Movement and regeneration

[Incognito]

There are many posts on the subject of movement points, and the unrealistic-ness of Zalanthans being able to run or ride throughout the length and breadth of the Known World with such ease. One improvement along these lines has been the tweak in movement point utilization vis-a-vis encumbrance.

With the increasingly popular shift towards realism in-game, here's a more fleshed out option:

Suggestion:
a) Movement point utilization tweaked slightly upwards.

b) Introduction of campfires - which when lit, will allow everyone in the room, to regen movement points at an accelerated pace.
You sit down and rest your tired bones.
You use your burning wooden torch to light a campfire.
You feel the flames filling you up with a warmth.
<Movement regeneration occurs>

c) Rooms with campfires will ward off *some* NPCs (beasts) - (but probably may actually attract other kinds of NPCs like Gith?)
A potbellied-gurth wanders in from the east.
A potbellied-gurth gets startled by the fire and flees to the north.

A hulking mekillot wanders in from the east.
A hulking mekillot gets startled by the fire and attacks!

d) Rooms with campfires will attract NPCs (beasts) to the adjoining rooms, if they were within a certain perimeter of the campfire to begin with.
The drab-yellow gith runs in yelling from the east.

e) Introduction of an extra skill or subset of existing skill - Scan Zone - which will basically allows people to view the horizon for flames (the effectivity and area of detection can be dependent on time of day).
You scan the horizon.
You can make out:
A campfire to the north
A campfire far to the north
A campfire very far to the west
A campfire to the extremely far western direction
A campfire in the distant eastern direction
(Of course the grid of detection in the 4 cardinal directions, and the definitions of the relative messages will have to be fleshed out)


Possible results:
a) Difficulty to traverse the Known World gets tweaked to a more realistic level.
b) Campfires allow players an easy and quick solution to regen movement points.
c) Detection of campfires from afar provides new ways of interacting with PCs (or avoiding them).
d) Magickal travel becomes more realistically vital/effective/life-saving.
e) Shift to traveling in numbers for safety (more interaction among PCs).
f) Decrease in lone travelers unrealistically taking off into the wilderness on their own, on long journeys.
g) Increase in dependence on guards/guides for long journeys, specially for guilds who realistically might not be able to successfully undertake such perilous travels on their own.
h) Of course we already have tents - which basically perform the same function (in a sense), but at this stage I am not sure how they'd figure in, into this idea.
i) Increased dependence and usage of wagons and argosies.
j) More people sticking to paved roads - which again increases chances of interaction - but also increases dangers from lurking NPCs (which are currently circumvented due to so many alternative travel routes through more difficult terrain).

What's the general feeling on this? Do we need some sort of realistic tweak to being able to travel around the Known World? Or are we happy with the usual 2 rest-stop trip from the Ivory to the Black?

It doesn't have to be to such an extent that playability becomes an issue especially for players with limited play time ending up being bogged down with travel burdens.

I personally do feel we need a correction (however minor), so as to actually make transporting materials less easy, and also to increase the novelty, usefulness and importance of magickal travel.

In short - a "trip to Luirs" or a "ride to Allanak" shouldn't be something to be taken lightly - by the lay Zalanthan, unless they are experienced enough and able enough to survive it on their own.

Even though this topic has been discussed ad-nauseam in the past, I still like to take time to revisit this idea from time to time, and will appreciate the sentiment of the current Arm Community.

[Marauder Moe]

I honestly like the idea of long/epic travel that really does require a lot of planning and time and could span several play sessions.  I like the idea of it being a real accomplishment, and the necessity of being apart from civilization for an extended period.

However, there are several technical and systematic problems that likely make such an idea unfeasible for Arm 1 or even MUDs in general.

Firstly, there's just two ways to increase travel time:
1) Increase the number of rooms between locations.
2) Increase movement delay.

The problem with #1 is that it would increase the world size exponentially.  There's no way that all those rooms could receive proper hand-written detail, and you'd end up with thousands of generic/copied room names and descriptions, which would hamper navigation.  Also, I'm not sure what/if there are world size limits in Diku.

The problem with #2 is how significantly increased movement delays interact with other systems.  It doesn't make sense that I can see something 3 rooms away, but it'll take me 5-15 minutes to actually get there.  It makes even less sense (or at least a playability imbalance) when people start shooting arrows from that distance.


tl;dr - I think this is a great idea but largely unfeasible for Armageddon/MUDs.   

[Bacon]

I think it's fine the way it is. The game is already heavily time consuming to play it at all. This would make it even more time consuming and force players to spend more of what time they have to play doing things besides interacting with other players. Players tend to all go afk while resting or idle while resting during travel anyway so I don't see that adding more time onto this period would be adding anything positive to the game. I wouldn't mind more flushed out code regarding campfires and visibility though.

[Synthesis]

Why would a hot-ass campfire refresh you on a desert planet where the daytime temperature regularly exceeds 130F?

However, I am ALL for expanding zone sizes.  Most of the wilderness zones in the MUD you can have eyes-on virtually every single room in the zone by making 3 or 4 passes through, which makes the Known World seem pathetically small.

[EldritchOrigins]

I like the idea of using some mechanism to refresh mount stamina points.  Maybe instead of a fire, water could help mounts recover more quickly.  Another idea is for some sort of portable shelter that could be used to get mounts out of the weather.

[Bacon]

I think adding the ability to water mounts to help them regen stamina faster would be cool.

[Synthesis]

I think adding the ability to water mounts to help them regen stamina faster would be cool.

If you're having problems with mount stamina, move slower and rest more.

[Bacon]

I think adding the ability to water mounts to help them regen stamina faster would be cool.

If you're having problems with mount stamina, move slower and rest more.

Most of the time I don't but it seems like now and then my mount spawns with horrible stats and suddenly it gets tired much much faster. I move plenty slow as it is. I stop to look in all directions with every room as well as sometimes pausing for emotes, thinks, etc.

[lussien]

I think how the mechanics now is just fine. Some people cannot stay for the whole session cause maybe they're called for work or etc. I realize that the known world map is a very big square. xD

Of course, there might be sekrit places that I don't know about.

[Synthesis]

I think adding the ability to water mounts to help them regen stamina faster would be cool.

If you're having problems with mount stamina, move slower and rest more.

Most of the time I don't but it seems like now and then my mount spawns with horrible stats and suddenly it gets tired much much faster. I move plently slow as it is. I stop to look in all directions with every room as well as sometimes pausing for emotes, thinks, etc.

Well, you see, the trick is to rest your mount while you're taking your time.

[EldritchOrigins]

I think adding the ability to water mounts to help them regen stamina faster would be cool.

If you're having problems with mount stamina, move slower and rest more.

Most of the time I don't but it seems like now and then my mount spawns with horrible stats and suddenly it gets tired much much faster. I move plently slow as it is. I stop to look in all directions with every room as well as sometimes pausing for emotes, thinks, etc.

Well, you see, the trick is to rest your mount while you're taking your time.

Yeah, but the OP is also suggesting mounts tire more easily/faster.  In that case resting and taking one's time would be less effective because the mounts would need more.

[Bacon]

I think adding the ability to water mounts to help them regen stamina faster would be cool.

If you're having problems with mount stamina, move slower and rest more.

Most of the time I don't but it seems like now and then my mount spawns with horrible stats and suddenly it gets tired much much faster. I move plently slow as it is. I stop to look in all directions with every room as well as sometimes pausing for emotes, thinks, etc.

Well, you see, the trick is to rest your mount while you're taking your time.

I do. I'm not sure what exactly you are trying to get at. Are you suggesting that I rest my mount every couple of rooms or something? If so, that's silly.

[Barsook]

I say we don't need this in Arm1.

[Kaiden]

I remember asking someone to tell me when they would arrive safely from Allanak to Tuluk.

They wayed me back maybe 10 minutes later saying they had arrived.

That was sort of a bummer.

[Lizzie]

I remember asking someone to tell me when they would arrive safely from Allanak to Tuluk.

They wayed me back maybe 10 minutes later saying they had arrived.

That was sort of a bummer.

I know I've done that to people several times with various characters. I might be on my way already. And I might have my barrier up..and someone breaks it asking "let me know when you get to Tuluk."

And I just won't answer them, because I'm too busy putting my barrier up and riding. I might already be at the span, getting ready to ride through a posse of smelly gortoks and their vile sorcerous masters. Anyone who's expecting a response at this point, is just going to have to be shit outta luck.

And then, I'm in the city, my mount is stabled, I have all my stuff in my inventory including a bag full of very heavy hides that's making me "unbelievably heavy" so it's a good time to sit down and way the guy and say "Already here, boss."

[Synthesis]

I think adding the ability to water mounts to help them regen stamina faster would be cool.

If you're having problems with mount stamina, move slower and rest more.

Most of the time I don't but it seems like now and then my mount spawns with horrible stats and suddenly it gets tired much much faster. I move plently slow as it is. I stop to look in all directions with every room as well as sometimes pausing for emotes, thinks, etc.

Well, you see, the trick is to rest your mount while you're taking your time.

I do. I'm not sure what exactly you are trying to get at. Are you suggesting that I rest my mount every couple of rooms or something? If so, that's silly.

Is it silly?  Or is it a wise idea in a world where running out of stamina could be the end of you?

[musashi]

I don't mind the system as it's currently laid out. I think the zone sizes, and the rate at which one loses and regens stamina are fine; but I can empathize with the idea that travel between the two city states (or travel through the wastes in general) is just too easy and needs to be more difficult.

I empathize, I really do ... but ... I think the problem is more in the mind of the players.

What I mean is: Armageddon is a small community and a good portion of the people playing have been playing for at least a year or more. But remember when you were a newbie and you were actually worried about the great unknown that is the world outside the city states? Remember when you were walking along with your character exploring and all of a sudden BAM ... whacked dead by some hidden aggro critter?

My opinion is: It's not that the world is any less dangerous than it used to be, it's that a large chunk of the player-base just knows their way around the coded dangers well enough that they can take a 0 days played merchant from one end of the Known to the other.

But please keep in mind that the game is still scary for the noobs who haven't yet got every zone mapped out along with all the spawn points and rest-stops. You're a grizzled old vet now ... you have to "pretend" to be scared for the sake of keeping up appearances.

[Bacon]

I think adding the ability to water mounts to help them regen stamina faster would be cool.

If you're having problems with mount stamina, move slower and rest more.

Most of the time I don't but it seems like now and then my mount spawns with horrible stats and suddenly it gets tired much much faster. I move plently slow as it is. I stop to look in all directions with every room as well as sometimes pausing for emotes, thinks, etc.

Well, you see, the trick is to rest your mount while you're taking your time.

I do. I'm not sure what exactly you are trying to get at. Are you suggesting that I rest my mount every couple of rooms or something? If so, that's silly.

Is it silly?  Or is it a wise idea in a world where running out of stamina could be the end of you?

From a playability standpoint it is silly. I don't know a single pc I've ever seen that does this.

[evilcabbage]

I do it because I like my mount to not be completely exhausted in case the meks come cabbage hunting.

[Iiyola]

I don't mind the system as it's currently laid out. I think the zone sizes, and the rate at which one loses and regens stamina are fine; but I can empathize with the idea that travel between the two city states (or travel through the wastes in general) is just too easy and needs to be more difficult.

I empathize, I really do ... but ... I think the problem is more in the mind of the players.

What I mean is: Armageddon is a small community and a good portion of the people playing have been playing for at least a year or more. But remember when you were a newbie and you were actually worried about the great unknown that is the world outside the city states? Remember when you were walking along with your character exploring and all of a sudden BAM ... whacked dead by some hidden aggro critter?

My opinion is: It's not that the world is any less dangerous than it used to be, it's that a large chunk of the player-base just knows their way around the coded dangers well enough that they can take a 0 days played merchant from one end of the Known to the other.

But please keep in mind that the game is still scary for the noobs who haven't yet got every zone mapped out along with all the spawn points and rest-stops. You're a grizzled old vet now ... you have to "pretend" to be scared for the sake of keeping up appearances.

Yes yes yes YES! As a fairly new player (been playing around 3/4 months now) I can say I was scared shitless to go outside the city walls. Heard stories IG and OOC and yes, it wasn't hard to emote how scared my char was since it was for both of us the first time we'd set foot outside the walls.

I literally thought there would be attacks from each and every side of the desert, had NO idea how my stats would be affected by this new terrain and well... it was just an exciting experience.

To me it's scary as it is. Having a fire attract more deadly animals would be too much for me, personally.

[Krishnamurti]

To me it's scary as it is. Having a fire attract more deadly animals would be too much for me, personally.

It's scary, and you're right to roleplay it as scary.

I believe the option is there for more experienced players who can navigate the known world to ROLE PLAY. Sure, you've played the game for years, you know every nook and cranny. But there's plenty of people who haven't, and who die repeatedly while they're learning. The desert is pretty unforgiving -- and god forbid you get a hostile PC or two on you while you're out there. I don't think you'd be whining much about things being easy then. The key to that though is to make the world easier for players to cause trouble in the wastes, not harder. I'd rather PC on PC violence than an automated meat grinder out there.

Just please role play. Spamming Nak to Tuluk in 10 minutes is the equivalent of spam stealing. Be ashamed.

[roughneck]

To me it's scary as it is. Having a fire attract more deadly animals would be too much for me, personally.

It's scary, and you're right to roleplay it as scary.

I believe the option is there for more experienced players who can navigate the known world to ROLE PLAY. Sure, you've played the game for years, you know every nook and cranny. But there's plenty of people who haven't, and who die repeatedly while they're learning. The desert is pretty unforgiving -- and god forbid you get a hostile PC or two on you while you're out there. I don't think you'd be whining much about things being easy then. The key to that though is to make the world easier for players to cause trouble in the wastes, not harder. I'd rather PC on PC violence than an automated meat grinder out there.

Just please role play. Spamming Nak to Tuluk in 10 minutes is the equivalent of spam stealing. Be ashamed.

It's pretty easy to cause trouble in the wastes.  Ridiculously easy, albeit dangerous, as it should be.

[DustMight]

I think adding the ability to water mounts to help them regen stamina faster would be cool.

If you're having problems with mount stamina, move slower and rest more.

Most of the time I don't but it seems like now and then my mount spawns with horrible stats and suddenly it gets tired much much faster. I move plently slow as it is. I stop to look in all directions with every room as well as sometimes pausing for emotes, thinks, etc.

Well, you see, the trick is to rest your mount while you're taking your time.

I do. I'm not sure what exactly you are trying to get at. Are you suggesting that I rest my mount every couple of rooms or something? If so, that's silly.

Is it silly?  Or is it a wise idea in a world where running out of stamina could be the end of you?

From a playability standpoint it is silly. I don't know a single pc I've ever seen that does this.

Disagree.  If there's a playability standpoint it might be blinding sandstorms and random movement (mostly solved with subguild direction sense), but resting a mount frequently isn't an issue.  Actually forcing one to slow down gives opportunity for RP and makes the world appear as large as it actually is.  If you are traveling 'nak to Luir's in one shot (not saying you are) you are going too fast.  One overnight is usual but would be nice if it were two.  It should take time.  Same with all the other routes out there.

[Bacon]

It's too short to take more than a day. It should be codedly longer if that's how long it's supposed to take. The code tells me that it isn't that long of a trip. The code outlines the area we are supposed to rp in. I flatly refuse to spend that much time sitting around and solo rping or doing nothing at all just to satisfy someone else's opinion on how long the trip should take when the code does not support their opinion of it.

[musashi]

Heh. On another MUD I used to play a long, long time ago the staff just put signs outside the city gates that displayed how much time traveling from one settlement to the next would take since no matter how big they made the zones people would try spam travel through them.

So the new rule became something like: Fine. Spam travel from one settlement to the next, but then you have to stay in that settlement until all that travel time has past before you can go anywhere else.

[AmandaGreathouse]

I was just thinking, too: This is all fine and good until the rez requests and complaints go rolling in and start peppering the boards, because it already seems the case that people get angry a lot over dealing with tracking npcs. Imagine how this would exacerbate that?

[FantasyWriter]

I was just thinking, too: This is all fine and good until the rez requests and complaints go rolling in and start peppering the boards, because it already seems the case that people get angry a lot over dealing with tracking npcs. Imagine how this would exacerbate that?

I agree with Amanda on this point as well as the players she mentions. As long as a "territorial" NPC will follow you all the way across the known because code trumps their RP, I want to be able to ride or run all the way across the Known to get away from them.  And I am ALL FOR taking your dear sweet time traveling. This is the best way to get interaction outside the walls from staff or other wilderness players.


I, being a player who was attacked in the Gaj by a mantis two or three IG days after getting jumped by said mantis half way across the known and riding my ass off.

[Synthesis]

That is such a noobish concern.

I mean, honestly...that auto-hunt AI is stupidly easy to defeat in at least five different ways that I can think of, and that's before we get into magick tricks.

Furthermore, if you get hunted down and killed by an NPC that's smart enough to track you down, because you or our mount ran out of stamina (for whatever reason), maybe you shouldn't have been out there on foot or with an exhausted mount in the first place.

[brytta.leofa]

That is such a noobish concern.

At least half the playerbase, including myself, are such noobs.  (I guess I should ask my Byn sergeant, neh?)

[Synthesis]

That is such a noobish concern.

At least half the playerbase, including myself, are such noobs.  (I guess I should ask my Byn sergeant, neh?)

What's your point?

[Iiyola]

That is such a noobish concern.

At least half the playerbase, including myself, are such noobs.  (I guess I should ask my Byn sergeant, neh?)

What's your point?

I'm guessing that some other players aren't as smart as you. Myself included.

[Synthesis]

Well, here's the thing:

If we...

a) assume that the auto-hunt code is working as well as can be expected (which I think is a fair assumption, given that it's still in place)

and

b) assume that the intent of the proposed code here is to make it more difficult to move around in the desert

...then the prediction that "it would become more difficult to run away from auto-hunting critters" is not an instance of an unintended consequence--it's an example of a consequence that would be expected, given the assumptions underlying the code in place.

On the other hand, I suppose we shouldn't be too quick to even grant the conclusion that it would make it more difficult to avoid said critters, because if we increased stamina utilization per room, it presumably would apply to all critters, which would make those auto-trackers run out of stamina more quickly as well.  After all, there's a reason that the legendary mantis-in-the-Gaj (supposedly) turned up two or three DAYS after it was initially encountered.

My observation that this was a noobish concern wasn't really the counterargument, if you were paying attention.  It was more an admonition (snarky, admittedly) that you should all pay more attention to how the code works...or if you really can't figure it out, don't go wandering into dangerous zones by yourself.

The real counterargument is simple:  underlying the proposed ideas here (which I don't particularly agree with) is the idea that it's too easy to move around in the desert (in all instances, presumably).  The ideas are intended to make things more difficult.  Thus, when things are predicted to become more difficult, you shouldn't cry, "unfair," you should plan on being more careful.  Applied to the current discussion:  you should take measures to avoid auto-hunting critters, or to make sure you can kill them, or to make sure you can outrun them if you can't avoid them or kill them.

There is a realism vs. playability argument to be made in just about every code circumstance, but the time to argue that against the auto-hunt code is not in the context of movement code.

A true unfairness argument would run something like, "Well, if campfires refresh stamina, it's pretty unfair that the only materials you can codedly build a campfire with are very far removed from Allanak and Red Storm, which means this benefits only about half of the playerbase until such time as dung can be used to build fires."  (Maybe it can--I've never tried.)

[brytta.leofa]

That is such a noobish concern.

At least half the playerbase, including myself, are such noobs.  (I guess I should ask my Byn sergeant, neh?)

What's your point?

Only that your first point isn't a good counter to whatever the tracking-NPCs argument was.  I suspect that confusion with how to deal with raptors is the Average player experience, not just the Noobish case.

[Synthesis]

That is such a noobish concern.

At least half the playerbase, including myself, are such noobs.  (I guess I should ask my Byn sergeant, neh?)

What's your point?

Only that your first point isn't a good counter to whatever the tracking-NPCs argument was.  I suspect that confusion with how to deal with raptors is the Average player experience, not just the Noobish case.

Since it wasn't intended to be a counter...good job.  The counter is in the part you didn't quote.

[AmandaGreathouse]

I rarely play pcs who ride mounts in the wilderness and have only died like 3 times out of probablyabout 80 deaths to the hunt code. I'm not even assuming that - I know of ways of breaking that. My concern is general dissatisfaction amongst the rest of the p-base due to consequences which some of the people proposing this aren't even thinking of. The campfire point is another good one. I can think of more, too. Like the people who are already frustrated with the lack of apparent wilderness quit rooms being more dissatisfied. Or that making desert travel take longer would be probably more harsh on people who are casual players (from a playability standpoint), and any number of other things. With an example of 2 ic nights from nak to luirs: How many people have time for that if they only have a few hours of playtime each week? How many people would want to stop playing hunter types due to such things? How much longer would such roles take? What would it add to the game in the face of the things it would screw with and cause dissatisfaction with?

[Intrepid]

I've always been a proponent of expanding the wilderness by two to three times.  I realize that this would be a nightmare for the builders, though.  However, Red Storm, Luirs and Nak always seemed too close to one another for my tastes.  The descs are largely repetitive in the wilderness, so that doesn't concern me much.

Do I think the gameworld would ever be expanded in that way?  Not really.  Way too much of a hassle for too little gain.  But it's a "would-be-nice" idea.

[Sephiroto]

I've always been fond of regenerating stamina up to a certain point while standing and moving and implementing two types of stamina; one type that represents short term anaerobic capability and the 2nd that represents the overall caloric energy stored in a PC's cells.  Standing regen rate takes into account endurance, weather, life in the area, racial modifiers, and perhaps some hidden stat akin to offense/defense that equates to the overall fitness of a character that would more quickly convert long-term energy storage into short-term energy at the cost of needing to eat more food.

Complex, complicated, and probably not for 1.Arm, but I like the idea none the less.

[Maso]

Yuh, you should be able to catch your breath by just...stopping moving for a bit...