Streamline the ordering process

[Kronibas]

The only inconsistency that mildly bugs me is that some Houses have orderable item lists posted on the GDB for not only family members but also grunt level dudes while others do not have item lists for either, anywhere.

This inconsistency was rectified.

Heh, I guess not by letting all item lists be posted on all House boards, eh?

[maxid]

When you roll up a new kadian family member, you're just starting out, anyway. You're not expected to be perfectly knowledgeable. I don't see the issue.

Learn along with your character.

You don't start playing the game knowing all the wilderness areas like the back of your hand, either.

C'mon man. Seriously.

p.s. I didn't keep that list. I'm aware I'm probably an exception to the rule; but no, I'd start out only vaguely remembering.

edit: I missed where you said "passable knowledge" - very sneaky. When I said extensive I meant extensive. I had "passable knowledge" of the Kadian inventory much sooner than that.

You're now displaying a fundamental, seemingly intentional misunderstanding of my point.  You'd know it better than a newbie faster even as a new family member due to your OOC learning and while there is nothing that can be done about the wilderness map without ruining the game, there is something that can be done about this (by the way, I'm not a fan of posting TOTAL LISTS OMG, just an organized easy to find/access lift of common items, or a self-refilling merchant with said common items) so it's worth looking into.  I don't understand why some people on the GDB are so against positive change, or even a discussion about potential changes.  As I said before, an appeal to tradition is absolutely worthless, this is a system that can be altered for the better, and so it merits discussion beyond ITS FINE LAWL, NO NEED TO DISCUSS, that is the most intellectually lazy statement that could be made about anything.  Also I wasn't being sneaky with the phrase passable knowledge, it was posted publicly on a message board.  I literally don't know how I could be less sneaky, so that was pointless snark.  I get that you're invested in this for some reason, and so you felt the need to attack, but it's pretty unnecessary.

[Yam]

.

[Yam]

Okay I have read your post. What is your solution to your perceived problems.

[Eurynomos]

The only inconsistency that mildly bugs me is that some Houses have orderable item lists posted on the GDB for not only family members but also grunt level dudes while others do not have item lists for either, anywhere.

This inconsistency was rectified.

Heh, I guess not by letting all item lists be posted on all House boards, eh?

Not sure on your wording here, but yes. Correct. I think.

[maxid]

Okay I have read your post. What is your solution to your perceived problems.

There were a few options discussed, you even brought up a couple of ideas.  However, Nyr also said they already have a system in place for the future, should this project receive coder time.  I was just pointing out how utterly unconstructive you and Delirium were being for seemingly no reason at all.  If you'd like to discuss the pros and cons of the offered ideas, then by all means, let's.  But I don't really get your endless posts worshiping the status quo as Holy Writ.  There's always room for discussion of ideas. (also, note: They are not just my perceived problems.  They are problems that more than one person in the thread have pointed out, including Nyr and, as gleaned from Nyr's post, other staff members!  I'm not even the OP of the thread.)

[Thunkkin]

The only inconsistency that mildly bugs me is that some Houses have orderable item lists posted on the GDB for not only family members but also grunt level dudes while others do not have item lists for either, anywhere.

This inconsistency was rectified.

Solidifying my decision to never play a House merchant again. (Not that I have the time to do that right now, anyway). That Kuraci item list, which was not 100% complete but had all the basic stuff, was a godsend on my second character when I was still a noob. I played that character for seven RL months. I'm really not sure as a newbie how I would have handled the role without the list, but I bet I would have burned out much, much faster. I do know that I don't want my games to be "work." When I played my first (and only) Kadian merchant, I realized the extent to which the basic Kuraci gear list saved me drudgery and annoyance. Some players may really enjoy sending requests back and forth and trying to figure out which colors of high-heeled silk shoe is available and they may enjoy building their own private databases of clan-only items.  Nothing wrong with that. But I wonder if more House merchant chars would stick around if some of the nails-on-chalkboard aspects were removed or reduced. I suppose the role's just not for me, and that's OK, too. I don't want this to be taken as bitching, just the viewpoint of someone who played a Kuraci merchant as a noob and then a Kadian merchant later.

It's also too bad because certain items will disappear from the game that only older players will know about. If someone doesn't use OOC knowledge, they won't know the items exist. I can think of a few Kuraci items that shouldn't be rare in any sense but that I rarely see and that will continue to fade from the game as time passes. Too bad.

(I can't even imagine what it would be like for a newer player to get a Salarr family role and have to deal with not knowing about the House's basic armor. Yech. I shudder at the thought of the annoyance of having to cope with that).

[Lizzie]

I'll chime in also, as someone who's played GMH merchants - one family member sponsored role, and several who landed the jobs through the hiring and promotion process. All three open GMH houses by the way.

As someone in a *sponsored* family member role, it really doesn't make sense for a PC to pop out of chargen NOT knowing certain things. Your character was born and raised in the merchanting environment, and educated about the House, its history, and its products. If you don't -know- what your own house sells, then your family should not have let you out to represent the house as a publically-accessable Junior Merchant/Agent. Knowing which spices are common, which are rare, and the *general* price structure for each in whichever city you gen out of, should be a *given* for a Kuraci family member Junior Merchant.

Knowing which of the House's fashions are northern, which are for certain nobles, or are livery for certain noble houses, and not available to the public, and the rarety of certain of the more rare but known items - should be a -given- for a Kadian northern Family Member.

Knowing about the rarety of silt horror plate armor, whether or not certain materials can be etched and which are only available plain, which armors are "extra light weight for hunters" (usually meaning it offers a + to stamina and/or boost to wilderness hide/sneak) and which are designed specifically to fend off close-range melee attack with swords (plate armor), should be a -given- for a Salarri family merchant. The actual products. I don't mean the generic types. A Salarri family Junior Merchant should be able to say "oh you know what, our family makes something with you in mind. When I get to the warehouse I'll take a look and see if we have one in stock. If not, I'll order it for you."

On the other hand, an -employee- who starts out as a recruit/trainee PC, who is earning/clawing/manipulating/extorting herself to the top, shouldn't magickally know the entire item list. They'd of course be -familiar- with the type of products being sold, and maybe have personal knowledge of certain items available, plus whichever items happen to be loaded up on the NPC shopkeepers/warehouse manager. Anything else, they should have to ask IC or shoot a request tool for.

By the time someone gets to the rank of Agent/Merchant (not junior/overseer/apprentice), one of the privileges of their rank -should- be access to the full item list. ICly, it'd be their warehouse merchant NPC having spent virtual time teaching them the whole thing (or if the PC has read/write cavilish, then access to the written list). OOCly, it'd be available on the website documentation, password protected.

The above is what I'd consider an ideal situation. Starting family members knowing much of the list, but not necessarily every single item and its house price. Recruited non-family PCs who start out as low-ranking employees should have to learn it ICly, in game, through in-game experience. Promoted family member PCs should have access to the full list.

[A Large Bag]

I agree with the previous poster. In some situations it makes perfect sense for them to have much more knowledge of what their house sells, etc. In some situations, it makes perfect sense that they do not. It's not a clear cut issue one way or another only, imo.

[maxid]

Brilliant Post

This is a very good way, in my opinion, to handle things.  If you come up IC, learn it IC.  If you app a twenty to thirty year old family member?  Maybe you should be given a bit of knowledge so you don't sound like a jackass, promising that bow X does thing Y, or that gear A is better for doing B than gear C, when you're completely wrong (and have no real way of knowing whether you're wrong or not, because you chose guild: merchant!)

[Thunkkin]

Lizzie's solution is excellent.

I remember being surprised when I realized that my first sponsored role didn't have access to additional documentation. I had always assumed that GMH family members, nobles, and Templars had secret files/forums that gave them the vital information to jump into the game without being clueless idiots.

On the other hand, that DOES explain a lot ... 

[maxid]

Lizzie's solution is excellent.

I remember being surprised when I realized that my first sponsored role didn't have access to additional documentation. I had always assumed that GMH family members, nobles, and Templars had secret files/forums that gave them the vital information to jump into the game without being clueless idiots.

On the other hand, that DOES explain a lot ... 

You do get SOME additional documentation.  But it's not to the degree that some people believe it is.

[Iiyola]

It's also too bad because certain items will disappear from the game that only older players will know about. If someone doesn't use OOC knowledge, they won't know the items exist.

This.

A real shame.

[Delirium]

Maxid: take a few deep breaths and chill out, man. I never said I had a hardon for the status quo, and if you got that impression, then blame my lazy posting, sure.

Here's my position: I don't think it's the big deal y'all are making it out to be. It's NOT HARD to do a little legwork yourself and be savvy.

Staff have said that they're not doing this now, but that if they were to, they already have a solution in mind.

So... why is everyone still arguing about it?

[maxid]

Maxid: take a few deep breaths and chill out, man. I never said I had a hardon for the status quo, and if you got that impression, then blame my lazy posting, sure.

Here's my position: I don't think it's the big deal y'all are making it out to be. It's NOT HARD to do a little legwork yourself and be savvy.

Staff have said that they're not doing this now, but that if they were to, they already have a solution in mind.

So... why is everyone still arguing about it?

I'm fine, promise .  It is a big deal for the reasons mentioned in the thread, it'd be pretty annoying to list them all again, so please feel free to reread the thread so that you can understand .  We are discussing solutions because it is fun to discuss potential ways to improve the game, we might even inspire a staffer into thinking - hey this could be a positive contribution to the game, let me go do this!  Then the game is made better for everyone, and we all get an improved experience.  This, being a discussion board, is a place that is uniquely suited for discussion.  I'm glad I could illuminate this phenomenon for you, please let me know if you have any more questions relating to why people are daring to post ideas and opinions on this board, or anything else, and I will do my best to help again! 

[Kronibas]

If a master item list is made for family members or peasants who rise in rank, then there is a high chance that such a list will start making its rounds through certain circles of players like a cheap rinthi whore.

Were this to happen, what's the worst that might happen?  Eh, I dunno.


I have spent a LOT of time playing merchant house family members.  I've played family members for Salarr, Kadius, Nenyuk, and Kurac.  I have always managed to get by without a master list, despite always having wanted one.  I think one of the true shames in not having a master list is that some really great items in certain databases have almost no way of getting back into the game because there are no PCs who know about them, despite the fact that they would ICly be able to ask superiors or warehouse folks about less common stuff.

[Yam]

I think one of the true shames in not having a master list is that some really great items in certain databases have almost no way of getting back into the game because there are no PCs who know about them, despite the fact that they would ICly be able to ask superiors or warehouse folks about less common stuff.

You can send in requests to do this.

[WWYD]

Kadius has a very, very wide selection.

There's no ideal situation.

edit: to clarify, I mean you're asking the immortal to run a check through all the items in the game for really specific keywords, be it Salarr, Kurac, or Kadius, since they only have certain tags available (and very few tags for things like 'Fale' or whatever - when I last played a Kadius merchant, we had a Reynolte-specific jacket sitting around).

[maxid]

Kadius has a very, very wide selection.

There's no ideal situation.

There's not, but there may be ways to make it easier than it currently is.  There'll always be problems with any system, but it's human nature to try and make things better when we can.

[Synthesis]

There will always be disconnects between what a character should know and what the player does know.  It applies to every type of character, from the lowest grebber to the most powerful templar.  This problem cannot be universally corrected (even if the entire database were posted, disconnects would occur due to PEBCAK).  Thus, you can't use this particular problem in itself as a point in argument for bettering the game.

Instead, you have to argue why code should be instituted to minimize the problem for certain character types.  This is essentially a consequentialist argument.  You have to argue that GMH family members are somehow more important to the proper functioning of the game than other character types, and to such an extent that it warrants intervention, and that the proposed interventions will actually improve the situation, and fend of criticisms that there are other interventions that would be more beneficial.  In these terms, I haven't been impressed by any of the pro arguments, thus far.

[Fredd]

Another problem is that PC usually don't provide the exact sdesc of the item. Most of orders are vague: "I want something green to go with my brown skirt, not silk, but still something fancy." or "There was this hat, I think it was brown... or maybe black... or pink? Either way, it was cool and I want it."

This.

When i played a Kadian the VAST majority of my orders from commonors and nobles were along the lines of. " I was a velvet outfit"

or

" I want a full outfit with jewlery, orange purple and chartreuse colors, when will you get it for me"

[Fredd]

The only inconsistency that mildly bugs me is that some Houses have orderable item lists posted on the GDB for not only family members but also grunt level dudes while others do not have item lists for either, anywhere.

This inconsistency was rectified.

Sorry for the double post but no. Unless this was very very recent. Kadius has no such list for the pc's in Kadius, and to my knowledge the st's still need to manually search the database for each item.

[Kronibas]

The only inconsistency that mildly bugs me is that some Houses have orderable item lists posted on the GDB for not only family members but also grunt level dudes while others do not have item lists for either, anywhere.

This inconsistency was rectified.

Sorry for the double post but no. Unless this was very very recent. Kadius has no such list for the pc's in Kadius, and to my knowledge the st's still need to manually search the database for each item.

I wrote that some Houses have had lists for orderable items, and that is true.  I didn't say Kadius does, but at least one House does did.

[Fredd]

The only inconsistency that mildly bugs me is that some Houses have orderable item lists posted on the GDB for not only family members but also grunt level dudes while others do not have item lists for either, anywhere.

This inconsistency was rectified.

Sorry for the double post but no. Unless this was very very recent. Kadius has no such list for the pc's in Kadius, and to my knowledge the st's still need to manually search the database for each item.

I wrote that some Houses have had lists for orderable items, and that is true.  I didn't say Kadius does, but at least one House does did.

I was referring to the gentleman that posted that it was fixed, as it seemed they said all houses had them now.

Sorry for the confusion

[Kronibas]

The only inconsistency that mildly bugs me is that some Houses have orderable item lists posted on the GDB for not only family members but also grunt level dudes while others do not have item lists for either, anywhere.

This inconsistency was rectified.

Sorry for the double post but no. Unless this was very very recent. Kadius has no such list for the pc's in Kadius, and to my knowledge the st's still need to manually search the database for each item.

I wrote that some Houses have had lists for orderable items, and that is true.  I didn't say Kadius does, but at least one House does did.

I was referring to the gentleman that posted that it was fixed, as it seemed they said all houses had them now.

Sorry for the confusion

Nod, I interpreted what he (she?)  said to mean that the ones that did have lists no longer have lists.