Changing the World

[Is Friday]

I dunno, I've been to Afghanistan. That seems like a pretty harsh location with limited resources. Motherfuckers have been fighting over them hills for centuries. I don't think your contrary "example" to Earth is warranted.

The "tangibility" or reasoning for wars/etc. seem more based on the fact that conflict should be interesting to us as players rather than whether or not people are smart enough to avoid extinction by fighting themselves into obscurity.

[Cutthroat]

I didn't say that resources are the only appropriate example of cause for war in Zalanthas. Just that it's probably easier to start a war if there's something, anything at all, to gain through winning, instead of making wars focused on the other side losing something. The only things I took into account in forming that opinion are Zalanthans' desire for survival and past history. I think that premise stands alone without comparisons to RL history, which another poster brought up and I tried my best to compare my premise to.

The "tangibility" or reasoning for wars/etc. seem more based on the fact that conflict should be interesting to us as players rather than whether or not people are smart enough to avoid extinction by fighting themselves into obscurity.

I agree, but again, even if PCs don't fulfill that latter condition, there are senior nobles, high ranked templars, and Sorcerer-Kings (NPCs and vNPCs) that seem to tend toward lasting as long as possible in a position of power. People that the PC has to push up against, and potentially upset their comfortable position, in order to do something.

[Is Friday]

IMO: With slavery as a viable resource, you can justify just about any conflict. Isn't most of Allanak's population slaves? Also: Aren't Borsail/Winrothol the more powerful/influential Houses in the two city-states?

[musashi]

The trick to changing the world can be summed up as follows: strength in numbers.

Look you are never going to be powerful enough to beat up Tektolnes and tear down Allanak by yourself. It would mean you're a being of Demi-God like proportions. You can't play a Demi-God.

But if you manage to convince you know ... the entire player base and all of their characters are supporting yours in making the push ... who knows. Staff will have to at least take account of the plot and have the world react accordingly if a vast majority of the characters in game are pushing in that direction. They will more than likely be happy to. Granted ... this may well result in another visit by the Dragon ala the dwarven rebellion of yore but hey ... it will be a hell of a fireworks show. You WILL make it into the history docs, and you will have had a massive effect on the game world; win or lose.

While your statement is completely true, IMO. Staff is generally quick to say, "Hey, you're hogging the player base (and rightfully so in most ways). Stop hiring/recruiting/amassing.

It ends up being a catch 22:
The more people you have, the more power you have... you can't have too many PCs, because it offsets the balance of power... you can't use NPCs vNPCs, that's what PCs are for.

I wasn't talking about minions here when I said get others to support you. I meant it in more of a political sense. No you can not skill train or hire your way to geopolitical change in Armageddon due to OOC restrictions on the game. But if you can draw enough people into your plot line you'll be able to get it up and off the ground. No promises it'll turn out the way you want it but hey, that's life!

And don't take bathroom breaks in the middle of critical moments 

[Kismetic]

Hey, never been to Afghanistan, but it makes a lot of sense to me.

http://news.yahoo.com/suicide-bomber-kills-23-afghan-wedding-183059960.html

Nothing like that happens in Armageddon, though.

[AdamBlue]

You wanna change the world? All you need is a pair of hands to work with and a brain to think with. Put it together with some old fashioned determination and and a little bit of luck, and you'll do what you wanna do. Just don't give up.

[Barsook]

You wanna change the world? All you need is a pair of hands to work with and a brain to think with. Put it together with some old fashioned determination and and a little bit of luck, and you'll do what you wanna do. Just don't give up.

+1 And a PC

[Karieith]

While changes have happened and are happening, they happen slowly. You will rarely, if ever, get the instant gratification of seeing your efforts unfold quickly. You should also get used to disappointment because things rarely work out how you hope.

That being said, while I've had a lot of positive experiences achieving one thing or another, I've begun to feel there's a certain animosity among staff towards working. To the point where they actively animate to punish and silence players who create work for them or promote activity. I suspect that's just a bias though, a bit of agitation on my end from all the barriers I've encountered in my year of play here coloring my perception. It's probably just a lack of time and the demands of so many upon so few.

[FantasyWriter]

Start small, and work your way up.
Wise man say, journey of a thousand miles begins with one step.

Setting smaller goals, increasingly difficult as they progress along the way to your endgame helps you see some results of your labor and strife as well as show others you are willing to work for what you want rather than have it handed to you.

Staffs says, no, you can't have a wagon? So.... staff answer has nothing to do with whether or not your character works toward his goals.... make or have you made some wheeles, work for Kurac or get in REALLY good with them start doing mounted caravans and hire the guards and labourers you will need to get it done. After you have done all the work you can, either staff changes their mind on their previous answer based on seeing that you were willing to go the extra mile, or who cares? You're doing what you wanted to do in the first place, you just don't have a custom item to show for it, but you don't -need- it, you are already getting it done.

You know you aren't going to get a GDB clan board/IG real estate or anything else for your multi-tasking merc/grebber/hunting clan? So?
Hire, hire hire, until you get a good crew of four or five PCs that are going to stick around... do your work, do it well, put the byn to shame, pick out the smallest apartment building in your city and rent the whole damn thing out one room to a person if that is what it takes... beat the living shit out of anyone you ever see in there who is not one of your own, get in with a Templar good enough that you know s/he'll lean on the landlord if they try kicking you out, and hell, maybe even confiscate the building for you eventually.

Basically... do EVERYTHING you can toward a goal, letting staff know along the way, rather than asking for things form them up front. There is an IG and IC work around to nearly every OOC stumbling block you will face on your way to "winning" for your PC that is neither twinky or abusive. Good luck and full speed ahead, world shakers.

[Yam]

Awesome writeup, FW.

[FantasyWriter]

Thank you.

[Kieandatu]

There is a change, in game (so far as I know, I don't see it often) that I worked on across three characters. One came up with the idea, and on subsequent characters I was in a position to learn about and help along the project (I didn't actually seek out to get it done, it was just a long-term change).

I may not have a PC to say "Yeah. He did that cool thing you see." but OOCly I know I did it, even if it took a year to do.

[Maso]

Awesome writeup, FW.

+1

Great post. Thank you.

[Barsook]

Awesome writeup, FW.

[Delirium]

Basically, you have to make the game a full-time job to leave a (semi) permanent stamp on the world. But honestly... I learned a while ago that accomplishing major stuff is cool on an OOC level, but it's the stories we tell with other PCs that makes the game. Surround yourself with interesting stories, the rest is small potatoes.

Our characters all die in the end, and even the most intricately built plot can tumble like a house of cards... so tell the story, worry less about the outcome.

Frankly I don't know why so many feel the need to have their own brand new sandbox (clan) - there's so many to play in already.

[Karieith]

All the clans currently in existence could stand to have this kind of enthusiasm for changing the world within them.

[Bast]

Awesome writeup, FW.

+1

Great post. Thank you.

+1

[FantasyWriter]

Start small, and work your way up.
Wise man say, journey of a thousand miles begins with one step.

Setting smaller goals, increasingly difficult as they progress along the way to your endgame helps you see some results of your labor and strife as well as show others you are willing to work for what you want rather than have it handed to you.

Staffs says, no, you can't have a wagon? So.... staff answer has nothing to do with whether or not your character works toward his goals.... make or have you made some wheels, work for Kurac or get in REALLY good with them start doing mounted caravans and hire the guards and labourers you will need to get it done. After you have done all the work you can, either staff changes their mind on their previous answer based on seeing that you were willing to go the extra mile, or who cares? You're doing what you wanted to do in the first place, you just don't have a custom item to show for it, but you don't -need- it, you are already getting it done.

You know you aren't going to get a GDB clan board/IG real estate or anything else for your multi-tasking merc/grebber/hunting clan? So?
Hire, hire hire, until you get a good crew of four or five PCs that are going to stick around... do your work, do it well, put the byn to shame, pick out the smallest apartment building in your city and rent the whole damn thing out one room to a person if that is what it takes... beat the living shit out of anyone you ever see in there who is not one of your own, get in with a Templar good enough that you know s/he'll lean on the landlord if they try kicking you out, and hell, maybe even confiscate the building for you eventually.

Basically... do EVERYTHING you can toward a goal, letting staff know along the way, rather than asking for things form them up front. There is an IG and IC work around to nearly every OOC stumbling block you will face on your way to "winning" for your PC that is neither twinky or abusive. Good luck and full speed ahead, world shakers.

To add some things to this after following along with the other thread:
As I  said, never take an OOC, "No, we are not going to support this through code changes" as a "No, you cannot do this."

I asked for a clear cut policy here, since the last relevant staff announcement posts were back in 2004 and 2008 and the later doesn't seem to have been carried through as far as I can tell, but my GDB search fu is not very strong.  I was told no, that they weren't going to post a new policy.  While I would really like to see a set policy, especially since staff has been "streamlining" things over the year in the direction of a more consistent responses from staff on specific subjects, I see why they don't want to do it in this case.

Since the Failure of the Armageddon Reborn deadline, they've not put any player-viewable timelines out there that might end up being disappointments to us.  This is probably, in my humble opinion, a good part of why they won't give us an updated building policy.  They are not going to say, "have your clan in game for twelve real life months and keep X number of players active in order for us to give you the keys to a house or workshop for your group" or "Keep this wilderness room build up with coded objects [for example, continuously building up a wall with blocky pieces of sandstone or a tent camp as were mentioned earlier in the thread] for twelve months without any other PCs or groups of PCs or NPCs coming in to destroy it for six months and we will give you a quit/save room and a room description change."

Why not? What if someone meets these listed requirements, but is for some other reason not ICly or OOCly capable of keeping it up? What if there is a current plot going on for people they are harassing on the other side of the Known to find out where they are hiding when they aren't raiding/magicking/cutting into trade? Should staff build it when a PC can stumble across it in a few days with the -intent- of wiping it out?
Simply put, too many variable. Does it still annoy me, yes.  Does it make me reluctant to try unless it is something I REALLY want as a concept, yes (which is probably a good thing).  If they did post a list of requirements, a good chunk of the player base would suddenly be avoiding current coded clans in favor of setting up something fresh and 'their's." Not nessessarily a bad thing, in my opinion, but I can certainly see why most staff may not like it.

Usually, when 'building' is brought up, we get, "there are changes going on in the game world that you just aren't seeing." From what I've seen over the last five years, 95% of this happens in the city states (With the exception of the world changing HRPT a couple/few years ago) with such things as monuments, rebuilding after destruction and.... pretty much it from what I have seen.  No doubt, this has been a HUGE amount of work from staff, but not everyone plays in the city states (probably less than 5% of my PCs ever go into either for more than a IG day at a time.

So why am I running off at the mouth (or fingertips rather)? To let you know, just because staff tells you, "No, you are not getting code support for this" Don't give up OOCly, and CERTAINLY don't give up ICly. Keep on trucking. Do what you can, keep staff up to date, and see what happens.  I bet with enough time and effort shown on your and your fellows parts that staff just might surprise you one day.  Be the change, Don't ask for the change.

[FantasyWriter]

On a more personal note, I wish it were possible for PC led groups to move against Coded clans with a hope of toppling or at least competing with them. But any time a group gets to be big enough to attempt such a thing, staff rightly lets you know you are getting too much PC power and out of balance with the virtual world (a group of ten PCs isn't that strong when you conciser merchant houses or tribes with thousands of heads, but when you conciser the playerbase only, they could pretty much do whatever they want and get away with it. So it's a catch 22. You can't compete unless you are large/powerful enough (even having a Blue robe and all the PC -junior- nobles behind you,  you don't have the clout to break into one of the merchant house monopolies, or take out the Guild, Jaxa Pah, or Byn in hopes of replacing them) without getting a Red, Black or virtual sorc/psion, or assassin of awesomeness after you for fecking with their pets.

Seemingly immortal god-kings aside, NOTHING last forever (in the real world or any good fiction), but the way the game works, there are things that are just never going to change under a player-led plot only policy.  Merchant houses aren't going to topple to competition or due to one or two bad PC agents.  Noble houses aren't going to do anything more than go up and down in prestige based on One PC noble's actions (which seems, IMO, kinda silly in light of this being a commentary on PC/virtual world balance). Every coded clan has too much power behind them to be toppled by PCs plots. There isn't enough room in the player base or the current policies for new clans to pop up that mirror existing clans.  You are welcome to start your own clan. Many of the existing clans in the game, in fact, were originally created by players is an awesome and powerful statement reflecting how things were in the "glory days," but now it just seems like a tease.

PS- I mentioned city clans.  Here's one on the barrier in trying to do the same thing in the desert: http://www.zalanthas.org/gdb/index.php/topic,39991.0.html

[Kieandatu]

You are welcome to start your own clan. Many of the existing clans in the game, in fact, were originally created by players is an awesome and powerful statement reflecting how things were in the "glory days," but now it just seems like a tease.

[musashi]

I dunno I mean, has anyone tried working with the staff to recruit vNPC's and NPC's along with the PC's they recruit for their budding group? Maybe that's the missing puzzle piece. I haz no idea, never tried to start a group like that before myself I'm just thinking ... if the reason the bigger clans can't be competed with is that they have all this virtual power ... players should try to acquire some of that virtual power in time with their PC recruiting.

[Dar]

The problem with this is that it's much harder to recruit NPCs then PCs. There are plenty of PCs out there who are willing to work together, for something that is basically ... a non-profit. The idea is that it becomes profitable in the future, yada, yada. Its much harder to sweet talk virtual population, them's a hungry, greedy lot.

[BleakOne]

I think a lot of people are mistaking 'very difficult' for 'impossible'. I've had some attempts to make lasting change to the gameworld, and never been met with a flat 'no'. Maybe I'm just lucky, I don't know.

I've never -succeeded-, but that's never been because of staff. I just tend to... y'know... die.

[HavokBlue]

It's unfortunate that a lot of the cool things people seem to have done in the past with staff support now require you to play Arm like a part-time job to accomplish an approximation of the same thing.

[John]

The staff were cool enough to go along with my actions and lo and behold NPC rats started appearing in the Gaj and elsewhere. That really was the limit to the plot I had hoped to start, but it was nice having been the instigator of a rat infestation - and who knows what other plots it may have affected in game.

Was this around 2002-2004? (I'm a bit hazy on when exactly). You were responsible for the Great Allanaki Rat Plague?

I remember that. My character got quite unnerved by the fact rats were appearing in the Borsail Estate. He saw it as evidence that the Templarate were losing control of the city and so he sent a PC down there to investigate what the heck was going on. What that PC reported back drove my character insane. He shared his knowledge before just going batshit insane and doing some very naughty things before I stored him (he was just too insane to play longterm).

That plot was awesome. Made much more so by the fact it had such a simple and in character beginning.

But, reporting to staff and wishing up are always going to be better options!

Before the "Character reporting tool" it was never clear how many e-mails were too many e-mails. Also unclanned characters didn't have staff to report to. IMO things are much clearer and easier now.