All Those Lost Crafting Recipes of Long Ago

[redkank]

Wouldn't it be neat if you could look up an item based on one of the components used to craft it?  Example I have object X in my inventory.  I RESEARCH X and it pulls a list of objects that I am capable of making with my skills/clan that could be made with X as one of the components.  Then I use another skill, possibly ENGINEER (item in inventory) (item I want to learn how to make from the research list) to get the additional components.  Doing this would eliminate the need for many documents of personal database creation and bookwork by the player, and would shift it to more of an ingame approach especially for new crafters.

[Qzzrbl]

TRIAL AND ERROR ALL DAY ERRYDAY

[Orin]

But this would make all those google docs spreadsheets people make obsolete!

...I like it and would play a merchant for the second time if this was implemented.

[boog]

But this would make all those google docs spreadsheets people make obsolete!

...I like it and would play a merchant for the second time if this was implemented.

God, yes. I wish I woulda known I wouldn't remember everything after my first merchant. I keep thinking I know this recipe or that and I DO NOT REMEMBER JACK SHIT.

The next time around, god dammit, the next time around ...

[Potaje]

could try compiling one icly, by buying receipts from other merchants in game. 

[Maker]

Building my database currently.  'trial and error'...you ain't kidding.

[John]

God, yes. I wish I woulda known I wouldn't remember everything after my first merchant. I keep thinking I know this recipe or that and I DO NOT REMEMBER JACK SHIT.

Well your current merchant wouldn't know it, so it actually makes sense.

I dunno. I can see the appeal but if I have a "white piece of sandcloth" I shouldn't automatically know that if I obtain ULTRA RARE ITEM THAT NO-ONE KNOWS ABOUT EXCEPT 2 PLAYERS I can make a killer dress.

So I can certainly see the appeal of all those WTF moments. But I can see the downside as well.

I'm also not a fan of people keeping spreadsheets between characters and using that to gain an advantage on their next character.

[Qzzrbl]

I'm also not a fan of people keeping spreadsheets between characters and using that to gain an advantage on their next character.

I'd agree with you here if the current crafting system wasn't so all over the place.

Keep in mind, if a customer asks for a club made out of fuckwood-- it's less frustrating to the player of the crafter to have previously discovered recipes written down.

'Cause there's a huge difference between a knotted length of fuckwood, and a knotty length of fuckwood.

[hyzhenhok]

God, yes. I wish I woulda known I wouldn't remember everything after my first merchant. I keep thinking I know this recipe or that and I DO NOT REMEMBER JACK SHIT.

Well your current merchant wouldn't know it, so it actually makes sense.

I dunno. I can see the appeal but if I have a "white piece of sandcloth" I shouldn't automatically know that if I obtain ULTRA RARE ITEM THAT NO-ONE KNOWS ABOUT EXCEPT 2 PLAYERS I can make a killer dress.

So I can certainly see the appeal of all those WTF moments. But I can see the downside as well.

I'm also not a fan of people keeping spreadsheets between characters and using that to gain an advantage on their next character.

I don't see how this is any different than all other sorts of other IC information. It's the player's responsibility to roleplay what his character should and shouldn't know believably, true. But when it comes to rolling characters beyond 'stupid hick who never left his farming village until today,' you actually need that IC knowledge to play your character believably. This applies to PC crafters as well--guild_merchants often have mercantile or crafting backgrounds, and it doesn't make sense for them to be fumbling around completely in the dark and there are plenty of feasible IC explanations for why someone's theoretical knowledge of how to make things would exceed their technical expertise.

[FantasyWriter]

What the purple baby silt horror said.

[X-D]

I am all for the OP idea.

After all, if your skill is high enough you DO know how to make it...ICly, it is OOC knowledge that is lacking.

Besides, With such a system if you did not have the skill high enough it would not show the killer dress...or if you are not in the killer dress clan.

[Maso]

God, yes. I wish I woulda known I wouldn't remember everything after my first merchant. I keep thinking I know this recipe or that and I DO NOT REMEMBER JACK SHIT.

Well your current merchant wouldn't know it, so it actually makes sense.

I dunno. I can see the appeal but if I have a "white piece of sandcloth" I shouldn't automatically know that if I obtain ULTRA RARE ITEM THAT NO-ONE KNOWS ABOUT EXCEPT 2 PLAYERS I can make a killer dress.

So I can certainly see the appeal of all those WTF moments. But I can see the downside as well.

I'm also not a fan of people keeping spreadsheets between characters and using that to gain an advantage on their next character.

I thought I hate the idea, but when I thought about it...it makes a lot of sense.

On an IC level...you should totally know. Especially if you are a master crafter...because you should be able to make -anything- you want. So since you can technically make -anything- you want in your area of expertise anyway...knowing what recipes already exist would just be handy and stop duplication via master crafting, and give people a little more to play with, and bring some interesting 'lost' items back into the game.

I can open my fridge and see I have potato and think...well, if I go get some tuna...I could make baked potato with tuna. I don't need the tuna to figure it out. In fact, if I went out and got -anything at all-, I could stick it on the baked potato.

Maybe it could be a function of analyze if you are a -master- at the required skill. I bet most of the really interesting ones are clan only stuff. Most the items in game don't seem to be craftable anyway...so adding a few more to the mix of what crafters get to play with, would be sweeeeeet.

[Spoon]

I don't get how you should know how to make something you've never made/seen before from one of it's component parts. Am I misinterpreting this?

[My 2 sids]

I don't get how you should know how to make something you've never made/seen before from one of it's component parts. Am I misinterpreting this?

Because by the time you get a little skills down in the basics, you start to recognize what does and what doesn't work together.

If your character knows fabric and has been around fabric... they can basically figure out how to make something just from the description.   As in, a quilter could figure out a certain pattern simply by knowing the materials and lingo.

It may not be the best, but it's good.

[Maso]

I don't get how you should know how to make something you've never made/seen before from one of it's component parts. Am I misinterpreting this?

Because if you're a master at crafting...then you should probably have the IC skills required to 'design' something from scratch...which you can do with master crafting...which essentially means you should be able to figure out pretty much anything?

How about...the occasional chance to get a glimpse at a full recipe sometimes when you analyze something at master level?

analyze wood
> you can make blah
> you can make blah
> you think you might be able to make a sword with this and a chunk of obsidian - very rarely

[Patuk]

I honestly don't see who benefits from god knows how many recipes being either lost or restricted to people who either spent an ungodly amount of time practicing trial and error tactics, have friends, or who have simply played the game for a longer time.

[boog]

I don't get how you should know how to make something you've never made/seen before from one of it's component parts. Am I misinterpreting this?

Because if you're a master at crafting...then you should probably have the IC skills required to 'design' something from scratch...which you can do with master crafting...which essentially means you should be able to figure out pretty much anything?

How about...the occasional chance to get a glimpse at a full recipe sometimes when you analyze something at master level?

analyze wood
> you can make blah
> you can make blah
> you think you might be able to make a sword with this and a chunk of obsidian - very rarely

I like this idea.  - Though very rarely ... people'd just spam analyze. Heh. I think analyzing a material would be awesome.

I guess my BIGGEST problem right now is that I remember all the clanned recipes, but not the unclanned. Anyway, I just hate the crafting system. I can't remember a darn thing, especially not with preggers brain. I agree with hyz's post: I trust myself and 90% of other players playing merchants to not go and make the most profitable items that they have collected on a spreadsheet right off the bat. I remember documentation and lore, but depending on my role, I don't go spouting off wisdom about all of it.

[AmandaGreathouse]

I honestly like the idea a lot. It would bring the crafting system a little closer to the one part of Dark Isles crafting system I enjoyed, wherein you didn't have people with 10 years playing experience keeping spreadsheets and having a ton of knowledge that new players couldn't acquire even when and if their merchant mastered every craft.

I'm all for making things more fun when it comes to crafting stuff. There's a ton of recipes most people will never see or find or get because they take 4 or 5 items. Now... with probably a thousand or so raw material items in the game, that's a ton of possible combinations that no one is likely to find without assistance or a spreadsheet. Diversifying the world is not a bad thing. Variety keeps things fun and interesting.

[My 2 sids]

Maybe it's not individual items that are brought up, but rather the materials themselves?  After all, if I'm at the market and pick up an herb I've never used before it's not the recipe per say that I'm thinking of, rather I compare the new herb with something similar and then try to use the new herb like that.

Perhaps "guess" could even be a branch off analize.   

Code Select Expand


> guess wood
> you can make A
> you can make B
> you can make C

> [i]you guess wood may work well with obsidian[/i]   

Now the PC has to figure out which exact obsidian could be used for the recipe, but would still have a good general idea of what to craft with what.

[Maker]

Personally, I wish it were set up that every branch could be made into a haft and every stone could be made into a hammer head and any haft and any head could be assembled into a hammer.  Then have stats for various materials such that each has various strengths and weaknesses in various crafted objects.  Set up general recipes that say, for example, you need an x, a y and a z object to assemble into a steel broadsword.  Whatever materials you use to make an x, a y, and a z is up to you and the overall qulity of the sword depends on what materials you used adn your skill level. 

Granted, I know a system like this would require a re-work of pretty much everything from item stats to recipes to materials.  I didn't say it was going to happen.  Just think it would be more realistic.

[Jeshin]

Maker you're looking at ARM 2 crafting basically. It would have a system like that.

[Maso]

Maker you're looking at ARM 2 crafting basically. It would have a system like that.

It would of had.

I don't think herbs would be involved much in this anyway...since they come under brewing...which is a whole other kettle of cockroaches.

[Maker]

Maker you're looking at ARM 2 crafting basically. It would have a system like that.

Well, I read somewhere Arm 2 is killed, but a lot of the ideas suggested for it were staying on the possible to do list.  Anyone know if this is one of those ideas?

[Maso]

I think that would be pretty enormous. I recall there being a mention of continuing to develop the codebase (is that the right word) that Arm 2 was going to be built on...and a very vague possibility that it may one day be implemented but that this was also highly unlikely...but still a tiny weeny bit possible.

I figure they would need that to make the changes to crafting.

I think most problems could just be resolved from having MORE RECIPES. Yayyyy!!!

[musashi]

I'm not really in favor of the OP. In real life, developing new and novel designs one has never made before takes a lot of time and effort, and we have this expressed in game via the mastercraft system. Reverse engineering something that's already been made is the short cut you can take to piggy back off the hard work of people who have come before you but you really need a finished product to easily accomplish this. One does not look at a hinge and simply gather the knowledge to make the whole chest of drawers intuitively.

I think our analyze function does an ok job of letting us reverse engineer stuff, but it can be a pain sometimes if the craft you're doing is a multi step one.

What I would like to see implemented is analyze as an actual skill, wherein when you analyze something you have a chance of figuring out its components, and at higher levels, the prerequisites to those components if there are any. So for example, not only would you know that the wardrobe is made from wood planks, you would also be told those wood planks came from a knotty log of fuckwood.

[Maso]

I'm not really in favor of the OP. In real life, developing new and novel designs one has never made before takes a lot of time and effort, and we have this expressed in game via the mastercraft system.

Personally I think it's too far the other way. Want to mastercraft something for someone, tell them they should expect to wait several YEARS for that strappy stress you're designing for them? Uhmmm...it's a bit overkill tbh, but I understand the need to take the weight off staff, but it is by no means a realistic time frame for designing a basic product. Maybe if they were inventing the car. Or a time machine.

So giving a few hints every now and then to new and exciting recipes...could just be a bit of balance.

[FantasyWriter]

My suggestion:

Put a roll call out for one to three builders to go through the database and make everything (everything that is appropriate, I mean) craftable.
I know I would volunteer.

Set some of the generic shops to pull random, non-clanned, items that fit the shops' "types".



Welcome to Craftergeddon.

[boog]

^

That wouldn't solve anything! We still wouldn't know how to make those items, durnit!

[FantasyWriter]

^

That wouldn't solve anything! We still wouldn't know how to make those items, durnit!

My suggestion:

Put a roll call out for one to three builders to go through the database and make everything (everything that is appropriate, I mean) craftable.
I know I would volunteer.

Set some of the generic shops to pull random, non-clanned, items that fit the shops' "types"


Welcome to Craftergeddon.

>help skill analyze

If everything were craftable, and random items were popping all over the place, we could "discover" new craftables and old ones without any "spoilers."


Make better sense? I don't seem to be doing very well at that lately, lol. Or so saith the wife.

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

I'm 100% in favor of the original poster's idea.

[boog]

^

That wouldn't solve anything! We still wouldn't know how to make those items, durnit!

My suggestion:

Put a roll call out for one to three builders to go through the database and make everything (everything that is appropriate, I mean) craftable.
I know I would volunteer.

Set some of the generic shops to pull random, non-clanned, items that fit the shops' "types"


Welcome to Craftergeddon.

>help skill analyze

If everything were craftable, and random items were popping all over the place, we could "discover" new craftables and old ones without any "spoilers."


Make better sense? I don't seem to be doing very well at that lately, lol. Or so saith the wife.

Oh. Right. Derp.

[musashi]

I'm not really in favor of the OP. In real life, developing new and novel designs one has never made before takes a lot of time and effort, and we have this expressed in game via the mastercraft system.

Personally I think it's too far the other way. Want to mastercraft something for someone, tell them they should expect to wait several YEARS for that strappy stress you're designing for them? Uhmmm...it's a bit overkill tbh, but I understand the need to take the weight off staff, but it is by no means a realistic time frame for designing a basic product. Maybe if they were inventing the car. Or a time machine.

So giving a few hints every now and then to new and exciting recipes...could just be a bit of balance.

It doesn't take years IG to mastercraft something basic. It takes 1 RL month. Which is pretty reasonable.
But you can experience longer delays if the thing you want calls for a lot of something, or a rare something, or several rare somethings, or if the merchant doing it for you dies/stores, or if they just don't like your PC and never put the submission in ...

EDIT TO ADD: I'd actually like to see Nyr get all data-fu up in this thread and let us know roughly how many craftable items are currently not in game at all because no one knows how to craft them anymore. Might shed some light on the actual scope of the problem.

[Maso]

I always got the impression it took longer than that. It doesn't say in the helpfile how long it will take to turn around, just how often you can submit them. My bad!

[Wug]

EDIT TO ADD: I'd actually like to see Nyr get all data-fu up in this thread and let us know roughly how many craftable items are currently not in game at all because no one knows how to craft them anymore. Might shed some light on the actual scope of the problem.

I checked. The number of "lost' recipes is vanishingly small.

[hyzhenhok]

My suggestion:

Put a roll call out for one to three builders to go through the database and make everything (everything that is appropriate, I mean) craftable.
I know I would volunteer.

This, of course, would be awesome and amazing. I would roll a merchant.

[Maker]

My suggestion:

Put a roll call out for one to three builders to go through the database and make everything (everything that is appropriate, I mean) craftable.
I know I would volunteer.

This, of course, would be awesome and amazing. I would roll a merchant.

Honestly, I think there are far too many PC merchants as it is.  I, for one, am in favor of doing whatever we can to discourage merchant apps.

[boog]

My suggestion:

Put a roll call out for one to three builders to go through the database and make everything (everything that is appropriate, I mean) craftable.
I know I would volunteer.

This, of course, would be awesome and amazing. I would roll a merchant.

Honestly, I think there are far too many PC merchants as it is.  I, for one, am in favor of doing whatever we can to discourage merchant apps.

Cereal? Huh.

[Tenua]

I always got the impression it took longer than that. It doesn't say in the helpfile how long it will take to turn around, just how often you can submit them. My bad!

Wait time on CUSTOM items is an IG year, unless said Merchant is already working on one, and has others waiting.

Example:
Lord Fancypants goes to Kadius and wants a full outfit designed for him and him alone. That's hat, fancy frilly collar, billowing tunic with House colors and image embrodiered, matching pants, frilly shoes that match the collar...... That's 5 items. That's 5 IG years to complete this ONE order. You can only submit ONE item a month. Not one item per Mastered Skill.

These things do happen. A lot. This is where the long wait times come in. More people need to play Merchant who Master skills!

[Marc]

I always got the impression it took longer than that. It doesn't say in the helpfile how long it will take to turn around, just how often you can submit them. My bad!

Wait time on CUSTOM items is an IG year, unless said Merchant is already working on one, and has others waiting.

Example:
Lord Fancypants goes to Kadius and wants a full outfit designed for him and him alone. That's hat, fancy frilly collar, billowing tunic with House colors and image embrodiered, matching pants, frilly shoes that match the collar...... That's 5 items. That's 5 IG years to complete this ONE order. You can only submit ONE item a month. Not one item per Mastered Skill.

These things do happen. A lot. This is where the long wait times come in. More people need to play Merchant who Master skills!

Or people need to be "OK" with that "plain silk shirt" "plain frilly collar"  "plain hat" etc.  Custom orders are poo poo.  They are nifty here and there, but these dreams of custom tips to toes is OOC selfish.  ICly Fashion is set by a certain House.  If you want new clothes, buy their stuff on rotation.  It's what's stylish at the moment.  It's the hip fashion.  The hip color.  If your character is so conceeded/rich that they would have custom gear, RP it.  Hire a PC as a tailor.  Sure, they might not give you a wardrobe full of unique gear, but they can RP customizing a whole damn outfit.  It's just gonna happen to have sdesc similar to what others might have.  Whoopedy-doo.

Instead use your mastercrafts and expand our crafting library!

[Maso]

Now I want to play a character that is an independent personal tailor and stylist to the....stars (highborn)!

[Delirium]

I played a snobby Kadian that essentially became Ceylara Borsail's personal stylist... it was a lot of fun putting appropriate outfits together.

I highly recommend that sort of role... paying attention to gameworld fashion is more rewarding than one might initially think.

[Maso]

I played a snobby Kadian that essentially became Ceylara Borsail's personal stylist... it was a lot of fun putting appropriate outfits together.

I highly recommend that sort of role... paying attention to gameworld fashion is more rewarding than one might initially think.

Were you responsible for the wedding dress? :p

[Delirium]

I don't think so... I don't recall her being married while I was playing around her. Alas, I got brutally murdered.

[Maso]

I don't think so... I don't recall her being married while I was playing around her. Alas, I got brutally murdered.

That's a perfect ending for any Allanaki.

[Delirium]

Especially a Tuluki ex-pat Allanaki.... fun times.

[Orin]

Would it be more fitting if it was a learned-over-time type deal? For example:

Code Select Expand

>craft dung
You don't know how to craft anything from that.

>craft dung 2.dung
You could craft a dried dung patty from that.

>craft dung 2.dung into a dried dung patty
You set to work crafting...

You have crafted a dried dung patty!
>craft dung
If you had two dung's, you could craft:
a dried dung patty


In this situation you would have had to craft it at least once, but then after that you could see the possibilities.  It would still be trial and error, but would show an IC progression over time where you learned new recipes.

[musashi]

I always got the impression it took longer than that. It doesn't say in the helpfile how long it will take to turn around, just how often you can submit them. My bad!

Wait time on CUSTOM items is an IG year, unless said Merchant is already working on one, and has others waiting.

Example:
Lord Fancypants goes to Kadius and wants a full outfit designed for him and him alone. That's hat, fancy frilly collar, billowing tunic with House colors and image embrodiered, matching pants, frilly shoes that match the collar...... That's 5 items. That's 5 IG years to complete this ONE order. You can only submit ONE item a month. Not one item per Mastered Skill.

These things do happen. A lot. This is where the long wait times come in. More people need to play Merchant who Master skills!

One IG year is ... 1.5 RL months. So I was off by 2 weeks. You get your master craft item you submitted 2 weeks after you submit your next one. This isn't a long time.

The cap of 1 submisison per month instead of per mastercrafted skill ... I guess one could make an IG case about the merchent needing to focus all their effort on the one novel design they're working on but, really, I think it's just more of an OOC thing. Staff has to build all that stuff, and merchants get like what? Over 20 crafting skills? If it wasn't capped at 1 per RL month then you could submit 20 something a month, but you'd be waiting a lot longer to get the actual items as staff struggled to climb out from under the back log.

Wug has already said in this thread that the amount of "lost" crafting recipes (ie the items are no longer even in game to be analized anymore) is vanishingly small. Meaning most stuff is in game to be found, analyzed, and reverse engineered so ... I'm not seeing where the problem is. There are no "lost crafting recipes of long ago".  

[redkank]

Is it vanishingly small because of the OOC databases circulating around that someone mentioned earlier from google? 
For an average player starting the game, it is very intimidating to learn the crafting professions.  I realize if a player has obtained a
searchable database by whatever means, they wouldn't need in game reference. Is building a data base really what you
want players doing?  Or would you rather have a searchable in game method to do the same thing?

[X-D]

I rather wonder what method Wug used to supposedly check this anyway.

I mean, the only real method would be to list every item that exists in the game world, then list every item in the items database, then subtract the first from the second, then check the remaining items and see if they are craftable.

Which would likely take some time.

But then one would have to go through every single item that is in game and check and see if they are accessable to players. I doubt very much if Wug did that.

After all, items on NPCs that are locked away in staff use areas do not count, items locked away in unused or even used templars quarters, nobles estates etc etc etc also do not count.

My bet is, if you took all these factors into account and actually put in the many hours to check you would find that fully half the possible crafts do not exist in a manner that a player is likely to ever be able to assess it.

Hell, if I check my own personal crafts list I run into 30% not seen by me in at least 2 years in just the first page.

If I bothered to check older stuff my bet is that would just increase. Hell, I have lists of ordered items, most of which still exist in the data base that many clan staffers do not know exist and it often takes weeks for me to get them ordered simply because it takes that long to convince anybody there is such a thing.

Then there is bugged crafts, some of which I have bugged in the last couple years, they are not in game simply because something in the craft itself is bugged.

[Nyr]

You can analyze an item that is a finished product to find out what went into making it.  That's presently all that you can do codedly.  We've discussed this kind of expansion of crafting (players have, too), but it is not in the works right now.  Hopefully it'll be reviewed and implemented at some point in the future.

Locking this thread because it has devolved once again into the following:

Some of you folks front on the GDB like the game has your balls (or other reproductive organs) in a vice, when in reality, you can do x or y thing to alleviate whatever minor frustration you are discussing at present.  Please keep some perspective when discussing issues on the GDB.

...and that's not an environment for constructive and honest discussion of an idea.