New player, question about skills

[Yoman]

Hey all, new player here. I'm onto my second character in about two weeks of RL play, I've got a good idea of the world,maps, help files, all's good I think. I've heard about the 'Ask IC' or 'That's not appropriate forum talk' things, and I'm hoping this doesn't fall into any of those.

So my question is, how many times do you need to use a skill for it to improve? I'm not looking for an exact '60 uses for Novice >> Apprentice" or anything, just an approximate number of game sessions it takes for an average player to improve a skill.

For example, I've been foraging for and finding salt, but my skill doesn't seem to be improving. Is there a way to gauge how long until you are better at it?

[Nao]

It really depends on the skill. Some go up pretty fast, others take forever. Or you might notice that you're getting better at something but the skill level doesn't change because the range included in "apprentice" or "journeyman" is actually pretty large.

[Kalai]

Your wisdom makes a difference on how quickly you learn things. But generally don't expect to see too much growth in the first session.  Whether it's a couple, several, or many to experience improvement depends very much also. Experiment a bit.

[Delirium]

Also, practicing once an IC day should be plenty. Of course, do it more if it's in character to do so. Or less.

[Sokotra]

Also, I'm not sure, but foraging for something besides salt might help... depending on what class/sublcass you are.  If you are a ranger or scavenger for example, you might want to forage for food if it would be IC for you to do so.  Forage seems to be one of those skills that takes a while to get better at... of course, I probably wouldn't know because I don't like to spend a ton of time foraging.  I usually find one or two things after several tries and that's about all I can stand.

[Drayab]

Wisdom regulates how fast you learn, and here is a helpful helpfile.

How do I learn skills?
----------------------
   In almost every instance, skills and spells are learned by practice. If
your character has some basic knowledge of a skill or spell (i.e., if it
appears in your 'skills' list), then it will improve by doing it over and
over again. When you fail in an attempt to use a skill or spell, there is a
chance it will improve.

   Note that while repetition can improve skill, doing so to the exclusion
of other activities in the game is considered very poor role-playing, and
is looked on very negatively by the staff members. The aim of the game is
not just to accrue skills and skill points, although such will normally be
part of a character's life. As long as practice is done realistically, no
one will mind too much.

   It is when characters spar for several game days continuously, without a
break, or when characters cast spells again and again for several days,
that one must ask if such would be the case, realistically speaking.
Obviously, we are playing in a fictional game, but even so, would it be
realistic for someone to spar for days, without stopping to eat, sleep,
talk to friends, and so on? If in doubt, ask yourself if what you are about
to get your character to do is realistic.

   There are two exceptions to the practice rule. First, language skills
are learned only by listening to better speakers. It takes a very long time
to finally get the hang of a language (i.e., to have it appear in your
'skills' list), but after that the learning curve goes up very fast.

   Second, many spells and skills can be taught. You must already have some
basic knowledge for an expert to teach you. Experts are simply other
characters who are accomplished at the spell or skill you wish to learn. If
they agree to teach you, your ability can jump dramatically, with
instruction over time. When learning from another character, or teaching
another character, remember to role-play the lesson.

[solera]

Yeah, most skills seem to take a long time, and you just have to accept this is where you are. Struggling to make ends meet, to acquit yourself well, to make anything out of this hunk of rock.

[Dakota]

the more times you fail.. the more chances you have to learn.

[jstorrie]

Some skills gain at a faster rate than others.

Wisdom impacts your rate of skill gain.

Different classes have different maximum levels for skills, and you won't get a warning if you hit the 'cap'.

There is a limit on how much your skills improve in any given stretch of time. So you can't just go outside and forage two hundred times in one go and expect a big boost. If you regularly forage each day, however, your skill will increase steadily. (Details of this particular mechanic are not kosher for discussion.)

Skills are generally increased by failure: you learn from your mistakes. If you're always succeeding at a task you won't learn much from it, so seek challenging tasks if you want to improve.

Other PCs can increase your skills somewhat if they teach you (with the teach command). This is most effective when your skill is at a very low level and theirs is high, and I believe that both characters' wisdom is relevant.

If you don't have a skill on your skill list, you can't improve it (although everyone gets forage, as far as I know.)

Overall, my advice if you want to level up forage is to regularly go out foraging, but not overdo it on any given trip, since there's no benefit to that. Just gather what your PC would reasonably consider a day's take and then pack it in. You should progress steadily that way. But two more bits of advice: there's a lot more to this game than getting a high forage skill; and the Salt Flats are notoriously more dangerous than they appear. Watch out for raiders, gith, mekillots, rogue mages and salt worms! Master foraging doesn't do shit when you're dead...

[musashi]

What everyone else said. Fail a skill a few times per IC day then go do something else man.

[Saellyn]

I refuse to reveal that ^ ^ v v < > < > b a b a will give you 100 free rezzes.

[Yoman]

@Saellyn Oh, I'm not worried. And I think that code would be missing a 'select + start' anyway

Thanks for all the answers guys ( 'n gals), that's that cleared up for me.

Lock?

[jstorrie]

Sure, I can get this thread locked.

HEY GUYS WHO WANTS TO DISCUSS AMERICAN POLITICS?

[palomar]

If you don't have a skill on your skill list, you can't improve it (although everyone gets forage, as far as I know.)

I think the exceptions are the "ride" and "pilot" skills, though it's possible every guild normally starts with ride.

[NOFUN]

On second thoughts -- getting the thread locked isn't worth a ban.

[Feco]

My advice is to not try and focus at all on trying to understand the skill system as a new player.  If you're using skills, they will advance.

After several characters, you'll get the hang of things.  If you try and systematize skill-advancement (which I'm not saying your doing), you may very well do it wrong, and the focus of the game will shift from roleplay to trying to figure out the mechanics (which I'm sure can be fun on some level, but really isn't the point of the game).

It comes rather naturally after a while.  Just give it time.

[musashi]

Sure, I can get this thread locked.

HEY GUYS WHO WANTS TO DISCUSS AMERICAN POLITICS?

I almost spit up my drink through my nose. 

[Synthesis]

Most skills actually go up pretty quickly.

The basic melee combat skills are the only ones that really take a while...and even those don't take too long, if you're not doing a great deal of idling.

[Yoman]

Is foraging for a specific object better and/or easier than others? ( e.g. food gives more 'experience' than salt, but food is easier to find etc )

[musashi]

Hmm, that's probably getting into code areas better left to figure out on your own 

[jstorrie]

That's definitely find-out-through-play material. But don't worry, there isn't some zen twinkout forage method you're missing out on. Just forage a steady amount and you'll get good at foraging.

Skill advancement in general may seem somewhat slow in our system - keep in mind that each skill 'level' actually covers a certain range of that skill score. So don't be worried if it takes a while to get past your starter level category - if you're using the skill, you are making progress.

To be honest you may be overvaluing the importance of having one particular skill go up. Social connections are incredibly important in Zalanthas, often more so than coded power. They tend to lead to coded power, even. So if your PC is okay with foraging salt, keep foraging salt and turn your focus away from your character sheet. The system is designed such that your skills will for the most part develop organically from just livin' your life in-game.

[Yoman]

@musashi OK, wasn't sure if it was too far or not. Thanks.

@jstorrie So if I ignore my skills sheet for a while and just roleplay my character, next time I look at it some of my skills might have magically spontaneously gotten better. Alright, cool.

I wasn't necessarily worried about skills, I just didn't know if or how they were working. I'm still roleplaying.


One last quick question: Can we tell others our current character's name on the forum? Yes or no is fine.

[Nao]

One last quick question: Can we tell others our current character's name on the forum? Yes or no is fine.

No, absolutely not. The only exception to that is clan forums.
Even after the PC is dead, you shouldn't mention them for the time being.

[musashi]

Yeah we have a good rule of thumb about that sort of thing.

If you want to share IC info on the GDB (like who you played or stories about what happened in game) ... it has to be at least a year old, and all the characters involved in the story you're gonna tell have to be dead. 

[Bogre]

Also, there can be a big difference in skills that are labeled the same. Novice sword after 5 days of sparring will generally be a lot better than beginning novice sword.

[Cind]

I hate to spoil your skilling, but I've only had one character exceed three weeks in my first two years of Arming, and that was because I didn't let her leave her city or get her into trouble in the city. That would end whatever you're attempting to do, but the good thing about that is you can attempt to master something new which you couldn't with the dead character.

remember that some races are smarter than others, though I think the only true variation from the wisdom norm in stats anymore is the half-giant. humans are supposed to have the greatest variation in stats or something, its in the docs, though I'm not sure a human AI can be smarter than an elf AI, and even if they could, I imagine something about the human ability for detriment would balance it in another stat. i like not knowing :3

[perfecto]

I like not knowing :3

And not knowing is half the battle! YO JOE!

[Riev]

Humans are the most widely "varied" race when it comes to just about everything. And as every scientist will tell you, variation allows the cream to rise to the top.

Thus, humans are better than every other genetically STAGNANT race of thieves and slaves.

[IAmJacksOpinion]

Yeah, like it's been said, that little skill indicator is indicative of a range. So, if forage started at 5 and went to 50 "points", it would be something like
1-12 novice
13-25 apprentice
26-38 jman
39-49 advance
50  master
Note: I'm just shitting these out of imagination land.

So, even in moving from beginner apprentice to top end apprentice, your skill has still doubled. You are getting better, that notch is just a nice little thing to grin at when you first notice it. You're still only 1 point higher than when you checked your skill list half an hour ago.

Also, you'll notice improvement in salt foraging more from your average haul than your skill list. Personally, when I've played salt foragers it's been like: First it takes me two day-long trips to fill one bag of salt. Next, I can get a bag per day. Next, I can do a bag and a half in a day and so on.

As a side note, combat is the stuff that takes forever to budge. (I suspect combat skills have far larger point values, and take more to learn from.) Rightfully so, considering that combat IS the game-ender skill set. Even a bynner may take 5 days played, sparring EVERY day, to budge a combat skill a single notch. So, don't be dismayed if you feel like a weak little punk.


We used to not have those little indicators, and we had to just b-bop along and guess how good we were. I swear, staff only added them to cut back on the load of "Am I mastercraft yet? ..... How about now?" emails.

[IAmJacksOpinion]

Another useful tidbit - skill ranges are based on what the highest is for any class, not just yours.

For example, as a ranger your slashing weapon skill may max out lower than a warrior slashing weapon skill. So, with a ranger, you may only achieve "advanced" in a lot of combat skills. However, no other class will land master ride or skinning as a ranger will, because rangers are the guys who are masters at that shit.

So, your skills are basically competing against the highest class, and if it doesn't SEEM like a major, class specific skill, you'll probably never "master" it. If you have questions about which skills you can/can't master, just read the help files for the main classes. They give brief examples of what each class is able to do, and it's pretty easy to correspond that to a skill.

Assassins are expert killers, skilled in dealing swift and deadly blows to their victims. Among the other talents of an assassin, he/she can move without being heard, hide easily in the shadows, and employ a variety of thrown darts and small sharp weapons in order to strike at his/her enemies from a distance.

This paragraph is pretty obviously referring to backstab, sneak, hide, and throw. More likely than not, assassins are the masters of those skillz to which every other class will be held in comparison.

[Yoman]

Alright, cool. Thanks for the info, tips, hints, experiences and opinions everyone!

[X-D]

Yeah, like it's been said, that little skill indicator is indicative of a range. So, if forage started at 5 and went to 50 "points", it would be something like
1-12 novice
13-25 apprentice
26-38 jman
39-49 advance
50  master

Almost but not quite right.

Yeah, like it's been said, that little skill indicator is indicative of a range. So, if forage started at 5 and went to 50 "points", it would be something like
1-10 novice
11-20 apprentice
21-30 jm
31-40 advanced
41-50 master

Fixed it for ya.