Is such a race even possible? (Giorgio Tsoukalos Edition)

[AdamBlue]

So.
Elves and Dwarves. What would the result be?

Gith and Mantis?

Gith and Dwarves?

Half-giants and Dwarves?

We can just imagine what the character's would be named, and what they would be like.

Imagine a half-giant and desert elf.

[bcw81]

Biology does not work that way.

[MeTekillot]

Probable miscarriages in the event that they /do/ work, and a much higher chance of the sperm not taking to the egg whatsoever.

I wonder about half-giants and dwarves, though.

[boog]

um, dead.

[BadSkeelz]

The headless body of a female dwarf lays here, naked, and split in twain.

A female dwarf's head lies some distance away.

[Bish]

Well, elves and humans can have children and dwarves and humans can have children. In theory, elves and dwarves should be possible to have children. Keyword in that is -In theory- though, just the thought of elf/dwarf sex is horrifying though.

Oh course half-giants are from humans and giants with a bit of magick thrown in so I guess that would be another series of odd match-ups; if that magick was still around.

But back to the possible combination for names of these pretend creatures.

elf + dwarf = goliath
gith + mantis = stinkbug
gith + dwarf = hunchback or shortshit
dwarf + half-giant = giant mul
half-giant + desert elf = tribal hulks

[Patuk]

I dare you, I double dare you, to find this shit out IC. Go ahead. Try it.

[titansfan]

I'm gonna make a mix between a braxat and a silt-flyer.....I'll do it! Don't dare me! I'm freakin' crazy! *googlie eyes*

[Barsook]

Make a dwarf and have that focus then before I take it.  

[bcw81]

Well, elves and humans can have children and dwarves and humans can have children. In theory, elves and dwarves should be possible to have children. Keyword in that is -In theory- though, just the thought of elf/dwarf sex is horrifying though.

Not at all. There is a distinct difference between elves and humans, the fact that they can still mate and produce fertile offspring leads one to belive that they are close enough together genetically. However, humans and dwarves produce sterile offspring, leading one to belive they're further away from each other than the previous relationship. Now, that said, we have no idea if dwarves and elves are directly opposite each other on the human evolution tree. We know they -can't- mate, so one would assume they are further apart.

Hypothetical: (That my Bio teacher in High School said came from a study, but I'm too lazy to find the study)
There are four populations of mice, all on different directions of an impassable mountain. (for this example, we'll say they're all on the cardinal directions) The north and east and the north and west might still be able to breed together, and maybe even make fertile offspring. The south and east, and the south and west would be the same as the formor; able to produce fertile offspring. Now, the south and north breeds of mice wouldn't be able to produce offspring at all due to evolution changing them so far. The east and west might be able to still produce offspring, but they're still too far apart to produce any fertile offspring - Which means that in the future they might not even be able to produce ofspring at all.

[Namino]

ZALANTHAS EDITION!

[bcw81]

Oh.

My.

God.

I just nostalgia'd.

SO HARD.

I wanted thart game forever when I saw it in Wallmart when I was but a wee spratling. ;-; I never got it.

[Namino]

Game was pretty intense.

Wheagles anyone?



Anyone want to try modding in mekillots and stuff?

[AdamBlue]

I dare you, I double dare you, to find this shit out IC. Go ahead. Try it.

I wanna see a halfling and a half-giant have a kid.

[hatchets]

Not at all. There is a distinct difference between elves and humans, the fact that they can still mate and produce fertile offspring leads one to belive that they are close enough together genetically. However, humans and dwarves produce sterile offspring, leading one to belive they're further away from each other than the previous relationship. Now, that said, we have no idea if dwarves and elves are directly opposite each other on the human evolution tree. We know they -can't- mate, so one would assume they are further apart.

Hypothetical: (That my Bio teacher in High School said came from a study, but I'm too lazy to find the study)
There are four populations of mice, all on different directions of an impassable mountain. (for this example, we'll say they're all on the cardinal directions) The north and east and the north and west might still be able to breed together, and maybe even make fertile offspring. The south and east, and the south and west would be the same as the formor; able to produce fertile offspring. Now, the south and north breeds of mice wouldn't be able to produce offspring at all due to evolution changing them so far. The east and west might be able to still produce offspring, but they're still too far apart to produce any fertile offspring - Which means that in the future they might not even be able to produce ofspring at all.

While I do personally enjoy the logic behind the theory. One thing that always shoots science to shit, and why science normally fails in most Roleplaying settings is Magic. Science being based off logic, sort of gets shot to shit when Magic comes through and makes the impossible possible. I would never say anything is impossible in a realm where someone can chant "hummdidee dummdiddee" and actually have it dooo something.

So.
Elves and Dwarves. What would the result be?

Gith and Mantis?

Gith and Dwarves?

Half-giants and Dwarves?

We can just imagine what the character's would be named, and what they would be like.

Imagine a half-giant and desert elf.

Elves and Dwarves... I would call it a dwelf! and it would have huge almond eyes inside of a wrinkly skinned bearded face, with pointed ears that didnt stand up (they would flap over) It would drag its hands on the ground cause its arms would be 4 foot long each and it would be 4 foot tall, two feet of which would be legs. It would be based on the slender elven frame, but with the hearty dwarven build, so it would have wrinkle sacks of flesh and skin that would hang off its body and likely get infected.

The rest, I haven't really put much though into as of yet, cause I haven't really studied up on the races.

[Reiteration]

Code Select Expand

Tumbling in from the east in a series of rough rolls, the severely-wounded lad exclaims, in sirihish:
   "Tektolnes save me! He moves like a sharp an' swings like a stump!"

[bcw81]

While I do personally enjoy the logic behind the theory. One thing that always shoots science to shit, and why science normally fails in most Roleplaying settings is Magic. Science being based off logic, sort of gets shot to shit when Magic comes through and makes the impossible possible. I would never say anything is impossible in a realm where someone can chant "hummdidee dummdiddee" and actually have it dooo something.

Magic can be logical too. Find out IC.

[maxid]

Magic can be logical too. Find out IC.

Magic can contain logic, but it also, by definition, interacts with the mundane in a way that turns the logic of the mundane on its head.  Your statement doesn't really fit there.  He's saying mundanely it may not be possible, but magick can change that, so you shouldn't call it impossible, even if mundanely it is illogical for it to happen.  Magick's logic, or lack thereof, has no bearing.  

Besides which, magick can be highly illogical as well.  Find out OOC. (help silt)

[Feco]

The way the word logic is being used is hurting me.

Magick is fleshed out enough that it's likely possible to make inference to the possibilities of magick, given the correct amount of knowledge.

I believe this is what bcw81 was getting at too.

[Intrepid]

Going back to the OP, the precedent was set that two races could be combined through magical experimentation.  One can assume other races were combined with less stellar results, but it certainly could be possible to combine some of what you're suggesting.

Although I loved the description of a dwelf earlier in the thread, it seems most likely that most mammalian humanoid races, when combined, would make something more...human.  Human seems to be the proto-race (yes, I know Dark Sun claims halflings are), with the widest range of genetic trait anomalies.  It seems likely to me that most of the core races are evolutionary offshoots, with giants and gith being the farthest removed.  Mantis evolved entirely separate due to their isolation from the cities and whatever else the humans were doing back in the day.

I'd still love to see Dursa and Ghaati tossed into the pc playable mix.

[Bast]

To quote on of my players in my table top game "rhinoceros can hump a horse all day, it does not mean they will have viable offspring". Genetics just don't work like that.. not everything should be able to breed with everything else. I think in Arm most of the races are viewed as demi humans so you can have things like Half elves and Muls but honestly I don't even allow half elves in my table top games.

[hatchets]

And here I always thought that was how we got Unicorns! Can we get some consistant Horse Humping Rhino's to test they don't breed...

[Bast]

LOL (runns off to rob a zoo)
seriously though creatures of magic like (dragons, demons, celestial's) are one thing...IMHO everything else should follow real world laws of nature/genetics 

[Namino]

Er, well, following the laws of genetics, there's at least a decent chance that most demi-humans could all interbreed.

Elves and Humans are technically subspecies of the same species if they can breed together naturally. The use of magic for Halfgiants and Muls make me feel like initially there was in-viability in naturally produced feotuses it compensated for, but as the former are not sterile (IE, both viable and nonsterile hybrids were produced -- that is, Halfgiants can breed insofar as I know), then you can argue that giants and humans are the same species. However, as Muls are sterile, it would appear that dwarves and humans are not the same species, even though they can produce offspring, as offspring have to be fertile in order to qualify the two parents as sharing the same species.

Though, I would suggest that Half-giants and humans are technically separate species, due to... *cough*... steric considerations.

But seeing as Muls are a playable race despite being sterile, I can't see why all the demi human races *could* have offspring. I'm pretty confident that they're all in the same Genus, if not species. And there's usually a good chance of success at producing sterile offspring -- see Ligers and Mules -- within the same Genus.

[hatchets]

In a previous Mud I played all races could breed with all other races, thankfully the runner of the mud required any and all mixed babies to be hideously deformed. Needless to say, everyone wanted to be the snowflake who had a normal looking Dwarf/Cyclops or Hamakei/spectre (Hamakei in this realm were bird people, and spectre were like bug people)

That being said.... I think Chamera's look cool heh think of the cross breeding that takes.

[Karieith]

Male dwarves with female humans make Muls.
Male dwarves with female elves would also make Muls?

Are female dwarves unable to conceive if they get it on with human or elven males?

I guess find out IC, eh?

Reading the animals docs shows that a few creatures have been specially bred (Sunlons.)
So I wonder what else a properly motivated individual could string together.

Half-man, half-bahamet, half-tregil, all awesome.

[Armaddict]

Elf + dwarf.

In Dark Sun, they were indeed called a dwelf.  I think we should change it to Dwul (pronounced Dwool).  Like Mul, but with dw in it.

Slobbering profusely, the spit-faced, speech-impeded templar says, in sirihish:
   "Is that a Dwul down dere?!"

Rolling her eyes and not bothering to look to the arena floor, the normal templar says, in sirihish:
   "Yes.  You leave a drool everywhere."

[Gilgamesh]

Perhaps Elven bodies are too slim to even bare a dwarven child, so by the time they are pregnant, they die/have a miscarriage.

[Patuk]

Code Select Expand

The chubby, balding man says, in sirihish,
"He is half man, half chalton, half carru: manchaltoncarru.

[AdamBlue]

Sorry for bringing this back up, but I had a wierd kind of thought- And bear with me here.

So, if what I've seen says that elves are farther away from dwarves in the genetic line, while humans are closer...

What if a half-elf and a dwarf bump uglies? Would it still result in a Mul, or maybe it would result in some kind of HORRIBLE ABOMINATION.

I am seriously considering wanting to create a dwarf with the focus to bump uglies with a half-elf and see if, somehow, it works. EVEN IF IT KILLS HER. Then the child will become... Some kind of... Half elf, half dwarf... Beast.

It would certainly be an ugly one.

[FantasyWriter]

IF a half-elf/dwarf were to 'mate in the wild' the child would die along with the mother.

The question is why would Borsail, Kasix or Winrothol WANT to breed a breed with a dwarf?
A mul that is even more emo than normal? Recipe for disaster.

So, more than likely, even if genetically possibly, it would be VERY unlikely to ever happen.

[BadSkeelz]

I bet it's happened at least once in each house's history, however. If only FOR SCIENCE/the lulz of it.

[Maso]

When two different, similar species mate in the real world (horse+donkey, tiger+lion, Muls :p) the offspring of such a union are infertile. I kind of wish breeds were this way in Arm...It would make more sense. Otherwise, considering their social status as outcasts, you would think they would end up hooking up together way more often, and would have established their own 'breed' by now.

Also, just because two species are similar (humanoids), doesn't mean that they would physically capable of 'cross fertilisation'. I imagine with Muls, that even getting the pregnancy to occur and stick in the first place would be the greatest part of the difficulty, requiring special techniques (magick probably) from the Houses that breed them...not just techniques to help with survival during pregnancy and birthing.

[Yam]

Muls don't happen without intervention. A dwarf and a half-elf fucking outside of House Borsail or Winrothol would produce nothing.

[Maso]

Oh yeah. I know that. I was more referring to the fact that they are born sterile...which makes sense. Half-elves are apparently not born sterile...which doesn't make much sense. If they are fertile, they have been around long enough to a be a race in their own right, more like half-giants, with both parents being breeds rather than the parents always being a human and an elf.

But having half-elves with half-elf parents being a common thing would need some thinking in regards to their mentality...as it would be different and start to evolve. Complicated. They should totally just be sterile.

[Yam]

Hybrid sterility in real life is on a continuum. It's not really a hard and fast thing. Some hybrids are usually sterile due to biology. Some hybrids are sterile due to behavior, like mating cycles that don't match up.

In Arm elves and humans are genetically similar enough that their offspring are not biologically sterile. Dwarves and humans are not so closely related, so muls are biologically sterile.

[lordcooper]

Well what about a dragon and a dwarf then?