Crime in the known.

[ghostymudy]

Playing the game and spending plenty of time in a supposedly rougher part of the world has me thinking, is there enough crime in the cities known world or even too much?

Perhaps I am a little unknowledgeable on this due to my relative newness and off peak playtimes but in the area where I play atleast I find that there is barely any "lesser" crime such as muggings or burglary. I don't even hear about this kind of thing happening, only about deaths and suchlike. It feels like any occurence of this "lesser crime" is carried out by those who are extremely skilled about it, never being caught.

So my question is do you think there should be more or less crime, initial OOC thoughs of "omgno, plz don't steal my l00t" aside and what kinds of crime are seemingly too uncommon/too frequent for this kind of game world? I do not mean pre-meditated and well executed assasinations, I mean do we need more mugging club-totting scum, lightfingered alley-skulking pickpockets and furniture towing burglars?

No specific accounts of crime, in order to avoid the spreading of IC information, please. Maybe something more than "yes" or "no", too.

[HavokBlue]

I'm under the impression that most people refrain from what you call "lesser crime" outside of say... the Labyrinth, because the risk vs reward ratio is bad. Unless you're Synthesis, you will probably have a hard time making a living as a pickpocket, for example, without getting arrested. As far as burglary goes... If you aren't noticing it, it's because the burglars are smart.

[Spoon]

I think the cities would benefit from the authorities being less efficient and more corrupt.

On the other hand, the crimcode currently prevents (most of the time) people losing their PCs to random killing sprees.

Things have gotten a lot better with the 'night' implementation. The problem is if you fail at crime you're likely to get reported straight to a Templar. I personally think people reporting crime to Templars ought to have one hell of a bribe on them.

[My 2 sids]

Although, muggings and the like certainly belong in Zan I don't think there is a way to get past the OOC factors.  These include: 

players don't like to loose their stuff -- Oh, sure they'll talk about sending out Kudos and such, but they don't pay up simply because someone else scripted a beautiful scene (just look at how many pay bards)

"corruption" is abundant (esp. among PCs) but the cost to play is extraordinary high ( meaning they'll take one's life-time commitment/ hundreds of sids -- but, not even a lowely Private is going to take some fifty-sid, one-time bribe)

PCs know one another.  It'd be one thing if only a few players disregarded a PC wearing a low hood/ face mask to get the description,  but just too many players instantly recognize (even half-way around the known)

PCs don't like maiming.   "Bad guys" don't tend to respond well to a public whipping or loosing a hand or banishment or firing or something (look what happened with enslaving) and so it becomes a game of cat and mouse which only really ends in death.

[Cind]

<edited out some personal crime info, as i'm too much of a dummy to read the original post in its entirety until after posting.>

i don't really care about the fact that this (any) real life week, people are smiling needlessly a lot more, or being noticeably over-gruff, or discriminating a lot more, or discriminating a lot less; I saw a recent explosion of 'gicker hate recently, actually. we're an extremely small representation of the population, although i'm guessing, statistically, we make up a chunk if not most or all of the sorcerors and mindbenders.

and that is why nothing anyone freaking does in the game ever, ever makes me worry or makes me happy about the big picture.

[Nyr]

Although, muggings and the like certainly belong in Zan I don't think there is a way to get past the OOC factors.  These include: 

players don't like to loose their stuff -- Oh, sure they'll talk about sending out Kudos and such, but they don't pay up simply because someone else scripted a beautiful scene (just look at how many pay bards)

Players don't like to lose their stuff to a poor scene or anything they consider to be poor roleplay.  In general, though, I think that the playerbase is more mature than you're giving them credit for.  If you RP a theft, bardic performance, murder, torture scene, etc well, you will reap the benefits of it from at least some players who are not as jaded as you suggest.

"corruption" is abundant (esp. among PCs) but the cost to play is extraordinary high ( meaning they'll take one's life-time commitment/ hundreds of sids -- but, not even a lowely Private is going to take some fifty-sid, one-time bribe)

I agree with the first point on this one as well to an extent.  However, 'sid isn't the only means of bribery, and if you're going to use something to bribe someone, you'd better know your mark better than tossing half a small at them and hoping your problem goes away.  It also depends on what that 50 sid bribe is meant to cover.

PCs know one another.  It'd be one thing if only a few players disregarded a PC wearing a low hood/ face mask to get the description,  but just too many players instantly recognize (even half-way around the known)

I agree with the first part of this as well.  In criminal enterprise, however, one usually expects that stealth skills are involved.  If people are getting your description, you probably screwed up somewhere. 

The biggest criminals are the ones that have moved beyond (or never worried about) coded stealth skills.  They are the folks that pay others to do that stuff for them and take the fall.

PCs don't like maiming.   "Bad guys" don't tend to respond well to a public whipping or loosing a hand or banishment or firing or something (look what happened with enslaving) and so it becomes a game of cat and mouse which only really ends in death.

PCs don't like it, no.  I think players do.  Yes, a PC probably doesn't like the idea of being whipped, losing a hand, being banished, being fired, or being enslaved.  If a PC didn't dislike those sorts of things, more questions would be raised about their quality of RP than not.  The player may not like the fact that their PC got in trouble, got framed, or got caught, but them's the breaks, and if said players don't like having other PCs be mean to their PCs, they can re-read the rules to get staff perspective on this sort of thing.

[Synthesis]

I'm under the impression that most people refrain from what you call "lesser crime" outside of say... the Labyrinth, because the risk vs reward ratio is bad. Unless you're Synthesis, you will probably have a hard time making a living as a pickpocket, for example, without getting arrested. As far as burglary goes... If you aren't noticing it, it's because the burglars are smart.

Hey, even my last pickpocket got executed by a templar the first time he ever got arrested.

[Dar]

Crime is a very rewarding concept that can be done either very badly or very enjoyable to everyone involved, even the victims. Unfortunately, unlike the work of bards, crime does involve secrecy and maintaining if not anonymity, then at least an ability to get away fast enough or sneaky enough to not get caught. Because of that, it is rare to really truly know how spread out crime is unless a criminal screws up.

Problem is that if a criminal is too open. Let's say a mugger instead of burglar. Someone who actually shakes coin off PCs in Allanak in the night. Even if he succeeds and gets away with it, it is only a matter of time before someone somewhere puts a bounty onto him/her. So no matter how corrupt a templar is, it is not the higher up virtual authority that he has to answer to per se, it's all those noblies, agents, merchants, and aides that will talk behind his back about letting go a known criminal. And at that point, it is often more profitable for a templar to brag how he executed a rinthi who dared to look wrong at an aide of Lord Fancypants, then take whatever coin the criminal is offering and endure the public heat.

I've bribed templars with ... coins, a joke, a teapot, a bluff of how important and capable I am, a lie on how pathetic and useless I am. Once I sang to a templar inside a jail ... that more confused him then got me out of there though.

[Titania]

Crime is usually fun depending on many factors.

If you are the law and have no stealth detection,  then not so fun. There is a weird push for you to make contacts and catch criminals and a push for you to be kind of be corrupt and not be efficient  without any real explanation of the contradiction .  Just do it right,  just enough, somehow. Definitely an art and not a science.

If all the interactions you get is your things are gone,  not very fun.
I think if you are basically helpless against low level hide it may be you are tempted to use the only thing you have,  when you get the chance. SMASH.

And of course it depends on who is playing the victims and who is playing the law.

[Iiyola]

Yeah, make something beautiful out of it, and I'm saying that to both parties: If you're the mugger and get caught: make a scene, such as Dar described. I think that stuff is beautiful.

And if you're the victim: well great! Make a storyline out of it!

If you're the law: get bribed! Another amazing reason to enhance your RP!

Don't try to be perfect, people! The greatest characters are the ones with flaws!

[MeTekillot]

It's all too common for someone to try to kill someone else because they took something. I recently saw someone try to put a bounty out on someone else for having their hood up because a dagger disappeared from their belt while they were sitting in a seedy tavern.

[Iiyola]

It's all too common for someone to try to kill someone else because they took something. I recently saw someone try to put a bounty out on someone else for having their hood up because a dagger disappeared from their belt while they were sitting in a seedy tavern.

That's just... dumb.

I'd just find that dude and kick their ass into a corner, extort them, strip em from their clothes and let him run around naked.... well you get the picture.

[Coat of Arms]

Crime rarely really works out on RPIs. It can be done, some players love it, but by and large it isn't worth basing a character around unless you have a burning desire to play a criminal. This is why the 'rinth sees long stretches of stagnation, for instance, and why you can go months between witnessing crime. It's also part of what makes the city elf race somewhat unpopular, making it difficult to get any kind of culture going for them.

Criminal roleplay occupies a space between regular everyday activities and dramatic events. Most players have a subconscious aversion to "bad" actions and an aversion to characters that do these bad things. This aversion does not extend to things like murder and oppression because it's an officially desirable part of the game and makes for a good show, but it neatly covers things like stealing. Many players feel some kind of OOC indignation when witnessing or suffering minor crimes, so they go to absurd lengths to thwart it - often far more than they'd do when it comes to the things mentioned in the game's infamous motto. They play with a morality that isn't really in line with the spirit of the game, leading both to a shortage of general criminals and to an overzealous opposition to them by those who don't play them. Whether these players realize it or not, they make criminal roleplay not worth the effort except for the small handful of players who thrive on that specific style.

If you play an assassin and carry out a succesful hit, you'll probably be applauded for it by other players. If you play a thief, you'll probably find an entire city hating you for stealing someone's mount ticket, your description passed around, and yourself a pariah for what should be commonplace events. Failing a peek roll can end your thieving career as everyone now knows you're a pickpocket (and they will tell everyone, believe me) and you'll have someone codewatching you whenever you're in the presence of other PCs. There are ways around it, but they are so few and so restrictive that most players opt out entirely. I would estimate that there are more psionicists than career pickpockets in the game at any given time.

This isn't exclusive to Armageddon, it happens on all RPIs, but it's more significant here because crime should be a central part of the culture. Ideally it should matter if a rich person walks down an alley in the poorest part of the commons because there should be half a dozen criminal characters supporting that aspect of the game, but there never really is. They never get a chance to establish themselves because most players are wildly against it and stomp it out before it can take hold.

[Iiyola]

This isn't exclusive to Armageddon, it happens on all RPIs, but it's more significant here because crime should be a central part of the culture. Ideally it should matter if a rich person walks down an alley in the poorest part of the commons because there should be half a dozen criminal characters supporting that aspect of the game, but there never really is. They never get a chance to establish themselves because most players are wildly against it and stomp it out before it can take hold.

Hear hear! It would be great if crime wouldn't solely consist of NPC's and echoes.

[Nyr]

Ideally it should matter if a rich person walks down an alley in the poorest part of the commons because there should be half a dozen criminal characters supporting that aspect of the game, but there never really is.

A rich person does not simply walk down an alley in the poorest part of the commons.

I get the point, though.  It's hard playing a criminal.  One would have to focus on being a legitimate businessperson--and one that can be reasoned with, bribed, corrupted, etc--before engaging in theft.

And again, the best criminals are the ones that don't regularly have to use stealth skills (whether that be an occasional thing or something they just never have to stoop to anymore).  They get someone else to do the dirty work.  They create distractions with those people.  Think like an Evil Overlord first, criminal second, if you want to be a successful criminal...because that's probably the only way you're going to succeed without being labeled as a pariah and hunted for twinking out your pickpocket on the wrong dude.

[My 2 sids]

And again, the best criminals are the ones that don't regularly have to use stealth skills (whether that be an occasional thing or something they just never have to stoop to anymore).  They get someone else to do the dirty work.  They create distractions with those people.  Think like an Evil Overlord first, criminal second, if you want to be a successful criminal...because that's probably the only way you're going to succeed without being labeled as a pariah and hunted for twinking out your pickpocket on the wrong dude.

"Best"?  more like idealistic. 

Sorry, but concepts like this (where everyone is a "super" hero/villain/spy) really kill game immersion for me.  The whole idea about having a hierarchical society is everyone isn't special.  Playing a super-complicated, plotting, schemer is fine if playing in a refined society;  but, when talking about living and dying from one meal to the next -- life gets really raw and really simple really quickly.

If the code doesn't support "raw" if the players don't support "raw" if the staff doesn't support "raw" ... the game is not going to have a "raw" flavor.

[Nyr]

And again, the best criminals are the ones that don't regularly have to use stealth skills (whether that be an occasional thing or something they just never have to stoop to anymore).  They get someone else to do the dirty work.  They create distractions with those people.  Think like an Evil Overlord first, criminal second, if you want to be a successful criminal...because that's probably the only way you're going to succeed without being labeled as a pariah and hunted for twinking out your pickpocket on the wrong dude.

"Best"?  more like idealistic. 

I was actually referring to templars, nobles, agents, anyone of significant social and political power (whether it be garnered via sponsored application or via in-game work).

Sorry, but concepts like this (where everyone is a "super" hero/villain/spy) really kill game immersion for me.  The whole idea about having a hierarchical society is everyone isn't special.  Playing a super-complicated, plotting, schemer is fine if playing in a refined society;  but, when talking about living and dying from one meal to the next -- life gets really raw and really simple really quickly.

I don't understand this point.  Can you please clarify?  Are you saying that plotting schemers are antithetical to Zalanthas?

If the code doesn't support "raw" if the players don't support "raw" if the staff doesn't support "raw" ... the game is not going to have a "raw" flavor.

Code does, players do, staff do.  It's harder to do it and you have to play intelligently to be a nobody thief.  If you're interested in trying it out, send in a request and we can give you some pointers on what you could do to improve your criminal playing. If you just want to rail against the code, players, and staff, please go ahead, just keep it clean. 

[Calavera]

If you are playing a criminal type and are running into real OOC stumbling blocks with your criminal RP, I suggest you file a character report. It will probably come to me, because I'm in charge of all the scumbags.

We'll sit down. We'll talk. Maybe we'll shank some people and take a long, romantic walk across the rooftops.

But in all seriousness--I am happy to provide feedback if you are attempting to play a burgeoning criminal and having difficulties. It's part of what being your (un)clanned staff is all about.

[ShaLeah]

If you are playing a criminal type and are running into real OOC stumbling blocks with your criminal RP, I suggest you file a character report. It will probably come to me, because I'm in charge of all the scumbags.

We'll sit down. We'll talk. Maybe we'll shank some people and take a long, romantic walk across the rooftops.

But in all seriousness--I am happy to provide feedback if you are attempting to play a burgeoning criminal and having difficulties. It's part of what being your (un)clanned staff is all about.

And just like a thief I am totally stealing this for my new signature!

[Barsook]

If you are playing a criminal type and are running into real OOC stumbling blocks with your criminal RP, I suggest you file a character report. It will probably come to me, because I'm in charge of all the scumbags.

We'll sit down. We'll talk. Maybe we'll shank some people and take a long, romantic walk across the rooftops.

But in all seriousness--I am happy to provide feedback if you are attempting to play a burgeoning criminal and having difficulties. It's part of what being your (un)clanned staff is all about.

And just like a thief I am totally stealing this for my new signature!

No, I want it!  It's too long. 

[ShaLeah]

If you are playing a criminal type and are running into real OOC stumbling blocks with your criminal RP, I suggest you file a character report. It will probably come to me, because I'm in charge of all the scumbags.

We'll sit down. We'll talk. Maybe we'll shank some people and take a long, romantic walk across the rooftops.

But in all seriousness--I am happy to provide feedback if you are attempting to play a burgeoning criminal and having difficulties. It's part of what being your (un)clanned staff is all about.

And just like a thief I am totally stealing this for my new signature!

No, I want it!  It's too long. 

I cut it up and took out its entrails to get to the soft squishy part of it that made me warm and fuzzy inside.

[HavokBlue]

While I agree with Coat of Arms' points, my experience playing criminals in the recent past is that various people enforcing city law are willing to look the other way given the right incentive.

[Dan]

While I agree with Coat of Arms' points, my experience playing criminals in the recent past is that various people enforcing city law are willing to look the other way given the right incentive.

Very true from my own experience as well. One of the few scenarios where asking for permission might be easier than asking for forgiveness.

[Qzzrbl]

Meh.

My experience (with only one or two exceptions... I've never really played many criminals) has always been as follows:

Commit crime. (fighting, smuggling, etc.)

Get caught.

Get thrown in jail.

Get visited by templar. (For god knows whatever reason. I can't imagine that templars go out and check up on every NPC and VNPC that gets tossed in jail)

Beg. Grovel. Bribe. (Even laid down five hundred coins once after getting caught with spice.)

Get killed anyway.

And I know, a couple of times my char had it coming (didn't really expect much else after stealing a noble's wagon and killing the guards within), but it's the severe punishments for petty crimes I keep getting that make me not wanna bother.

It's pretty much ubertwink or wind up dead.

[Qzzrbl]

And again, the best criminals are the ones that don't regularly have to use stealth skills (whether that be an occasional thing or something they just never have to stoop to anymore).  They get someone else to do the dirty work.  They create distractions with those people.  Think like an Evil Overlord first, criminal second, if you want to be a successful criminal...because that's probably the only way you're going to succeed without being labeled as a pariah and hunted for twinking out your pickpocket on the wrong dude.

And I've just gotta say.... It kinda stinks that you need to be an evil overlord with minions to play a criminal.

Allanak's a pretty nasty place, supposedly. Crime's supposed to be everywhere. Amos Skullthumper -should- be able to slink out of the alleys and mug some non-affiliated commoner for some coin and lay low in 'Rinth for a while without getting a 1000 'sid bounty placed on his head because said non-clanned commoner was buddy-buddy and slipped a word-for-word sdesc to some high-up noble/templar that should be above the concerns of lower rabble in the first place.

I've seen it happen quite a few times.

[HavokBlue]

Meh.

My experience (with only one or two exceptions... I've never really played many criminals) has always been as follows:

Commit crime. (fighting, smuggling, etc.)

Get caught.

Get thrown in jail.

Get visited by templar. (For god knows whatever reason. I can't imagine that templars go out and check up on every NPC and VNPC that gets tossed in jail)

Beg. Grovel. Bribe. (Even laid down five hundred coins once after getting caught with spice.)

Get killed anyway.

And I know, a couple of times my char had it coming (didn't really expect much else after stealing a noble's wagon and killing the guards within), but it's the severe punishments for petty crimes I keep getting that make me not wanna bother.

It's pretty much ubertwink or wind up dead.

I kind of think this falls into the "Ask for permission instead of beg for forgiveness" category. Militia/templar PCs in Allanak, for example, are often willing to accommodate crime within reason provided you're already paying bribes or protection fees or whatever.

Victims will always react with extreme negativity to any sort of crime. It's up to everybody else to laugh at them and tell them to stop being batshit insane when they put a three large bounty on a pickpocket.

[roughneck]

Large bounties on small crimes used to really irritate me.  Not so much anymore.

Part of the reason, I'm sure, is that there is a very large number of pc's who can put up a couple of large without even feeling it.  So, for a rich pc, it is a reasonable IC reaction because it's a very public way of setting the precedent, 'fuck with me and you get fucked up.'  Steal from me, touch me, harm any of my people and I will escalate.  It especially makes sense for organizations that don't want to be stolen from continually.  If you let the small stuff slide, you're just inviting the bigger stuff.

It makes the stakes higher, but what's wrong with that?

The only real problem I see with playing a criminal is how hard it is to, 'lay low' in a game with a limited number of pc's.  Unless you are hiding or locked up in a room somewhere literally ALL the time, someone is going to recognize you, even if they've never met you before.

[Cutthroat]

Get visited by templar. (For god knows whatever reason. I can't imagine that templars go out and check up on every NPC and VNPC that gets tossed in jail)

The short and sweet answer is PC interaction. While that's not necessarily an IC reason, I think many people agree that chatting with a templar is probably going to be more fun than idling for an hour or more, even if the interaction doesn't end in the criminal's favor.

As for severe punishments for petty crimes, in my opinion, they simply shouldn't be happening. Whether they do or not, I can't fairly say, as I can't remember experiencing or noticing that personally. I think what might be useful for players in law-enforcement roles is a "wanted level" guide which is basically a table listing crimes in rough order of severity, and the typical response in Allanak and Tuluk. It wouldn't fit every situation, obviously, and one might want to adjust for repeat offenders, non-humans, etc., but it would be a rough way to define the situation before delving into the specifics.

[My 2 sids]

Large bounties on small crimes used to really irritate me.  Not so much anymore.

Part of the reason, I'm sure, is that there is a very large number of pc's who can put up a couple of large without even feeling it.  So, for a rich pc, it is a reasonable IC reaction because it's a very public way of setting the precedent, 'fuck with me and you get fucked up.'  Steal from me, touch me, harm any of my people and I will escalate.  It especially makes sense for organizations that don't want to be stolen from continually.  If you let the small stuff slide, you're just inviting the bigger stuff.

It makes the stakes higher, but what's wrong with that?

The only real problem I see with playing a criminal is how hard it is to, 'lay low' in a game with a limited number of pc's.  Unless you are hiding or locked up in a room somewhere literally ALL the time, someone is going to recognize you, even if they've never met you before.

Two things:

One, even Nenyuk couldn't allow the resources it would take to hunt down and pay out large rewards every time some house-servant's hip purse strings got cut.

Two, PCs need to play realistically.  If one has enough funds that paying a 50 - 100 sid fine is "nothing" than its time for them to move past "I scrape by as a grubber and sometimes must steal for my bread"

[roughneck]

Two things:

One, even Nenyuk couldn't allow the resources it would take to hunt down and pay out large rewards every time some house-servant's hip purse strings got cut.

Two, PCs need to play realistically.  If one has enough funds that paying a 50 - 100 sid fine is "nothing" than its time for them to move past "I scrape by as a grubber and sometimes must steal for my bread"

I agree that putting a large bounty on a petty pickpocket is unreasonable, (I have never encountered this, although others may have) putting a bounty out on someone who breaks into your home or mugs you is very understandable, given human nature and a game world filled with violence.  I don't see Zalanthas as a place where passive victims are going to get very far.  Also, sometimes pickpockets steal things that are worth 3-5 thousand coins or more, which totally justifies hunting someone down, IMO.

It's like bitching about people in texas who shoot burglars.  Is it an unnecessary escalation of violence?  Hell yes.  Will it ever stop unless there are very harsh consequences to harming trespassers and stronger controls on guns and violence?  No.  I suppose you could argue that the situation we're discussing is more like a rich texan having his wallet stolen, the act captured on camera, and that rich texan putting a ten thousand dollar bounty on his head.  Well guess what?  If it was legal, you can be damn sure that in a world filled with murder and violence, a good percentage of people would do it. Even if their wallet had nothing but gum wrappers in it, that's just human nature.

The truly frustrating things are the methods people use.  Passing Sdescs around, everyone knowing everyone, etc.  These are the shitty parts of being a criminal.  However, as far as I'm concerned, the more bloodthirsty everyone is, on both sides, the better.

Playing a criminal is so, so much fun, but you have to nut up and expect every victim to retaliate.  You can try and kill them first, so they don't have an option, operate using stealth so you never get caught or just accept that you're going to die and take down as many people as you can with you.

[lussien]

Has there ever been a successful crime lord who 'does everything himself' kind? Like the solo operator man who finally betrays his main organization and then causes the city to end up in turmoil? Then flees to another place and starts it all over again?

[Dar]

There was once a character that started up gangs in both rinth and undertuluk and the dude in question spent 50% of all his gameplay riding between nak and tuluk. That was fun and very exhausting. At some point I actually began confusing places and people. Waiting for people to show up for a job that did not even live in the rinth, they were in UT. Been like 3 or 4 years ago now. I had much much much more time on my hands. Died to a twink somewhere on the way between point A and B.

I enjoyed that character, especially since being part of 'speshul' organization, I walked around sporting one of those mdesc hiding masks that dont exist anymore. Which I think annoyed the imms since they wanted them gone gone gone. Was also considered a sorceror on his very first week of gameplay, I have no clue why. Was also one of my very very first shady type characters that lived past a few days, so I've done some hellish blunders just due to ignorance of code.

Never betrayed the organizations because .... what for? Why would you betray a cash flow organization. Betrayed individual members when they became a liability of course, but they usually deserved it.

[Coat of Arms]

It's not so much about bounties and executions. I never felt a crippling overabundance of those, and they do have to take place now and then - a templar needs to display his power and ruthlessness, and there needs to be something for bounty hunters to do. It's more about the little OOC things people will do to prevent all manner of crimes, but especially theft:

> If you ever suspect someone of being a thief, simply watch him for the entire duration of every instance where you're in the same room as him. He won't be able to do any stealing himself. The watch code is very lenient on the user and very harsh on the target. The overwhelming majority of the time, you don't even have to roleplay watching someone as it's very unlikely that anyone will notice, you're just applying an OOC-fuelled penalty to any stealth-related action the target tries to make. There are practically no penalties for the watcher.

> Everything you own that might be worth stealing can simply be stored in an impervious backpack. The thief will probably be able to find something worth stealing, but it won't be the stuff you don't want to lose, and thus it won't be the stuff the thief wants access to. Who cares about your completely replacable kank ticket or 50-'sid dagger? Since you don't, the thief probably doesn't either. For this reason, nobody ever hires a thief to steal something from somebody. They'll hire a magicker to paralyze the guy in his bedroom and grab it, or they'll hire an assassin to kill the guy and grab it. In fact, they'd probably hire a magicker in both cases, but that's besides the point.

> If you see a guy sneaking or hiding, you know he's almost certainly a rogue type. If he isn't wearing combat gear, you know he's definitely a thief. If you see a guy failing a peek attempt, you know he's a thief and you can make it impossible for him to ever attempt anything while you're in the room. If he tries to roleplay off the very ambiguous peek echo as checking out someone's ass, you certainly won't be fooled, you know it was the peek skill and you'll make it impossible for him to play a thief.

> If you witness someone doing something shady and he has a hood up, simply contact him and you'll get his sdesc. Anyone playing a shady character can attest to the number of random contact-withdraws they get. Forget about barrier, contact will break through. Anonymity is impossible. If someone spots a shadow in the bar, they'll typically stand up and scan so they can get a look just in case they later hear about a theft and they need to pass on the description. Hell, if you happen to notice something go missing as it happens because you looked in your pockets twice and your spice was gone the second time, and there's only one other visible PC in the room, you're aware of the fact that there's a 90% chance he did it. The odds of there being a hidden thief around are very small, so you can OOCly label the guy a thief and employ all of the above-mentioned methods to make sure he can't do it again.

> All of this easily gathered information can conveniently be passed around to everyone on AIM so your friends don't have to suffer the injustice (or merely the chance) of getting pickpocketed, robbed or otherwise compromised in their peaceful, conflict-free lives.

I've seen all of this many, many times. So often that I'm wholly unsurprised that criminal roleplay is all but absent.

Soldiers and templars are usually good about letting crime exist because it's part of their roles, they want criminals around so there's a reason to enforce the law. It's the general playerbase, the ones with nothing to lose and no particular interest in criminal rolelpay, who ruin it for those who depend on it in one way or another. The "common player" hates to lose something they feel they've worked for unless it happens in an interesting, memorable scene they can later brag about. Getting your keys nicked isn't worth bragging about, but making it impossible creates a ripple effect that ends up causing brag-worthy events to be much less common because most players are left disgusted with the experience of playing a character who isn't good. Everything is related to something else in this way, and if you contribute to the death of an entire realm of roleplay, you make the game poorer for yourself and everyone else. These days you can play a city-based character and never have anything exciting happen whatsoever unless you create it or know which players to be around in order to find it. It's because playing a "bad" character is often shunned unless it falls into one of the few categories that are deemed desirable elements in the game, and they're not enough by themselves to support that entire realm of roleplay.

[Lizzie]

Coat of Arms, I see the same type of meta-gaming done by some players of thieves/assassins.  If you're wearing all armor, seriously encumbered, blah blah blah, you're a warrior and therefore probably don't have the scan/listen skill. So that makes you an easy target for my thief. I'll just wait until Sassy the assassin/house servant aide walks away, and then I got your stuff. Or even better, if you're new, I'll AIM my pal Jim and have him log in and mindbend you until you pass out, and then I'll just steal the pack right off your back.

What you're talking about, really, is a few players who play the meta game to disadvantage people who they believe aren't playing the meta game.

What those people don't understand though, is that at some point, their "victims" will catch on eventually.

If you suspect that a player is meta-gaming in a way that's making it hard for you to enjoy Arm, then send a player complaint.

But please don't think this is a phenomenon exclusively targetted against thieves/assassins/shady types. It is done -by- players of those types as well. And don't think it's all that common. I'm comfortable in my belief that -most- players don't use their OOC knowledge of code/skill trees/maps/clan docs/AIM buddy lists, to get an advantage at the expense of someone else's enjoyment.

Some do - but most don't.

[Titania]

Sounds like rogue types just want to steal in peace with no consequences. Or dislike being interrupted in their spam sneak off some where.

The problem is playing the law is very boring. Oh look some interaction, oh wait I don't want the criminal to feel I am picking on them. I'll head back to the barracks and idle.

And of course everyone expects the law to be fair.Cops in our real civilized society never use excessive force! Don't pick on the criminals, out of everyone else you just happened to find not prejudiced paragons of justice to fine you what YOU think is the right bribe aft talking shit. Why even have law pcs? Install a bribe comand for npc soldiers based on the crime severity table. _

I think certain ranks of the law are in the same kinda boat as criminals. I don't want to kill you just kick your ass a little? But there are so few characters and people freak out about being hassled as bad as being stolen from. So even if you are some scummy halfbreed you complain and people CARE! Here comes a templar to reprimand the soldier for going outside their duty. Also I can't just beat you a little except with emotes, because of crim code. Good luck trying to find someone willing to be hassled.

[Down Under]

I agree with Lizzie. Some do, most don't.

I think once it's figured out you are a pickpocket, that information tends to circulate all too quickly ICly. Other than that, life isn't fair. People who have scan are meant to see people hiding. People who don't, can't, and make easy marks. I'm sure in 2.0, a lot of the stealth system will be brand new and revamped, providing more opportunity for RP rather than code beam battles.

[Potaje]

I've played at least one of several long lived criminals, with out minions. Crime is in its self both a simply and complex mechanism. Though this is not withstanding the level of aptness of those you deal with, from citizens, other criminals and law, however I found it very easy to play a criminal that began small made association in important positions, did more favors before large capers, which at one point had a Templar back a noble off them, even though there was a ten large bounty on their head.

Then again, I had one character that was outlandish in his behavior, got caught, toyed with by the law, tried to make the bride, toyed with some more, then killed. He really did deserve it after looking back, at the time I felt otherwise.

I have also played the side of Johnny Law many times, and simply put, sometimes your chosen to be the example, though I can say with all certainty, their are ways to ensure survival as a criminal when caught. And if you don't survive there is generally a good reason, sure not always, but generally. This is something staff keeps the Law clans very accountable for.

[Dar]

Coat of Arms's bad experience do unspeakable damage to you.
You reel.
Abuse happens, but I'd like to think it's not common place. Definitely not enough to so totally spoil an experience. Whoa.

And as someone who did play a few thieves whom I'd like to think were successful without too much twinkage, I would say this whole closed pack fortress is a legend. Nothing is impossible, in fact that kind of thing makes it interesting.

Watch skill is beautiful. Because if you're watching somebody and your stuff goes missing, then whoever it was who stole from you could not have been the one you're watching ... ... ... right?

[RogueGunslinger]

Meh.

My experience (with only one or two exceptions... I've never really played many criminals) has always been as follows:

Commit crime. (fighting, smuggling, etc.)

Get caught.

Get thrown in jail.

Get visited by templar. (For god knows whatever reason. I can't imagine that templars go out and check up on every NPC and VNPC that gets tossed in jail)

Beg. Grovel. Bribe. (Even laid down five hundred coins once after getting caught with spice.)

Get killed anyway.

And I know, a couple of times my char had it coming (didn't really expect much else after stealing a noble's wagon and killing the guards within), but it's the severe punishments for petty crimes I keep getting that make me not wanna bother.

It's pretty much ubertwink or wind up dead.

This, sadly, is my exact experiences to. It is literally twink or die with pick-pockets. That or spend your first ingame month salting so you can get enough 'sids to bribe templars. Which... I had one experience where a full thousand 'sid bribe only got me one extra arrest before I was thrown into the arena to die.

Basically, in my experience, if a templar catches you doing something illegal more than once you can probably expect to lose that character.

[Case]

I would say based on my experiences with this, if you want to get away with crime and especially being caught, it depends almost entirely how you act when committing crimes and when caught. Bribes are not fixed amount get-out-of-jail-free card, just a sweetner. Depends on the Templars or law enforcement involved, but it's all too easy to complain about how hard it is to be a criminal but ignore the fact that when you're acting like a total tool, talking smack and thinking you're entitled to behave however you please while wasting the law's time and generally making yourself as annoying as possible, you'll probably get slapped, yeah.

[Kaiden]

The playerbase is simply too small to be able to play a pickpocket or a burglar right.

I think someone said that in another post, but if you get caught stealing something minor, and there's someone that witnesses the crime, you're pretty much fucked for the rest of that character's life, social-life wise.

The Templar might tell a minion about you, that minion will tell his mate, the mate will tell her BFF, the BFF will tell another friend and within days the whole city will know that you attempted to steal a wooden dagger from that indie merchant with the rosy cheeks.

I guess it doesn't matter as much if you're a filthy elf from the 'rinth, but if you're a human whatever from the city, then yeah, good luck...

[HavokBlue]

That's why you play an elf. If you steal shit, nobody judges you for it.

[Wasteland Raider]

Protips, based on extensive experience both playing criminals and playing the other side of the law:

1) Don't be an idiot when you're arrested.

Seriously. Seriously, seriously, I don't understand this. Yes, your character may hate the law. They may absolutely despise templars. They may be cocky, self-righteous, pompous assholes. They're not suicidal. In real life, you may hate cops, and you may hate everything they stand for, but when you're arrested, you don't call the cop a cunt and spit in his face. And if you do, you deserve what you get. In game, the same thing applies - except here, the cops' word is law, and you get to die if you piss them off enough.

2) Be more useful than you are a nuisance.

Templars really don't need money, usually, and if they do, it's more money than you can provide. Find a way to make yourself useful to them, or find out who you can rob that they won't care about. Trust me, most Templars aren't going to off you for robbing Joe Bynner, but if you keep knocking over their favourite noble's aide, you're going to get what's coming to you. Maybe become an informant for them, or offer to do jobs for them - then, maybe next time you pickpocket Fancypants's aide, they might look the other way.

[Armaddict]

The precarious life of the armageddon criminal, represented:

[Dar]

Having same philosophy as wasteland raider, I am yet to ever get killed by a templar for being a criminal. Being killed by a templar for being a participant in some political rivalry is another matter of course.

[Iiyola]

The precarious life of the armageddon criminal, represented:

LOOOOOOL!

[Krishnamurti]

Actually most criminals in real life are stupid too, so you'll fit right in.

[Qzzrbl]

Actually most criminals in real life are stupid too, so you'll fit right in.

They tend to get away more often than not, too.

[Narf]

Actually most criminals in real life are stupid too, so you'll fit right in.

They tend to get away more often than not, too.

Kinda; Crime's basically a gamble where you can only really lose once or your life goes to shit. The odds are in your favor each individual time, but you wanna get out quick because eventually something goes wrong. Career criminals definately have problems with the law that the casual criminal does not.

[Sam]

I've definitely been killed because someone thought I was a pickpocket. (Disclaimer: I was, but I never got caught.)

I will say this: Over the past couple years, the templars have been doing a great job stifling pickpockets just enough to stress them out, without killing them.

I will add this: It is a struggle.

[Cutthroat]

I think there are more important distinctions for your PC than whether or not he/she is a criminal.

- Location: where is your PC from? Where do they do their work? In Tuluk certain criminals are tolerated to an extent, so long as they are licensed citizens and they're good at what they do. Allanak can have a certain leniency to it as well, if you're smart about it. Crime is commonplace in certain parts of both cities, but criminals that don't get caught generally don't "shit where they eat". On the flipside, a criminal that burglarizes houses or picks pockets in their own neighborhood is more likely to be easily identified.
- Type of crime: Theft and assault/murder immediately come to mind, because they give you a "You are now wanted!" as soon as you mess up. Raiding is an obvious one too. Often forgotten are lower-key criminals and their misdeeds. Spice dealing (in Allanak), contraband dealing (everywhere), protection rackets, general smuggling, and such are all technically possible. Shady characters could even do something immoral, but not necessarily criminal, that still victimizes others - fixed gambling on certain things, scamming, etc.
- The crew: Like in many things IG or IRL, you are more likely to succeed in a group of like-minded individuals.

Successful crime is often heavily organized, a group that does its best to ensure it is run more like a business than a band of thugs. Bribes are business expenditures and they profit off of people handing over their money willingly as often as possible. See: the Mafia.

[FantasyWriter]

Don't forget the good old fashioned Con Artist.
Though 90% of the PCs I have tried to con before pick up on the con immediately instead of running with it.
Half of the remaining 5% were half giants.

One of my favorite NPCs is the elf that sells treasure maps in Nak.

[X-D]

On the point of templars and petty crimes.

Feel free to file a player complaint on the matter. I would/have.

And that is something I rarely recommend. But Templars, Yes, I know the player wants some kind of enjoyment/interaction. But I find that often the players put that WELL above realistic play of the role and am perfectly willing to call them on it with staff. In fact, If I have a PC who has performed a petty crime against somebody unclanned, be it PC or NPC and that templar rolls into the jail, You can bet I will file a complaint If they don't turn around and leave after finding out it is a crime BELOW their Status...and yes, that is the point of realism I find them usually forgetting. I mean really, You are a NOBLE chosen by the highlord/sunking to be his personal Priest/enforcer, you lead ARMIES and have access to AWESOME powers and abilities no other beings have, maybe channeled directly from such highlord/sunking  and you are bothering with some pick pocket?

Secondly, Be willing to stop the scene.

OOC Hey, This Scene is to be Delayed till another time, I need time to deal with staff on the matter...feel free to perm crime this PC so he/she stays in the cell till such a time as this can be finished.

This is something much easier to deal with then to try and get a res after the fact...because frankly, you will not get that res...even if you did grovel, bribe and do whatever and the templar killed your PC anyway.

Usually in the beginning of such a scene I will also wish up and ask that somebody oversee the scene.

And Hey, that way, once it is all over, if you die anyway, you can ask staff for feedback:)

Maybe the answer will be "Dude, You spit on him, and he was gonna let you go, You called him a breed loving gortok...and he was gonna let you go....then you refused to pay the 50 coin fine...I mean come on."

Or, "There are factors in this that you are not aware of...sorry."

[Fathi]

There is a lot of great advice in this thread. I only have a tiny addition:

Bribing works a lot better when you do it beforehand. A small to the powers that be here and there, over time, a few nice gifts, and they'll be much more likely to ignore you if you do get caught. It's a much more effective strategy than standing there over a body, covered in blood, and offering to give them 'sid to just walk away.

[FantasyWriter]

There is a lot of great advice in this thread. I only have a tiny addition:

Bribing works a lot better when you do it beforehand. A small to the powers that be here and there, over time, a few nice gifts, and they'll be much more likely to ignore you if you do get caught. It's a much more effective strategy than standing there over a body, covered in blood, and offering to give them 'sid to just walk away.

Wonderful advice. This also allows you to contact said power-that-is  once you do get caught committing a crime and having someone in your corner, so to speak.
Offering a percentage of your monthly take is also a good alternative to a flat, one time or occasional bribe.  That way the power actually has a reason to -want- you around and to -want- you to be successful.
Also, also wik.... This is a good way to GET contracts from the afore mentioned power.

[Cind]

I felt bad about wanting to complain about my unlawful pc getting spam-jumped into a life of impossibly thick survelliance for having one suspicious think in their RL week-long life, and she thought and felt with relative frequency, but then I read some of these posts, and I feel better.

I bet you anything that the number of pc criminals will spike (for the game's current standards) if crimcode were eased, especially for supposedly more common crimes. Make pickpockets easier to play and survive as than muggers, who are easier to survive as than serial killers, or something. Maybe just have pickpockets tossed in the slammer and release them after a while without coded intervention. Automatic lengths of time in the slammer for everyone! That way pickpockets and lower-end criminals don't have to pay money in bribes they don't have, and templar pcs won't feel the need to go visit every feck in the jail, just the important ones. Actually, I think they need to visit them and release them of crimes. I don't know, because while its the only way I remember being relieved of crimes, it also doesn't make any sense to me for most crimes.

And make it so humans spend less time in jail and elves a little more or something. They should still be hard to play; most criminals have difficult lives.

That's why you play an elf. If you steal shit, nobody judges you for it.

Being an elf definitely has this advantage. Its a beautiful truth. In fact, the annoying pc I had that got tailed for a think, which seemed unusual until I read this thread, was my only criminal human.

[FantasyWriter]

It's not a crime if you don't get caught!

[palomar]

You already spend automated time in jail when arrested. Law enforcers with jail access are encouraged to visit the cells because it provides interaction to templars/militia and the criminals. Sitting alone in a cell for a RL hour (or whatever the automated jail sentence is) is no fun.

Crimcode was adjusted not so long ago with the nighttime changes.

Bribing is under-utilized, especially the kind that is done in advance. In Tuluk it's even partially built into the system through the tradition/law of licenses. On the other hand, trying to bribe an official is not a granted auto-success. Behavior and interaction goes a long way.

[Cind]

ooh i didn't know that. i want automatic jail time.

i imagine, not being able to way homies with elaborate plans and just sitting there would be pretty boring.

one question, is it legal to buy, sell and carry poisons in city-states and villages? i know its not for lockpicks.

[FantasyWriter]

ooh i didn't know that. i want automatic jail time.

i imagine, not being able to way homies with elaborate plans and just sitting there would be pretty boring.

one question, is it legal to buy, sell and carry poisons in city-states and villages? i know its not for lockpicks.

On the IG message board of each civilization, laws are posted in the first few posts.
Note: The laws are as fluid as you would expect in a world known for murder, corruption and betrayal, but there there are, nonetheless.

[FantasyWriter]

PS: Anything beyond the find out IG information I pointed you to, qualifies as find out IC information.