Tangent: Quit Revamp that has nothing to do with Rangers

[Taven]

I think some points were getting lost in the other thread. This thread is about how to revamp quit in ways that has nothing to do with anyone being able to quit outdoors, or rangers, or adding that ability to subguilds.

I think it'd be neat to have () and [] emotes for quit.

Code Select Expand

> quit (flopping wearily onto her bunk)
Flopping wearily onto her bunk, the round, cockeyed dwarf has departed from the land of Zalanthas.
Come back soon!

You may:
     (C) Disconnect from character      (V) Toggle ANSI/VT100 mode   
     (B) Toggle 'brief' menus           (D) Documentation menu       
     (M) Mail menu                      (S) Stats of your character   
     (E) Enter Zalanthas                (X) Exit Armageddon           
     (?) Read menu options         

Armageddon is OPEN.

This would be awesome. I think it could work, just maybe not with targeted emotes. Think about how you can move from room to room with the ( ) commands, but can't target anything. If you could target things in the same room as where you're quitting, that would be even more amazing, but I don't know the coding complexity of either option.

I don't like that when I'm sparring I get "You're too excited to leave!" and I have to hang around until that timer is gone. Having played several militia PCs, I can say that it's really annoying when you have real life things to do, and can't quit because you were sparring. I've seen people just opt to go LD in the barracks, since there's no hunger code after an hour and they needed to go do things. This works, but it seems silly to me.

Why not just make it so that in a fight with only sparring weapons involved, you don't get the "It's too excited to leave!" message?

I'm not sure how hard that would be to code, but I don't think it would be abused. I mean, certainly there's probably a way that someone could think of to try, but I don't think it would be common, and staff could handle the oddball abusers.

I still want this.


Discuss and feel free to add your own things, if it's about quitting changes and not related to rangers/the ooc quitting idea/anyone quitting outdoors.

[jhunter]

Thumbs up to the first idea.
As for the second, would it be possible to flag "training halls" so that when combat is done in those rooms the "But you're too excited to leave!" delay is negated? As an alternative to flagging "training weapons". I was thinking about unarmed combat training as well.

[drunkendwarf]

Thumbs up to the first idea.
As for the second, would it be possible to flag "training halls" so that when combat is done in those rooms the "But you're too excited to leave!" delay is negated? As an alternative to flagging "training weapons". I was thinking about unarmed combat training as well.

Or for folks that train with real weapons, as they're out there.

[racurtne]

Also, you don't want training weapons flagged because you can still kill with them and the potential for abuse would be there.

[jhunter]

Also, you don't want training weapons flagged because you can still kill with them and the potential for abuse would be there.

Another very good point.

[Taven]

Thumbs up to the first idea.
As for the second, would it be possible to flag "training halls" so that when combat is done in those rooms the "But you're too excited to leave!" delay is negated? As an alternative to flagging "training weapons". I was thinking about unarmed combat training as well.

Or for folks that train with real weapons, as they're out there.

Flagging a training area might work better then, as it has the same effect but more versatility. The only issue with that is if an actual fight occurs in a training area, which can happen if someone goes crazy. However, if they try to quit out right after that, I think that staff would catch on pretty quick or a player complaint could be made.

Also, you don't want training weapons flagged because you can still kill with them and the potential for abuse would be there.

Another very good point.

I think the "training area" idea works better, but I don't think that it's terribly likely that someone is going to go around trying to kill people with training weapons, just so that they can instantly quit out. In the original idea, part of it was that if a real weapon was involved, then this wouldn't apply. IE, random crazy dude comes in and attacks you with a training weapon, you draw your real sword, it's a fight with real weaponry and you still get the "you're too excited to leave" message. If someone is attacking and then fleeing before a real weapon can be drawn, and then quitting out, or otherwise abusing the original idea, then I think player complaints would take care of it pretty quickly.

But yes, the "training area" idea seems to make more sense as a whole. I would like to see that.

[Morgenes]

It could also be that you only get the quit timer if a certain % health is reached on either side while in that training area.  So long as each side stays above say 50-75% health, no timer is given.

[Dar]

Problem with that, is sometimes people have their first blood drawn and then the fight stopped, just to make sure the victim does not quit out. This way, you'd need to drop them below 50%-75% for that, which I think defeats the purpose.


Honestly, it'll be easier to just go <quit delay> which puts you in a 10 minute delay timer and then quits you out.

[Delusion]

Problem with that, is sometimes people have their first blood drawn and then the fight stopped, just to make sure the victim does not quit out. This way, you'd need to drop them below 50%-75% for that, which I think defeats the purpose.


Honestly, it'll be easier to just go <quit delay> which puts you in a 10 minute delay timer and then quits you out.

He specified in a training area.

[Thunkkin]

Yeah, I think this may be a time where the massive convenience to a huge portion of the player base trumps the danger of training room assassin cheaters. If someone is flaky, complain to staff. It will be rare and, I would think, handled fairly easily. Don't staff at least glance at every PK anyway?

And back on topic, I really like this: quit (falling into %you arms on the bed with a cry of lustful passion on ^me face despite a certain bored, deadness in ^me eyes)

[a strange shadow]

Quit emotes would have to be handled with care, IMO, so that they don't become this odd blend of OOC and IC.

I'd rather see:
quit (waving as !me heads out the door)
Waving as he heads out the door, the tall, muscular man leaves the area.

i.e. the coded echo would be an IC 'the tall, muscular man leaves the area.'

Frankly this is one of those cases where I actually prefer to see the emote and coded echo remain separate as it currently is, since it allows you to emote your IC action, then perform the OOC action (quitting).

[Timetwister]

This would be awesome. I've had to leave the game due to real life and it pretty much got my PC killed.. unfortunate but thems the breaks if you're not a ranger.

[Taven]

It could also be that you only get the quit timer if a certain % health is reached on either side while in that training area.  So long as each side stays above say 50-75% health, no timer is given.

I think this would be reasonable. Usually if you're sparring you won't get down to 50%, unless you're REALLY going at it, or someone gets a really lucky hit (or if for some reason you decided sparring with a half-giant was a good idea). While it could happen that you got hit that bad and needed to log, I think if you're being careful enough, it shouldn't happen to often. If it's really serious, you can also always wish up.

Problem with that, is sometimes people have their first blood drawn and then the fight stopped, just to make sure the victim does not quit out. This way, you'd need to drop them below 50%-75% for that, which I think defeats the purpose.


Honestly, it'll be easier to just go <quit delay> which puts you in a 10 minute delay timer and then quits you out.

He specified in a training area.

I'm not sure a "quit delay" would be effective in a sparring scenario. If you go LD for 10 minutes and then it quits you out, nobody can interact with you during those 10 minutes anyway, and it's super bad form to attack/injure an LD PC (and even worse to use going LD like quitting out suddenly).

My ultimate vote is either for a flagged "training area" exemption to "you are too excited to leave," or a "training area" exemption with an over 50% caveat, like Morg suggested.

Quit emotes would have to be handled with care, IMO, so that they don't become this odd blend of OOC and IC.

I'd rather see:
quit (waving as !me heads out the door)
Waving as he heads out the door, the tall, muscular man leaves the area.

i.e. the coded echo would be an IC 'the tall, muscular man leaves the area.'

Frankly this is one of those cases where I actually prefer to see the emote and coded echo remain separate as it currently is, since it allows you to emote your IC action, then perform the OOC action (quitting).

I don't mind an echo of "leaves the area," but my concern would be that people, especially newbies, might be confused and not understand what was going on with it. I'm okay with having the "departed the land of Zalanthas" echo with something like "the tall muscular man rolls over to sleep," because as a player, I know that they're saying what they're doing when they quit. I guess I can see how it might be awkward for some people, but it doesn't personally bother me.

[jhunter]

It could also be that you only get the quit timer if a certain % health is reached on either side while in that training area.  So long as each side stays above say 50-75% health, no timer is given.

The only problem I have with this is we don't have control over how hard our pcs hit and a match could be going just fine but then if one crazy hard shot lands and knocks somebody under that limit, they won't be able to quit out of the game if they have to go. Might be something that would have to be toyed with and tweaked a little to find a happy medium.

[Marc]

Can quit be changed so it is not strictly Yes/No?  In other words can it be made so you type quit and if you have a timer or some other code factor keeping you in the game, the quit will not fail but be delayed until said timers have expired.

Example:

Amos was sparring and now his player has to log.  Right now.  "quit" is typed in the barracks and you're given the "But you're to excited to quit just yet." or whatever it is.  Instead of that being that have the "quit" command queued so it fires as soon as the combat flag expires.

You still need to be in a quit-safe room.  You're still in the game so no one can quit out from danger.  But you can now go to work, the hospital or deal with whatever emergency came up and you know your pc will not just be link-dead until the next time you can get to a computer.

This possible or just a coding nightmare?

[Sokotra]

The timer is a good idea...  so I'm not sitting there staring at an unchanging screen when I should be taking care of real-life stuff that is more important.  However, the problem is that I might still be sitting there staring at the unmoving screen just to make sure I get quit-out of the game safely.  If I really gotta go but I'm waiting to make sure the raider, assassin, or tracking-beast doesn't hunt me down and find me, then the timer idea still won't help much.  I would still want to be there at the keyboard to run away or fight effectively.  Hmm... but it is still better than nothing.

[Marc]

The timer is a good idea...  so I'm not sitting there staring at an unchanging screen when I should be taking care of real-life stuff that is more important.  However, the problem is that I might still be sitting there staring at the unmoving screen just to make sure I get quit-out of the game safely.  If I really gotta go but I'm waiting to make sure the raider, assassin, or tracking-beast doesn't hunt me down and find me, then the timer idea still won't help much.  I would still want to be there at the keyboard to run away or fight effectively.  Hmm... but it is still better than nothing.

That's just how the cookie crumbles.  You start a conflict in game (or have one started for you) and you have to go, right then, well.  You might lose the character if it's that kind of conflict.  Priorities in life.  Can't have everything.  Stay and protect your character or go deal with Real Life.  This idea would not offer any protect other than removing you from the game world in the same time period you could remove yourself.  That also means it couldn't really be abused (am I missing something here?).

[Timetwister]

As if ranger quit doesn't get abused already in conflicts?

[Taven]

As if ranger quit doesn't get abused already in conflicts?

Re: Tangent: Quit Revamp that has nothing to do with Rangers

I think the thread you're looking for is over here: http://www.zalanthas.org/gdb/index.php/topic,41106.0.html

This thread is:

...about how to revamp quit in ways that has nothing to do with anyone being able to quit outdoors, or rangers, or adding that ability to subguilds.

I don't want to get derailed in a ranger discussion again.

Edited to add:

Please feel free to contribute, and say how you're concerned that the ideas posed here may be abused. Just don't relate it back to rangers, please! 

[Reiteration]

I'm against adding command emotes to quit, it breaks down IC and OOC barriers. I prefer to use an emote and then type quit. That and I can see it being abused to make escaping a situation that much easier.

During a confrontation with a raider near tuluk.
quit (turning heel and diving into a nearby bush)

[Taven]

I'm against adding command emotes to quit, it breaks down IC and OOC barriers. I prefer to use an emote and then type quit. That and I can see it being abused to make escaping a situation that much easier.

During a confrontation with a raider near tuluk.
quit (turning heel and diving into a nearby bush)

If someone abused it like that, they would be reported and get in trouble, same as if they abused quit without the emote. I can see the concern about maybe newbies doing this, and confusing newbies about IC/OOC, and I think that point has some validity. Still, I don't think it's not doable. Potentially anything could be abused.

[Reiteration]

The same as how a ranger could just flee self with quit on the command stack

[jhunter]

The same as how a ranger could just flee self with quit on the command stack

Code Select Expand

>flee self;quit

You flee, exiting west.

But you're too excited to leave just yet!

[SMuz]

I think he means "run; north; west; quit". It's a more likely way to get away with it. A raider might think that they did some of that ranger outdoors hide magic and be a little more reluctant to report it.

[jhunter]

I was wondering because those are two different scenarios. One being possible and the other not.

[Reiloth]

Back on topic...

I love this idea! And, I think 'leave the area' is a much, much better Quit Tag than 'departed the land of Zalanthas'. I find it, still, very jarring.

[hyzhenhok]

I've advocated a "quit timer" for a long time. A "force quit" that will say, "You will quit the game as soon as you are eligible to do so, unless your character is the target of hostilities in the meantime."

This is perfect for those situations where you MUST leave after doing some sparring or hunting but you're safely hunkered down in the clan barracks. For other situations where it might be possible to abuse, the only difference with the current code is it doesn't require the PC to sit at the keyboard and spam quit until his timer is up.

[Taven]

I've advocated a "quit timer" for a long time. A "force quit" that will say, "You will quit the game as soon as you are eligible to do so, unless your character is the target of hostilities in the meantime."

This is perfect for those situations where you MUST leave after doing some sparring or hunting but you're safely hunkered down in the clan barracks. For other situations where it might be possible to abuse, the only difference with the current code is it doesn't require the PC to sit at the keyboard and spam quit until his timer is up.

Well, I think the argument is that if you're doing safe sparring anyway, why have the quit-delay at all? What does it bring the game to have my PC stand there 10 minutes (or whatever the timer is) when they're LD? There's not going to be an NPC to hassle you, if you're in your own barracks. Any other PC can't interact with you, because you're LD. If they do attack you, a link dead PC, then that's a major no-no.

Something like a quit timer would make more sense for the outdoors, if you suddenly had to leave, but that's sort of what the whole discussion in the other thread was about. It seems like Staff won't be implementing it in Arm 1, and I don't remember what the conclusion about Arm 2 was. But yeah, something like that in the wilderness would be neat.

[hyzhenhok]

I've advocated a "quit timer" for a long time. A "force quit" that will say, "You will quit the game as soon as you are eligible to do so, unless your character is the target of hostilities in the meantime."

This is perfect for those situations where you MUST leave after doing some sparring or hunting but you're safely hunkered down in the clan barracks. For other situations where it might be possible to abuse, the only difference with the current code is it doesn't require the PC to sit at the keyboard and spam quit until his timer is up.

Well, I think the argument is that if you're doing safe sparring anyway, why have the quit-delay at all? What does it bring the game to have my PC stand there 10 minutes (or whatever the timer is) when they're LD? There's not going to be an NPC to hassle you, if you're in your own barracks. Any other PC can't interact with you, because you're LD. If they do attack you, a link dead PC, then that's a major no-no.

Something like a quit timer would make more sense for the outdoors, if you suddenly had to leave, but that's sort of what the whole discussion in the other thread was about. It seems like Staff won't be implementing it in Arm 1, and I don't remember what the conclusion about Arm 2 was. But yeah, something like that in the wilderness would be neat.

People in clans might be theoretically perfectly safe going linkdead, but what about someone in an apartment? If he goes linkdead instead of quitting, and someone breaks in, he's vulnerable. Or someone who doesn't own their own apartment? Going linkdead in a street, or in a public quit room, might be more risky than we'd like to admit. And while usually you'd be perfectly safe resting in that wilderness hidey-hole and then quitting out, would you even consider going linkdead there? These are all situations where the combat timer is serving as nothing but a 5-10 minute inconvenience for the player. I'd like to see a way around that.

Unfortunately I'm not assuaged by the idea that PCs aren't supposed to mess with linkdead people. If your PC is still in the game, other PCs have the right to act ICly. It's not okay to do stuff to you because you are linkdead, but generally linkdeadness is explained away as an IC phenomenon and anything that happens to your linkdead PC, happens.

I'm not really interested in giving PCs a regular way to circumvent wilderness quit restrictions. Staff might be nice and log you out for you, but it's not something I'd want to put in the hands of PCs.

[Taven]

People in clans might be theoretically perfectly safe going linkdead, but what about someone in an apartment? If he goes linkdead instead of quitting, and someone breaks in, he's vulnerable. Or someone who doesn't own their own apartment? Going linkdead in a street, or in a public quit room, might be more risky than we'd like to admit. And while usually you'd be perfectly safe resting in that wilderness hidey-hole and then quitting out, would you even consider going linkdead there? These are all situations where the combat timer is serving as nothing but a 5-10 minute inconvenience for the player. I'd like to see a way around that.

I think that the function of marking an area as a training zone, if that's the best option, would be primarily to help out clans. I think that it should be put in, as there's no real argument against it, that I've heard.

I think what you're suggesting, a quit-delay thing, could be helpful for a city or an area that was marked as "safe". What do I mean by that? I mean an area where you won't encounter hostile NPCs. IE, the streets of the rinth maybe not, but the streets of the city, sure. I'd also argue that if you're in a "quit out" spot and go LD, that that would count as a "safe" spot. For "unsafe" areas, I think that the quit-delay should be longer. If it was something like an hour, then nobody would want to put their PC at risk by intentionally going LD, but if it was an emergency, you'd have some level of assurance that your PC might be fine.

Unfortunately I'm not assuaged by the idea that PCs aren't supposed to mess with linkdead people. If your PC is still in the game, other PCs have the right to act ICly. It's not okay to do stuff to you because you are linkdead, but generally linkdeadness is explained away as an IC phenomenon and anything that happens to your linkdead PC, happens.

I'm unclear on the distinction that you're making. If a PC is LD, they cannot respond. It might be IC for your PC to have a conversation with them, and order an item, but it's simply impossible to do with a linkdead PC. Likewise, it makes no sense to me to do bad things to a LD PC. The exception could be if you had no idea they were linkdead, and wanted to do a bad thing before they had the chance to react. Then you didn't know, and if you had an IC reason for acting fast, then that's fine. But generally, you should leave LD PCs alone. Likewise, going LD to avoid conflict or something is a huge no-no. I think we, as players, understand that sometimes LDness happens, and it's only fair to make allowances for it. However, abusing that treatment is absolutely horrible. I know I'd file a player complaint over someone going LD just to avoid situations.

I'm not really interested in giving PCs a regular way to circumvent wilderness quit restrictions. Staff might be nice and log you out for you, but it's not something I'd want to put in the hands of PCs.

I'd just like is something that would work when you have an emergency or extenuating circumstances.

[SMuz]

I've advocated a "quit timer" for a long time. A "force quit" that will say, "You will quit the game as soon as you are eligible to do so, unless your character is the target of hostilities in the meantime."

This is perfect for those situations where you MUST leave after doing some sparring or hunting but you're safely hunkered down in the clan barracks. For other situations where it might be possible to abuse, the only difference with the current code is it doesn't require the PC to sit at the keyboard and spam quit until his timer is up.

I like this. It may not be that useful in safe areas, but in places like outdoors (with a ranger) or in the rinth (hiding in a quit room), it's far more useful.

[Kalai]

You can add a quit delay clientside, as far as I know, so I don't see any unique harm in it.