'nosave crimflag'

[jstorrie]

Hi! I would like to propose a thing.

I would like to suggest the implementation of a 'nosave' sort of toggle for crimflag authority. When toggled, a character who is law-enforcement-clanned (Private or equivalent and up) would not trigger crimflag (that is, they would not inflict criminal status on others) by attacking or being attacked. This is for the following purposes:

- assassinating or otherwise brutalizing people while in disguise / not recognizable as an arm of the law

- beating the shit out of people in public (in Tektown) or behind closed doors (in Muktopia)

- corruptly murdering people in situations where your fellow soldiers would not back you up

- sparring nonclannies without murderizing them

- whapping irritating children with whips, for lulz

- pew-pewing peasants, also for the lulz (actually, I'm not sure if you can crimflag people by shooting them, maybe this is a non-thing)

I think that reasons 1 through 3 at least would add quite a bit to the game. As-is it's kind of unsporting to be an assassin in disguise for the man, as the NPC soldiers mystically know to back you up for no reason, even if you shank a guy in his apartment; I would also like to maim half-elf rinthi heathens in public and just leave them where I found them, sometimes. The sparring thing would just be gravy.

It would probably be best for this toggle to reset itself upon log-in or something like that, although that's not strictly necessary.

[brytta.leofa]

This could save so much bad-horrible, and facilitate so much good-horrible.

[MeTekillot]

This would be pretty rad.

If Cpl. Jerk were to get killed with this on in his attempts to flex his muscles at that half-elf at the bar, would that half-elf still get crim-coded?

[A Large Bag]

- assassinating or otherwise brutalizing people while in disguise / not recognizable as an arm of the law

This one, should cause the soldier to get crimmed and attacked. As far as any others know, you're just some criminal breaking the law.  Rp-wise, it should only be something you use when you are openly appearing to be a soldier.
I think it could add some benefits but I think it allows for the possibility for too much abuse as it cannot be controlled by karma, or rank of the pc, etc. I would rather see it toggle only whether or not someone gets crimmed for attacking you and not whether or not you get crimmed. I think it would be something, if it worked this way that could be used for any pcs. Also, if two people agree to fight it out in the street, they could both turn on this and fight it out without either getting crimmed. Not to say that a templar or soldier isn't going to have something to say about it, but it would prevent the crim-code from auto jumping the characters involved.
In order to do what you're talking about, I'd rather just have soldiers of a certain rank and higher immune to the crim code in their home city. Definitely starting above private rank though.

[MeTekillot]

Soldiers are already immune to crim-code in their city of choice (citation: attacking templars?). This is talking about not crim-coding said victim of aggression. Soldiers could set nocrimcode and they wouldn't crimcode folks that they attempt to smoosh, but still be immune to crimcode because, hey, soldiers.

Maybe other PCs could set this to, so that if someone initates aggression or otherwise unsavory acts upon their person, that someone wouldn't get crim-flagged either?

It is mostly the PC templar's responsibility to spot out people that they're going to give immunity to crim-code to, and decide whether or not they deserve that privilege. Remember, Templars, you don't have to let that Recruit be a Private just because it's protocol. Boot his ass if he seems like he'll go too far with it.

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

I like the idea, but I think it should be available to those higher up in the system. I don't really think the militia should support lower ranks anyway, particularly recruits. I'd love to see a more developed system for crim code, so that nobody could easily abuse it. Right now, a shitty recruit can cause a whole lot of long-lasting pain.

[RogueGunslinger]

YEEEEEEEEEEESSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSS

And Venomz, recruits don't get anything. You have to be private to get crim-code on your side.

[Synthesis]

I like the idea, but I think it should be available to those higher up in the system. I don't really think the militia should support lower ranks anyway, particularly recruits. I'd love to see a more developed system for crim code, so that nobody could easily abuse it. Right now, a shitty recruit can cause a whole lot of long-lasting pain.

Militia recruits don't have any ability to crim-flag people, anyway.

Well, I take that back...there is one pretty convoluted way you could goad people into getting themselves crim-flagged as a recruit, but it involves a scenario where the person probably should get a crim-flag, so I'm not sure it's really problematic.

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

Well, that's good then. I remember a scenario up in Tuluk a number of years ago, and I thought that the person in question was a recruit. But that's good news.

[BadSkeelz]

Hi! I would like to propose a thing.

I would like to suggest the implementation of a 'nosave' sort of toggle for crimflag authority. When toggled, a character who is law-enforcement-clanned (Private or equivalent and up) would not trigger crimflag by attacking or being attacked. This is for the following purposes:

- assassinating or otherwise brutalizing people while in disguise / not recognizable as an arm of the law

I'd imagine that being above the militia's suspicion would be an asset not lightly thrown aside. Why else would you want to join the militia if not to give you a teensy bit of authority you can swing around like a bat? Sure, it's a little unsporting, but that's why the militia officers need to keep an eye on their soldiers.

- beating the shit out of people in public (in Tektown) or behind closed doors (in Muktopia)

What emotes are for. Most people don't walk around with nosave combat on, so any attempt to just beat the shit out of someone in the street stands a good chance of devolving into a full-fledged fight rather quickly. Safer to get someone subdued in a nice back room first, and then start the emotes. Alternatively, ambush people in taverns with >hit.

- corruptly murdering people in situations where your fellow soldiers would not back you up

As we all know, full-code soldiers can already PK just about anyone they want as they're immune to the crimflag and thus don't provoke a NPC zerg rush. If you cut down someone in the street and feel you should be arrested, you can either rebel before hand (which should ditch your crim immunity along with your clan) or wish up for the staff to make sure the soldiers 'properly' respond.

- sparring nonclannies without murderizing them

Various IC restrictions in place regarding this.

- whapping irritating children with whips, for lulz

Emotes.

- pew-pewing peasants, also for the lulz (actually, I'm not sure if you can crimflag people by shooting them, maybe this is a non-thing)

I would imagine that shooting someone would crimflag them (although one assassin doc does recommend ranged weapons so "no one knows who the shooter is" so maybe not?). I think word would get out from the (v)NPCs to the PC authority figures about any acts of wanton douchebaggery anyway, without having to rely on the guards magically knowing who fucked up.

I think that reasons 1 through 3 at least would add quite a bit to the game. As-is it's kind of unsporting to be an assassin in disguise for the man, as the NPC soldiers mystically know to back you up for no reason, even if you shank a guy in his apartment; I would also like to maim half-elf rinthi heathens in public and just leave them where I found them, sometimes. The sparring thing would just be gravy.

It would probably be best for this toggle to reset itself upon log-in or something like that, although that's not strictly necessary.

My feeling is that any hypothetical militia-assassin is probably going to catch the attention of PC authority figures quicker than not, who can probably make his life as short and awkward as possible. Re-involving the crimflag is likely to just get the NPC guards into the fray and prematurely end some fun RP.

[jstorrie]

- assassinating or otherwise brutalizing people while in disguise / not recognizable as an arm of the law

This one, should cause the soldier to get crimmed and attacked. As far as any others know, you're just some criminal breaking the law.  Rp-wise, it should only be something you use when you are openly appearing to be a soldier.

I think you're interpreting what I'm suggesting backwards.

Currently, if you're a soldier of sufficient rank, and you take your uniform off and get your Ninja Disguise on and go out and backstab someone, the city guards will back you up, even though you have your black sandcloth ninja mask on and there's no way they ought to recognize you as one of their own.

I want you to be able to set 'nocrim' or whatever when you go out and do this so that the soldiers don't back you up. In other words, I want what you want.

It's a pain in the ass to play an assassin for the Man and still play fair in the OOC sense, right now.

[jstorrie]

Hi! I would like to propose a thing.

I would like to suggest the implementation of a 'nosave' sort of toggle for crimflag authority. When toggled, a character who is law-enforcement-clanned (Private or equivalent and up) would not trigger crimflag by attacking or being attacked. This is for the following purposes:

- assassinating or otherwise brutalizing people while in disguise / not recognizable as an arm of the law

I'd imagine that being above the militia's suspicion would be an asset not lightly thrown aside. Why else would you want to join the militia if not to give you a teensy bit of authority you can swing around like a bat? Sure, it's a little unsporting, but that's why the militia officers need to keep an eye on their soldiers.

You might want this as a player in order to roleplay situations in which your soldier is grossly exceeding his authority, without unfairly invoking crimcode on people. I'm not talking about being unsporting in-character, I'm talking about situations where are unsporting for out-of-character reasons. In this specific case: if you're in disguise, why do the soldiers know to take your side?

- beating the shit out of people in public (in Tektown) or behind closed doors (in Muktopia)

What emotes are for. Most people don't walk around with nosave combat on, so any attempt to just beat the shit out of someone in the street stands a good chance of devolving into a full-fledged fight rather quickly. Safer to get someone subdued in a nice back room first, and then start the emotes. Alternatively, ambush people in taverns with >hit.

Emotes do not suffice if I want my PC to actually beat the shit out of someone. Emoting in this case would be poweremoting. I'm not talking about a rough-house, boys-will-be-boys bar brawl. I'm talking about pulling out the bone swordz, chopping a motherfucker up, and leaving him whimpering for his life with 10hp in a back alley. You can't do this right now because the NPC soldiers will run in and turn your harrass-ee into mulch.

- corruptly murdering people in situations where your fellow soldiers would not back you up

As we all know, full-code soldiers can already PK just about anyone they want as they're immune to the crimflag and thus don't provoke a NPC zerg rush. If you cut down someone in the street and feel you should be arrested, you can either rebel before hand (which should ditch your crim immunity along with your clan) or wish up for the staff to make sure the soldiers 'properly' respond.

I'm not talking about situations where the law-enforcement character gets crimcoded. I'm talking about situations in which their fellow (NPC) soldiers go, 'what the fuck is that guy doing? I'm not getting involved,' or, 'oh, Corporal Beatstick is clubbing peasants again, he doesn't need our help.' Again, this is something that you as the player set when you think that it wouldn't make sense for your PC to get the coded advantage of backup.

- sparring nonclannies without murderizing them

Various IC restrictions in place regarding this.

Sure, but it doesn't make sense that someone gets crimflagged for consensual sparring with an AoD or Sun Legions PC in a closed room with no witnesses. There are appropriate IC consequences for this but the spar-ee getting crimflagged just doesn't make sense.

- whapping irritating children with whips, for lulz

Emotes.

Emotes don't deal actual damage to PC and NPCs. Moreover, PCs and NPCs can't dodge emotes.

- pew-pewing peasants, also for the lulz (actually, I'm not sure if you can crimflag people by shooting them, maybe this is a non-thing)

I would imagine that shooting someone would crimflag them (although one assassin doc does recommend ranged weapons so "no one knows who the shooter is" so maybe not?). I think word would get out from the (v)NPCs to the PC authority figures about any acts of wanton douchebaggery anyway, without having to rely on the guards magically knowing who fucked up.

I'm not sure if you understand what I'm suggesting. Maybe a guard just wants to throw some rocks at some jerkass halfbreeds. It doesn't make sense that the Half-Giant Pounder Crew would then immediately run over and arrest said halfbreeds, if the soldiers' intent was just to harrass them. Regardless, this might be a non-issue because I'm not sure if a law-enforcement PC can crimflag someone by firing a missile at them or not.

I think that reasons 1 through 3 at least would add quite a bit to the game. As-is it's kind of unsporting to be an assassin in disguise for the man, as the NPC soldiers mystically know to back you up for no reason, even if you shank a guy in his apartment; I would also like to maim half-elf rinthi heathens in public and just leave them where I found them, sometimes. The sparring thing would just be gravy.

It would probably be best for this toggle to reset itself upon log-in or something like that, although that's not strictly necessary.

My feeling is that any hypothetical militia-assassin is probably going to catch the attention of PC authority figures quicker than not, who can probably make his life as short and awkward as possible. Re-involving the crimflag is likely to just get the NPC guards into the fray and prematurely end some fun RP.

Again, the point is to not involve the crimflag. I think you're misunderstanding what I've proposed. The point is that sometimes players of law-enforcement PCs will want to have their character inflict violence on other PCs or NPCs without crimflagging the person(s) they are attacking.

[jstorrie]

If Cpl. Jerk were to get killed with this on in his attempts to flex his muscles at that half-elf at the bar, would that half-elf still get crim-coded?

Maybe by a PC or animated NPC who heard about it. Or maybe there's a case to be made that law enforcement is always going to come down on someone who kills a soldier, even if the soldier 'started it.' I don't know.

[jstorrie]

Also, if two people agree to fight it out in the street, they could both turn on this and fight it out without either getting crimmed.

Eh, no, I can't see this being tolerated in either of the city states, or even Luir's or Storm. What I'm suggesting applies specifically to PCs who, by virtue of being at or above a particular rank in the Arm of the Dragon, the Sun Legions, the Kuraci Fist or the various Templarates specifically have the authority to put someone into 'criminal' status by attacking them. Civilians who want to stab each other without getting arrested better take it outside the gates. It's illegal to even have a drawn weapon in the city-states, let alone start using it!

[jstorrie]

.

[AreteX]

I don't know how feasible it is within the code limits but perhaps someone who commits a crime is not crim-flagged instantly.  Instead a flagged timer is set on their character and after thirty seconds they are crim-flagged.  If within those thirty seconds the person who witnessed the crime turns on nosave crimcode then the flag which is tied in with that witness turns itself off, as well as the crim-code timer and the person doesn't get flagged.  This would solve problems with being alone in an apartment with someone and witnessing a crime you don't care about, and with no other witnesses you would be the only one to report such a thing.

Is that possible?

This would make it so you can set nosave crime for yourself to do your own nefarious acts and also decide that witnessing that human stab a breed really isn't all that illegal in your opinion... as long as you nosave crime yourself in thirty seconds.

[jstorrie]

Okay, again, that's not at all what we're discussing.

[brytta.leofa]

Emotes do not suffice if I want my PC to actually beat the shit out of someone. Emoting in this case would be poweremoting. I'm not talking about a rough-house, boys-will-be-boys bar brawl. I'm talking about pulling out the bone swordz, chopping a motherfucker up, and leaving him whimpering for his life with 10hp in a back alley. You can't do this right now because the NPC soldiers will run in and turn your harrass-ee into mulch.

And, mind you, thank Tek for our glorious emote system and all that, but emoted actions just don't bring on the same adrenaline rush.  Not for me, at least.

I think that fear of soldiers is actually a little less than it should be, because people know that a soldier has two options in the short term: (1) talk at you really nasty and (2) zergrush instabeep.  Beating someone up slowly, where his player has no idea whether you mean to finally kill him or not, that's scare-making stuff.

[brytta.leofa]

I would like to suggest the implementation of a 'nosave' sort of toggle for crimflag authority. When toggled, a character who is law-enforcement-clanned (Private or equivalent and up) would not trigger crimflag (that is, they would not inflict criminal status on others) by attacking or being attacked. This is for the following purposes:

#1 assassinating or otherwise brutalizing people while in disguise / not recognizable as an arm of the law
#2 beating the shit out of people in public (in Tektown) or behind closed doors (in Muktopia)
#3 corruptly murdering people in situations where your fellow soldiers would not back you up
#4 sparring nonclannies without murderizing them

For #2 to work, a soldier with 'nosave crimflag' on would have to retain the benefit of not being crimflagged when he attacks someone, right?  This detracts slightly from #1 and #3 (and provides a method of outing undercover detectives!), but it's probably a good compromise.

[Potaje]

I would like to suggest the implementation of a 'nosave' sort of toggle for crimflag authority. When toggled, a character who is law-enforcement-clanned (Private or equivalent and up) would not trigger crimflag (that is, they would not inflict criminal status on others) by attacking or being attacked. This is for the following purposes:

#1 assassinating or otherwise brutalizing people while in disguise / not recognizable as an arm of the law
#2 beating the shit out of people in public (in Tektown) or behind closed doors (in Muktopia)
#3 corruptly murdering people in situations where your fellow soldiers would not back you up
#4 sparring nonclannies without murderizing them

For #2 to work, a soldier with 'nosave crimflag' on would have to retain the benefit of not being crimflagged when he attacks someone, right?  This detracts slightly from #1 and #3 (and provides a method of outing undercover detectives!), but it's probably a good compromise.

Perhaps it is better said that the one being attacker, ninja-fied, is not auto crimflag for soldier attack, since most likely this would happen in private, and when a ranked soldier strikes or is struck by a non-soldier they get crimmed either way, in private or in public.

If I get the point of the matter correctly.

And adding I would say, the Soldier ninja-ass. Should not be crimcoded because if they were caught they would pull off their mask and say hey soldier I'm on duty of the Man, black opts here, go about your business.

And the soldier would say, oh yea, I've seen you in drills, sergeant major, corporal, lieutenant brutal face.

[jstorrie]

For #2 to work, a soldier with 'nosave crimflag' on would have to retain the benefit of not being crimflagged when he attacks someone, right?  This detracts slightly from #1 and #3 (and provides a method of outing undercover detectives!), but it's probably a good compromise.

An additional setting wherein the law-enforcer gave up their own protection from the law, too, would be excellent. I just wanted to keep the initial proposal simple.

[AreteX]

Okay, again, that's not at all what we're discussing.

I don't see how it doesn't apply to exactly what you're talking about.  It allows you to witness crimes and commit them yourself, including attacking or being attacked by setting this flag.  Which would also include friendly attacks(sparring, or whatever) and other types of crime when you're involved/watching.

Perhaps your wearing that ninja outfit to kill someone with a PARTNER.  What happens then?  You attack/get attacked and you don't crimflag the person but what about your partner?  You just watched him attack someone and therefore, the OOC Code for Crimflagging flags him because you witnessed it.

I don't see how my idea wasn't valid :/

[jstorrie]

There's specific code that gets invoked when members of the law-enforcement clans get in combat, and that's what we're talking about. As far as I know, it doesn't matter which PCs witness it.

[AreteX]

I see.

What I am referring to is the "witnessing" aspect of crim-code.  I am pretty sure if you are a ranking member of the City Militia's with this sort of code backing you that simply witnessing a crime will crim-code someone.  I could be wrong...

So that is what I was mentioning.  That even witnessing a crime will often get someone crim-flagged when you as a character would of just ignored that crime.  It goes along the same lines as what you're talking about as well.

[RogueGunslinger]

I see.

What I am referring to is the "witnessing" aspect of crim-code.  I am pretty sure if you are a ranking member of the City Militia's with this sort of code backing you that simply witnessing a crime will crim-code someone.  I could be wrong...

You are wrong.

[Case]

I see.

What I am referring to is the "witnessing" aspect of crim-code.  I am pretty sure if you are a ranking member of the City Militia's with this sort of code backing you that simply witnessing a crime will crim-code someone.  I could be wrong...

You are wrong.

You are wrong. A PC enforcer will flag a criminal if the enforcer sees the crime.

[RogueGunslinger]

I see.

What I am referring to is the "witnessing" aspect of crim-code.  I am pretty sure if you are a ranking member of the City Militia's with this sort of code backing you that simply witnessing a crime will crim-code someone.  I could be wrong...

You are wrong.

You are wrong. A PC enforcer will flag a criminal if the enforcer sees the crime.

Are you sure this didn't just happen in a place where the person would have been flagged already anyways? I can imagine this creating a problem with a militia person going outside the gates and witnessing a murder/pickpocket. Wouldn't this, then crim flag the attacker/thief?

I suppose I could be wrong and that the code is more complicated than I'm imaging it. But I just figured you had city-room and outdoors rooms. And that you got crim-flagged in rooms that are in the city while doing a crime.

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

I don't know about witnesses, but back when I played a Tor noble, we had to deal with sparring Templars, and the Templar would have to pardon me after every fight, even though we were nowhere near a soldier or a city-law room.

[racurtne]

I see.

What I am referring to is the "witnessing" aspect of crim-code.  I am pretty sure if you are a ranking member of the City Militia's with this sort of code backing you that simply witnessing a crime will crim-code someone.  I could be wrong...

You are wrong.

You are wrong. A PC enforcer will flag a criminal if the enforcer sees the crime.

Are you sure this didn't just happen in a place where the person would have been flagged already anyways? I can imagine this creating a problem with a militia person going outside the gates and witnessing a murder/pickpocket. Wouldn't this, then crim flag the attacker/thief?

I suppose I could be wrong and that the code is more complicated than I'm imaging it. But I just figured you had city-room and outdoors rooms. And that you got crim-flagged in rooms that are in the city while doing a crime.

Case is correct.

[jstorrie]

I don't know if being able to un-do crimflag after the fact (like the 30-second take-back sort of system AreteX has proposed) is going to work. However, I don't think witnessing wrecks things - if you witness Amos Half-Elven fight back against Corporal Brutalface, but Corporal Brutalface has nocrimflag on, then you aren't witnessing Amos do anything 'illegal' and thus oughtn't flag him. That might require some modifications to how and when things trigger crimflag in the first place, though... any staff input on how feasible this all might be? I've never seen the guts of the crimflag code, obviously.