" fix from your PC wearing green in Tuluk?

I don't think I could win the GDB, not with such stiff competition. I mean, you post over 20 times (!) more frequently than I do, for starters.  I lack focus too, cuz unless prompted I don't think about winning the GDB and I certainly don't mention it frequently in my posts, or how "Dat GDB" is "srs business." I don't even have one lousy inside joke that I share with the "in the know" cool kid GDBers!  Unfortunately for me, the evidence speaks for itself.  Thanks for the consideration, though!

Take a step back...breathe...I'm starting to worry about you. 

[Kismetic]

A global war sounds about the most boring thing imaginable.  Maybe if we had a million subscriptions, like WoW.  Instead, it's forty characters dead in a week from an unimpressive conflict that highlights a few dull points, and lets a few tools be more massive tools for a brief moment in time.  Then they put down their swords again, and go back to their grebbing.  The tools go back to their respective homes and brag about the dozen or so people that died, and wow, what a war you had with those other guys.

Snore

[LauraMars]

I didn't want to have to do this.

[Desertman]

I like wars because some of the best relationships I have ever forged with other characters in game came from fighting along side them and surviving amazing odds with them.

I've seen it several times in game. You take two people who don't like each other. Let them survive some event where maybe a few people die but they make it out alive together.

Instant lifelong friendships.

I love that.

Oh, I also like being able to shout "Shitcock!" in the middle of battle, because I'm from Allanak, and that's what I do. Deal with it.