Crossbow Realism Rehash?

[FantasyWriter]

IMO, crossbows should give a bonus to their chance to hit at lower skill_archery levels then slowly level off with bows as the skill climbs (balanced by them being clunkier, slower, and having a shorter range).
The RL benefit of crossbows lies in the ability to use them with moderate efficiency with much less training than a longbow.

The Longbow Vs The Crossbow

[Gunnerblaster]

I like the idea of crossbows but I virtually see no benefit to using one, other than the fact that it can be pre-loaded.

If there was some sort of coded advantage to using a crossbow, early on, instead of a bow - I'd be down for actually making use of a crossbow then eventually getting a longbow down the road.

[Blur]

 Good idea

[Dresan]

I've suggested it before that crossbows give a bonus to shooting for those that don't have the archery skill, seeing as realistically that was the purpose of them on the battlefield. Required little to no training and you still had a crew of semi-capable archers that could be plenty deadly.

Might see a rise on the use of crossbows if that was the case.

A talented person with a longbow would always be more deadly than someone with a crossbow.

MMMm. I don't know,  i think they should have different bonus and flavor not so much this. Now i've never played with crossbows that much before because they are a really clunky weapon so i might be speaking out of my ass but:

I think the biggest difference between crossbows and regular bows that i would like to see is that with bows where the delays come in. The delay when shooting a bow should stay as is now, when you are shooting them basically but with crossbows the delay should be placed when you are loading them which would make shooting them instant. However since you are shooting them instantly even if you are a master archer and despite the short range there would still be a lot less accuracy, the chance of getting those head and neck shots would be significantly lower however body, arm and leg shots should be more common then just missing . In in exchange for some accuracy the crossbow would get a slight bonus to damage and a greater bonus to knocking down the target then bows currently have, this last bonus would be dependent on archery skill.

This would actually give crossbows a specific purpose alongside bows. Bows would be for range and accuracy and potentially more damage with head and neck shots. Crossbows would be used for getting that one shot off in an attempt to knock your opponent off a mount or just off their feet. This would make crossbows more effective when moving in and charging someone, or trying to finish some off as they flee.

Crossbows should of course then become restricted weaponry given their overall function.

I should add that if the crossbow guy in the video had 20 crossbows loaded and ready to fire, he might have won. Again with my idea you would hit more often, just not to critical areas as often. So a newbie archer might find more benefit trying to use a crossbow and knock a tregil down to its feet before moving in for the kill then to try to snipe it dead with a bow. Again, you would have a viable choice, do you want to be able to insta shoot something and have a better chance of knocking something down while doing some damage at short range, then use crossbow. Do you want to snipe something dead in two shots at three leagues range,  then bow is your answer.  

[jhunter]

I definitely agree that crossbows need to display a little more of the realistic benefits to using them to balance them out and make them more of a viable option vs. bows. Bows should have their coded benefits over crossbows, which they do but crossbows are missing their realistic benefits vs bows it seems to me.

[Kismetic]

Yeah, you're right.  Whoops!  Edit your quote.

[FantasyWriter]

What bugs me is that, to my knowledge, assassins can't use crossbows.  Say what?  Maybe I'm wrong, though.

Please do not discuss who gets or does not get what skill on the GDB, but for the record, there is more than one subguild that offers archery, so anyone can have it.

[hyzhenhok]

Ideally, I think, we'd see something like this:

• Crossbows should grant an accuracy/archery skill bonus that makes lower-skilled archers able to hit more reliably, but it outweighed by bonus damage for higher skilled archers
• Crossbow loading should check strength (if it doesn't already). If your strength isn't high enough, you simply cannot load the crossbow.
  
• For crossbows and bows that have similar draw strength requirement, the bows should deal significantly more damage (if you're going for realism, the cited video above says triple)
• Even crappy crossbows should still be expensive (as they generally already are) so these changes don't make things too easy. A crossbow should be an expensive investment, but things should change so that it's a worthwhile one.

Really, thinking about this makes me excited. I think ranged combat is one of the things that could use an overhaul (after the many years of awesome changes to tons of other things). The important thing is to make low-skilled archers able to actually use their archery skill for stuff as they practice, rather than grinding with slings until they hit Journeyman or Advanced, without making archery too OP.

[Dresan]

In terms of inexpensive investments we have slings. The times we really need a bow are for things that would kill us if we got in range where we could use a crossbow.

Also crossbows already have a stronger pull that requires less strength to pull so that translates to a slight bit more damage, and lets not forget you can still pull bows that are above your strength in exchange for stamina cost anyways.

If crossbows were just made into an intermediate weapon i doubt we would see them at all as well i would still invest in a good bow.  At the end the potential range of bows still beats any bonuses a crossbow might to have unless that it the ability to shoot then instantly and potentially with one hand or from a small crossbow attached to a bracer. Then you would see them used more often. Again though it would be fun to them have them banned by city states, used only by criminals and licensed military organizations because of their potential deadliness even with such short range (bonus to knocking people down from mounts or just flat on to their feet).

[Riya OniSenshi]

Some of you need to actually use the crossbows in-game for a while.

[Dresan]

Some of you need to actually use the crossbows in-game for a while.

Feels too clunky and slow for me personally. There does seem to be a bit more damage but nothing worth the hassle and definitely nothing worth losing the range of the bows. If i remember correctly they are heavier too.

As I've said, i should probably do more experimenting especially with the smaller ones but yeah...dem bows be mighty popular.

[RogueGunslinger]

What people are asking for would be the throwing skill, basically.

[Delirium]

all I want is to be able to 'pull quiver' with a crossbow - just add an appropriate delay.

[roughneck]

With macros set, a crossbow is just as fast as a bow.

With speed being on par, or very  close, the only two disadvantages I have found is that a bow allows you to wield the arrow you shoot, which has saved my bacon more than once, and the expense and rarity of bolts over arrows.

I've always wished there was more bolt recipes, especially in the south where you see npc soldiers using them.

[Dresan]

What people are asking for would be the throwing skill, basically.

I'm not.


Throwing has its advantages beyond those that are similar to using bows. Just to mention a couple, you can fight with a throwing weapons,  after throwing a weapon your hand is free to wield another weapon, and lastly throwing weapons are retrievable. The biggest disadvantage is that you have have little range but there are a couple more advantages as to why someone would rather throw then use bow, not even mentioning poison or knock downs with bows also provide.

Bows have great range, and the damage is based on your agility. You wield an arrow and free your one hand after shooting it. Pull quiver makes life easier, making the skill quick and fluent. Some bows out there have some really cool advantages too.

With both bows and throwing, the delay comes before shooting. My idea would make crossbows different by having the delay be when loading (which should longer then aiming with bow) thus making shooting instant, you just won't be loading another shot that quick but you can walk around with a loaded crossbow. Unlike with throwing and archery, the crossbow less chance of hitting critical spots like the neck and head,but less chance to miss entirely. The damage and chance of knocking down would be based on your archery skill and the size of the crossbow with on average be greater then with bow in exchange for the short range. Really though the thing that would make them worth using was if i could shoot instantly with them.

[Spoon]

I've always wished there was more bolt recipes...

I think this would make crossbows more widely used, then it would be easier to tell if there's actually a problem with them (there's a lot of speculation in this thread that would be cleared up).

There's some awesome bolts in game that should be craft-able.

[roughneck]

There is zero speculation in my post. I played a ranger who used them a whole bunch. With macros I reloaded them just as fast as you can pull an arrow from a quiver, or very close. With the right crossbow I shot just as lethally as the vast majority of bows. My only reason for sticking with bows was arrows. It's nice to wield the arrow you're shooting and you can get a much greater variety of arrows much more easily than bolts.

Dresan's post has a bunch of misinformation about the throw and archery skills.

[Nyr]

There's some awesome bolts in game that should be craft-able.

Of the bolts that aren't craftable, they are definitely available for those that have access to them or know where to find/purchase them.

[Kismetic]

Also crossbows already have a stronger pull that requires less strength to pull so that translates to a slight bit more damage, and lets not forget you can still pull bows that are above your strength in exchange for stamina cost anyways.

If you watch the link Fantasy Writer provides, the guy states that to equal the longbow's strength, you would need triple the test weight, at around 350 lbs. or so.  The only crossbows capable, he says, is a goat's foot loaded (is that correct?) or a windlass.  Soo ...  Not really.

[FantasyWriter]

There's some awesome bolts in game that should be craft-able.

Of the bolts that aren't craftable, they are definitely available for those that have access to them or know where to find/purchase them.

I think this is more of a economics issue, being able to construct your own for less expense with characters/clans that have access to the raw materials.



As far as the discussion on range/attack strength, I think crossbows are fine as they are.  I've always seen/read crossbows being used against sapient creatures (usually by law enforcement, criminals, or defensive wall soldiers).  Mostly instances where the intimidation factor of a "loaded gun' pointed at your face at point-bank range is all you need to get the job done(with the exception of the wall defenders which, as mentioned before, is about getting more numbers of untrained archers into play).  I don't believe they were ever heavily used in hunting game or sniping from a distance.... leave that to the experienced bowmen.

[Nyr]

There's some awesome bolts in game that should be craft-able.

Of the bolts that aren't craftable, they are definitely available for those that have access to them or know where to find/purchase them.

I think this is more of a economics issue, being able to construct your own for less expense with characters/clans that have access to the raw materials.

Like I said, of the bolts that aren't craftable:  these are available.

I didn't say anything about the bolts that are craftable.  However, they do exist, there are more than a handful of them (unless you have big hands), and you can always mastercraft more recipes.

[Dresan]

Also crossbows already have a stronger pull that requires less strength to pull so that translates to a slight bit more damage, and lets not forget you can still pull bows that are above your strength in exchange for stamina cost anyways.

If you watch the link Fantasy Writer provides, the guy states that to equal the longbow's strength, you would need triple the test weight, at around 350 lbs. or so.  The only crossbows capable, he says, is a goat's foot loaded (is that correct?) or a windlass.  Soo ...  Not really.

That's nice. And true but we are talking about the game here that may or may not be coded differently.

  Crossbows on Zalanthas are a straightforward affair, amounting to a
wind-up version of a bow.  They are more compact than bows, require less
strength to utilize, and use bolts rather than arrows, due to the need for
a stronger shaft because of the stresses placed upon the projectile by
the string.  To wind a crossbow, the 'load' command is used.  Shooting a
crossbow is exactly the same, syntactically, as shooting a bow and arrow.
However, the crossbow must be in the inventory to be loaded or unloaded,
and must be equipped in the 'primary' hand to be shot, unlike regular bows.

Did you think crossbow's were coded short range with absolutely no benefit at all? It is just that to be the benefit they currently might have doesn't really justify the hassle to me at least. Now this may or not be true, but the help file does seem to suggest it and testing it out once upon a time did seem to confirm that.

There is zero speculation in my post. I played a ranger who used them a whole bunch. With macros I reloaded them just as fast as you can pull an arrow from a quiver, or very close. With the right crossbow I shot just as lethally as the vast majority of bows. My only reason for sticking with bows was arrows. It's nice to wield the arrow you're shooting and you can get a much greater variety of arrows much more easily than bolts.

Dresan's post has a bunch of misinformation about the throw and archery skills.

Well I'm also glad your post has zero speculation, or at least very close to it. Of the things i mention about throwing and archery, most of the things are found in the help-file and the rest are just common sense when you are performing the skills. Of the stuff I'm more vague about well you can find that out from using the skill or ignore it all together, i don't want the GDB police after me. I was thinking i should have been more vague actually. Again, the fact that you need to use a macros with crossbows to come 'very close' to using bows makes it almost not worth the hassle.

I've always been happy to admit I'm wrong but never to someone who seems to be talking more out of their ass then me.  

[Kismetic]

Well, sure.  You can also kill creatures three times your size with a bone sword in this game.  I understand it's a game, but FW's link about crossbows vs. bows is fairly informative.  You should watch it.

[Drayab]

FW's link was good. If you want to make crossbows realistic, they should have the same range/stopping power as a longbow, should be more accurate than bows at low levels of skill, should load 3x slower, should be heavier, and they should (I think) be more expensive.

An arbalest can easily shoot as far as a longbow, but it requires a windlass to load and the prow is made of steel, necessary to provide the enormous force to match the longbow's range despite the crossbow's relative inefficient design (short draw length).

[Gunnerblaster]

I still remember, reading a long time ago, of someone's attempt to use a crossbow as a hold-up weapon.

Goes into the tavern with the crossbow loaded and says no one do anything dumb.

First thing that happens?

Someone gets up, whips out both weapons and promptly attacks the guy.

To put it pointedly, not even my 1 hour merchant is going to be afraid of someone with a crossbow.

[Morrolan]

To put it pointedly, not even my 1 hour merchant is going to be afraid of someone with a crossbow.

If you're afraid of someone with a crossbow, that means you saw them.

They have already made the first mistake.

[Malken]

My last merchant made it a career goal to just make and sell the best crossbows ever, I think he was walking around with 5-6 loaded crossbows hanging all over him at all times, too

He never managed to sell -1- crossbow, though ;p

[hyzhenhok]

Also crossbows already have a stronger pull that requires less strength to pull so that translates to a slight bit more damage, and lets not forget you can still pull bows that are above your strength in exchange for stamina cost anyways.

If you watch the link Fantasy Writer provides, the guy states that to equal the longbow's strength, you would need triple the test weight, at around 350 lbs. or so.  The only crossbows capable, he says, is a goat's foot loaded (is that correct?) or a windlass.  Soo ...  Not really.

That's nice. And true but we are talking about the game here that may or may not be coded differently.

And we are talking about potential changes to that game. It just so happens that the idea of making crossbows lower power but higher accuracy than bows is the happy intersection of increased realism and various gameplay/playability benefits.

Re: crossbows with macros being as fast as bows, that's something that should probably change. A handy nerf to go alongside the buffs we are suggesting for crossbows.

[Bacon]

It should be:

Range Advantage: Bow
Max Damage Advantage: Bow


Accuracy Advantage: Crossbow
Minimum Damage Advantage: Crossbow


At least that's what I think. Give a crossbow higher minimum damage, a cap on max damage, and a boost to hit with it (maybe enough that even those without the archery skill have a chance to hit with it though I'm not entirely sure about that). Bows have much longer range and a higher potential maximum damage. Even though someone stated otherwise, my perception is also that there needs to be more craftable bolts for those with fletchery. Maybe make bolts much cheaper than arrows too, though the average crossbow would be more expensive than the average bow.

[Kismetic]

No, no, you've got it all wrong.  The arrow does the damage, the bow is just a 1d4 bludgeoning tool.

[Bacon]

You know what I mean. Lol.

[roughneck]

I always wonder about the reliability of a trigger mechanism made without metal.  Small pieces made out of bone or wood might snap under the tension put on them by the crossbow's string, at least it seems to me.

Armageddon technology is a funny mix of medieval and stone age.  Crossbows seem to tip the balance towards medieval.

I wish we could trade crossbows for atlatl, I think that fits way better.  I believe staff have determined the opposite in the past, however.

[armandhammer]

Atlatl? Why, that would get mepeople started talking about throwing farther than one room! That's just absurd, isn't it?

Wait, would atlatl use fall under 'throw' or 'archery'? I don't even know.

[Maso]

Atlatl? Why, that would get mepeople started talking about throwing farther than one room! That's just absurd, isn't it?

Wait, would atlatl use fall under 'throw' or 'archery'? I don't even know.

Totally 'throw'

[jstorrie]

I've been thinking about this all week. I have an alternative I'd like to suggest.

I don't think tinkering with to-hit and damage values for realism's sake is necessary, given that we already suspend our disbelief about 3-league bows. Subtle changes won't differentiate crossbows enough to encourage their use anyway. Instead I propose we make crossbows fundamentally different, in three ways:

1. Allow hand crossbows to be sheathed/drawn on belts. This would make them VERY convenient as quick little pew-pew guns. You could pre-load with a poisoned bolt and have it as a cool backup weapon.

2. Set all heavy crossbows as 2h bludgeoning weapons with modest damage, so you could bash people with the stock. This would make crossbows much more reasonable as 'infantry' weapons. You could be marching with your crossbow out without that being such a liability. This would make crossbows more of an 'all-around' or 'shock trooper' weapon. The militias and mercenaries would use them more while in groups, etc.

3. Set all longbows and heavy crossbows to be un-fireable while mounted. This would give shortbows and light crossbows a niche as well, rather than them just being chump weapons. Longbows from horseback never made any sense anyway.

This would give you three 'classes' of bow basically - hand, light, and heavy - in addition to slings and blow darts.

[jstorrie]

If bows (not crossbows) ARE currently coded as bludgeoning weapons too, I think that ability should be stripped from them. Crossbows only.

[Bacon]

There are longbows that are shot from horseback in RL.

[jstorrie]

While it is theoretically possible to shoot a longbow while mounted, I think it's significant that basically no armed forces in human history did this. Mounted riders in all human cultures historically used asymmetric or recurve bows, not longbows.

[Armaddict]

    The yumi (longbow), reflected in the art of kyūjutsu (lit. the skill of the bow) was a major weapon of the Japanese military. Its usage declined with the introduction of the tanegashima (Japanese matchlock) during the Sengoku period, but the skill was still practiced at least for sport.[34] The yumi, an asymmetric composite bow made from bamboo, wood, rattan and leather, had an effective range of 50 meters (about 164 feet) or 100 meters (328 feet) if accuracy was not an issue. On foot, it was usually used behind a tate (手盾), a large, mobile wooden shield, but the yumi could also be used from horseback because of its asymmetric shape. The practice of shooting from horseback became a Shinto ceremony known as yabusame (流鏑馬).[35]

A longbow.  But a modified one.

[jstorrie]

Asymmetric bows are generally not considered 'longbows' when we're talking actual weapon classification - that translation is imprecise.

The Zalanthan equivalent would probably be one of the various composite warbows.

[FantasyWriter]

1. Allow hand crossbows to be sheathed/drawn on belts. This would make them VERY convenient as quick little pew-pew guns. You could pre-load with a poisoned bolt and have it as a cool backup weapon.

2. Set all heavy crossbows as 2h bludgeoning weapons with modest damage, so you could bash people with the stock. This would make crossbows much more reasonable as 'infantry' weapons. You could be marching with your crossbow out without that being such a liability. This would make crossbows more of an 'all-around' or 'shock trooper' weapon. The militias and mercenaries would use them more while in groups, etc.

Those are two of the coolest ideas in this thread so far.

[Armaddict]

That is it's classification, is a longbow.  If you want to argue this moot point, you can also notice that not all 'longbows' in game, when described, actually fully fit the real world classification of 'longbows'. (Edit:  This really is a moot point, my point is just that modifications are common, and sometimes the classification is a bit more tricky, and so this particular code could be simple, or could be made very complex, depending on the vision of the coder.  Really not my main concern since I'm mostly in agreement, I'm just nitpicky.)

Regardless, I agree with most of your points, though I'd say a heavy crossbow, while it should be bludgeoning, should come with hefty defensive penalties.  You're able to defend yourself, but I don't want a vanguard of crossbowmen beating people down then shooting bolts into their back.  Which is how this would be with a few 20+ day warriors with crossbows.  Dat parry too stronk.

I've wanted crossbows to be more used for a loooong time.  Along with spears.  Heh.

[jstorrie]

Yeah, I envisioned light crossbows as being very awkward and very low-damage bludgeoning weapons, and heavy crossbows as being moderately awkward and comparable in damage to a one-handed club or mace, with both being two-handed weapons.

The way I was thinking when I was mulling this over at work the other day - I was going to put it in a submission via request tool, but I'm lazy, so maybe you guys can help 'check my work' before I do so - is that in order to encourage their use, each type of weapon should have a niche. I wanted to fit them all in a nice table but I haven't been able to massage the concept that way yet. But here's sort of where I'm at. I list 'premium options' as qualities that could be given to either expensive models, or mastercrafts - mastercrafts might even get more than one of the bonuses?

bows in general
Pros: higher rate of fire (thanks to not needing to be loaded), generally greater range
Cons: vulnerability to melee

light bows (ie, shortbows): generally range 1 (next-room-over)
Pros: cheap, can be used mounted
Cons: low damage
Premium options (ie, composite shortbows, medium/flatbows, recurve shortbows, or rare materials): range 2, and/or higher damage

heavy bows (ie, longbows): generally range 2
Pros: cheapest range 2 option
Cons: not usable mounted
Premium options (ie, composite/recurve/asymmetric designs, or rare materials): range 3, and/or higher damage, and/or usable mounted

crossbows in general (except hand-crossbows)
Pros: can be used as impromptu melee weapons; can be pre-loaded
Cons: lower rate-of-fire (due to loading)

light crossbows: generally range 1
Pros: cheaper and lighter than heavy crossbows, maybe usable mounted?
Cons: lower melee damage than heavy crossbows, lower range than heavy crossbows, more likely to break in melee
Premium options: range 2, and/or higher melee damage or lower melee penalty (spike-ended stocks or whatever)

heavy crossbows: generally range 2
Pros: best for bashin', high damage
Cons: probably not usable mounted? high cost, low rate of fire
Premium options: big damage shots, melee enhancements (bayonets or spikes or what-have-you - what's more Zalanthan than a bow with tusks?); I don't think range 3 is appropriate as I think that should be specific to premium longbows/heavy bows

miscellaneous archery weapons
Pros: straight up style, unique abilities
Cons: narrow utility, short range, lower rate of fire (must be loaded)

blowguns: range 0 (same-room)
Pros: stealthy, good for delivering poison, easily concealable, cheap
Cons: super short range, super low damage, might actually be governed by the throwing skill for all I know
Premium options: maybe none, I don't know how much you can improve on 'tube that you blow in'

light slings (ie, slingshots): range 0 (same-room)
Pros: ultra cheap, ammo is free, bludgeoning damage
Cons: ammo is heavy, very short range, very low damage
Premium options: range 1

heavy slings, (ie, actual slings): range 1
Pros: as above
Cons: ammo is heavy
Premium options: range 2

hand crossbows: range 0 (same-room)
Pros: one-handed (so you can have an off-hand weapon for melee), concealable, can be sheathed/drawn from belts, can be pre-loaded
Cons: low damage, very expensive, low range
Premium options: range 1, or minor melee ability (come on, I know someone will mastercraft one with a reinforced grip so we can pistol-whip people)

I will say straight up that my suggestions here have much more to do with playability and with allowing us to do Cool Shit than with realism. But I think that's a good trade to make. But in general I think it would be cool to push bows as the pure long-range weapons, crossbows as the more medium/versatile weapons, and then to have some consistency in what pros and cons are granted to the 'light' and 'heavy' types of each, as well as to the 'cheap' and 'expensive' types of those.

While I'm on the subject, I think that 'pull quiver' should work with crossbows such that it will draw a bolt and load it (or even draw a bullet/stone and load a sling/slingshot!) Anyone who uses crossbows already just scripts or stacks those commands anyway. Automate it and then adjust the delay on loading, I say.

If you guys have suggestions please share them with me and I will adjust my eventual idea submission accordingly! I'm shying away from damage/to-hit ratios since I worry that going in and adjusting all the damage and to-hit numbers of all the ranged weapons in the database might take an unreasonable amount of staff time.

[Qzzrbl]

Another thing to consider (if we're drawing real-world parallels) is that mounted archery was typically from horseback-- and it never really gained popularity until stirrups did. I'm not saying that it'd be impossible to fire accurately from the back of a dinosaur, but maybe it can be taken into consideration that some mounts are better suited than others to archer from with big honkin' longbows.

[jstorrie]

I'm not sure how we'd handle that, codedly. It is worth noting that we already suspend our disbelief re: charge and trample in the absence of stirrups. I mean, we ride around on dinosaurs and shit. But in general I think we should just say you just can't use a big honking longbow while mounted, and if you want to fire a big bow from atop your mount you need an expensive and/or mastercrafted composite/recurve bow or equivalent.

[RogueGunslinger]

I love all of that jstorrie. Yes please.

[Maso]

I always assumed larger beasts were ridden with big mounted seat type saddles...more like you have on elephants than horses. And then for slimmer animals, like erdlus perhaps, who says we don't have stirrups? I might have even seen them in game.

Anyway, you're on a big mounted harnessed seat type thing on top of an inix...you can probably stand up on the saddle to shoot a longbow tbh...considering the size of them.

[Qzzrbl]

I always assumed larger beasts were ridden with big mounted seat type saddles...more like you have on elephants than horses. And then for slimmer animals, like erdlus perhaps, who says we don't have stirrups? I might have even seen them in game.

Anyway, you're on a big mounted harnessed seat type thing on top of an inix...you can probably stand up on the saddle to shoot a longbow tbh...considering the size of them.

Ever watch someoe ride an elephant with one of those? Shit wobbles -so much-    x-x;;

[Maso]

I have ridden elephants...on those a few times...and also on the necks...also camels and horses....horses are probably the least even, elephants are slowest and easier to slide into rhythm with. Plus...people stop to shoot right?

Also:



That dude has stirrups.

[Bacon]

I was going to say, I'm pretty sure I've seen saddle items in game with stirrups and mounts with saddles included in the descriptions that also have stirrups.

[CravenMadness]

why are people talking about using crossbows, or any bows, as weapons?  Wouldn't that stuff just ... shatter.. the first time you smacked some big chitin plated beasty, or shell-plated raider?

As far as the whole crossbow discussion...

Differences were handled pretty simply on another mud I used to play.

Crossbows: Two 'room' max range, with accuracy/damage penalties the further away the target.  Same room as the target got bonus to hit and damage.

'Bows' : three 'room' max range with accuracy/damage bonuses the further away the target.  Same room as the target received negatives to hit/damage.

(I'm sure I'm simplifying the actual code behind it all, but it's not hard to see the logic behind it.)

The speed gap between loading a bow, and loading a crossbow here in this game is -ridiculous-.  And for those of us who opt not to use macros, or just don't know how, that speed is a major deciding factor when your survival depends on either getting many shots off quickly, or being able to move around your target/sneak/hide and combat your opponent.

[Clearsighted]

They should put crossbows back to when they were hugely lethal at point blank range. Now they're like wiffle balls :/

An appropriate compensation is to double or triple the load time.

Think about it...a world where you can confidently use that bitching forearm-mounted handbow!

[AdamBlue]

Any crossbow at close range is probably going to be incredibly scary and lethal. Considering most characters in Zalanthias can have a massive chunk of flesh torn out of them and be -mostly- okay due to how redonkulously tough they are. But if you press a crossbow up against someone's chest, there are one of three possible reactions.

1. They roleplay it out realisticly.

2. They attack you because the chance of them successfully hitting mid-combat is silly- As in, being a badass and sidestepping it/ smacking it down or away.

3. You shoot them and hit. It will either bounce off their armor, or do minor damage, or score a wicked painful throat or head shot which would kill a lesser character, and stagger a stronger one.

I feel like there should be an option unavailable  for bows but available for crossbows, where you can 'press crossbow <person> <bodypart>. This would work a bit like subdue, agility (with a bonus if you have high flee or archery- Afterall, you know how to just smack it out of the way if you know where it fires out of) for the attackee and archery for the attacker. On failure, they fire the bow and try to hit them anyway as per normal. On success, they press the bow against the bodypart they enter a standstill- They can hit it for critical damage, as in the backstab of archery, 'release' them as would they would do with subdue, or the person can 'flee' to try and shove the crossbow away. There would be no contest available for subdued/unconcious/imprisoned/nosave characters, allowing a team of a half-giant and an elf to subdue a man, and have one of the other place it against the other person's head and give them money. Of course, this doesn't stop the person from trying to flee the half-giant AND the crossbowman. And, be careful! If you're holding someone, there's a chance for misfire and it'll nail you too!

Of course, if you want to aim somewhere else, this gives good chance for proper roleplay. If you want to pretend to kill someone,  have them wear incredibly heavy chest armor and close their cloak, then fire into that. They'll fall back and start roleplaying death, thus perhaps fooling the people attending. Got a husband who's abusive? Tie him down and hold a reinforced crossbow to his crotch. Suddenly, he's a very nice husband in case he doesn't want to be a man anymore! Want to nail a fucker to the wall? Put your crossbow up against his hand and pin him down.

The only reason this wouldn't work for bows?

Well, bows are generally used for farther distance- Unlike crossbows, if you fire one point blank, the string won't fire the arrow- It'll simply just lodge against the person's chest before firing, and if they're wearing armor, releasing the arrow will do nothing more then possibly break the string and the arrow.