So that other thread doesn't get locked, Male and Female Equality

[Cerelum]

I think this needs updated.

help rules
Armageddon                                                         (Newbie)

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How about just making sexism another consentable piece.

[Lizzie]

If you go around asking women broads to go make you a sandwich flatbread wrap, you will be looked upon as insane at best, and needing killin' at worst. Is it against the rules specifically? I don't think so, but it does go against the general spirit of the game.

There are far better ways to add to the game than play the one person that hates all women/men in a world where sexism as we know it IRL does not and should not exist. Especially considering all the other biases that do exist and are supported heavily in the documentation. If you're looking to play a controversial or divisive character, pick one of the many likes or hatreds that are actually in the docs and push that to its limit. They don't get nearly as much loving as they should.

So, we can order a male mul to make us a flatbread wrap, because it's a stereotype about muls being nothing more than servants.
But if we order a female mul to make us a flatbread wrap, we might get an account note saying that we were sexist?

Where do we draw the line? Are we not allowed to treat -any- females poorly, or expect them to behave a certain way, just in case they perceive it as a sexist slight? And if not, which treatments -may- we impose on those females?

Are we allowed to make comments about big tits making great armor? Or is that sexist because males don't have big tits? Are we allowed to make snide remarks about wanting to get into the current f-me's snatch? Or is that sexist because males don't have snatches? Should we be required to take up all female whores' offers for sex, so as not to be accused of hating women?

SO many things that someone -might- take offense to, or *might* consider sexist...saying "sexism isn't allowed" is vague. And saying "you know what I mean" - well sure, I know what you probably mean, but that player who lives in Turkey, where cultural norms is -completely- different from the USA, might think you mean something entirely different.

[Eurynomos]

The QuickStart is part of our foundation for playing in Zalanthas. It is not one of the 8 current "rules" of Armageddon. It is, however, part of the core documentation. Overlooking this documentation on purpose is akin to elves riding mounts or northern nobles sexing commoners. Don't do it. We -will- notice, and comment/act accordingly.

[Cutthroat]

If you go around asking women broads to go make you a sandwich flatbread wrap, you will be looked upon as insane at best, and needing killin' at worst. Is it against the rules specifically? I don't think so, but it does go against the general spirit of the game.

There are far better ways to add to the game than play the one person that hates all women/men in a world where sexism as we know it IRL does not and should not exist. Especially considering all the other biases that do exist and are supported heavily in the documentation. If you're looking to play a controversial or divisive character, pick one of the many likes or hatreds that are actually in the docs and push that to its limit. They don't get nearly as much loving as they should.

So, we can order a male mul to make us a flatbread wrap, because it's a stereotype about muls being nothing more than servants.
But if we order a female mul to make us a flatbread wrap, we might get an account note saying that we were sexist?

Where do we draw the line? Are we not allowed to treat -any- females poorly, or expect them to behave a certain way, just in case they perceive it as a sexist slight? And if not, which treatments -may- we impose on those females?

Are we allowed to make comments about big tits making great armor? Or is that sexist because males don't have big tits? Are we allowed to make snide remarks about wanting to get into the current f-me's snatch? Or is that sexist because males don't have snatches? Should we be required to take up all female whores' offers for sex, so as not to be accused of hating women?

SO many things that someone -might- take offense to, or *might* consider sexist...saying "sexism isn't allowed" is vague. And saying "you know what I mean" - well sure, I know what you probably mean, but that player who lives in Turkey, where cultural norms is -completely- different from the USA, might think you mean something entirely different.

Okay... that was a joking example based on the stereotypical "make me a sandwich" expression of misogyny IRL, intended to help sum up my thoughts on the matter. Let me be more clear:

The line is drawn where there is no IC reason for a character to hold a judgment about another. Sex does not and should not factor into bias for or against a character beyond attraction/breeding and anatomical differences related to a character's reproductive system. If you want to ask a female mul to make you a flatbread wrap because she is your slave, you can do that, and there is no reason you should think otherwise.

[Cutthroat]

I think this needs updated.

help rules (snip)

How about just making sexism another consentable piece.

Like I eventually got around to editing in one of my posts, Rule 1 comfortably handles sexism. It basically says: roleplay correctly. The quickstart says: no sexism. Therefore, roleplaying correctly implies no sexism.

[Eurynomos]

And no, Lizzie. Just don't use gender as a focal point for stereotyping. Don't give a man a job "because men work harder". Don't give a woman a tailoring job because "they're good at that kind of stuff, right?"
If you remove gender as a lens, you can clearly identify what aspects of the person in question isn't suited to the job. Instead of pointing out their gender as a stereotype, you can identify these traits instead.

[Lizzie]

And no, Lizzie. Just don't use gender as a focal point for stereotyping. Don't give a man a job "because men work harder". Don't give a woman a tailoring job because "they're good at that kind of stuff, right?"
If you remove gender as a lens, you can clearly identify what aspects of the person in question isn't suited to the job. Instead of pointing out their gender as a stereotype, you can identify these traits instead.

But that really is still vague. I'm not trying to be difficult. I'm trying to do a half-devil's advocate thing, and half-sincere need for clarification. A little of both. The slippery slope, and all that.

If I remove gender as a lens, then my Militia Sergeant won't be allowed to reject the hiring of the chick with the enormous tits and delicate features, glistening waist-long hair that is kept loose and perfectly groomed, and pristine alabaster skin, on the basis that a) her tits will get in the way of her work, b) she looks too delicate to succeed as a soldier, c) it's WAY too easy for her hair to get yanked by the enemy, thus making her a liability rather than an asset, and d) anyone with skin that white obviously has no interest in spending a moment outside in the sun, and therefore we have no use for her.

Because if you combine all that together, you have "because she's too girly" and that is sexist.

Unfortunately, you have players who create their characters intentionally to be "girly" and then you tell us we're not allowed to call them on it. And that's where I find the disparity.

[Maso]

I'm totally with Lizzie on this one.

It's a delicate and fine line. But there should be recognition that men and women -are- different. Just not that women would ever be weaker (in any way) just because they are women.

But just like there are powerful warrior women, there are also pansy, alabaster skinned, manicured men - who would be equally inappropriate for hire by some organisations.

[Cerelum]

I wish I could recall the book I had to read in college but it was in psychology and it stated something along the lines of:

"Every human being is bigoted in some way, no matter what they say or believe, it's part of human nature.  The only thing we can do is try not to act on that bias."

[MeTekillot]

cerelum that's all well and good but you were arguing for the right to play a PC who was bigoted against women for shits and giggles because you know they'd get killed within a week.

[Cutthroat]

I wish I could recall the book I had to read in college but it was in psychology and it stated something along the lines of:

"Every human being is bigoted in some way, no matter what they say or believe, it's part of human nature.  The only thing we can do is try not to act on that bias."

Right. Zalanthan humans are bigoted against other races, magickers, people from other places, people of certain professions, tribals (or city folk, depending) and more.

[Yam]

And no, Lizzie. Just don't use gender as a focal point for stereotyping. Don't give a man a job "because men work harder". Don't give a woman a tailoring job because "they're good at that kind of stuff, right?"
If you remove gender as a lens, you can clearly identify what aspects of the person in question isn't suited to the job. Instead of pointing out their gender as a stereotype, you can identify these traits instead.

But that really is still vague. I'm not trying to be difficult. I'm trying to do a half-devil's advocate thing, and half-sincere need for clarification. A little of both. The slippery slope, and all that.

If I remove gender as a lens, then my Militia Sergeant won't be allowed to reject the hiring of the chick with the enormous tits and delicate features, glistening waist-long hair that is kept loose and perfectly groomed, and pristine alabaster skin, on the basis that a) her tits will get in the way of her work, b) she looks too delicate to succeed as a soldier, c) it's WAY too easy for her hair to get yanked by the enemy, thus making her a liability rather than an asset, and d) anyone with skin that white obviously has no interest in spending a moment outside in the sun, and therefore we have no use for her.

Because if you combine all that together, you have "because she's too girly" and that is sexist.

Unfortunately, you have players who create their characters intentionally to be "girly" and then you tell us we're not allowed to call them on it. And that's where I find the disparity.

Uh no. You would be fine rejecting a character for being soft and delicate. You would not be fine for rejecting them for being female. You're conflating personal characteristics with gender.

[Schrodingers Cat]

Would it be sexist to treat women different because they carry and bear children while men don't?  And by that I mean by a culture expecting/demanding that women engage in less risky behavior than males because any male can father a child, any male can father several children at once but it takes a woman an entire pregnancy to give birth to at least one child, in a way making them more valuable/vulnerable in regards to populating a society than men.

[Cerelum]

cerelum that's all well and good but you were arguing for the right to play a PC who was bigoted against women for shits and giggles because you know they'd get killed within a week.

You are correct, sometimes you just like playing a crazy ass temporary role.

[MeTekillot]

I figure they'd handle pregnancy with "don't get knocked up or you get knocked back to cleaning duty, Runner".

They probably wouldn't send a pregnant woman into the fray the way they won't send an injured (wo)man into the fray.

It just so happens they get treated like an injured employee for however long until they give birth and probably a little while after.

[Schrodingers Cat]

Lets take a tribe for example, lets say they are at war.  They send all their all 500 of their fighting caste out to fight, roughly half of them are men and half of them are women.  The battle was a bloodbath, ten survivors return but they were victorious so it was worth it, the tribe is safe.

Now that the tribe is safe, the tribe's numbers have been reduced by 490 people.  With so many casualties the tribe is going to take many more generations to recover than if they had sent only men to fight.  My point is that it only takes one man to father five hundred children, but it takes (typically) five hundred women to bear five hundred babies.  In this sense, women are much more indispensable than men.

[Is Friday]

Within the context of the game, sure. However, men are physically capable in other ways that you are neglecting that is not included within the documentation in order to avoid the sexism part altogether.

Why would we want to give women special treatment and be sexist against men? That is against documentation, too.

[Yam]

The above situation is essentially a non-issue for the two big centers of civilization and Kurac/Luir's Outpost.

Most tribe documents address this issue, though. Many tribes source children from outside the tribe. Especially ones that get into destabilizing feuds (like the Red Fangs). If a tribe gets to the point that its reproductive base is threatened, it dies out.

Women are not more valuable than men in Zalanthas. Real world examples don't necessarily apply to the game world.

[Schrodingers Cat]

Real world examples don't necessarily apply to the game world.

What makes you think it's a real world example?

[Dar]

Folk in the game cant even be prejudiced against breeds and you guys are trying to bring gender into it? Pffffth.

[Yam]

Real world examples don't necessarily apply to the game world.

What makes you think it's a real world example?

Because it isn't based on the game documentation.

[Cerelum]

Folk in the game cant even be prejudiced against breeds and you guys are trying to bring gender into it? Pffffth.

Yeah, I gotta say this irritates me, in Tuluk right now there are Chosen Lords and ladies who are acting like the elves and breeds are humans.

I intended on playing this character hard by the racism bias with elves and breeds, but everyone is so cushy to them.  If I become the hardnose racist I'm going to be looked at as crazy.

I've seen a few people who played the racism angle great, but I've never seen it in Tuluk, everyone just wants to hug everything.

I blame the inclusion of this city elf tribe.  Not that they aren't cool, but I think they are a little too respected.  After all they are just fancy shit-eating elves.

[Yam]

Insufferable.

[Schrodingers Cat]

Real world examples don't necessarily apply to the game world.

What makes you think it's a real world example?

Because it isn't based on the game documentation.

You're right, my bad.  I guess men can give birth it's right there in the docs.

[MeTekillot]

Cerelum that has nothing to do with the subject at hand but okay.

That's because in Tuluk, overt hatred or bigotry toward anyone is a no no. Tuluk is about subtlety.

You talk about how nice it was to spend Detal with your mother around that breed or mul. Or you make thinly veiled statements about chopping wood if you're actually talking about having sex or something. Play in Allanak if you want to be a hard-nosed racist and stop trying to turn the thread into a discussion about how Tuluk sucks.