Nuances of Tuluk v. Allanak - Derail

[musashi]

I didn't mean to spawn the TZB thread off into a derail!  

As I see it, it goes both ways ... yes the nobility (and to a lesser degree the templarate) in Tuluk are more chill with commoners than they are in Allanak, but it's not just a case of the nobility slumming -- I would say your average Tuluki commoner has a bit more etiquette inside of them to pull out when dealing with the nobility. You know, little things, like not being caked in shit with no pants on when you go to a bar patroned by the upper class. There's a tavern for that ... it's just in the Warrens closer to the rest of the shit stained pantless masses.

The commoners likely have more etiquette "training" than a commoner in Allanak because hey, they spend more time around their nobility. So I think there's a middle ground to be had there.

Tuluki culture still very much considers the upper castes to be better than the lower ones by birthrite. The liberation and occupation period endeared the common people to the nobles, but in the same way a person can be endeared to a faithful dog that saved their life. -- You might seriously love that dog like a member of your own family ... but it's still a dog ... and you probably shouldn't be fucking it.

So in short, I think you can totally be rough and tumble in Tuluk, but you need to roll it back when you're around your social betters. Save it for the other commoners.

[MeTekillot]

I don't think it's really viable to be rough and tumble in Tuluk. Nobility can frequent almost the bars. The ones they don't are the ones in bumfuck hidey-hole. Public violence of any kind is outlawed. Folks get arrested for brawl code there. If you're gritty and gnashy, you get assassinated or disappeared. Or people just completely ignore you in general.

[Reiloth]

I don't think it's really viable to be rough and tumble in Tuluk.

I don't think that's exactly the truth. There are plenty of hunters, which are pretty rough and tumble. They don't walk up to people and punch them in the face, but they aren't exactly wearing silks. There are criminal elements, both elves and humans and inbetween, that crop up. People do get murdered, there just isn't a stack of bodies in the street. It's legal to murder people in Tuluk -- You just need to go through the right avenue. Contrariwise, it isn't legal to murder people in Allanak. Which is more rough and tumble? I guess you can't walk up to someone, insult them, and draw a knife (or expect them to draw a knife) and fight in the streets. If that's rough and tumble...Well...Count me out!

Nobility can frequent almost the bars.

Nobles can technically frequent whatever bar they want (in both City States). They're Nobles! But if it isn't one of a few that come to mind, they would probably be made fun of by their peers. I think the same can be said of Allanak.

The ones they don't are the ones in bumfuck hidey-hole.

Not sure what you mean here -- Tuluk's kind of big and the bars are spread out I guess. It's not like people don't spam walk inbetween them and know the distance by heart.

Public violence of any kind is outlawed.

Pretty true, but public violence isn't exactly legal in Allanak. You can't walk up to someone and shank them, unless you're in the Labyrinth (or good at hiding from the Law).

Folks get arrested for brawl code there. If you're gritty and gnashy, you get assassinated or disappeared. Or people just completely ignore you in general.

Also not really true and vague? There's brawl code in a few of the taverns, and you don't get arrested (Unless you mean by a PC?) if you're brawling. The same is true in Allanak. I think most of "Tuluk is for sissies" is conceived by we the players. It's also a magnet for newer players (Maybe after their first few characters in Allanak or Red Storm, as was the case for me) and it's pretty easy (in comparison to Allanak) to stay alive, even if it's your first PC. I think this tends to lead towards long-term relationships and friendships, and when people get disappeared or slighted, they react by saying "Why did you do this to my friend? Why?", questioning the powers that be, when realistically, in Tuluk, people should keep their eyes forward and forget that person ever existed (unless they want to risk disappearing themselves).

I've seen Tuluk in a few different incarnations, and I think depending on who is playing there, the atmosphere changes pretty drastically. I'd say that's also true in Allanak, and of the two, Tuluk seems better documented, leading to (IMHO) more depth outside of personal relationships. I like Tuluk quite a bit -- I like Allanak too, but Tuluk was my major stomping ground when I was a newb, and i'm glad it exists. I think you'd be surprised how well a rough and tumble assassin or hunter can do in Tuluk, it just requires playing by the book. Follow the rules in Tuluk, and you'd be surprised how much corruption and betrayal and murder there is.

[BleakOne]

My comment on the other thread wasn't that there is no grit in Tuluk, just that the style of grit in the Byn is very much more akin to Allanak. Throwing shit at someone, getting drunk, brawling, then laughing about it and forgetting it happened.

[Synthesis]

My comment on the other thread wasn't that there is no grit in Tuluk, just that the style of grit in the Byn is very much more akin to Allanak. Throwing shit at someone, getting drunk, brawling, then laughing about it and forgetting it happened.

That's the style of grit in the southern Byn.

Since the northern Byn is made up of northerners, it stands to reason that they'd you know...behave like northerners.

[Red Ranger]

It appears to me that the people that think that there can't be "grit" in Tuluk are the ones that don't really understand Tuluk.  There's plenty of potential for grit, if by "grit" one means lower class life that is dusty and dingy and desperate.  However, if by "grit" one means the ability to act like a total f**kwad without having to face dire IC consequences, then there isn't much grit in Tuluk.

In my opinion, one major difference between Allanak and Tuluk is in the involvement of the Powers That Be.  In Allanak, the Powers that Be won't lift a finger unless you're directly bothering them.  You can live or die or barbecue dead neighbors on the curbside and the Powers That Be won't care, as long as you aren't injuring them, making them look bad, or making more work for them. Therefore you can go around yelling sh*tc*ck! to your heart's content, and as long as you don't cause trouble for one of those Powers That Be, you're in the clear.  Tuluk, however, is different because the Power That Be care about you.  They care enough to watch your every move.  Unlike in Allanak where you can get by just by not drawing attention to yourself, in Tuluk you can get in trouble for not drawing enough attention to yourself.  If you don't sing loudly enough in church on Sunday, you might just have to visit Room 101 and learn what it really means to love Big Brother.

Allanak is openly violent and tumultuous like the movies Escape from New York or No Escape, and the Powers That Be are the ones with the guns.  Tuluk is like the novel 1984 or the movie Equilibrium, where the violence is institutional and out of the public eye.  Not everyone understands or appreciates the differences, and if you want to go around yelling sh*tc*ck! at people in Tuluk you're going to find yourself assassinated or disappeared.  That's the way it's supposed to be in Tuluk.  And I think that's pretty hardcore.

[kayza]

Both are awesome.

Find out IC.

[Zoan]

Vrum vrum it's the hatecycle.

[BleakOne]

It appears to me that the people that think that there can't be "grit" in Tuluk are the ones that don't really understand Tuluk.  There's plenty of potential for grit, if by "grit" one means lower class life that is dusty and dingy and desperate.  However, if by "grit" one means the ability to act like a total f**kwad without having to face dire IC consequences, then there isn't much grit in Tuluk.

In my opinion, one major difference between Allanak and Tuluk is in the involvement of the Powers That Be.  In Allanak, the Powers that Be won't lift a finger unless you're directly bothering them.  You can live or die or barbecue dead neighbors on the curbside and the Powers That Be won't care, as long as you aren't injuring them, making them look bad, or making more work for them. Therefore you can go around yelling sh*tc*ck! to your heart's content, and as long as you don't cause trouble for one of those Powers That Be, you're in the clear.  Tuluk, however, is different because the Power That Be care about you.  They care enough to watch your every move.  Unlike in Allanak where you can get by just by not drawing attention to yourself, in Tuluk you can get in trouble for not drawing enough attention to yourself.  If you don't sing loudly enough in church on Sunday, you might just have to visit Room 101 and learn what it really means to love Big Brother.

Allanak is openly violent and tumultuous like the movies Escape from New York or No Escape, and the Powers That Be are the ones with the guns.  Tuluk is like the novel 1984 or the movie Equilibrium, where the violence is institutional and out of the public eye.  Not everyone understands or appreciates the differences, and if you want to go around yelling sh*tc*ck! at people in Tuluk you're going to find yourself assassinated or disappeared.  That's the way it's supposed to be in Tuluk.  And I think that's pretty hardcore.

Put it better than I could have.

[Akaramu]

I disagree that people in Allanak can act like a total f**wad and get away with it - not even nobles and templars. The effects might be subtle and not apparent to everyone, but there are always consequences. If lowly commoners get away with it, chances are certain groups ingame aren't active enough to prevent them from doing so.
(Unless it's breeds and other misfits that are targeted, then it's okay.) 

[musashi]

Wait wait wait ... Allanak is subtle now? 

[Suhuy]

Wait wait wait ... Allanak is subtle now? 

I think Allanak has always been subtle, dating long before New Tuluk and its current concept were even written. The elves of the Haruch Kemad, for those who may remember them, had to be very subtle if they were to accomplish their goals. Behaving loudly or overtly would only serve to hinder their success. Nobles and their servants also need to be subtle in many ways, as do merchants. The whole world envies them and they are all trying to get the upper hand against one another. Hiding one's motives and keeping your cool are the best two ways to ensure you have the upper hand, and Allanak knows this. One word to describe this type of behavior would be discreet. Another is subtle.

I think the idea that Allanak has a concept of in-your-face crudeness is actually something created by the Tuluki enthusiasts as a way of differentiating Tuluk from Allanak. As in, "Hey, we're supposed to be discreet and not talk openly about certain topics, this must therefore mean that Allanak is the exact opposite." The fact of the matter is that Tuluk and Allanak are -not- polar opposites of one another. They're different cultures, but they are not yin and yang. For every difference they have I can name a similarity. They are both city-states; they are both ruled by sorcerer-kings; they are both policed by templars; their templars, however different they may be, both speak the same language; they both have a hierarchy composed of slaves, commoners and nobles, etc.

I think players often get confused by looking at the more obvious differences and concluding that Allanak has this crude, raw, rough and tumble atmosphere when the fact of the matter is that this is only true in certain parts of BOTH city-states. They see that Allanak displays the heads of criminals on spears for display, where as in Tuluk this is more taboo, and decide that this must be a concept which permeates every level of Allanaki society. But that's just plain not true. The Allanaki are open and in-your-face in some aspects, while in others they are the very definition of subtlety. A nobleman who attends the party of one of their adversaries and is all smiles and pretending to be close friends, while secretly plotting to have them assassinated, is a perfect example of the type of subtlety required in Allanaki society. And by the same token, a 'Rinth elf might employ the exact same sort of subtlety against one of their neighboring factions.

Tuluk and Allanak are different. This much goes without saying. But they are also very similar in many ways and, in fact, it may be their similarities, not their differences, which make them adversaries in the first place.

[musashi]

Well spoken sir.

[Cind]

If I had no choice in the matter and had to choose between playing a criminal in Tuluk and a criminal in Allanak for the next RL week, I would pick Tuluk--- and I'm a hardcore Allanak fan, here. That shit that goes down in Tuluk, man. Shivers, up and down my spine remembering that.

Why am I an Allanaki fan? The grit style of Allanak aside, it is entirely because I most enjoy playing random nobody indies who don't know how to read and write, aren't employed by a powerful clan, and do not have involvements with powerful people, regular pcs who just get by. When playing this type of role in Tuluk, you rarely get to see the horrors of that city, at least in my experience. In Allanak, sometimes cruelty and oppression run screaming out of the bar when the templar enters, followed by a bloody public mauling in which the templar OOCs this is going to be gruesome. everyone who can't stand me pulling this guy's fingers through his heart like sewing needles, leave now. And I don't need to be doing the slightest bit of social status upgrading on my own part to see it.

[AmandaGreathouse]

I have to say, one of the best RP'd elves I've ever seen... was in Nak. I think they were independent, too.

They had a name or their tribe was named something about Kanjels. It was just beautiful to watch. They'd involve vnpcs, people treated them like I picture elves should be treated, and every time I was around them, I'd always find myself checking everything once I was left, because they gave off a subtle used car salesman vibe of 'You're getting screwed over'.

I really enjoyed playing in Tuluk the first year I was playing. After that... Allanak, all the way.

In Tuluk, it feels like even the 'gritty' people are as civilized and cushy as nobles aides are in Nak, and that's just not how my dystopian arm is supposed to feel, to me.

Yes, there is supposed to be that 'vibe' in Tuluk of big brother et al, but I never see it the way I picture it would be. I'm picturing the upper class from 1984, and instead, they all seem to be indoctrinated. I see no Winston Smiths, and that makes the story a good deal less compelling to me.

[Red Ranger]

Yes, there is supposed to be that 'vibe' in Tuluk of big brother et al, but I never see it the way I picture it would be. I'm picturing the upper class from 1984, and instead, they all seem to be indoctrinated. I see no Winston Smiths, and that makes the story a good deal less compelling to me.

If you don't like Tuluk because you don't see any Winston Smiths... why not make your next PC be a Winston Smith of Tuluk?

Be the Change etc. etc.

[Kalai]

Perhaps you've only happened to meet them after the end of the book.

[AmandaGreathouse]

Yes, there is supposed to be that 'vibe' in Tuluk of big brother et al, but I never see it the way I picture it would be. I'm picturing the upper class from 1984, and instead, they all seem to be indoctrinated. I see no Winston Smiths, and that makes the story a good deal less compelling to me.

If you don't like Tuluk because you don't see any Winston Smiths... why not make your next PC be a Winston Smith of Tuluk?

Be the Change etc. etc.

Honestly? Because I really don't enjoy it enough to deal with being the only one there doing it.

[palomar]

I like Allanak, but I enjoy Tuluk more and it's because the way the northern society works. As previous posters have noted, there are many similarities between the city-states. An example that wasn't mentioned before was that there's a wording in the docs about noble subtlety that is very similar for both regions.

However, there is a tradition of being more direct in Allanak while in Tuluk things predominantly happen behind the scenes. It not just in regards to violence, but violence is very obvious so it's often used as an example.

While the geography of the northlands to some extent is easier to survive than the southlands, it's far from "easy mode". Veteran and semi-veteran players can have their PCs survive just about anywhere, anyway. And when it comes to society, social rules and what have you, Tuluk is difficult. It takes a lot of effort and time to get it. Some players may never come to appreciate it or understand it, and that's fine. Personally, I'm happy about both the similarities and the differences.

[Riya OniSenshi]

There's frequent use of the word "grit", but Indigo Montoya doesn't think that word means what some of you think it means...

[Narf]

And when it comes to society, social rules and what have you, Tuluk is difficult. It takes a lot of effort and time to get it. Some players may never come to appreciate it or understand it, and that's fine. Personally, I'm happy about both the similarities and the differences.

This is sometimes true, but I find enforcement of the social mores in Tuluk to be somewhat sporadic. Somone should put out a guide to enforcing social mores for commoners by commoners (since most players are commoners, and nobles can enforce social mores pretty easily already).

I will not be the change though. I am one of the many who actually need the guide.

[Cutthroat]

Suhuy, Red Ranger, and palomar pretty much said many of the things I wanted to say, so...

Arguably you could say that Tuluk has a higher barrier to entry in the "hardcore" player-against-player action than Allanak. After all, to get into the behind-the-scenes action of Tuluk without being a victim of said action, you generally have to earn the trust of higher-up people, which is probably easier in Tuluk than it is in Allanak. But to get into the mix in Allanak, you basically just have to be in the clan or have the friends that deal with killing things or pushing people around. But similarities are there between the cities, too.

If you think it's impossible to play a person in Tuluk that is generally disliked by authorities but also not worth their time to deal with in a more permanent fashion, you are probably just pushing your luck a bit too much. Like in Allanak, there's a system that puts people in their place. So put on your pants, come to Tuluk and find another way to be a jerk. There are plenty available.

You don't have to like that, but it is possible to appreciate the difference.

[Patuk]

.. I'm really glad for all the posters that are finding their vibe in Tuluk, that say it is by no means a nicer place than Allanak, that there -are- things going on and that one merely needs to look for them, but even so, no amount of poking around in whatever fashion has ever had me come across it. If you're enjoying things, that's good, but I don't think that having good RP being as inaccessible as this is a good thing in the end.

[Reiloth]

.. I'm really glad for all the posters that are finding their vibe in Tuluk, that say it is by no means a nicer place than Allanak, that there -are- things going on and that one merely needs to look for them, but even so, no amount of poking around in whatever fashion has ever had me come across it. If you're enjoying things, that's good, but I don't think that having good RP being as inaccessible as this is a good thing in the end.

Just because you have not found access does not mean it is inaccessible. I think plenty of newer players, even, can find the juicy stuff. Just requires patience and perception.

[palomar]

.. I'm really glad for all the posters that are finding their vibe in Tuluk, that say it is by no means a nicer place than Allanak, that there -are- things going on and that one merely needs to look for them, but even so, no amount of poking around in whatever fashion has ever had me come across it. If you're enjoying things, that's good, but I don't think that having good RP being as inaccessible as this is a good thing in the end.

It truly isn't buried under 99 feet of rock, but rather hidden just beneath the surface. A pleasant surface is extremely important in Tuluk.

... I just re-read what you wrote and I'll correct myself: Most unpleasantries etc are hidden beneath the surface. Good RP is possible to find everywhere. Contact a Helper if you want to give it another try and feel you need a bit of direction.