Since we feel like talking about Tuluk again.

[Jeshin]

Just to chime in here... Having played heavily in Tuluk. If you believe that the people 'cleaning you up' or 'helping you out' or 'training you' or 'investing in you' are doing it to be nice. You are dead wrong. I have literally never seen anyone do it without some kind of return. Often you will see hunter types doing it to helpless looking PCs who say they're good at artisan stuff. You clothe and bathe this little artisan. Then you pump them to produce finished products out of your animal parts for big sid. If they run off on you, whatever you're out a few small and maybe you kill them later.

If you're an artisan merchanty type and you need shit from outside the walls. You go out shopping your local watering hole and dump for a grubby looking hunter whose wearing their shirt for armor. You throw some leather on them, point them in the direction of what you need. All of a sudden you're once again rolling in materials and sid.

Just because people 'help' you doesn't mean it's easy mode. It means YOU ARE BEING USED.

Edit - For merchants using hunter types. The turnover rate is really high, so if you could collect the bloodied and soiled gear after they die. It's more cost effective to give it to the next statistic you 'help'... That's pretty grim to me.

[Dakota]

If you want to play a gritty, shady, rough-and-tumble PC in Tuluk that's seeped in crime..

Tuluk is hard mode.

I encourage it though. I think some people tend to regard Tuluk like being a whole city like the Sanctuary. It's not all sunshine and roses and shouldn't (IMO) be regarded as such.

That being said, it's a far cry from the Rinth and it's shady area's shouldn't ever degenerate into that.

But.. I wonder if -part- of UnderTuluk would ever be drained naturally... <.<

[Kismetic]

I liked palomar's post about Under Tuluk just being physically underground, more than Tuluk's actual underground.  No doubt a lot of interesting things down there, things that we'll never again Find Out IC.  But eh, whatever.

[Booya]

I think if you choose to believe all the surface sunshine, smiles and free bounty for all in Tuluk, more fool you. (I mean you as a player, not whether you have your character only see that.)

Playing paranoid is so much more fun (and in keeping!).

[Red Ranger]

It saves me time if I just quote from my prior posts en masse:

So, after reading the posts from the people that don't like Tuluk, I'm now confused.  Does Tuluk suck because it's easy mode where everything is handed to you on a platter... or does it suck because it's hard mode where only elitist Art Majors can get in on the action?

Also:

It appears to me that the people that think that there can't be "grit" in Tuluk are the ones that don't really understand Tuluk.  There's plenty of potential for grit, if by "grit" one means lower class life that is dusty and dingy and desperate.  However, if by "grit" one means the ability to act like a total f**kwad without having to face dire IC consequences, then there isn't much grit in Tuluk.

In my opinion, one major difference between Allanak and Tuluk is in the involvement of the Powers That Be.  In Allanak, the Powers that Be won't lift a finger unless you're directly bothering them.  You can live or die or barbecue dead neighbors on the curbside and the Powers That Be won't care, as long as you aren't injuring them, making them look bad, or making more work for them. Therefore you can go around yelling sh*tc*ck! to your heart's content, and as long as you don't cause trouble for one of those Powers That Be, you're in the clear.  Tuluk, however, is different because the Power That Be care about you.  They care enough to watch your every move.  Unlike in Allanak where you can get by just by not drawing attention to yourself, in Tuluk you can get in trouble for not drawing enough attention to yourself.  If you don't sing loudly enough in church on Sunday, you might just have to visit Room 101 and learn what it really means to love Big Brother.

Allanak is openly violent and tumultuous like the movies Escape from New York or No Escape, and the Powers That Be are the ones with the guns.  Tuluk is like the novel 1984 or the movie Equilibrium, where the violence is institutional and out of the public eye.  Not everyone understands or appreciates the differences, and if you want to go around yelling sh*tc*ck! at people in Tuluk you're going to find yourself assassinated or disappeared.  That's the way it's supposed to be in Tuluk.  And I think that's pretty hardcore.

But maybe there's a different definition of "grit" in this new thread:

Edited here to Add: Part of the hard-mode to Tuluk would be the unfailing ability for Tuluk to pretty much always catch you doing bad things. I find it infinitely harder to play a criminal element in Tuluk. I guess that could be considered a "hard-mode" feature of Tuluk. It seems that the ONLY way to play a villain in Tuluk is to get the Templarate's permission first, and then, it isn't really a villain anymore.

It all depends on what players mean by "criminal" or "villain." It's very possible to do "bad things" to other PCs in Tuluk, things such as bribery, theft, extortion, or killing. It's so possible it's even legal! So the availability of those actions, which I would personally categorize as "bad things," doesn't seem to be the issue for the haters. Those "bad things" things are already available and accessible.

What seems to be the issue is actually the need for "permission." IMO the need for "permission" is overblown by many players, but the complaints about it are very telling. Those complaining aren't really asking for more "grit" IMO, what they're asking for is the ability to play a blustery "I bow to no man!" PC in Tuluk and yet to more easily escape the swift and possibly lethal IC consequences. In Allanak it's possible to play those Wild West gunslinger archetypes or Ayn Rand rugged individualists and have them survive for a while even as they yell sh*tc*ck! at everyone. Yet when the heat gets to be too much they can flee to the Labyrinth. Guess what, though? Tuluk is different. It's harder. It's an oppressive and intrusive police state more akin to Oceania from 1984 or to the Matrix. Unfortunately for the haters they're not playing Neo and they don't get to stick it to The Man. They're playing Winston Smith.

Sorry?

[musashi]

Epic post Red Ranger.

[Desertman]

Just to chime in here... Having played heavily in Tuluk. If you believe that the people 'cleaning you up' or 'helping you out' or 'training you' or 'investing in you' are doing it to be nice. You are dead wrong. I have literally never seen anyone do it without some kind of return. Often you will see hunter types doing it to helpless looking PCs who say they're good at artisan stuff. You clothe and bathe this little artisan. Then you pump them to produce finished products out of your animal parts for big sid. If they run off on you, whatever you're out a few small and maybe you kill them later.

So, you be nice to me, and I'll be nice to you. Sounds like an episode of Barney and Friends. Nothing wrong with it. I'm just saying. That isn't exactly sinister murder, corruption, betrayal. That is a basic business transaction between two agreeing parties that both benefit. To make it better, they are in the north where there are many more resources so both of these parties can benefit more readily. You just described a best possible peaceful scenario for a Zalanthas business transaction.

If you're an artisan merchanty type and you need shit from outside the walls. You go out shopping your local watering hole and dump for a grubby looking hunter whose wearing their shirt for armor. You throw some leather on them, point them in the direction of what you need. All of a sudden you're once again rolling in materials and sid.

Same thing...

Just because people 'help' you doesn't mean it's easy mode. It means YOU ARE BEING USED.

........It is still mutually beneficial in an area with vast resources that provide both ends of the spectrum with profits based off of the transaction. Being used, and making a profit from it yourself. That sounds like a great way to be used. Use me more.


If your point is, "Well, when we make these mutually beneficial transactions with each other, I am thinking, "Haha, I got you now stupid hunter, you are going to work for me"", well, that is only "hard mode" in your character's mind. To the other guy, he is happy to be working with you most likely.

It's like Dr. Evil thinking he is "evil", when everyone else is going, "Meh, he's not really that sinister."

[Desertman]

It all depends on what players mean by "criminal" or "villain." It's very possible to do "bad things" to other PCs in Tuluk, things such as bribery, theft, extortion, or killing. It's so possible it's even legal! So the availability of those actions, which I would personally categorize as "bad things," doesn't seem to be the issue for the haters. Those "bad things" things are already available and accessible.

What seems to be the issue is actually the need for "permission." IMO the need for "permission" is overblown by many players, but the complaints about it are very telling. Those complaining aren't really asking for more "grit" IMO, what they're asking for is the ability to play a blustery "I bow to no man!" PC in Tuluk and yet to more easily escape the swift and possibly lethal IC consequences. In Allanak it's possible to play those Wild West gunslinger archetypes or Ayn Rand rugged individualists and have them survive for a while even as they yell sh*tc*ck! at everyone. Yet when the heat gets to be too much they can flee to the Labyrinth. Guess what, though? Tuluk is different. It's harder. It's an oppressive and intrusive police state more akin to Oceania from 1984 or to the Matrix. Unfortunately for the haters they're not playing Neo and they don't get to stick it to The Man. They're playing Winston Smith.

Sorry?

This is exactly my point....

If the authorities sanction it, you are no longer a criminal element. You are acting completely within the law. Now, is what you are doing possibly a moral issue? Maybe, based off of RL moral values I guess, and depending on what your character's specific moral values may be. But, you are basically Lawful Chaotic Evil. You aren't a criminal.

[Red Ranger]

This is exactly my point....

If the authorities sanction it, you are no longer a criminal element. You are acting completely within the law. Now, is what you are doing possibly a moral issue? Maybe, based off of RL moral values I guess, and depending on what your character's specific moral values may be. But, you are basically Lawful Chaotic. You aren't a criminal.

So you concede that in Tuluk bribery, theft, extortion, and killing are all accessible and that "gritty" RP meaning lower class life that is dusty and dingy and desperate is also accessible... Yet you're upset because when you rob and kill PCs in Tuluk it's not technically illegal?  The fact that it's legal is just taking out ALL the fun for you?

p.s. I think you mean Lawful Evil?

[LauraMars]

It saves me time if I just quote from my prior posts en masse:

So, after reading the posts from the people that don't like Tuluk, I'm now confused.  Does Tuluk suck because it's easy mode where everything is handed to you on a platter... or does it suck because it's hard mode where only elitist Art Majors can get in on the action?

Also:

It appears to me that the people that think that there can't be "grit" in Tuluk are the ones that don't really understand Tuluk.  There's plenty of potential for grit, if by "grit" one means lower class life that is dusty and dingy and desperate.  However, if by "grit" one means the ability to act like a total f**kwad without having to face dire IC consequences, then there isn't much grit in Tuluk.

In my opinion, one major difference between Allanak and Tuluk is in the involvement of the Powers That Be.  In Allanak, the Powers that Be won't lift a finger unless you're directly bothering them.  You can live or die or barbecue dead neighbors on the curbside and the Powers That Be won't care, as long as you aren't injuring them, making them look bad, or making more work for them. Therefore you can go around yelling sh*tc*ck! to your heart's content, and as long as you don't cause trouble for one of those Powers That Be, you're in the clear.  Tuluk, however, is different because the Power That Be care about you.  They care enough to watch your every move.  Unlike in Allanak where you can get by just by not drawing attention to yourself, in Tuluk you can get in trouble for not drawing enough attention to yourself.  If you don't sing loudly enough in church on Sunday, you might just have to visit Room 101 and learn what it really means to love Big Brother.

Allanak is openly violent and tumultuous like the movies Escape from New York or No Escape, and the Powers That Be are the ones with the guns.  Tuluk is like the novel 1984 or the movie Equilibrium, where the violence is institutional and out of the public eye.  Not everyone understands or appreciates the differences, and if you want to go around yelling sh*tc*ck! at people in Tuluk you're going to find yourself assassinated or disappeared.  That's the way it's supposed to be in Tuluk.  And I think that's pretty hardcore.

But maybe there's a different definition of "grit" in this new thread:

Edited here to Add: Part of the hard-mode to Tuluk would be the unfailing ability for Tuluk to pretty much always catch you doing bad things. I find it infinitely harder to play a criminal element in Tuluk. I guess that could be considered a "hard-mode" feature of Tuluk. It seems that the ONLY way to play a villain in Tuluk is to get the Templarate's permission first, and then, it isn't really a villain anymore.

It all depends on what players mean by "criminal" or "villain." It's very possible to do "bad things" to other PCs in Tuluk, things such as bribery, theft, extortion, or killing. It's so possible it's even legal! So the availability of those actions, which I would personally categorize as "bad things," doesn't seem to be the issue for the haters. Those "bad things" things are already available and accessible.

What seems to be the issue is actually the need for "permission." IMO the need for "permission" is overblown by many players, but the complaints about it are very telling. Those complaining aren't really asking for more "grit" IMO, what they're asking for is the ability to play a blustery "I bow to no man!" PC in Tuluk and yet to more easily escape the swift and possibly lethal IC consequences. In Allanak it's possible to play those Wild West gunslinger archetypes or Ayn Rand rugged individualists and have them survive for a while even as they yell sh*tc*ck! at everyone. Yet when the heat gets to be too much they can flee to the Labyrinth. Guess what, though? Tuluk is different. It's harder. It's an oppressive and intrusive police state more akin to Oceania from 1984 or to the Matrix. Unfortunately for the haters they're not playing Neo and they don't get to stick it to The Man. They're playing Winston Smith.

Sorry?

I like this post.  It's a great example of what Tuluk should be like in an ideal world.  I'd like to play in a Tuluk like this.

However, this play model relies heavily on the Powers That Be to really BE Big Brother, and I feel that this often does not happen to the extent that it should.  It's hard to run a city state according to a specific ideal when your play model relies on the actions of two or three pcs to drive a feeling of suppression, dystopia, and paranoia.  

Perhaps if more of Tuluk was set up to support the vision of a dystopian, instrusive police state in ambient ways, I'd feel more like your vision of Tuluk is a reality for the rest of the playerbase.  Allanak feels like a ravaged desert city with an oppressive, fascist government run by an evil sorcerer king because it's written that way - there are corpses in the streets, templars with whips, subjugated slaves, starving beggars.  

Tuluk's first impression is one not of dystopia, but of art and music, light and beauty - and this is the impression that the most players seem to have, to quite a deep level.  These things may be a huge part of Tuluki culture, and that's fine and I love it, but personally, I'd rather be highly aware of the police state as a player, even as my brainwashed commoner slavishly worships the Sun King.  

I don't want to pretend this dystopian government exists but never see evidence of it - I want to see it exist, and pretend it doesn't exist.

Just my two cents.

[Desertman]

This is exactly my point....

If the authorities sanction it, you are no longer a criminal element. You are acting completely within the law. Now, is what you are doing possibly a moral issue? Maybe, based off of RL moral values I guess, and depending on what your character's specific moral values may be. But, you are basically Lawful Chaotic. You aren't a criminal.

So you concede that in Tuluk bribery, theft, extortion, and killing are all accessible and that "gritty" RP meaning lower class life that is dusty and dingy and desperate is also accessible... Yet you're upset because when you rob and kill PCs in Tuluk it's not technically illegal?  The fact that it's legal is just taking out ALL the fun for you?

p.s. I think you mean Lawful Evil?

Oops, yes, Lawful Evil.

Yes, the fact it isn't illegal makes you no longer a criminal. That is my point. I never said you couldn't kill, steal, or extort, all I said was you have to do it while the powers on high give you a good little rub on your good little head for being a good little boy.....

[LauraMars]

This is exactly my point....

If the authorities sanction it, you are no longer a criminal element. You are acting completely within the law. Now, is what you are doing possibly a moral issue? Maybe, based off of RL moral values I guess, and depending on what your character's specific moral values may be. But, you are basically Lawful Chaotic. You aren't a criminal.

So you concede that in Tuluk bribery, theft, extortion, and killing are all accessible and that "gritty" RP meaning lower class life that is dusty and dingy and desperate is also accessible... Yet you're upset because when you rob and kill PCs in Tuluk it's not technically illegal?  The fact that it's legal is just taking out ALL the fun for you?

p.s. I think you mean Lawful Evil?

Oops, yes, Lawful Evil.

Yes, the fact it isn't illegal makes you no longer a crimnal. That is my point.

You'll still be a hunted criminal if you don't ask for permission first.

Just don't ask for permission!

I never do!  SHITCOCK

[Lizzie]

Am I the only one who "misinterprets" the whole licensing thing? Or am I the only one who does -not- "misinterpret" it?

From my understanding, the license isn't permission, at all. Burglary is against the law in Tuluk. It's still against the law, even if you have a license. If you get caught, you will still be "caught" and there will still be consequences.

HOWEVER - those consequences will be marginal compared to an unlicensed burglar. For instance:

If you're licensed and get caught, the templar might say to the victim "It never happened. We shall never speak of it again."

Or, the templar might tell the burglar, "Naughty naughty, try harder next time, and don't pick someone with such good perception."

Or, the templar might tell the burglar, "That was the sloppiest job I've EVER heard - give me 100 sids for a donation to the cause" and then he gives the victim 100 sids to shut him up.

If you are NOT licensed, you might end up in jail for 3 game-days, be fined 100 sids for breaking the law, and be required to pay another 500 sids for a license.

And so on and so forth - depending on the crime, the criminal, the templar, and the victim. A licensed burglar who breaks into the Winrothol estate and burglarizes Joe Winrothol's #1 aide's locker - is not going to get off scott free IF he gets caught. UNLESS he was sent to do this job by Sue Tenneshi, who paid the templar an extra "donation" to turn his head.

[Pale Horse]

Am I the only one who "misinterprets" the whole licensing thing? Or am I the only one who does -not- "misinterpret" it?

From my understanding, the license isn't permission, at all. Burglary is against the law in Tuluk. It's still against the law, even if you have a license. If you get caught, you will still be "caught" and there will still be consequences.

HOWEVER - those consequences will be marginal compared to an unlicensed burglar. For instance:

If you're licensed and get caught, the templar might say to the victim "It never happened. We shall never speak of it again."

Or, the templar might tell the burglar, "Naughty naughty, try harder next time, and don't pick someone with such good perception."

Or, the templar might tell the burglar, "That was the sloppiest job I've EVER heard - give me 100 sids for a donation to the cause" and then he gives the victim 100 sids to shut him up.

If you are NOT licensed, you might end up in jail for 3 game-days, be fined 100 sids for breaking the law, and be required to pay another 500 sids for a license.

And so on and so forth - depending on the crime, the criminal, the templar, and the victim. A licensed burglar who breaks into the Winrothol estate and burglarizes Joe Winrothol's #1 aide's locker - is not going to get off scott free IF he gets caught. UNLESS he was sent to do this job by Sue Tenneshi, who paid the templar an extra "donation" to turn his head.

This.

A Tuluki license is not for a criminal, it's for an artist.  The artist pays for the "right" to perform and must suffer the consequences of poor art.

It is just that in this case, the consequences for poor art are more severe than one (our real world, western ((for the most part)) minds) would think.

It's an alien concept for most of us, since to most of us "sanctioned" acts of theft and murder are not "art."  It requires a shift in thinking, in *gasp* role-play.

Don't like/agree/want it?  Don't play in Tuluk.  Play in the south/tribal areas and smirk and loudly talk about how stupid the northerners are for their fru-fru ways IG.

When I play, I'm playing my game, not yours.  My game might include the "fru-fru" stuff as another may think of it.  Too bad.  Play your game (which doesn't) and on the occasions when our two games intersect in Zalanthas, we'll deal with it.

[Malken]

Don't like/agree/want it?  Don't play in Tuluk.

That's pretty much the only thing you can do at this point. Trying to change anything via the GDB is pointless.

Tuluk drives me insane these days, so I'm using this time to try other places and I'm finding out that there are other places I didn't think I'd like but that I absolutely love these days.

If Tuluk ends up becoming deserted, then maybe I was right and some changes are needed, if it never happens, then maybe I was wrong and there are more people than I thought who enjoys it.

Spending your playing time in Tuluk and bitching that it sucks is a bit useless, I know, I did that for years.

[Riev]

Am I the only one who "misinterprets" the whole licensing thing? Or am I the only one who does -not- "misinterpret" it?

From my understanding, the license isn't permission, at all. Burglary is against the law in Tuluk. It's still against the law, even if you have a license. If you get caught, you will still be "caught" and there will still be consequences.

HOWEVER - those consequences will be marginal compared to an unlicensed burglar. For instance:

If you're licensed and get caught, the templar might say to the victim "It never happened. We shall never speak of it again."

Or, the templar might tell the burglar, "Naughty naughty, try harder next time, and don't pick someone with such good perception."

Or, the templar might tell the burglar, "That was the sloppiest job I've EVER heard - give me 100 sids for a donation to the cause" and then he gives the victim 100 sids to shut him up.

If you are NOT licensed, you might end up in jail for 3 game-days, be fined 100 sids for breaking the law, and be required to pay another 500 sids for a license.

And so on and so forth - depending on the crime, the criminal, the templar, and the victim. A licensed burglar who breaks into the Winrothol estate and burglarizes Joe Winrothol's #1 aide's locker - is not going to get off scott free IF he gets caught. UNLESS he was sent to do this job by Sue Tenneshi, who paid the templar an extra "donation" to turn his head.

Having played a Jihaen Templar before, I -can- say that there is (or was) in fact documentation that outlined basic ideas on what should be fines/punishments for certain crimes. Now, this documentation was in fact quite old, but it helped enforce the corruptibility and overall feel of Tuluk. I'm not going to give specific examples, but it was akin to "Well, if they get caught stealing, fine them thirty coins to make up for your time, and send them on their way" but  "If they're caught trying to steal from someone above the Commoner caste, fine them two small for the audacity".

I also thought the GDB was for discussion of points, clarification, and debate. Sorry guys, I misinterpreted the idea of enjoying an interactive storytelling game by discussing its finer points. I guess I can never play in Tuluk because I 'don't get it'. I guess its fine that some people truly feel that they are playing two different games, and wanted assistance reconciling the two either in the game world, or in their own mind.

[Maso]

But.. I wonder if -part- of UnderTuluk would ever be drained naturally... <.<

Like....all of it? Plzkthx.

[The Silence of the Erdlus]

I sort of see Tuluk as Ba Sing Se from Avatar. Does that make sense?

[X-D]

For the record, there are totally lawless areas in Tuluk..of course, just like the rinth, they are controlled by somebody.

That is about all I have for this thread. As I like both areas equally. When I want to play a certain type of PC, I play Tuluk, When I want to play another I play Allanak, and another has to be tribal.

For instance, if I want to play a patriot, well, that is usually easier and more fulfilling in Tuluk. Mercenary, I will play in Nak.

[Red Ranger]

+1 to what Lizzie, Pale Horse, and Riev have to say about artistry, crime, and punishment in Tuluk.

I sort of see Tuluk as Ba Sing Se from Avatar. Does that make sense?

I agree that Ba Sing Se is a great analogy to Tuluk.  It's even come up before!

Tuluki culture is one of the aspects of the game I really like, and it's often easily misunderstood.  As for real life counterparts it's hard for me to draw direct comparisons, but eastern and central asian cultures like China and India would be the closest examples I could think of.

Another decent example would be Ba Sing Se from the show Avatar: the last Airbender. 

[Desertman]

For the record, there are totally lawless areas in Tuluk..of course, just like the rinth, they are controlled by somebody.

That is about all I have for this thread. As I like both areas equally. When I want to play a certain type of PC, I play Tuluk, When I want to play another I play Allanak, and another has to be tribal.

For instance, if I want to play a patriot, well, that is usually easier and more fulfilling in Tuluk. Mercenary, I will play in Nak.

This. I want to clarify I don't hate Tuluk. I like the fact it is a little less "hard" to make it in Tuluk. After I play a longlived Nak character, I often play in Tuluk for a bit just to get out of the stress-zone, so to speak.

The game needs extremes on opposite ends of the spectrum. If Tuluk was like Nak then travelling wouldn't be nearly as appealing for either end.

[Kismetic]

Red Ranger, great post.  Lots of good posts here about Tuluki culture that reverberate with my lengthy experience there.  Tuluk is sufficiently grimdark in my eyes, a lot of times in a more horrifying, psychological sense than Allanak is capable of.  If you want that experience, it is available to you.

And now, the only thing I can think of after reading RR's post:

Templar:  For the crime of general barbarism, and repeated usage of the word "shitcock" in the Sanctuary, how do you plea?
Bynner:   I'm roofless, nigga!  Down wif da white city!
Templar:  The subject's testimony is noted, along with the time of day.  You may begin your work, jailer.
Torturer:  <as he drives a pick through the Bynner's fingernail, eliciting a howling scream>  The Sun King, great Muk Utep, was born on ...

[Eurynomos]

Just a reminder that Staff work diligently to reinforce the oppressive police state environment that is Tuluk. It does not rely solely on "a few PCs". We spend quite a bit of time making sure the body politic of Tuluk reacts appropriately to events within the Gol. You will likely not visibly see many of these effects.

[Wug]

I even disappear NPCs that get out of line.

[BleakOne]

I even disappear NPCs that get out of line.

Except that juggler... he's got connections.