Fashion Police

[Is Friday]

I would much rather a bunch of commoners respected the nobility fearfully because they are fickle and sometimes will kill them randomly than deal with drama bomb snuggle bunny groups who monologue about the class system in nak being "wrong" or a certain noble being "mean". They're not mean, your life just isn't meaningful so you should try pretty hard to stay alive via groveling.

[Harmless]

I have never been PKed by a templar. I have had a scattering of other interactions I really enjoyed. But, Templars are welcome to do things differently than I have experienced. at the expense of a volatile playerbase, that is.

[Is Friday]

You can go overboard with it I guess. Just keep in mind: a lot of players see any slight or punishment on their PC as the most grave injustice. That's just my experience.

[Delirium]

Ten years ago, templars/nobles would occasionally PK you for a wrong word, or a hint of disrespect.

The playerbase bitched.

Now, it seems, we've gone to the entire other end of the spectrum.

The playerbase still bitches.

It'd be nice to see a return toward the middle.

The playerbase will always bitch.

[Patuk]

I would much rather a bunch of commoners respected the nobility fearfully because they are fickle and sometimes will kill them randomly than deal with drama bomb snuggle bunny groups who monologue about the class system in nak being "wrong" or a certain noble being "mean". They're not mean, your life just isn't meaningful so you should try pretty hard to stay alive via groveling.

But I finally got advanced slashing_weapons! I can't grovel -now-!

[HavokBlue]

Ten years ago, templars/nobles would occasionally PK you for a wrong word, or a hint of disrespect.

The playerbase bitched.

Now, it seems, we've gone to the entire other end of the spectrum.

The playerbase still bitches.

It'd be nice to see a return toward the middle.

The playerbase will always bitch.

Nobles and Templars will still try to kill you for not bowing low enough, don't worry.

[Bast]

Id like to harp on the commoners dressing well thing. The problem is its very easy for a PC merchant to get sick rich on their own pretty quickly while nobles have to relay on their stipends and obviously don't work. Every-time I have seen someone icly bitching about commoners dressing nice its a PC noble throwing a fit because a Commoner has better clothing than they do.  Personally I think its stupid, I think if your commoner wants and can afford to wear silk great. I for one would like to see more PC muggings. Templar Talia sees your diamond earring and might ask if they are gift for her. (say no, I dare you) The other solution would be to adjust what nobles get paid. Make more noble only stuff in the merchant houses and seriously the pricing on some things is just stupid expensive.

[Malken]

Nobles obviously need to start going out and forage for salts too if they want their income to start matching the rest of the playerbase.

[Marauder Moe]

Ten years ago, templars/nobles would occasionally PK you for a wrong word, or a hint of disrespect.

Are we sure this actually ever happened or was it myth and hyperbole that, even then, was used to instill newbies with proper fear of authority?

I recall we definitely had some mean templars back then, but mostly because they roleplayed menace extremely well.  I've never actually seen a "That one over there didn't bow.  Kill him." or the like ever.

[HavokBlue]

Nobles obviously need to start going out and forage for salts too if they want their income to start matching the rest of the playerbase.

Hire some thugs to go sit around the flats collecting a "salt tax".

[Is Friday]

Nobles obviously need to start going out and forage for salts too if they want their income to start matching the rest of the playerbase.

Hire some thugs to go sit around the flats collecting a "salt tax".

Until every FITE PC in the game goes to rescue those poor grebbers.

[Narf]

Id like to harp on the commoners dressing well thing. The problem is its very easy for a PC merchant to get sick rich on their own pretty quickly while nobles have to relay on their stipends and obviously don't work. Every-time I have seen someone icly bitching about commoners dressing nice its a PC noble throwing a fit because a Commoner has better clothing than they do.  Personally I think its stupid, I think if your commoner wants and can afford to wear silk great. I for one would like to see more PC muggings. Templar Talia sees your diamond earring and might ask if they are gift for her. (say no I dare you) The other solution would be to adjust what nobles get paid. Make more noble only stuff in the merchant houses and seriously the pricing on some things is just stupid expensive.

I don't know, I think letting the nobles and Templars enforce their own arbitrary policies that shift from noble to noble and are hard to predict by the playerbase actually encourages a lot more interaction than any sort of 'behind the scenes' solution.

[BlackMagic0]

Nobles obviously need to start going out and forage for salts too if they want their income to start matching the rest of the playerbase.

Hire some thugs to go sit around the flats collecting a "salt tax".

Until every FITE PC in the game goes to rescue those poor grebbers.

Hire better thugs then.

[Narf]

Salt Flats privateers would be the very best thing that ever happened to Arm, no exceptions.

They just need their little emblem to flash when people give 'em grief saying they're robbing in the name of house so-and-so.

[HavokBlue]

I think it would be superneat if instead of policing what commoners wear, the nobility in the south actually tried to out-do each other in terms of ridiculous expensive outfits.

[Marauder Moe]

Restricting independent hunter/merchant income is a very complicated (code-wise) problem.

Restricting clothing quality through social convention and feedback requires no code changes.  It also promotes interaction and cultural awareness.

Consider:
Wealth and social standing don't always correlate in Armageddon (especially among PCs, given the aforementioned income disparities).  Clothing quality is not purely an expression of wealth; it could be considered an expression of social rank as well.  A commoner wearing more silks and bling than the average PC noble could definitely be interpreted as improperly attempting to rise about their class or worse; rubbing their unusual wealth in the faces of the upper class (which challenges the whole social caste hierarchy even!).

I would be totally cool if said upper class decided to start bullying commoners into ditching their silks, and if then wealthy-but-common peoples started voluntarily adopting more modest materials and styles.

[Delirium]

I think it would be superneat if instead of policing what commoners wear, the nobility in the south actually tried to out-do each other in terms of ridiculous expensive outfits.

Ditto, but I get the sense that noble PCs are encouraged to spend their sid on plots, not outfits.

I also get the sense that a lot of PCs fall for the "fancy loot" vs "actual fashion docs" trap.

[Jenred]

Ten years ago, templars/nobles would occasionally PK you for a wrong word, or a hint of disrespect.

Are we sure this actually ever happened or was it myth and hyperbole that, even then, was used to instill newbies with proper fear of authority?

I recall we definitely had some mean templars back then, but mostly because they roleplayed menace extremely well.  I've never actually seen a "That one over there didn't bow.  Kill him." or the like ever.

This did happen, back in the day when nobles would sit in the Gaj like it was the Trader's, because the Trader's had no PCs. Eventually the Gaj got alot of echoes to really up the level of disgustingness there, and alot of the nobles stopped hanging out there so much.

[Marauder Moe]

Ten years ago, templars/nobles would occasionally PK you for a wrong word, or a hint of disrespect.

Are we sure this actually ever happened or was it myth and hyperbole that, even then, was used to instill newbies with proper fear of authority?

I recall we definitely had some mean templars back then, but mostly because they roleplayed menace extremely well.  I've never actually seen a "That one over there didn't bow.  Kill him." or the like ever.

This did happen, back in the day when nobles would sit in the Gaj like it was the Trader's, because the Trader's had no PCs. Eventually the Gaj got alot of echoes to really up the level of disgustingness there, and alot of the nobles stopped hanging out there so much.

I played during those days too, though.

Like I said, there were plenty of nasty templars and mean nobles.  They would also definitely pick on commoners for little things.  However, even back then I'm pretty sure some escalation had to occur before execution was on the table.

[Jenred]

And in terms of item values, players should 'idea' items they run across that seem overly valued, that way the staff can make adjustments.
Or if the standing methodology is request, perhaps that instead.
I've ran into items before that are worth less than what they are made of, and other items, which for no explicable reason, are worth 10 times what they are made of.

[Delirium]

I didn't mean to indicate that no escalation occurred, but the "bullshit tolerance" was a hell of a lot lower.

Hell, I'd see PCs get tossed in jail for disrespecting a merchant house family member.

I liked that. It really drove home the whole despotic post-apocalyptic wild-west feeling.

Adherence to fashion guidelines is just a part of that, but it goes a long way in helping to keep the setting alive, IMO.

[Jenred]

Unfortunately alot of things go out the window when you throw in player cliques, the desire to foster playability over realism, the lack of sustainable precedents, etc etc.

Like alot of players don't know that its ok to be stern as a noble, because they never saw one that was. So they play similarly to one they saw, and maybe figure "oh, that PC was a little nice, I can be a little nicer" and then the chain propels itself. We need a good strong raging asshole to set the standard for a new generation of nobles.

Also, the trend for playability over realism... You might say "a rinthi, an elf, a gicker, and a northerner walk into a bar" and be expecting a terrible joke, until you realize that this is the way of things. Because players are looking at these as the only other options for interaction.

Alot of the sentiments related to fashion are indicative of a lot of the stronger underlying issues in players lives... like that there is such heated discussion over the mass wearing of silk, the niceties of nobility, the lack of bite in templars, is a bit interesting.

[HavokBlue]

Once, one of my characters tried to scam a noble out of some sid for his Rinther friends. The noble took my character to the bank, gave him a pouch containing significantly less coins than requested, and then walked into the middle of the bazaar, threatening to shout for the guards and accusing me of stealing his coinpurse. It was awesome and clever and, in my opinion, a much better way of showing off the power of the ruling class than harassing merchants because of what they wear.

I think there are better ways to make Allanak seem like the shithole it is than fashion-policing commoners.

[Reiloth]

Unfortunately alot of things go out the window when you throw in player cliques, the desire to foster playability over realism, the lack of sustainable precedents, etc etc.

Like alot of players don't know that its ok to be stern as a noble, because they never saw one that was. So they play similarly to one they saw, and maybe figure "oh, that PC was a little nice, I can be a little nicer" and then the chain propels itself. We need a good strong raging asshole to set the standard for a new generation of nobles.

Also, the trend for playability over realism... You might say "a rinthi, an elf, a gicker, and a northerner walk into a bar" and be expecting a terrible joke, until you realize that this is the way of things. Because players are looking at these as the only other options for interaction.

Alot of the sentiments related to fashion are indicative of a lot of the stronger underlying issues in players lives... like that there is such heated discussion over the mass wearing of silk, the niceties of nobility, the lack of bite in templars, is a bit interesting.

There's a lot of 'A lot' in here, but I don't think it's that extreme.

If you think someone isn't playing to docs or being the 'exceptional snowflake', file a player complaint. Docs are there for a reason -- To be followed, to a T, IMHO. I don't try to bend the rules when it comes to docs, I think that's stupid.

My PC's give Gemmers shit for sitting at the bar, or even just existing. My PC's are scared of them, and rightfully so. My PC's will give Elves shit for being lazy, selfish bastards who just want my coins. My PC's will give half-elves shit for being freakazoids born of a freakish combo of elf and human, ugh.

As Delirium said, 'playerbase gonna bitch'. Templars kill too many people, bitchfest. Too few, bitchfest. (Not saying you are bitching Jenred, you aren't). I think it's interesting too. That's also another reason I just play the game instead of following GDB trends and complaints.

[Barzalene]

My feelings are as follows:
I think that dressing all in silk is something that should be restricted to the very high ranking. (Not necessarily nobility, but almost exclusively the nobility. Why? Because it's a harsh desert planet where people will kill you for a drink of water. Also, because it's a society where people should know their place. And finally because I don't think wanton conspicuous consumption adds to the game world. It may make players or their pcs feel all shiny and new, but ultimately, I think working within the confines of your place in the world is the way to go.)

Other people's feelings may differ. I can't prove that my feelings trump yours. But the above at least shares my viewpoint.

As for hairstyles, well, I could see that in Nak. Especially if they were elaborate and impractical. Enforcing it would however be problematic, especially where new players are concerned.