ATS: Website Issues

[Maso]

My feeling was that a new website (as opposed to simply changing and updating the old one) was not really on the cards.

A while back I offered to donate my services as a experienced web designer (http://www.graphicgoose.co.uk), thinking that if something was underway then utilising the professional skill set of the player base would be something that the staff would do (running this game is enough work already right?), especially when faced with the monumental task of trying to rejig all the information here into a more sensible hierarchy and finding a solution to the currently ridiculous site architecture.

But I was told that there was 'no place' for players to help with this. Which didn't make much sense... (a place???) ...leading me to believe that a proper revamp was not something of priority.

[Barsook]

The site has it charms and I think just updating it will be the best idea.  Something flashy will just pull away the point that this game is all text-based on a screen.

[Maso]

I kind of disagree, especially if you want to pull in new players, most of whom are likely to be more accustomed to visual games. The website can be used to trigger the imagination of those who might not quite get it initially, and help to draw them in.

The achaea site is pretty cool.

[A Large Bag]

While I like this site alright, I think a more artistic design to the website would attract more players to try the game.

[Malken]

I still think that what future players see after they click on the Armageddon link from the TMS site is pretty dull and bland.. I know I wouldn't really be interested in trying out Arm if all I saw was this:

http://www.armageddon.org/intro/adpage.html

Put some drawings, some pictures.. Maybe the most 'exciting' log we have or something..

[Booya]

I still think that what future players see after they click on the Armageddon link from the TMS site is pretty dull and bland.. I know I wouldn't really be interested in trying out Arm if all I saw was this:

http://www.armageddon.org/intro/adpage.html

Put some drawings, some pictures.. Maybe the most 'exciting' log we have or something..

I agree it's very lacklustre.

[Barsook]

Deleted.

[marko]

While I like this site alright, I think a more artistic design to the website would attract more players to try the game.

I don't agree with that thought.

I've thought a lot about Armageddon and how new players start over the years.  The way that Arm grows and keeps growing is through word of mouth.

A pretty website may give the wrong impression of what is a text based game.  The site for Armageddon, in my opinion, needs to clearly indicate what Arm is and assist new players in learning the ropes on what is needed.  Basically, the site is and needs to be a tutorial / reference guide.

The actual attracting of new players has already happened by the time players reach the site.  If anyone wants to increase the playerbase for Armageddon then they should tell more stories about their characters in different places - RPG gaming sites / forums, facebook posts, talk to friends IRL when out with them, at pen and paper games, etc.  I would like to see greater rewards for referrals from Armageddon but I understand the difficulty of determining the impact of any such reward especially if it were somehow linked in-game.  

Maso, I would imagine one of the reasons there would be significant hesitation in having a player work on a site design has to do with the content of the site.  A lot of the content is restricted / secret / need to know only basis.  As such, work on the site at that level should primarily be restricted to staff.   As you know, from having done site designs, you need a lot of access to be able to set everything up and the rest.  You may be able to provide a single template and have the staff do the copy overs but if that is what your idea is why not just toss together a mock-up?  If people like it they'll let their voices be heard (conversely if people do -not- like it they will be more vocal about it.)

That all being said, could the site be improved?  Definitely!  Could it leverage player experiences better?  Totally!  Could it have a better way of describing the actual experience of the game and what the game means?  For sure!  Armageddon is all about the stories of characters that weave together into an incredibly intricate and complex tapestry.  When players talk about Armageddon usually they talk about the stories of their characters and not of the game itself.  That is something that the current iteration of the website doesn't do a great job at showcasing.  

But, that could be fixed by creating a sister site for Armageddon for the stories and the like.  The experiences of Armageddon.  A lot of the content for that element can be found under player contributions.  So, have at it Maso, show us (well, me at least) what you can do!   Showcase the Armageddon experience.  I wanna see what you can do.  

[Morgenes]

The new website is under active development. We have a professional artist who helped us with the design and a professional web programmer assembling it.

Edit: to clarify we have had the design for going on three years, we just haven't had the bandwidth to work on it. As for player contributions, they are welcome in the way of suggestions and ideas such as how the content like original submissions could be better presented.

For Maso, when you offered your web design skills, we already had a design.

[Barsook]

While I like this site alright, I think a more artistic design to the website would attract more players to try the game.

I don't agree with that thought.

I've thought a lot about Armageddon and how new players start over the years.  The way that Arm grows and keeps growing is through word of mouth.

STUFF

Thank you, that's what I thought at first when I posted my reply.

[marko]

The new website is under active development. We have a professional artist who helped us with the design and a professional web programmer assembling it.

I suppose that makes most of my post irrelevant.

Way to spoil the fun!

[Dresan]

The new website is under active development. We have a professional artist who helped us with the design and a professional web programmer assembling it.

I suppose that makes most of my post irrelevant.

Way to spoil the fun!

Not saying Morgenes trolls the rest of the staff on purpose or anything but I do notice he has a tendency at times to post something to the effect of: "Woah there, kid. Now let me tell ya all how its really gonna go down!". I feel this happens more often to Nyr too. 

Of course, Nyr then has to deal with disgusted players who think he was being snarky while at the same time people are offering to have Morgenes' babies and become his sex slaves. 



Maybe its just me though.

[Malken]

I've thought a lot about Armageddon and how new players start over the years.  The way that Arm grows and keeps growing is through word of mouth.

We've been saying word of mouth, word of mouth, word of mouth for the last 15 years and we're still averaging maybe 60-65 players online a night, so unless your definition of playerbase growth is maybe 2-3 players more on average every couple of years, I think that trying out new stuff that we haven't in the past might be a better idea

I, on the other end, can't wait to see that new website and I hope it's more in line with 2012 than what we have here

[Morgenes]

The new website is under active development. We have a professional artist who helped us with the design and a professional web programmer assembling it.

I suppose that makes most of my post irrelevant.

Way to spoil the fun!

Not saying Morgenes trolls the rest of the staff on purpose or anything but I do notice he has a tendency at times to post something to the effect of: "Woah there, kid. Now let me tell ya all how its really gonna go down!". I feel this happens more often to Nyr too. 

Of course, Nyr then has to deal with disgusted players who think he was being snarky while at the same time people are offering to have Morgenes' babies and become his sex slaves. 



Maybe its just me though.

At no point did I disagree with what Nyr posted.  We do not have a date of when thi will be done. I just said it is under active development.  This was more answering Maso's post about a player's 'place' in The rebuilding of our website.

[Feco]

Looking forward to seeing it!

[A Large Bag]

I've thought a lot about Armageddon and how new players start over the years.  The way that Arm grows and keeps growing is through word of mouth.

We've been saying word of mouth, word of mouth, word of mouth for the last 15 years and we're still averaging maybe 60-65 players online a night, so unless your definition of playerbase growth is maybe 2-3 players more on average every couple of years, I think that trying out new stuff that we haven't in the past might be a better idea

I, on the other end, can't wait to see that new website and I hope it's more in line with 2012 than what we have here

Pretty much what I was thinking when I read his post. I can't wait to see the new website either and hope it's much more modern than what we have.

[Maso]

The new website is under active development. We have a professional artist who helped us with the design and a professional web programmer assembling it.

Edit: to clarify we have had the design for going on three years, we just haven't had the bandwidth to work on it. As for player contributions, they are welcome in the way of suggestions and ideas such as how the content like original submissions could be better presented.

For Maso, when you offered your web design skills, we already had a design.

Ah! Well that's AWESOME then! Sometimes I don't understand why you guys aren't more forthcoming in sharing this kind of stuff with us.

I can't wait to see it!

[Kieandatu]

I've thought a lot about Armageddon and how new players start over the years.  The way that Arm grows and keeps growing is through word of mouth.

We've been saying word of mouth, word of mouth, word of mouth for the last 15 years and we're still averaging maybe 60-65 players online a night, so unless your definition of playerbase growth is maybe 2-3 players more on average every couple of years, I think that trying out new stuff that we haven't in the past might be a better idea

I, on the other end, can't wait to see that new website and I hope it's more in line with 2012 than what we have here

To say that because Arm is a MUD, so we need to stay with a 90s-style webpage, is laughable. Malken has it right, imo, because the staff have been really pushing for more visibility (including the short burst into Facebook/twitter a while ago).

Sure, flash screens and video tutorials and "Web 2.0" stuff probably isn't the best option for the Arm.org site, but an update to it would be, and should be, an amazing thing.

And if they "hired out" to another designer (probably the web coder), it should look amazering.

[Maso]

Sure, flash screens

Flash is totally on the way out. Dated.

[Morgenes]

The new website is under active development. We have a professional artist who helped us with the design and a professional web programmer assembling it.

Edit: to clarify we have had the design for going on three years, we just haven't had the bandwidth to work on it. As for player contributions, they are welcome in the way of suggestions and ideas such as how the content like original submissions could be better presented.

For Maso, when you offered your web design skills, we already had a design.

Ah! Well that's AWESOME then! Sometimes I don't understand why you guys aren't more forthcoming in sharing this kind of stuff with us.

I can't wait to see it!

We are t always forthcoming with stuff like this because there is a lot of our plans and ideas that never get completed. It's all about setting appropriate expectations and ability to deliver.

[Feco]

If professionals were paid for their work, I'd say it's too bad the playerbase wasn't asked for donations.

I've no idea the legality of something like that, though.

[Maso]

The new website is under active development. We have a professional artist who helped us with the design and a professional web programmer assembling it.

Edit: to clarify we have had the design for going on three years, we just haven't had the bandwidth to work on it. As for player contributions, they are welcome in the way of suggestions and ideas such as how the content like original submissions could be better presented.

For Maso, when you offered your web design skills, we already had a design.

Ah! Well that's AWESOME then! Sometimes I don't understand why you guys aren't more forthcoming in sharing this kind of stuff with us.

I can't wait to see it!

We are t always forthcoming with stuff like this because there is a lot of our plans and ideas that never get completed. It's all about setting appropriate expectations and ability to deliver.

Show us the design!!!

Good for player morale etc.

[Dresan]

The new website is under active development. We have a professional artist who helped us with the design and a professional web programmer assembling it.

I suppose that makes most of my post irrelevant.

Way to spoil the fun!

Not saying Morgenes trolls the rest of the staff on purpose or anything but I do notice he has a tendency at times to post something to the effect of: "Woah there, kid. Now let me tell ya all how its really gonna go down!". I feel this happens more often to Nyr too.  

Of course, Nyr then has to deal with disgusted players who think he was being snarky while at the same time people are offering to have Morgenes' babies and become his sex slaves.  



Maybe its just me though.

At no point did I disagree with what Nyr posted.  We do not have a date of when thi will be done. I just said it is under active development.  This was more answering Maso's post about a player's 'place' in The rebuilding of our website.

I'm too lazy to find other posts that might fit with what i said, but i was mostly just teasing you.  

And playing off what Marko said....he planted the seed, blame him  

[marko]

I've thought a lot about Armageddon and how new players start over the years.  The way that Arm grows and keeps growing is through word of mouth.

We've been saying word of mouth, word of mouth, word of mouth for the last 15 years and we're still averaging maybe 60-65 players online a night, so unless your definition of playerbase growth is maybe 2-3 players more on average every couple of years, I think that trying out new stuff that we haven't in the past might be a better idea

When I first started playing Armageddon, there were regularly 40 players online.

When I came back to the game, after MUDs had lost their allure, there were around an average of 44 players online.  That's growth of 10%.  Remember, these are average numbers.

While I played, the game pretty much stayed where it was but there was no real effort to grow the playerbaes either.  From time to time someone would pop out the idea but it was never really followed through.  Marketing takes effort even word of mouth marketing.  Look at the whole voting thing for the top mud sites and how it is barely used.

When I came back this time (yes, I've left the game for significant periods of time regularly - blame real life for that) I have found, on average, 65 players online.  Again, that's growth.  To sustain 65 players during 'prime time' means growth in the overall playerbase.  I imagine if an HRPT were done today we'd see over 100 players online.

I've always felt that the 'sweet spot' for Arm was an average of 100 players online at a time.  

And Malken, yes, it's been said and it's true.  That is where the growth is happening.  Yes, it is going slowly but that is how these things happen when it's a niche and cultish product.  I haven't experienced any marketing blitzes for Arm but I've seen lots of good ideas for them.  The sustainability of a marketing campaign takes effort and time. Since Arm is run by volunteers from a wide variety of professional backgrounds we have to give the staff all the support that we can.

If anyone really wants to grow the MUD then talk about it.  Spread the news with enthusiasm.  If you play WoW on an RP server, talk about how amazing Arm is.  If you visit sites for kickstarter RPGs - talk about Armageddon.  But, here's the thing, a lot of people say they'll do this stuff but they really don't.  

So, I think ~10% growth per year is amazing for a product such as Armageddon.   I do not have the hard stats so this is my feeling.  If I am completely off, feel free to correct me Morgenes.  But, it seems that the game continues to grow at around that rate (with the usual cycles of downtimes as well).  

To say that because Arm is a MUD, so we need to stay with a 90s-style webpage, is laughable.

I don't think anyone suggested that.  I was just saying that the website for Armageddon needs to be about the gaming experience and the stories and not about graphics or artwork.  A consistent design and feel that makes judicious use of art would, possibly, be a great improvement but the focus shouldn't be that.  

And, as I said, if you want to help out, toss up a mock-up for a 'friends of armageddon' type site.  I really want to see what you can do.

[Maso]

To say that because Arm is a MUD, so we need to stay with a 90s-style webpage, is laughable.

I don't think anyone suggested that.  I was just saying that the website for Armageddon needs to be about the gaming experience and the stories and not about graphics or artwork.  A consistent design and feel that makes judicious use of art would, possibly, be a great improvement but the focus shouldn't be that. 

And, as I said, if you want to help out, toss up a mock-up for a 'friends of armageddon' type site.  I really want to see what you can do.

You've misquoted there....I didn't say that. And I'm not sure what you mean by a 'friends of armageddon' site. :p

[marko]

You've misquoted there....I didn't say that. And I'm not sure what you mean by a 'friends of armageddon' site. :p

Darn the GDB! and it's wonky quoteness.

Toss up a mock-up site for a new player to Armageddon to showcase what you are thinking the site should be like.

Going to edit the post!

[Maso]

Morgenes already said that have a design in place!