Zalanthian Bodies vs 2003 Human Bodies

[__Torax__]

Our bodies OOCly are made up of 90 some odd percent of water. Which we need more water than food to survive. However in Zalanthas we need more food than water to survive. Which struck me as odd because even though Zalanthians would have adapted, wouldn't they still need the same amount of water for their bodily organs to function?

[X-D]

Actually, we are only around 70% water.
Which, oddly enough is about the same as the % of earths surface covered in water, Also, the water in your body has almost exactly the same mineral makeup as sea water.

Also, Here on earth you can easily survive for an unlimited amount of time without ever -drinking- anything. There have been many threads on this subject, but I'll leave it up to John and Lazloth to find them and link them in. :wink:  I always mess up on that anyway.

[Anonymous]

Yeah, I don't like the lack of need for water on Arm.  And as X-D pointed out, you can get away without drinking any at all for your characters entire life.  I know some foods bear moisture, and still others argue that even many dry foods metabolize into water, but I cannot perceive a desert life without ever requiring straight up water (buckets full even!)  If anything, I'd prefer the reverse to the current situation, that food isn't always needed but water most definately is.

[Hoodwink]

Woops, that was me.

[CindyLou]

There are substances that grow in the wild, that contain both nourishment and copious amounts of water all at the same time. One can easily subsist on a diet of nothing else, and be thoroughly hydrated and nourished through one's entire life.

In real life, there also exist such foods, particularly in the desert. One need only look.

[Malifaxis]

but I cannot perceive a desert life without ever requiring straight up water (buckets full even!)

There's actually several types of desert life in RL that go for an entire lifespan without ever getting water... they get everything they need from specially developed fur which collects moisture, from the plants they eat, from the other small critters they eat, and numerous other ways.

Hell, the chinchilla is one of them... a rodent so attuned to a low moisture survival that if you splash water on it... its fur falls out.

[X-D]

Need to clarify I think.

Hoodwink wrote:

Yeah, I don't like the lack of need for water on Arm. And as X-D pointed out, you can get away without drinking any at all for your characters entire life

I wrote:

Also, Here on earth you can easily survive for an unlimited amount of time without ever -drinking- anything

I did mean that as in real life.
In game, I find that all of my desert living chars have to drink quite a bit and reasonably often, and when they are living off of water rich foods, it -seems- to me that they hungry and thirsty even quicker, or maybe it just takes a lot more to fill them up.

I think the hunger and thirst are just about right, specialy since this is one of the playability verses realism issues....besides, if you don't think your char gets hungry or thirsty often enough, I'm sure you can have a staff member change your capacity.

You are getting thirsty

drink waterskin

You no longer feel thirsty.
You are full.

stand
n,w,w
You are getting thirsty.
w,w
You are very thirsty.
w,w
You are dying of thirst.
sip waterskin
You are no longer thirsty.
sip waterskin
You stomach can contain no more.
l in skin
This waterskin is less then half full of a clear liquid.
You think: Krath, I should I go back to the fountain or can I make it to the gaj.
You think: Think I'll go back, sands, I been trying to get there all week, but keep running low on water.
You are starting to get thirsty.
drink waterskin
You are no longer thirsty.
l in skin
This waterskin is empty.
You think Shit, ain't gonna make it.
run
e,e,e,e,e,e,e

[Angela Christine]

You may be drinking more than you realize.  I had a water pouch that, according to how much it cost to fill, held just under 1 gallon.  Picture a gallon (4 litre) jug of milk.  That's a fair bit of liquid.  It took 2 "drink"s to empty the container.  Apparently "drink" means "chug".    If you think of drinking half a gallon (2 litres) each time you drink, then you may not feel like you are eating more than you are drinking.

We're probably still getting off a little easier than we should, especially city characters, but it's a playability issue too.  Having to eat and drink every half hour would be annoying, espically for large groups on missions in the desert.

AC

I'm going to 'idea' this in game, but I think it would be nice if drinks and eats were much less. Assuming these things have numeric 'sizes', perhaps based on weight. You could get four drinks out of a gallon container, instead of two. But also, you wouldn't get as much from that same drink. I know there's sip, but they're extremes. Drink downs like half a gallon, where sip takes pretty much a sip. So if you want to fill up from just a "wee bit thirsty", you're either going to type sip eight or nine times, or waste nearly half a gallon of water.

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

I'm going to 'idea' this in game, but I think it would be nice if drinks and eats were much less.

Technically, I agree with you. However, it is spammy enough eating and drinking as it is. We do not need more spam, as that is what will happen with everyone's food getting smaller and so forth.

[Hoodwink]

There's actually several types of desert life in RL that go for an entire lifespan without ever getting water... they get everything they need from specially developed fur which collects moisture, from the plants they eat, from the other small critters they eat, and numerous other ways.

Hell, the chinchilla is one of them... a rodent so attuned to a low moisture survival that if you splash water on it... its fur falls out.

I'm talking about humans, not chinchillas.  Furthermore, a great majority of characters do not live, nor subsit off desert life.  In fact it's probably best to assume any city dweller does not live off cacti or any other desert fauna exclusively.

[JollyGreenGiant]

The way I understood the documentation and other similar threads about this that I'm too lazy to look up, the current stance on hunger and thirst is that while they exist, the idea is to add a bit of an edge to the game without being completely annoying.  Extreme realism would probably be annoying.  As far as I'm concerned, the present system is fine.  I've been hungry, I've been thirsty, and if I experienced either of those to a much higher degree than I do presently in game, I'd probably find it irritating.

[Hoodwink]

Oh I would definately find the game irritating if my characters thirst/hungered to a great degree.  Sadly, I don't remember the last character I've had who ever got thirsty even once.

[flurry]

If you play an outdoorsy character, you likely will get thirsty frequently.  If you play an indoorsy character, not so much.

[Silent Bob]

I can get stew or bread to eat in the game.  Does stew count as water?

[FiveDisgruntledMonkeysWit]

Silent Bob, to answer your question, many foods help to relieve your thirst as well as your hunger. Just think about it... That dry, stale bread probably won't do much for you, but what about that juicy piece of fruit? That ripe tuber? That shot of whiskey? That bowl of thin soup? That mug of ale?

The rules of real life apply to Armageddon, for the most part, anyhow. When you finish a bowl of yummy tomato soup, are you as thirsty as you are when you started?

[Gorobei]

Yes, stew has plenty of liquid in it.

[Summer]

I think it really depends how much salt that tomato soup had in it, not to mention the whiskey :wink:

[Rindan]

I would not mind seeing thrist rates for those inside the city jacked up.  They do not need to be as high as for when you are out doors, but I think that currently they are way too low.  If you never leave the city, and you just eat travel cakes your enitre life (which are dry), water will never even cross your mind.  I personally think that water should be the most damning thing to be without.  In the city though, food is many times more important.  If it is a fear of balance and playability, I would be content to see the need for food drop if the need for water was higher.  I would rather see eat as much as they currently drink, and drink as much as they currently eat, then have things as they are.  

In the game, water should be a valuable and precious commodity.  Especially in the south, water is the constant reminder that Tek owns all.  Want some water?  You need to hit up his temple.  As it stands, only those who play outdoors characters ever need to think about water.  In my mind, it sort of cripples a constant reminder that Tek is the big shit in the city.

[Xygax]

I actually think the real solution to this is to fine a way to require certain amounts of water/fluid (say, wine, ale?) for some cooking recipes.  For example, travel cakes should probably take a few cups of water.  A glazed tandu in jaluarr wine-sauce would require a cup of wine.

And so on...  This would create a "fluid" sink that isn't in the game right now, and do so in a fairly realistic fashion.  I've alread "idea"d my ideas.  

-- Xygax

[Angela Christine]

Yeah, there is shelter in the city, but that doesn't mean it's cool.  It says in the docs somewhere that the winds off the salt flats can raise the temperature in cities like Allanak to over 140F, at that temperature you are going to be sweating even in the city.  You either sweat enough to lower you body temperature, or you body temperature rises toward the ambient temperature and you die.  I think you die if your body temperature goes over 110 or so.  The tenements I've seen are cramped and have small windows or none at all, so you can't count on a cool breeze or having the the buildings cool down at night.  If you aren't rich then sweat is your best way to cool to safe levels in a hot, dry climate.

All that sweating uses up moisture that you have to get back somehow.

AC

[ashyom]

Recent posts bring up few good points.  I'll bring this up on Staff's board, and see if we can't find a good balance.
Keep up the good work!
Ash.

[FiveDisgruntledMonkeysWit]

One thing about the food/water code that has always irked me is the rate at which you get hungry. I think the rate should slow (slightly) the more hungry or thirsty you get. I know, I know, this sounds bad, but what are reasons, do you ask? Rationing!

Right now, the smartest thing to do when you're heading out to the desert is eat and drink, just gorge yourself until your poor character is ready to pop. How realistic is that? If you went on a trek out into the desert in the real world, I'm sure people would advise you to carefully ration your water, instead of gulping it all down at the start of the trip. However, I think that if it took more time to go from 'hungry' to 'famished' status, or from 'thirsty' to 'dehydrated' status, that the strict rationing of desert water and food would have a profound effect on the game. Instead of eating every berry on the bush that your ranger finds, you carefully pack them up and strictly ration them to make your trip last longer.

Any thoughts? Concerns? Something need clarification?

[JollyGreenGiant]

I like the idea.  How about an inversely proportionate hunger/thirst rate?  So when you're full, you go to not-full faster than from not-full to hungry, and so on down the progression.

[Silent Bob]

Can a ranger find a cactus in the wild and squeeze out the water from it into his waterskin for later?