Nuances of Tuluk v. Allanak - Derail

[musashi]

I didn't mean to spawn the TZB thread off into a derail!  

As I see it, it goes both ways ... yes the nobility (and to a lesser degree the templarate) in Tuluk are more chill with commoners than they are in Allanak, but it's not just a case of the nobility slumming -- I would say your average Tuluki commoner has a bit more etiquette inside of them to pull out when dealing with the nobility. You know, little things, like not being caked in shit with no pants on when you go to a bar patroned by the upper class. There's a tavern for that ... it's just in the Warrens closer to the rest of the shit stained pantless masses.

The commoners likely have more etiquette "training" than a commoner in Allanak because hey, they spend more time around their nobility. So I think there's a middle ground to be had there.

Tuluki culture still very much considers the upper castes to be better than the lower ones by birthrite. The liberation and occupation period endeared the common people to the nobles, but in the same way a person can be endeared to a faithful dog that saved their life. -- You might seriously love that dog like a member of your own family ... but it's still a dog ... and you probably shouldn't be fucking it.

So in short, I think you can totally be rough and tumble in Tuluk, but you need to roll it back when you're around your social betters. Save it for the other commoners.

[MeTekillot]

I don't think it's really viable to be rough and tumble in Tuluk. Nobility can frequent almost the bars. The ones they don't are the ones in bumfuck hidey-hole. Public violence of any kind is outlawed. Folks get arrested for brawl code there. If you're gritty and gnashy, you get assassinated or disappeared. Or people just completely ignore you in general.

[Reiloth]

I don't think it's really viable to be rough and tumble in Tuluk.

I don't think that's exactly the truth. There are plenty of hunters, which are pretty rough and tumble. They don't walk up to people and punch them in the face, but they aren't exactly wearing silks. There are criminal elements, both elves and humans and inbetween, that crop up. People do get murdered, there just isn't a stack of bodies in the street. It's legal to murder people in Tuluk -- You just need to go through the right avenue. Contrariwise, it isn't legal to murder people in Allanak. Which is more rough and tumble? I guess you can't walk up to someone, insult them, and draw a knife (or expect them to draw a knife) and fight in the streets. If that's rough and tumble...Well...Count me out!

Nobility can frequent almost the bars.

Nobles can technically frequent whatever bar they want (in both City States). They're Nobles! But if it isn't one of a few that come to mind, they would probably be made fun of by their peers. I think the same can be said of Allanak.

The ones they don't are the ones in bumfuck hidey-hole.

Not sure what you mean here -- Tuluk's kind of big and the bars are spread out I guess. It's not like people don't spam walk inbetween them and know the distance by heart.

Public violence of any kind is outlawed.

Pretty true, but public violence isn't exactly legal in Allanak. You can't walk up to someone and shank them, unless you're in the Labyrinth (or good at hiding from the Law).

Folks get arrested for brawl code there. If you're gritty and gnashy, you get assassinated or disappeared. Or people just completely ignore you in general.

Also not really true and vague? There's brawl code in a few of the taverns, and you don't get arrested (Unless you mean by a PC?) if you're brawling. The same is true in Allanak. I think most of "Tuluk is for sissies" is conceived by we the players. It's also a magnet for newer players (Maybe after their first few characters in Allanak or Red Storm, as was the case for me) and it's pretty easy (in comparison to Allanak) to stay alive, even if it's your first PC. I think this tends to lead towards long-term relationships and friendships, and when people get disappeared or slighted, they react by saying "Why did you do this to my friend? Why?", questioning the powers that be, when realistically, in Tuluk, people should keep their eyes forward and forget that person ever existed (unless they want to risk disappearing themselves).

I've seen Tuluk in a few different incarnations, and I think depending on who is playing there, the atmosphere changes pretty drastically. I'd say that's also true in Allanak, and of the two, Tuluk seems better documented, leading to (IMHO) more depth outside of personal relationships. I like Tuluk quite a bit -- I like Allanak too, but Tuluk was my major stomping ground when I was a newb, and i'm glad it exists. I think you'd be surprised how well a rough and tumble assassin or hunter can do in Tuluk, it just requires playing by the book. Follow the rules in Tuluk, and you'd be surprised how much corruption and betrayal and murder there is.

[BleakOne]

My comment on the other thread wasn't that there is no grit in Tuluk, just that the style of grit in the Byn is very much more akin to Allanak. Throwing shit at someone, getting drunk, brawling, then laughing about it and forgetting it happened.

[Synthesis]

My comment on the other thread wasn't that there is no grit in Tuluk, just that the style of grit in the Byn is very much more akin to Allanak. Throwing shit at someone, getting drunk, brawling, then laughing about it and forgetting it happened.

That's the style of grit in the southern Byn.

Since the northern Byn is made up of northerners, it stands to reason that they'd you know...behave like northerners.

[Red Ranger]

It appears to me that the people that think that there can't be "grit" in Tuluk are the ones that don't really understand Tuluk.  There's plenty of potential for grit, if by "grit" one means lower class life that is dusty and dingy and desperate.  However, if by "grit" one means the ability to act like a total f**kwad without having to face dire IC consequences, then there isn't much grit in Tuluk.

In my opinion, one major difference between Allanak and Tuluk is in the involvement of the Powers That Be.  In Allanak, the Powers that Be won't lift a finger unless you're directly bothering them.  You can live or die or barbecue dead neighbors on the curbside and the Powers That Be won't care, as long as you aren't injuring them, making them look bad, or making more work for them. Therefore you can go around yelling sh*tc*ck! to your heart's content, and as long as you don't cause trouble for one of those Powers That Be, you're in the clear.  Tuluk, however, is different because the Power That Be care about you.  They care enough to watch your every move.  Unlike in Allanak where you can get by just by not drawing attention to yourself, in Tuluk you can get in trouble for not drawing enough attention to yourself.  If you don't sing loudly enough in church on Sunday, you might just have to visit Room 101 and learn what it really means to love Big Brother.

Allanak is openly violent and tumultuous like the movies Escape from New York or No Escape, and the Powers That Be are the ones with the guns.  Tuluk is like the novel 1984 or the movie Equilibrium, where the violence is institutional and out of the public eye.  Not everyone understands or appreciates the differences, and if you want to go around yelling sh*tc*ck! at people in Tuluk you're going to find yourself assassinated or disappeared.  That's the way it's supposed to be in Tuluk.  And I think that's pretty hardcore.

[kayza]

Both are awesome.

Find out IC.

[Zoan]

Vrum vrum it's the hatecycle.

[BleakOne]

It appears to me that the people that think that there can't be "grit" in Tuluk are the ones that don't really understand Tuluk.  There's plenty of potential for grit, if by "grit" one means lower class life that is dusty and dingy and desperate.  However, if by "grit" one means the ability to act like a total f**kwad without having to face dire IC consequences, then there isn't much grit in Tuluk.

In my opinion, one major difference between Allanak and Tuluk is in the involvement of the Powers That Be.  In Allanak, the Powers that Be won't lift a finger unless you're directly bothering them.  You can live or die or barbecue dead neighbors on the curbside and the Powers That Be won't care, as long as you aren't injuring them, making them look bad, or making more work for them. Therefore you can go around yelling sh*tc*ck! to your heart's content, and as long as you don't cause trouble for one of those Powers That Be, you're in the clear.  Tuluk, however, is different because the Power That Be care about you.  They care enough to watch your every move.  Unlike in Allanak where you can get by just by not drawing attention to yourself, in Tuluk you can get in trouble for not drawing enough attention to yourself.  If you don't sing loudly enough in church on Sunday, you might just have to visit Room 101 and learn what it really means to love Big Brother.

Allanak is openly violent and tumultuous like the movies Escape from New York or No Escape, and the Powers That Be are the ones with the guns.  Tuluk is like the novel 1984 or the movie Equilibrium, where the violence is institutional and out of the public eye.  Not everyone understands or appreciates the differences, and if you want to go around yelling sh*tc*ck! at people in Tuluk you're going to find yourself assassinated or disappeared.  That's the way it's supposed to be in Tuluk.  And I think that's pretty hardcore.

Put it better than I could have.

[Akaramu]

I disagree that people in Allanak can act like a total f**wad and get away with it - not even nobles and templars. The effects might be subtle and not apparent to everyone, but there are always consequences. If lowly commoners get away with it, chances are certain groups ingame aren't active enough to prevent them from doing so.
(Unless it's breeds and other misfits that are targeted, then it's okay.) 

[musashi]

Wait wait wait ... Allanak is subtle now? 

[Suhuy]

Wait wait wait ... Allanak is subtle now? 

I think Allanak has always been subtle, dating long before New Tuluk and its current concept were even written. The elves of the Haruch Kemad, for those who may remember them, had to be very subtle if they were to accomplish their goals. Behaving loudly or overtly would only serve to hinder their success. Nobles and their servants also need to be subtle in many ways, as do merchants. The whole world envies them and they are all trying to get the upper hand against one another. Hiding one's motives and keeping your cool are the best two ways to ensure you have the upper hand, and Allanak knows this. One word to describe this type of behavior would be discreet. Another is subtle.

I think the idea that Allanak has a concept of in-your-face crudeness is actually something created by the Tuluki enthusiasts as a way of differentiating Tuluk from Allanak. As in, "Hey, we're supposed to be discreet and not talk openly about certain topics, this must therefore mean that Allanak is the exact opposite." The fact of the matter is that Tuluk and Allanak are -not- polar opposites of one another. They're different cultures, but they are not yin and yang. For every difference they have I can name a similarity. They are both city-states; they are both ruled by sorcerer-kings; they are both policed by templars; their templars, however different they may be, both speak the same language; they both have a hierarchy composed of slaves, commoners and nobles, etc.

I think players often get confused by looking at the more obvious differences and concluding that Allanak has this crude, raw, rough and tumble atmosphere when the fact of the matter is that this is only true in certain parts of BOTH city-states. They see that Allanak displays the heads of criminals on spears for display, where as in Tuluk this is more taboo, and decide that this must be a concept which permeates every level of Allanaki society. But that's just plain not true. The Allanaki are open and in-your-face in some aspects, while in others they are the very definition of subtlety. A nobleman who attends the party of one of their adversaries and is all smiles and pretending to be close friends, while secretly plotting to have them assassinated, is a perfect example of the type of subtlety required in Allanaki society. And by the same token, a 'Rinth elf might employ the exact same sort of subtlety against one of their neighboring factions.

Tuluk and Allanak are different. This much goes without saying. But they are also very similar in many ways and, in fact, it may be their similarities, not their differences, which make them adversaries in the first place.

[musashi]

Well spoken sir.

[Cind]

If I had no choice in the matter and had to choose between playing a criminal in Tuluk and a criminal in Allanak for the next RL week, I would pick Tuluk--- and I'm a hardcore Allanak fan, here. That shit that goes down in Tuluk, man. Shivers, up and down my spine remembering that.

Why am I an Allanaki fan? The grit style of Allanak aside, it is entirely because I most enjoy playing random nobody indies who don't know how to read and write, aren't employed by a powerful clan, and do not have involvements with powerful people, regular pcs who just get by. When playing this type of role in Tuluk, you rarely get to see the horrors of that city, at least in my experience. In Allanak, sometimes cruelty and oppression run screaming out of the bar when the templar enters, followed by a bloody public mauling in which the templar OOCs this is going to be gruesome. everyone who can't stand me pulling this guy's fingers through his heart like sewing needles, leave now. And I don't need to be doing the slightest bit of social status upgrading on my own part to see it.

[AmandaGreathouse]

I have to say, one of the best RP'd elves I've ever seen... was in Nak. I think they were independent, too.

They had a name or their tribe was named something about Kanjels. It was just beautiful to watch. They'd involve vnpcs, people treated them like I picture elves should be treated, and every time I was around them, I'd always find myself checking everything once I was left, because they gave off a subtle used car salesman vibe of 'You're getting screwed over'.

I really enjoyed playing in Tuluk the first year I was playing. After that... Allanak, all the way.

In Tuluk, it feels like even the 'gritty' people are as civilized and cushy as nobles aides are in Nak, and that's just not how my dystopian arm is supposed to feel, to me.

Yes, there is supposed to be that 'vibe' in Tuluk of big brother et al, but I never see it the way I picture it would be. I'm picturing the upper class from 1984, and instead, they all seem to be indoctrinated. I see no Winston Smiths, and that makes the story a good deal less compelling to me.

[Red Ranger]

Yes, there is supposed to be that 'vibe' in Tuluk of big brother et al, but I never see it the way I picture it would be. I'm picturing the upper class from 1984, and instead, they all seem to be indoctrinated. I see no Winston Smiths, and that makes the story a good deal less compelling to me.

If you don't like Tuluk because you don't see any Winston Smiths... why not make your next PC be a Winston Smith of Tuluk?

Be the Change etc. etc.

[Kalai]

Perhaps you've only happened to meet them after the end of the book.

[AmandaGreathouse]

Yes, there is supposed to be that 'vibe' in Tuluk of big brother et al, but I never see it the way I picture it would be. I'm picturing the upper class from 1984, and instead, they all seem to be indoctrinated. I see no Winston Smiths, and that makes the story a good deal less compelling to me.

If you don't like Tuluk because you don't see any Winston Smiths... why not make your next PC be a Winston Smith of Tuluk?

Be the Change etc. etc.

Honestly? Because I really don't enjoy it enough to deal with being the only one there doing it.

[palomar]

I like Allanak, but I enjoy Tuluk more and it's because the way the northern society works. As previous posters have noted, there are many similarities between the city-states. An example that wasn't mentioned before was that there's a wording in the docs about noble subtlety that is very similar for both regions.

However, there is a tradition of being more direct in Allanak while in Tuluk things predominantly happen behind the scenes. It not just in regards to violence, but violence is very obvious so it's often used as an example.

While the geography of the northlands to some extent is easier to survive than the southlands, it's far from "easy mode". Veteran and semi-veteran players can have their PCs survive just about anywhere, anyway. And when it comes to society, social rules and what have you, Tuluk is difficult. It takes a lot of effort and time to get it. Some players may never come to appreciate it or understand it, and that's fine. Personally, I'm happy about both the similarities and the differences.

[Riya OniSenshi]

There's frequent use of the word "grit", but Indigo Montoya doesn't think that word means what some of you think it means...

[Narf]

And when it comes to society, social rules and what have you, Tuluk is difficult. It takes a lot of effort and time to get it. Some players may never come to appreciate it or understand it, and that's fine. Personally, I'm happy about both the similarities and the differences.

This is sometimes true, but I find enforcement of the social mores in Tuluk to be somewhat sporadic. Somone should put out a guide to enforcing social mores for commoners by commoners (since most players are commoners, and nobles can enforce social mores pretty easily already).

I will not be the change though. I am one of the many who actually need the guide.

[Cutthroat]

Suhuy, Red Ranger, and palomar pretty much said many of the things I wanted to say, so...

Arguably you could say that Tuluk has a higher barrier to entry in the "hardcore" player-against-player action than Allanak. After all, to get into the behind-the-scenes action of Tuluk without being a victim of said action, you generally have to earn the trust of higher-up people, which is probably easier in Tuluk than it is in Allanak. But to get into the mix in Allanak, you basically just have to be in the clan or have the friends that deal with killing things or pushing people around. But similarities are there between the cities, too.

If you think it's impossible to play a person in Tuluk that is generally disliked by authorities but also not worth their time to deal with in a more permanent fashion, you are probably just pushing your luck a bit too much. Like in Allanak, there's a system that puts people in their place. So put on your pants, come to Tuluk and find another way to be a jerk. There are plenty available.

You don't have to like that, but it is possible to appreciate the difference.

[Patuk]

.. I'm really glad for all the posters that are finding their vibe in Tuluk, that say it is by no means a nicer place than Allanak, that there -are- things going on and that one merely needs to look for them, but even so, no amount of poking around in whatever fashion has ever had me come across it. If you're enjoying things, that's good, but I don't think that having good RP being as inaccessible as this is a good thing in the end.

[Reiloth]

.. I'm really glad for all the posters that are finding their vibe in Tuluk, that say it is by no means a nicer place than Allanak, that there -are- things going on and that one merely needs to look for them, but even so, no amount of poking around in whatever fashion has ever had me come across it. If you're enjoying things, that's good, but I don't think that having good RP being as inaccessible as this is a good thing in the end.

Just because you have not found access does not mean it is inaccessible. I think plenty of newer players, even, can find the juicy stuff. Just requires patience and perception.

[palomar]

.. I'm really glad for all the posters that are finding their vibe in Tuluk, that say it is by no means a nicer place than Allanak, that there -are- things going on and that one merely needs to look for them, but even so, no amount of poking around in whatever fashion has ever had me come across it. If you're enjoying things, that's good, but I don't think that having good RP being as inaccessible as this is a good thing in the end.

It truly isn't buried under 99 feet of rock, but rather hidden just beneath the surface. A pleasant surface is extremely important in Tuluk.

... I just re-read what you wrote and I'll correct myself: Most unpleasantries etc are hidden beneath the surface. Good RP is possible to find everywhere. Contact a Helper if you want to give it another try and feel you need a bit of direction.

[Akaramu]

.. I'm really glad for all the posters that are finding their vibe in Tuluk, that say it is by no means a nicer place than Allanak, that there -are- things going on and that one merely needs to look for them, but even so, no amount of poking around in whatever fashion has ever had me come across it. If you're enjoying things, that's good, but I don't think that having good RP being as inaccessible as this is a good thing in the end.

That's the main, and most important difference for me. I don't get Tuluk, and I could never figure out how to get into the behind the scenes action, especially as an offpeaker (perhaps this is why Patuk is having the same troubles). In that regard, I find Allanak much more offpeak friendly. And I am reasonably patient, and like to believe I am also reasonably perceptive.

[Patuk]

.. I'm really glad for all the posters that are finding their vibe in Tuluk, that say it is by no means a nicer place than Allanak, that there -are- things going on and that one merely needs to look for them, but even so, no amount of poking around in whatever fashion has ever had me come across it. If you're enjoying things, that's good, but I don't think that having good RP being as inaccessible as this is a good thing in the end.

That's the main, and most important difference for me. I don't get Tuluk, and I could never figure out how to get into the behind the scenes action, especially as an offpeaker (perhaps this is why Patuk is having the same troubles). In that regard, I find Allanak much more offpeak friendly. And I am reasonably patient, and like to believe I am also reasonably perceptive.

I've wondered about that a number of times as well; certainly being unable to play during the 'right' times doesn't help much. Still, until I see it for myself the 'it's there you just can't see it' argument is going to remain unconvincing for me. If there's people who enjoy the north more than the south, that's great, but I really have yet to see why that would be.

[Marc]

.. I'm really glad for all the posters that are finding their vibe in Tuluk, that say it is by no means a nicer place than Allanak, that there -are- things going on and that one merely needs to look for them, but even so, no amount of poking around in whatever fashion has ever had me come across it. If you're enjoying things, that's good, but I don't think that having good RP being as inaccessible as this is a good thing in the end.

That's the main, and most important difference for me. I don't get Tuluk, and I could never figure out how to get into the behind the scenes action, especially as an offpeaker (perhaps this is why Patuk is having the same troubles). In that regard, I find Allanak much more offpeak friendly. And I am reasonably patient, and like to believe I am also reasonably perceptive.

I've wondered about that a number of times as well; certainly being unable to play during the 'right' times doesn't help much. Still, until I see it for myself the 'it's there you just can't see it' argument is going to remain unconvincing for me. If there's people who enjoy the north more than the south, that's great, but I really have yet to see why that would be.

+1 Allanak.

People can find good RP everywhere so we'll ignore the better RP/scene bits.

The problem with Tuluk is it's so damned contrived.  Allanak is a mix of all kinds of ready examples:  Rome, Darksun, Egypt etc.  Brutal.  Bloody.  Intrigues inside a system as old as the world itself.

Tuluk is some green paradise full of silk wearing sycophants all blindly loyal to Dr Xavier that just happened to sprout 1000 layers of detail when it rebirthed itself (the entire system of patrons/striasiri was omitted in the old Tuluk). It's a society that promotes people keeping things secret and behind closed doors (which IMHO promotes OOC coordination and contact not to mention keeping it hidden from new players.  joy!).  Where it's unspoken-common knowledge that certain parties know everything that happens.  In other words: You will be caught.  You need to be involved before you can try to get involved.  Joy.  Everyone has to be a social climber because the PC world is too small and without contacts you cannot succeed because you will be caught.

Tuluk makes Allanak look poor.  The stores are better and more plentiful.  Starting gear is cheaper (not talking the new stores).  High-end stuff is all over the place.  More and better purchasers.  It feels like I'm playing in Chicago while Allanak is Rio.  Even the poor of Tuluk are well to do.  Nothing else is represented by PC's because the environment bleeds coins.  Tuluk fucks the economy.

Wildlife is "better".  Won't go into detail but the "lush and vibrant north" has a shitton more represented and documented wildlife.  PC actions are the only thing that can prevent Tuluk from having the best hunting/scavenging bar none.

Tuluk needs a make over.  It's too damn proper and upper-class.  I need another curvy tuluki in silks like I need a hole in the head.  I thought this was a low-tech, low-fantasy world :-(

Tuluk=easy mode

Allanak=Armageddon

(shit is pretty easy in Allanak for experienced players too but Tuluks environment is pretty easy for everyone)

[Reiloth]

Well, that was a whole lot of vague half-truths...Some people prefer to play in Tuluk, others in Allanak. I doubt this thread is long for the world, as many have come before it, and perished.

I don't find Tuluk contrived, I find it brutal and scary.

I don't see Tuluk as a fairy happy-go-lucky let's-all-hold-hands fantasy world. I see it as a place where you are only afforded one mistake.

I think people view the world as they want to behold it. Tuluk, to lots of people, is just a silk-wearing lumberjack paradise. But, if you dig just a little deeper, there's a whole wealth of RP that some people (like me) find more interesting than the banal brutality of Allanak.

People play in Tuluk for a reason -- Some people avoid it like the plague. That's fine. We're all playing the same game, and we all have different tastes.

Tuluk is "easy mode" if you are a coin-obsessed hunter that plays into the economic grind (Hunt X, Skin X, Sell X Parts, Craft X Parts, rinse repeat). Sure, that's easy in Tuluk, and hard in Allanak. I guess I don't view 'the grind' as the hard part about ArmageddonMUD.

The layered RP in Tuluk provides for some pretty wicked opportunities, that sometimes I find plays into the theme of "Murder, Corruption, and Betrayal" way better than Allanak.

I won't bash on Allanak, but I find a lot of the plots that arise in Allanak revolve around love/lovemaking/sex/sexual relationships/violence/more violence/dumb drunks, and (while the same could be said of Tuluk, sometimes, more so), I find a whole other layer to Tuluk that isn't that, and more enjoyable to me.

[Riev]

TL;DR

Tuluk is for the Art Majors of the world. If you have to ask, you'll never know. You either "get it, or play somewhere else"

Allanak is for the rest. The ones that don't WANT to "get it". They don't "understand it", and want to just "do it".




I think most perturbing, are the people who are saying "Look. Tuluk is awesome. I play Tuluk. If you don't like Tuluk, you just don't GET IT BRAH."

[Akaramu]

I would enjoy playing in Tuluk if I could "get it", I'm sure. I don't hate Tuluk, I am just frustrated by not getting it, and not knowing how to go about getting it. Just playing there didn't work.

[Cutthroat]

Tuluk is for the Art Majors of the world. If you have to ask, you'll never know.

I'm sure a few players would be happy to help people break into what Tuluk is about.

My advice to those who want to "get" Tuluk would be to do one or more of these things:

- Be a citizen. Get the star tattoo on your hands and the band on your neck or above. May seem obvious to some, but it's important.
- If you think you'll be tempted to play solo, play a character in Tuluk that isn't primarily a hunter-gatherer. This will force you to try and find more fun inside the walls. Though you can certainly find fun inside the walls as a hunter-gatherer as well.
- Play someone who aspires to be one or more of the following: a bard, a licensed assassin, a licensed thief, a Legions soldier (or other type of templar employee) or a Noble House employee. Those are all roles that approach that layer where things move and shift.
- The Akai Sjir might be an interesting option for those that want to get into the mix. Sure, they're a tribe of stoneworkers, but they're still elves. So they must be up to no good... right?
- Use patronage. It's one of the biggest differences Tuluk has from Allanak. It isn't as permanent or restrictive as employment. Best of all, nobles and templars are supposed to be fine with your character approaching them with a patronage offer.
- You don't need to be a hunting or bardic partisan, though those are two prominent examples in the Tuluk docs. What a partisan can offer is almost infinite - so too what a patron could offer in return.
- Be patient. Things aren't always happening right at the moment; there are as many low and high points of activity in Tuluk as there is in Allanak.
- Live for a couple of weeks, at least. Like in Allanak, you need to prove you're worth someone else's time.
- Off-peakers will have it harder, like anywhere else, but sometimes there are off-peak leaders and clans available.

[Riev]

Tuluk is for the Art Majors of the world. If you have to ask, you'll never know.

I'm sure a few players would be happy to help people break into what Tuluk is about.

My advice to those who want to "get" Tuluk would be to do one or more of these things:

- Be a citizen. Get the star tattoo on your hands and the band on your neck or above. May seem obvious to some, but it's important.
- If you think you'll be tempted to play solo, play a character in Tuluk that isn't primarily a hunter-gatherer. This will force you to try and find more fun inside the walls. Though you can certainly find fun inside the walls as a hunter-gatherer as well.
- Play someone who aspires to be one or more of the following: a bard, a licensed assassin, a licensed thief, a Legions soldier (or other type of templar employee) or a Noble House employee. Those are all roles that approach that layer where things move and shift.
- The Akai Sjir might be an interesting option for those that want to get into the mix. Sure, they're a tribe of stoneworkers, but they're still elves. So they must be up to no good... right?
- Use patronage. It's one of the biggest differences Tuluk has from Allanak. It isn't as permanent or restrictive as employment. Best of all, nobles and templars are supposed to be fine with your character approaching them with a patronage offer.
- You don't need to be a hunting or bardic partisan, though those are two prominent examples in the Tuluk docs. What a partisan can offer is almost infinite - so too what a patron could offer in return.
- Be patient. Things aren't always happening right at the moment; there are as many low and high points of activity in Tuluk as there is in Allanak.
- Live for a couple of weeks, at least. Like in Allanak, you need to prove you're worth someone else's time.
- Off-peakers will have it harder, like anywhere else, but sometimes there are off-peak leaders and clans available.

+1 for not just saying something elitist about Tuluk. All good ideas, especially

- You don't need to be a hunting or bardic partisan, though those are two prominent examples in the Tuluk docs. What a partisan can offer is almost infinite - so too what a patron could offer in return.

[musashi]

Or if you want to be in fear of your life every waking moment, playing a mage. Seriously.

There is an assumption that "You will be caught!" and it's true in that ... you know ... eventual sense. But from personal experience it's very possible to play a hidden magicker in the north who climbs the social ladder like anyone else. I've had something like 4 mages in my time who were Tuluki born, 3 of whom stayed in the north their whole life. Only 1 got "caught" and it wasn't even due to PC action. I was just a newb about the way magick interacted with the crim-code.

TL;DR: The "they know your every waking move and thought so being a criminal of any kind who doesn't have consent from the powers that be" is propaganda yo 

[Riya OniSenshi]

Or is it...

[RogueGunslinger]

Or is it...

Don't worry about Musashi, he's still a noob.

[Malken]

*this reply was mysteriously edited*

[BleakOne]

My very first character had brief contact with some people and learned some very interesting things about Tuluk. Scary shit.

[Red Ranger]

So, after reading the posts from the people that don't like Tuluk, I'm now confused.  Does Tuluk suck because it's easy mode where everything is handed to you on a platter... or does it suck because it's hard mode where only elitist Art Majors can get in on the action?

[RogueGunslinger]

So, after reading the posts from the people that don't like Tuluk, I'm now confused.  Does Tuluk suck because it's easy mode where everything is handed to you on a platter... or does it suck because it's hard mode where only elitist Art Majors can get in on the action?

Everyone knows blanket-statement, is why blanket-statement is true.

[Gilgamesh]

I've played this game for less than a year. I've played in both cities. But mostly Allanak. As a new player, Tuluk is not easy mode and Allanak is not hard mode. Both are pretty much the same thing with a different flavor. Hard mode is the Labyrinth.

[Dar]

Labyrinth is ... probably the easiest mode ever. You can be subtle up to your ears, or brutal as a raging mul, both extremes have a place in rinth. Everything is accepted in the labyrinth if you work enough at it, and nothing protects you from an "eventual" death if someone works enough at it.

I'd like to think I've played characters that have been on the shit list of the 'omniscient powers that be', as propaganda claims them to be and did not get dissapeared. So it 'is' possible. Unfortunately, it is ... pretty much impossible to be all that and be a loner at the same time, ever since the flooding of UnderTuluk anyway. So if you're going to make some enemies amongst powers that be, you 'must' have allies as well, or you will die. Is that really such a bad thing? That it requires more then your skills in stealth or combat, to survive the choices you make?

I dont really know about this whole subtlety thing. Maybe I'm not suitable for much subtlety, but to me ... the difference between a naki and a subtle tuluk range somewhere between, "I am soo going to fuck you up, you grimy kankfucker," and "Hrmm. Today is not one of your best days."

Tuluk is wondrous in theme, culture, methods, various other nicities, but unfortunately, for me ... it rarely gets as much of a rise out of me, then some things that tend to happen in Nak. I havent played in Tuluk for about half a year now, so I do not know how things are right now. But when I did, there were some ... very ... very awesome players there, very impressive characters. And I feel sad that I didnt get around to playing with them more. But the 'arena' of where that gameplay is to be held, just ... doesnt excite me somehow.

Thinking things through, I've never played any roles that were part of some specific clan, some specific idea, etc, except akai sjir a few years ago. Most of my tuluki roles ended up being to the poor, desperate-ish, downrotten spectre. So maybe playing in a clan and adopting its goals and ideas, instead of masterminding something of my own again is the right approach to enjoying Tuluk properly.


... I actually called my 'elven' akai sjir character as something different then the downrotten ones. And I was correct too. "head shake"

[Dalmeth]

Everyone knows blanket-statement, is why blanket-statement is true.

In all honesty, he's right.  The easy mode/hard mode comparisons are not very valid. People live and die in Tuluk as much they do in Allanak.

Tuluk is starkly different in that a person working for a noble house can look no different from anyone else.  A person of great importance to the Templarate can look just like an average hunter.  No discrete affiliations needed, because they'll generally have a history of service among the other powers of the city.

And that's the heart of it, right there.  In Tuluk, the administrators are paying attention, so a bit more of a show is demanded.  That's the only barrier to entry in Tuluk play.

[greasygemo]

Tuluk indulges the two-faced, rumor spreading, making people disappear casually without having to get my hands dirty, side of me, and I find that exceedingly fun.
Making 'friends' in Tuluk is tantamount to growing your own personal spynet, I think the most fun I've had thus far was a direct result of this kind of thing.
But, by God, it's hard if you can't type quickly enough to way and talk at the same time.... fortunately, I work for a call center. Mad typing skillz FTW. 

Could be biased, have only dabbled in 'nak. Got bored each time. Met few people. Didn't see much insanity. Maybe they were all bad weeks. I dunno.

[Akaramu]

Tuluk indulges the two-faced, rumor spreading, making people disappear casually without having to get my hands dirty, side of me, and I find that exceedingly fun.
Making 'friends' in Tuluk is tantamount to growing your own personal spynet

Allanak is the same, really. Not everything is public execution, there is a lot of two-facedness and rumors spreading, and friends or contacts are personal spynets everywhere in the Known.

[Scarecrow]

They seem pretty the same to me. You guys are over-thinking this stuff.

[musashi]

In Allanak at least the nobles and the templars can mudsex 

[Akaramu]

In Allanak at least the nobles and the templars can mudsex 

Right. They aren't as cranky due to years upon years of not getting any. 

[boog]

I dunno ... I just have to say, between the two city-states, I feel like I'm far less judged for being overly flowery (but not in a puffy, froofy way) for the way I emote and that people are actually more likely to sit and roleplay and wait for you to respond in Tuluk. In Allanak, I have to be fast-paced and yes, a bit more 'gritty'. I don't mind it. But, other than that, I don't find the two places that much different - I love them both. In fact, I love every area I've been to in game.

[My 2 sids]

Tuluk indulges the two-faced, rumor spreading, making people disappear casually without having to get my hands dirty, side of me, and I find that exceedingly fun.
Making 'friends' in Tuluk is tantamount to growing your own personal spynet

Allanak is the same, really. Not everything is public execution, there is a lot of two-facedness and rumors spreading, and friends or contacts are personal spynets everywhere in the Known.

I fear that when both cities start to feel similar, it takes away from both experiences.  Granted, people are going to be people the Known over; but, the cultures of each city-states are somewhat different.

Tuluk:  Independent PCs
I'm not talking about independently wealthy PCs!  Rather, the entire city-state is a mash-up of individual and egocentric groups who will join the group so long as it suits them and their interest.  They build a culture of agreed upon pleasantries to give outsiders an image of strength, but the inside joke is that is really just the picture of culture they wish to project - they themselves realize the true Tuluki culture in which everyone is out for themselves.   

When we talk about Tuluk being subtle it shouldn't just be >emote nod  instead of  >emote vigorously shakes his head up and down  From a game/ player base perspective this is where double-agents, spies, back-stabbers should be.  Playing more of a "Person vs. Person" type game.


Allanak:  Clanned PCs
I'm not talking everyone joining a house.  Rather, its that is well established and accepted that fate has told the PC "here is your slot in life".  It is much more "put other's needs first" because any shift in the stack-of-cards known as the hierarchy threatens to bring down everything.  That is, the various groups depend upon one another to play their part.  When we talk about harshness, we really mean transparency - everyone knows exactly who everyone else is and what part they play.  There is a sort of freedom that comes from knowing "I only have to do my part, others will do their part" 

Thus, from a game/player base perspective this is where those who wish to play to their skills (not twink, but let your dung sweep be a dung sweep  or your house guard be a guard) should be.   Playing more of a "Person vs. nature" type game.

[ShaLeah]

I seriously don't see that much difference in how people play in either place. For me the biggest difference is that when you go off with a Templar in Tuluk your chances aren't 99% to not return, they are 99% that you will return.  Oh, and in Tuluk humans are "subtle" about their hatred of elves (by subtle I mean... well you know what I mean), in Nak, hah, go ahead and try it.

All the crooks pay off the templars until caught by the wrong person.
All the social climbers social climb.
All the bards are uppity... and bard (thank you Allanak for NOT having THAT culture).
All curvy, silky beauties saunter, sashay, titter and flutter.
All rough hunters, mercs and grebbers drink ale, never dust off and got blood all over.
All soldiers are stalkers and spies.
Everyone hates gypsies.


I used to be a Tuluk hater until I sat back, played both and realized that all the fundimentals are the same and play according to whatever mood I want my new character to be. 

I prefer Nak because I totally get off on that constant nagging fear from log on to log off.

Haters gonna hate I guess.

[My 2 sids]

What does it add to the game to have different city-states in which all the fundamentals are basically the same?  Where any PC would always fit perfectly with in any starting location?     

[ShaLeah]

What does it add to the game to have different city-states in which all the fundamentals are basically the same?  Where any PC would always fit perfectly with in any starting location?     

Have you seen a single concept that couldn't be rearranged to another location?

Mentality of the player/character is what depicts where he or she would most likely fit in.

[My 2 sids]

Have you seen a single concept that couldn't be rearranged to another location?

Mentality of the player/character is what depicts where he or she would most likely fit in.

Where they fit in depends on their relationship to their culture.  And a culture isn't made up on one or even a handful of PCs - it belongs to all citizens, thus the need for documentation.


It's good players have a choice, a distinct choice, between city-states.

[Zoan]

I'd be terrified to play a Noble in Tuluk. All the other Chosen would swarm me for mudsex.

[Scarecrow]

I don't think most people "Act" Allanaki or Tuluki if they were born there. Most people, I think, have a character idea and play that regardless of starting city. I don't see starting city as having much influence over players. Allanak is the sandy place with beetles. Tuluk is the grassy place with gortoks. I don't think most people say to themselves "hmm, I'm a Tuluki/Allanaki, how will I react to this?" they just react in a certain way regardless.

[ShaLeah]

Where they fit in depends on their relationship to their culture.  And a culture isn't made up on one or even a handful of PCs - it belongs to all citizens, thus the need for documentation.

I disagree, with the amount of tribals in Tuluk, for example, who have their own culture, I'd say their choice in primary hang out (cause tribals really don't "live" in walls, now, do they?), is due to the lush flora and fauna, the plenty, their ability to survive outside. Plenty of citizens in Tuluk don't take part in the "culture", they go to the eat, spice and drink fests. They don't rhyme, they don't sculpt, they don't contribute squat to the culture. They contribute to shop stock and tavern profits. The need for documentation is also there so that the player can understand the place they chose to live in. Doesn't guarantee they'll partake. The fundimentals of the GAME don't change, the culture, history and traditions do. Any concept is playable in any city. It's all personal choice.

It's good players have a choice, a distinct choice, between city-states.

Agreed. The choice is not one game difference, it's one of detail difference. We're all playing the same game, we're all playing it in the same way, we're varying the story and that variation, imho, doesn't have as much to do with the differences in major city states as some people would like you to believe.

I don't think most people "Act" Allanaki or Tuluki if they were born there. Most people, I think, have a character idea and play that regardless of starting city. I don't see starting city as having much influence over players. Allanak is the sandy place with beetles. Tuluk is the grassy place with gortoks. I don't think most people say to themselves "hmm, I'm a Tuluki/Allanaki, how will I react to this?" they just react in a certain way regardless.

This I agree with. Not so long ago I had a Nakki character who ended up in Tuluk. Didn't change a damned thing about how she was but she thrived. Maybe that was the exception but I've seen lots of characters outside of GMH agents/traders/merchants go back and forth to both cities and act the same way.

[Morrolan]

Wait wait wait ... Allanak is subtle now? 

"Allanak is not subtle. Never subtle. Allanak is not subtle, and they never lie to you." he said, words weighted with implied meaning.