Re: Weapon skills improvement

[Kismetic]

I hope you guys don't make it easier to raise weapon skills arbitrarily, because once you've mastered everything, weapon skills pretty much keep you going (in a goal-based sense of playing, which I will admit, I do).

However, you do reach a point where you can only skill fail on things that are absurdly dangerous.  Spoon's idea of a TINY twink to critical fail is cool.

[Hot_Dancer]

Cool thread. I wish I could change my vote to yes.

I had a 100dish warrior go without ever branching his primary weapon skill despite regular skill usage.

[Kismetic]

I should probably clarify, though, that my goal may not be to branch (though branching is fun), but perhaps, do X, which requires skill Y

[Sunburned]

I hope you guys don't make it easier to raise weapon skills arbitrarily, because once you've mastered everything, weapon skills pretty much keep you going (in a goal-based sense of playing, which I will admit, I do).

However, you do reach a point where you can only skill fail on things that are absurdly dangerous.  Spoon's idea of a TINY twink to critical fail is cool.

For me, Its not about making it easier.  Its about making it even possible to improve a weapon skill past JM or Advanced.  If the code was changed, but it required 50 days of playtime to max out a weapon skill, I'd still be happy with the change.

[brytta.leofa]

The fact that you can now throw 2 CGP onto a weapon skill (but not onto base offense) might make things a little more tractable.

[Kismetic]

Believe me, I feel your pain.  It already sucks enough that for karma, a random newblet PC can twink off/def and have what another person slaved for months over, but it's not like CGP is cheap.  Where I think the problem lies though, is you can reach a point where you say "Okay, screw it, I'll just be proficient with these other weapons," only to find you can hardly miss with a novice weapon skill.

All I will say, without revealing IC info, it is possible to fail, just difficult and dangerous.

Don't take away my Hardcore setting pretty please?  

edit @ brytta:  It kinda bugs me you can raise a weapon skill over apprentice.  But then, getting to apprentice isn't all that hard, so I guess it's gotta be worth something.

[Bacon]

I hope you guys don't make it easier to raise weapon skills arbitrarily, because once you've mastered everything, weapon skills pretty much keep you going (in a goal-based sense of playing, which I will admit, I do).

However, you do reach a point where you can only skill fail on things that are absurdly dangerous.  Spoon's idea of a TINY twink to critical fail is cool.

For me, Its not about making it easier.  Its about making it even possible to improve a weapon skill past JM or Advanced.  If the code was changed, but it required 50 days of playtime to max out a weapon skill, I'd still be happy with the change.

I think 40-50 days of play should be more than enough to max out any character without having to grind like mad. That really isn't possible right now without a lot of grinding and even then it's not really possible with weapon skills. I'm talking in 40-50 days, a warrior pc should be able to have their primary weapon skill mastered and well on their way to a second one whether or not that is one of the starters or the ones they branched. Pretty much every other guild can have their primary skills mastered by 40 days if not less for some. Not so for weapon skills.

[Sunburned]

Believe me, I feel your pain.  It already sucks enough that for karma, a random newblet PC can twink off/def and have what another person slaved for months over, but it's not like CGP is cheap.  Where I think the problem lies though, is you can reach a point where you say "Okay, screw it, I'll just be proficient with these other weapons," only to find you can hardly miss with a novice weapon skill.

All I will say, without revealing IC info, it is possible to fail, just difficult and dangerous.

Don't take away my Hardcore setting pretty please?  

edit @ brytta:  It kinda bugs me you can raise a weapon skill over apprentice.  But then, getting to apprentice isn't all that hard, so I guess it's gotta be worth something.

I think you're cherishing your meta-gaming knowledge more than the hardship of earning an advanced weapon skill.

Either way, when the ability to progress with a weapon skill is relegated to combat with a handful of mobs, its not all inclusive or balanced - militia characters and other roles which demand play within specific regions of the world are at a much greater disadvantage to advance those skills than others in more favorable locations/clans.

[Sunburned]

I hope you guys don't make it easier to raise weapon skills arbitrarily, because once you've mastered everything, weapon skills pretty much keep you going (in a goal-based sense of playing, which I will admit, I do).

However, you do reach a point where you can only skill fail on things that are absurdly dangerous.  Spoon's idea of a TINY twink to critical fail is cool.

For me, Its not about making it easier.  Its about making it even possible to improve a weapon skill past JM or Advanced.  If the code was changed, but it required 50 days of playtime to max out a weapon skill, I'd still be happy with the change.

I think 40-50 days of play should be more than enough to max out any character without having to grind like mad. That really isn't possible right now without a lot of grinding and even then it's not really possible with weapon skills. I'm talking in 40-50 days, a warrior pc should be able to have their primary weapon skill mastered and well on their way to a second one whether or not that is one of the starters or the ones they branched. Pretty much every other guild can have their primary skills mastered by 40 days if not less for some. Not so for weapon skills.

Agreed.

[Flawed]

I am a bit confused.

Are we talking about weapon skill improvement, or weapon skill improvement for WARRIORS? I suppose it is more important for warriors due to branching more weapon skills.

Not sure how it would impact upon the rangers. But since the throw/archery change, personally, I feel assassin pc is slightly more dependent on the combat skills. I do not feel it made as much a difference in combat as others made it out to be? Weapon skill at advanced level and weapon skill at maxed master level seems so similar that I noticed almost no real difference on two different types of weapon skill category, if there is any at all. Perhaps it is more important for warriors because their skill caps are higher?

Pssst, it is hard enough to pk a warrior already. Why make it any easier for warrior to train up. Weapon skills don't help assassins too much. We can max our weapon skills fine! Of course, it helps that there isn't nearly as many weapon skills to max...

[Yam]

Warriors are really the only ones that run into the weapon skill not increasing problem because the other classes don't get the chance to get weapon skills that high, and don't have other things going for their class that makes it impossible to get weapon skill failures.

[Sunburned]

I am a bit confused.

Are we talking about weapon skill improvement, or weapon skill improvement for WARRIORS? I suppose it is more important for warriors due to branching more weapon skills.

Not sure how it would impact upon the rangers. But since the throw/archery change, personally, I feel assassin pc is slightly more dependent on the combat skills. I do not feel it made as much a difference in combat as others made it out to be? Weapon skill at advanced level and weapon skill at maxed master level seems so similar that I noticed almost no real difference on two different types of weapon skill category, if there is any at all. Perhaps it is more important for warriors because their skill caps are higher?

Pssst, it is hard enough to pk a warrior already. Why make it any easier for warrior to train up. Weapon skills don't help assassins too much. We can max our weapon skills fine! Of course, it helps that there isn't nearly as many weapon skills to max...

Bolded the insightful part.

But again, for me, this isn't about making it EASIER for warriors to train weapon skills - its about making it POSSIBLE.  

And I think you underestimate the importance of weapon skills for assassins.

[Flawed]

I only ever bother to skill up with assassins. So I do not know how it reflects on rangers or warriors combat.

While weapon skills are important, after you toss in the complexity that is ginka, it simply pales in importance. I will take def/off over weapon skill any day of the week.

Sure I think I might have noticed a slight difference between journeyman weapon skill level and master weapon skill level. But it could well just be the increase in def/off.

It takes 30-40 playing days to max up one weapon skill, and then another 30-40 playing days to begin and finish trainning up a second weapon skill. Not neglecting rp.

It is possible to train up the weapon skills right now, just super difficult for warriors to get in the last 10 ranks of a weapon skill?

I guess I'd be all for easier weapon skill trainning if I actually play warriors. Since I do not, and it is possible to raise weapon skills, I am all for no.

While other combat classes are getting nerfed (hey, in my humble opinion, it's a nerf), warriors shouldn't get things easy either!

[Karieith]

I don't know enough about the trickity tricks (in fact I do not know them at all) involved in getting epic offense/defense and amazing weapon skills. But, I think it would be nice if you learned a bit from succeeding, as was suggested, and if training with your fellow clannies provided you an option towards mastery. I understand that clannie training is safer, so maybe it should take longer, but it shouldn't be impossible. :/

[Lizzie]

I don't know enough about the trickity tricks (in fact I do not know them at all) involved in getting epic offense/defense and amazing weapon skills. But, I think it would be nice if you learned a bit from succeeding, as was suggested, and if training with your fellow clannies provided you an option towards mastery. I understand that clannie training is safer, so maybe it should take longer, but it shouldn't be impossible. :/

Clannie training with sparring weapons shouldn't give you mastery over anything at all. Pretending to try to kill someone, and intentionally using weapons that are designed to -not- kill someone..in a supervised controlled environment, does not make you an expert at anything -except- at how to spar. Sparring is not a coded skill. Using a blunted dagger doesn't give you mastery over pierced weapons because - you're not really using a pierced weapon. Using a light-weight club doesn't give you mastery over smashing someone's skull in, because - it's not heavy enough. Likewise, shooting arrows at an archery dummy should not teach you how to master shooting at a moving target while you're standing knee-deep in grass and ritikki shit. It can teach you how to hold the bow, how to pull an arrow, the basic techniques of aiming..and that's pretty much it.

As someone who plays a lot of rangers, and rarely skills up with any kind of speed, I'll say that weapon skills move just about how I feel they should. Granted, I'd LOVE it if I could get my weapons skills to budge just a little faster. But it doesn't break me that they're pokey to go up. As Nyr said, the expertise of a ranger does not lie in weapons skills. It lies in archery, and in stealth/perception/riding.
Archery is expensive to start out with but if you get good enough, you can handle pretty much anything with just a couple of arrows.
And when you're that good, then anything that takes more than just a couple of arrows, SHOULD take more than just a couple of arrows.


Edited to add: if you're in a coded clan and hired because you can/want to use a bow, then you should be talking to your clan boss ICly about them paying for your arrows or providing someone to make them for you.

[Is Friday]

As a martial arts instructor and student of martial arts for several years I'm going to strongly disagree with your assessment of sparring being ineffective for taking someone to mastery. Stupidly getting yourself injured by engaging in life-or-death fights is going to kill your skill progression long before you get anything useful of it, but hey, it's a game.

[Karieith]

As a martial arts instructor and student of martial arts for several years I'm going to strongly disagree with your assessment of sparring being ineffective for taking someone to mastery. Stupidly getting yourself injured by engaging in life-or-death fights is going to kill your skill progression long before you get anything useful of it, but hey, it's a game.

[Malken]

Clannie training with sparring weapons shouldn't give you mastery over anything at all. Pretending to try to kill someone, and intentionally using weapons that are designed to -not- kill someone..in a supervised controlled environment, does not make you an expert at anything -except- at how to spar.

Are you saying that Spartacus lied to me? 

[Riev]

Having played other classes than Warrior, I still feel there is some issue with HOW the skillups go. Strictly speaking, the issue lies in the offense, and defense, of PCs as a whole.

If you're in a clan with someone, there are a lot of factors to decide if they are a "suitable" training partner for your weapon skills. When I played Creek, I did a LOT of not even "maybe" twinky stuff, I  twinked VERY hard, and it took me about 60d to finally branch a weapon skill. (with poor/BA wisdom)

His offense ended up being so high, that he rarely missed on anything. ANYTHING. So while he could raise the defense of his clannies, his other skills were sort of stagnated. Its a very frustrating position.




That said, I agree that PCs with branched weapon skills are like sorcerors, and it shows the PC has taken the time (usually) to build a character as well as a guild. Very rarely do I see a PC with an advanced weapon skill, that I think RPs or emotes like a 5yr old.