Crossbow Realism Rehash?

[FantasyWriter]

IMO, crossbows should give a bonus to their chance to hit at lower skill_archery levels then slowly level off with bows as the skill climbs (balanced by them being clunkier, slower, and having a shorter range).
The RL benefit of crossbows lies in the ability to use them with moderate efficiency with much less training than a longbow.

The Longbow Vs The Crossbow

[Gunnerblaster]

I like the idea of crossbows but I virtually see no benefit to using one, other than the fact that it can be pre-loaded.

If there was some sort of coded advantage to using a crossbow, early on, instead of a bow - I'd be down for actually making use of a crossbow then eventually getting a longbow down the road.

[Blur]

 Good idea

[Dresan]

I've suggested it before that crossbows give a bonus to shooting for those that don't have the archery skill, seeing as realistically that was the purpose of them on the battlefield. Required little to no training and you still had a crew of semi-capable archers that could be plenty deadly.

Might see a rise on the use of crossbows if that was the case.

A talented person with a longbow would always be more deadly than someone with a crossbow.

MMMm. I don't know,  i think they should have different bonus and flavor not so much this. Now i've never played with crossbows that much before because they are a really clunky weapon so i might be speaking out of my ass but:

I think the biggest difference between crossbows and regular bows that i would like to see is that with bows where the delays come in. The delay when shooting a bow should stay as is now, when you are shooting them basically but with crossbows the delay should be placed when you are loading them which would make shooting them instant. However since you are shooting them instantly even if you are a master archer and despite the short range there would still be a lot less accuracy, the chance of getting those head and neck shots would be significantly lower however body, arm and leg shots should be more common then just missing . In in exchange for some accuracy the crossbow would get a slight bonus to damage and a greater bonus to knocking down the target then bows currently have, this last bonus would be dependent on archery skill.

This would actually give crossbows a specific purpose alongside bows. Bows would be for range and accuracy and potentially more damage with head and neck shots. Crossbows would be used for getting that one shot off in an attempt to knock your opponent off a mount or just off their feet. This would make crossbows more effective when moving in and charging someone, or trying to finish some off as they flee.

Crossbows should of course then become restricted weaponry given their overall function.

I should add that if the crossbow guy in the video had 20 crossbows loaded and ready to fire, he might have won. Again with my idea you would hit more often, just not to critical areas as often. So a newbie archer might find more benefit trying to use a crossbow and knock a tregil down to its feet before moving in for the kill then to try to snipe it dead with a bow. Again, you would have a viable choice, do you want to be able to insta shoot something and have a better chance of knocking something down while doing some damage at short range, then use crossbow. Do you want to snipe something dead in two shots at three leagues range,  then bow is your answer.  

[jhunter]

I definitely agree that crossbows need to display a little more of the realistic benefits to using them to balance them out and make them more of a viable option vs. bows. Bows should have their coded benefits over crossbows, which they do but crossbows are missing their realistic benefits vs bows it seems to me.

[Kismetic]

Yeah, you're right.  Whoops!  Edit your quote.

[FantasyWriter]

What bugs me is that, to my knowledge, assassins can't use crossbows.  Say what?  Maybe I'm wrong, though.

Please do not discuss who gets or does not get what skill on the GDB, but for the record, there is more than one subguild that offers archery, so anyone can have it.

[hyzhenhok]

Ideally, I think, we'd see something like this:

• Crossbows should grant an accuracy/archery skill bonus that makes lower-skilled archers able to hit more reliably, but it outweighed by bonus damage for higher skilled archers
• Crossbow loading should check strength (if it doesn't already). If your strength isn't high enough, you simply cannot load the crossbow.
  
• For crossbows and bows that have similar draw strength requirement, the bows should deal significantly more damage (if you're going for realism, the cited video above says triple)
• Even crappy crossbows should still be expensive (as they generally already are) so these changes don't make things too easy. A crossbow should be an expensive investment, but things should change so that it's a worthwhile one.

Really, thinking about this makes me excited. I think ranged combat is one of the things that could use an overhaul (after the many years of awesome changes to tons of other things). The important thing is to make low-skilled archers able to actually use their archery skill for stuff as they practice, rather than grinding with slings until they hit Journeyman or Advanced, without making archery too OP.

[Dresan]

In terms of inexpensive investments we have slings. The times we really need a bow are for things that would kill us if we got in range where we could use a crossbow.

Also crossbows already have a stronger pull that requires less strength to pull so that translates to a slight bit more damage, and lets not forget you can still pull bows that are above your strength in exchange for stamina cost anyways.

If crossbows were just made into an intermediate weapon i doubt we would see them at all as well i would still invest in a good bow.  At the end the potential range of bows still beats any bonuses a crossbow might to have unless that it the ability to shoot then instantly and potentially with one hand or from a small crossbow attached to a bracer. Then you would see them used more often. Again though it would be fun to them have them banned by city states, used only by criminals and licensed military organizations because of their potential deadliness even with such short range (bonus to knocking people down from mounts or just flat on to their feet).

[Riya OniSenshi]

Some of you need to actually use the crossbows in-game for a while.

[Dresan]

Some of you need to actually use the crossbows in-game for a while.

Feels too clunky and slow for me personally. There does seem to be a bit more damage but nothing worth the hassle and definitely nothing worth losing the range of the bows. If i remember correctly they are heavier too.

As I've said, i should probably do more experimenting especially with the smaller ones but yeah...dem bows be mighty popular.

[RogueGunslinger]

What people are asking for would be the throwing skill, basically.

[Delirium]

all I want is to be able to 'pull quiver' with a crossbow - just add an appropriate delay.

[roughneck]

With macros set, a crossbow is just as fast as a bow.

With speed being on par, or very  close, the only two disadvantages I have found is that a bow allows you to wield the arrow you shoot, which has saved my bacon more than once, and the expense and rarity of bolts over arrows.

I've always wished there was more bolt recipes, especially in the south where you see npc soldiers using them.

[Dresan]

What people are asking for would be the throwing skill, basically.

I'm not.


Throwing has its advantages beyond those that are similar to using bows. Just to mention a couple, you can fight with a throwing weapons,  after throwing a weapon your hand is free to wield another weapon, and lastly throwing weapons are retrievable. The biggest disadvantage is that you have have little range but there are a couple more advantages as to why someone would rather throw then use bow, not even mentioning poison or knock downs with bows also provide.

Bows have great range, and the damage is based on your agility. You wield an arrow and free your one hand after shooting it. Pull quiver makes life easier, making the skill quick and fluent. Some bows out there have some really cool advantages too.

With both bows and throwing, the delay comes before shooting. My idea would make crossbows different by having the delay be when loading (which should longer then aiming with bow) thus making shooting instant, you just won't be loading another shot that quick but you can walk around with a loaded crossbow. Unlike with throwing and archery, the crossbow less chance of hitting critical spots like the neck and head,but less chance to miss entirely. The damage and chance of knocking down would be based on your archery skill and the size of the crossbow with on average be greater then with bow in exchange for the short range. Really though the thing that would make them worth using was if i could shoot instantly with them.

[Spoon]

I've always wished there was more bolt recipes...

I think this would make crossbows more widely used, then it would be easier to tell if there's actually a problem with them (there's a lot of speculation in this thread that would be cleared up).

There's some awesome bolts in game that should be craft-able.

[roughneck]

There is zero speculation in my post. I played a ranger who used them a whole bunch. With macros I reloaded them just as fast as you can pull an arrow from a quiver, or very close. With the right crossbow I shot just as lethally as the vast majority of bows. My only reason for sticking with bows was arrows. It's nice to wield the arrow you're shooting and you can get a much greater variety of arrows much more easily than bolts.

Dresan's post has a bunch of misinformation about the throw and archery skills.

[Nyr]

There's some awesome bolts in game that should be craft-able.

Of the bolts that aren't craftable, they are definitely available for those that have access to them or know where to find/purchase them.

[Kismetic]

Also crossbows already have a stronger pull that requires less strength to pull so that translates to a slight bit more damage, and lets not forget you can still pull bows that are above your strength in exchange for stamina cost anyways.

If you watch the link Fantasy Writer provides, the guy states that to equal the longbow's strength, you would need triple the test weight, at around 350 lbs. or so.  The only crossbows capable, he says, is a goat's foot loaded (is that correct?) or a windlass.  Soo ...  Not really.

[FantasyWriter]

There's some awesome bolts in game that should be craft-able.

Of the bolts that aren't craftable, they are definitely available for those that have access to them or know where to find/purchase them.

I think this is more of a economics issue, being able to construct your own for less expense with characters/clans that have access to the raw materials.



As far as the discussion on range/attack strength, I think crossbows are fine as they are.  I've always seen/read crossbows being used against sapient creatures (usually by law enforcement, criminals, or defensive wall soldiers).  Mostly instances where the intimidation factor of a "loaded gun' pointed at your face at point-bank range is all you need to get the job done(with the exception of the wall defenders which, as mentioned before, is about getting more numbers of untrained archers into play).  I don't believe they were ever heavily used in hunting game or sniping from a distance.... leave that to the experienced bowmen.

[Nyr]

There's some awesome bolts in game that should be craft-able.

Of the bolts that aren't craftable, they are definitely available for those that have access to them or know where to find/purchase them.

I think this is more of a economics issue, being able to construct your own for less expense with characters/clans that have access to the raw materials.

Like I said, of the bolts that aren't craftable:  these are available.

I didn't say anything about the bolts that are craftable.  However, they do exist, there are more than a handful of them (unless you have big hands), and you can always mastercraft more recipes.

[Dresan]

Also crossbows already have a stronger pull that requires less strength to pull so that translates to a slight bit more damage, and lets not forget you can still pull bows that are above your strength in exchange for stamina cost anyways.

If you watch the link Fantasy Writer provides, the guy states that to equal the longbow's strength, you would need triple the test weight, at around 350 lbs. or so.  The only crossbows capable, he says, is a goat's foot loaded (is that correct?) or a windlass.  Soo ...  Not really.

That's nice. And true but we are talking about the game here that may or may not be coded differently.

  Crossbows on Zalanthas are a straightforward affair, amounting to a
wind-up version of a bow.  They are more compact than bows, require less
strength to utilize, and use bolts rather than arrows, due to the need for
a stronger shaft because of the stresses placed upon the projectile by
the string.  To wind a crossbow, the 'load' command is used.  Shooting a
crossbow is exactly the same, syntactically, as shooting a bow and arrow.
However, the crossbow must be in the inventory to be loaded or unloaded,
and must be equipped in the 'primary' hand to be shot, unlike regular bows.

Did you think crossbow's were coded short range with absolutely no benefit at all? It is just that to be the benefit they currently might have doesn't really justify the hassle to me at least. Now this may or not be true, but the help file does seem to suggest it and testing it out once upon a time did seem to confirm that.

There is zero speculation in my post. I played a ranger who used them a whole bunch. With macros I reloaded them just as fast as you can pull an arrow from a quiver, or very close. With the right crossbow I shot just as lethally as the vast majority of bows. My only reason for sticking with bows was arrows. It's nice to wield the arrow you're shooting and you can get a much greater variety of arrows much more easily than bolts.

Dresan's post has a bunch of misinformation about the throw and archery skills.

Well I'm also glad your post has zero speculation, or at least very close to it. Of the things i mention about throwing and archery, most of the things are found in the help-file and the rest are just common sense when you are performing the skills. Of the stuff I'm more vague about well you can find that out from using the skill or ignore it all together, i don't want the GDB police after me. I was thinking i should have been more vague actually. Again, the fact that you need to use a macros with crossbows to come 'very close' to using bows makes it almost not worth the hassle.

I've always been happy to admit I'm wrong but never to someone who seems to be talking more out of their ass then me.  

[Kismetic]

Well, sure.  You can also kill creatures three times your size with a bone sword in this game.  I understand it's a game, but FW's link about crossbows vs. bows is fairly informative.  You should watch it.

[Drayab]

FW's link was good. If you want to make crossbows realistic, they should have the same range/stopping power as a longbow, should be more accurate than bows at low levels of skill, should load 3x slower, should be heavier, and they should (I think) be more expensive.

An arbalest can easily shoot as far as a longbow, but it requires a windlass to load and the prow is made of steel, necessary to provide the enormous force to match the longbow's range despite the crossbow's relative inefficient design (short draw length).

[Gunnerblaster]

I still remember, reading a long time ago, of someone's attempt to use a crossbow as a hold-up weapon.

Goes into the tavern with the crossbow loaded and says no one do anything dumb.

First thing that happens?

Someone gets up, whips out both weapons and promptly attacks the guy.

To put it pointedly, not even my 1 hour merchant is going to be afraid of someone with a crossbow.