So You Want to Talk Stats?

[Jeshin]

Yet another thread is now open to clear up the RAT thread. If you want to discuss the perceived balance or imbalance of stats and it's effects on combat post-smirk-inducing-wrist-wear here you go!

[Synthesis]

Best warrior I ever had was prioritized agility/wisdom/strength/endurance.  It didn't suck.

[Cutthroat]

Well, the whole point of prioritizing stats during character generation is... to prioritize. So we prioritize strength if we want the benefits of strength, endurance if we want the benefits of endurance, agility if we want the benefits of agility, and wisdom if we want the benefits of wisdom.

Certain stats may be more important than others in certain aspects of combat, stealth, or other parts of the game, but ultimately one will find some kind of advantage to a stat being higher than others, regardless of the specific stat. As a fighter, arguably every stat is important in one way or another. What ends up being the most important stat in combat depends on how you play your character, and the myriad variables that arise when playing a character - equipment, style, skills, etc.

It's far more productive to figure out how to best play with the hand one is dealt, stat-wise, rather than lament the lack of a high stat that one absolutely believes he needs.

[Bacon]

I just think endurance should have more visible impact than it does to different aspects of the game. Otherwise, I think it's all good.

[Celest]

I'll just say what I said in the other thread about endurance, but summarized:

In terms of play-ability, the direct benefit gained by high endurance (HPs) is largely mitigated by the fact that the non-regeneration floor's percentage does not change, and so it's very plausible that you can have more HPs than someone who is uninjured or lightly injured (90, 80, 70, etc.), but be considered severely injured and will no longer regenerate. Strength and agility both grant direct combat bonuses to defense and offense, while endurance only grants defensive bonuses directly. Not to mention that the practical benefit of endurance's HP bonus is very dependent on the effectiveness of your armor (str) or your defensive skills (agi). Any offensive bonuses gained through endurance (if there are any) seem indirect and certainly aren't listed in help endurance, such as through skills or living longer. It seems as if str/agi aren't very reliant on endurance for effectiveness, while endurance relies heavily on str/agi (or even wisdom) for it's effectiveness.

Someone with high endurance but low strength is also worse at enduring the encumbrance of heavy armor than someone with high strength, which seems to run contrary to the very definition at endurance. Yes, someone who is strong should be able to lift things better, but when it comes to something that must be 'toughed out' for long periods on end (heavy armor), endurance makes more sense than strength. While endurance clearly does effect a lot of behind-the-scenes things as laid out in the help file, pretty much everyone recommends prioritizing str/agi for fightery types for a number or reasons, or even str/agi/wis over it. Whether this is due to the rarity of the behind-the-scenes stuff, or due to the other ways to counteract the behind-the-scenes stuff, or because you might only ever get one shot for endurance to roll against the behind-the-scenes stuff, or due to a lack of general effectiveness, I can't say, but it definitely seems like endurance is generally considered by most players to be a poor choice to prioritize.

[musashi]

That's not the case, Celest.

I don't want to give away sekrit stuff by going into detail but suffice to say that, having played characters who were able to raise and lower their max HP, I noticed that the "non-regeneration floor percentage" as you put it, changed along with the max-HP level.

[Bacon]

That's not the case, Celest.

I don't want to give away sekrit stuff by going into detail but suffice to say that, having played characters who were able to raise and lower their max HP, I noticed that the "non-regeneration floor percentage" as you put it, changed along with the max-HP level.

What he said.

[Celest]

That's not the case, Celest.

I don't want to give away sekrit stuff by going into detail but suffice to say that, having played characters who were able to raise and lower their max HP, I noticed that the "non-regeneration floor percentage" as you put it, changed along with the max-HP level.

Maybe it occurs with people who can raise/lower their max HP, but on my last PC who had naturally high HPs, the percentage was still approximately the same as PCs who had naturally low HPs, and it resulted in that floor being at approximately the same as the low-HP character's max HPs. If there is a difference, it's certainly not noticeable... Maybe a 5% difference between poor to exceptional by natural means.

Edit: It's also possible that the difference between naturally high and naturally low HPs, while fairly significant, is not significant enough to equal that of super-sekrit high HPs and thus the small percentage of difference is much more noticeable among Super Sekrit HPs than it is among natural endurance HPs. I did see someone say they had over 200 HPs as their highest before, and so if that's the scope of super sekrit HPs, a difference which may be unnoticeable at the natural range may be much more noticeable there.

[Case]

I think Celest is saying that the percentage that the floor is derived from could change, based on the following:

PC with 100 hp, arbitrary regen floor of 50% = floor of 50hp
PC with 200 hp, arbitrary regen floor of 50% = floor of 100hp

I think the regen floor may shift a little, but it does create this divide where a more HP'd character cannot regenerate what is the healthy equivalent of a less HP'd PC due to ratio. This is a problem with the HP system in general, trying to work out what each current/max health point actually means for a character.

[Synthesis]

If you're half-dead, you're half-dead...whether that's 50 hp or 100hp.  I don't see what the big deal is.

[musashi]

Like I said, I don't want to get into it in more detail since it treds on some things that are absolutely not cool for the general GDB discussion, but the change is there.

And the change might very likely be layered. I mean, there are several different ranges of HP regeneration in the game.

Get hurt a little ... you can regen it up while walking around town.
Get hurt a little more ... you have to sit down to heal it up.
Get hurt a little more ... you have to rest to heal it up.
Get hurt a lot ... you need to sleep to heal it up.

All of these different levels are based on a different percentage of your character's max HP. And some might change more drastically than others depending on your endurance stat.

If you're saying that you believe it doesn't change enough, well ... alright. That's your opinion and that's cool. But to say that it doesn't change, would be factually inaccurate.

[Case]

If you're half-dead, you're half-dead...whether that's 50 hp or 100hp.  I don't see what the big deal is.

hey man, if health worked like this RL, you'd be out of the job

[Synthesis]

musashi, you're one of those dudes who has played for 10 years but only had 3 PCs, aren't you?

The floor is ~55% of your max hp.  Once you get below that you have to sleep or bandage.  There is no sit range, or rest range, and that threshold percentage never changes.

If you're half-dead, you're half-dead...whether that's 50 hp or 100hp.  I don't see what the big deal is.

hey man, if health worked like this RL, you'd be out of the job

Think of it this way:  you have 5L of blood, and a half-giant has 10L.  Just because the half-giant has 5L left after getting bitten by a mekillot doesn't mean he's just as healthy as a woundless human.  The system really does make more sense than having an absolute cutoff point that is universal for all hp maximums.

[Case]

If you're half-dead, you're half-dead...whether that's 50 hp or 100hp.  I don't see what the big deal is.

hey man, if health worked like this RL, you'd be out of the job

Think of it this way:  you have 5L of blood, and a half-giant has 10L.  Just because the half-giant has 5L left after getting bitten by a mekillot doesn't mean he's just as healthy as a woundless human.  The system really does make more sense than having an absolute cutoff point that is universal for all hp maximums.

I agree. But it depends on what a health point is. If it's quantity of blood, cool. If it's amount of physical drive to push on, no.

[Celest]

If you're half-dead, you're half-dead...whether that's 50 hp or 100hp.  I don't see what the big deal is.

The issue is that your "half dead" is still tougher than someone's "unharmed," so why does the game treat it as if one is on the verge of death? It's a flaw with the HP system in general, but I don't see why penalizing people who prioritize endurance or have concepts where endurance is a large part because of a code limitation that can be easily changed.

And the change might very likely be layered. I mean, there are several different ranges of HP regeneration in the game.

Get hurt a little ... you can regen it up while walking around town.
Get hurt a little more ... you have to sit down to heal it up.
Get hurt a little more ... you have to rest to heal it up.
Get hurt a lot ... you need to sleep to heal it up.

That has never been my experience with how the health system works in game, ever. Are you sure we're both playing the same MUD?

[Synthesis]

The game treats you as if you're on the verge of death because you -are- on the verge of death.

If you don't want to RP it like that, that's your problem, not the game's.

[BleakOne]

I agree with Synth on this. A super-tough PC may still take more to kill than a normal person even after getting hacked in the head with an axe, but he's still been hacked in the head with an axe, and will need more than a sit down to recover.

Someone who has lost around half their hp would be pretty messed up, even if they still have more HP than a normal person on healthy.

[Celest]

The game treats you as if you're on the verge of death because you -are- on the verge of death.

If you don't want to RP it like that, that's your problem, not the game's.

But if you're "on the verge of death" but can still handle a beating better than someone who is completely unwounded then yes, it's a problem with the game and how it classifies "on the verge of death." Especially since it's a fairly arbitrary number that only makes any sense because of the simplicity of the HP system.

Trying to act like the regeneration code and endurance are perfect and the problem is with how people RP it (or, as you put it, how I RP it) is absolutely asinine, and not to mention more than a little insulting. You even admitted earlier that your best PC ever prioritized endurance last. The imms will even suggest that fightery types prioritize str/agi on a fightery type if you want to make sure you come out decent.

[Bacon]

I'm with the others that think it makes sense the way it is in that regard and I believe it would make less sense the way you believe it should be. A half-dead person is a half-dead person, period. Higher endurance means it will take more damage to get to half-dead than it will take one with lower endurance but it still doesn't change the fact that they are half-dead regardless of if half-dead for them is more hp or not.

[Is Friday]

The whole basis for your argument is just plain wrong, Celest. You very clearly do not have a finely tuned understanding of how the code actually works, and you're grasping at straws with very limited experience.

Of course a half-giant is going to be tougher to kill at all stages of his HP bar, whether he be excellent/poor/near death. Why is that? Because they can take more punishment than a human.

[hyzhenhok]

The game treats you as if you're on the verge of death because you -are- on the verge of death.

If you don't want to RP it like that, that's your problem, not the game's.

But if you're "on the verge of death" but can still handle a beating better than someone who is completely unwounded then yes, it's a problem with the game and how it classifies "on the verge of death." Especially since it's a fairly arbitrary number that only makes any sense because of the simplicity of the HP system.

Trying to act like the regeneration code and endurance are perfect and the problem is with how people RP it (or, as you put it, how I RP it) is absolutely asinine, and not to mention more than a little insulting. You even admitted earlier that your best PC ever prioritized endurance last. The imms will even suggest that fightery types prioritize str/agi on a fightery type if you want to make sure you come out decent.

It works perfectly fine and makes perfect sense. William Wallace will last longer than poncy Prince Edward while having his entrails torn out and put on display--he has more hitpoints total. But he's still on the verge of death.

[musashi]

musashi, you're one of those dudes who has played for 10 years but only had 3 PCs, aren't you?

The floor is ~55% of your max hp.  Once you get below that you have to sleep or bandage.  There is no sit range, or rest range, and that threshold percentage never changes.

Um ... really? My experience has been that if I loose ... oh to pick completely random numbers ... 5  of my 100 HP, I can regen that back without having to do anything. It's automagick.

If I lose say ... 35 of my 100 HP ... I will not heal that back unless I codedly rest. Then the normal regen kicks in.

If I lose say ... 85 of my 100 HP ... I will not heal that back unless I codedly sleep. Then the normal regen kicks in.

You're saying that's wrong? I call BS 

[BleakOne]

I've never had to rest to regain. It's either sleep, or normal regen.

I'm still fairly newb though.

[Bacon]

I've never had to rest to regain. It's either sleep, or normal regen.

Yeah, it's been my experience that you regen (resting or not) until the point that you need to sleep to regen.

[Synthesis]

musashi, you're one of those dudes who has played for 10 years but only had 3 PCs, aren't you?

The floor is ~55% of your max hp.  Once you get below that you have to sleep or bandage.  There is no sit range, or rest range, and that threshold percentage never changes.

Um ... really? My experience has been that if I loose ... oh to pick completely random numbers ... 5  of my 100 HP, I can regen that back without having to do anything. It's automagick.

If I lose say ... 35 of my 100 HP ... I will not heal that back unless I codedly rest. Then the normal regen kicks in.

If I lose say ... 85 of my 100 HP ... I will not heal that back unless I codedly sleep. Then the normal regen kicks in.

You're saying that's wrong? I call BS 

lol noob