Further plot talks!

[Lukoyin]

Just curious to see how the playerbase as a whole would get their "kicks".

[Erythil]

I would choose multiple options, as there are multiple roads to enjoyment.

[Cutthroat]

Personally, I think "the bigger, the better". When there's a lot of PCs working towards something and it's fun for the players involved, interesting things can happen.

But I think all kinds of plots are equally valid and potentially very fun. And I definitely think players should be leading the way in plot-starting (and currently do).

[number13]

I don't think any of the poll options reflect the actual requirement for a plot.  It's not a question of staff or no staff, or number of players involved.

There needs to a be a conflict for there to be a plot.  Two Amoses jabbering at the tavern is a not a plot. It might be part of a plot, but it's not a plot in and of itself.  If the pair start a drinking contest, then we have ourselves a (tiny, but potentially fun) plot.  A plot doesn't require multiple PCs.  Arm is full of man-vs-environment miniplots. However, the plots that are really fun involve an ever widening circle of individuals working at cross-purpose, or at very least a single individual working towards a lofty goal.  Survive while lost in a storm with no water and hunted by raptors is a pretty lofty goal.  Kill 200 gortoks so you can level up your skinning skill and branch X is not a lofty story goal.

The "job" (or rather, the fun bit) for staff should be to provided McGuffins that prompt conflict.  The Grey Hunt is a good example, albeit one that is too dependent on competitor survival.  The best McMuffins survive past the fleeting ambitions of individual, mortal PCs.

[SMuz]

IMO, tavern sitting is just the grease/glue between plots. If nobody has any plots, then all they do is sit and talk about nothing. You can have a gemmer and a commoner in the same room, and it's basically just "name? asl?" since they have nothing to relate. Or say, a clan guard and a merchant, all they can talk about is rumors, especially new characters.

But if say, one guy has a conflict with elves, and there's an elf, there's a possible plot line. Or better yet, if there's a merchant looking for a hunter, and someone hiring out as a hunter, then you have a possible small plot glued together in that tavern. If there are several people who share the same goals in the same tavern, it develops into a plot.

That said, it's just a central meeting point. You could form plots at other meeting points, like at a chokepoint on the roads, or near that obsidian deposit, or hell, a lot of people get them while foraging. I think that's why contacts are important, someone could be all "I see you fail hiding and following me around there with that dagger in hand. I'm not looking for an assassin, but my friend Amos is".

And once people graduate from PvE and make more money than they need, they move to the PvP aspect. PvP is not simply killing; it could be a cold war kind of conflict, employing and training sneaky types to intimidate or spy on the opponent. It's entertaining for anyone who plays a sneak, as well as the ones defending against them, and the ones sponsoring them. Once you get a goal, it's the paths you take towards that goal that makes it exciting.

[HavokBlue]

I don't think any of the poll options reflect the actual requirement for a plot.  It's not a question of staff or no staff, or number of players involved.

There needs to a be a conflict for there to be a plot.  Two Amoses jabbering at the tavern is a not a plot. It might be part of a plot, but it's not a plot in and of itself.  If the pair start a drinking contest, then we have ourselves a (tiny, but potentially fun) plot.  A plot doesn't require multiple PCs.  Arm is full of man-vs-environment miniplots. However, the plots that are really fun involve an ever widening circle of individuals working at cross-purpose, or at very least a single individual working towards a lofty goal.  Survive while lost in a storm with no water and hunted by raptors is a pretty lofty goal.  Kill 200 gortoks so you can level up your skinning skill and branch X is not a lofty story goal.

The "job" (or rather, the fun bit) for staff should be to provided McGuffins that prompt conflict.  The Grey Hunt is a good example, albeit one that is too dependent on competitor survival.  The best McMuffins survive past the fleeting ambitions of individual, mortal PCs.

In my opinion... thisthisthisthisthis. All of it. I really like things that are player-driven, but there are a lot of cool things that could be primarily player-driven if staff started the metaphorical fire. Something like a lost treasure to fight over, or another 'natural' disaster, or some edict/ruling from the AFK sorceror-kings.

It just seems like nothing happens in the world beyond player-to-player interactions, and it sort of makes it feel like the scope of things is significantly smaller as a result.

[Marshmellow]

All there need be, as said, is conflict.  Conflict doesn't even have to be Character vs Character.  It could be Character vs Environment.  Go back to your old middle and high school lit classes.

I did not vote.

[SMuz]

I think the best ones are more Cooperation than simply Conflict. The fun really starts when you bring along a friend. If you raid/hunt/forage with two people, it's more than twice as fun than raiding alone.

[Akaramu]

I disagree that ONLY staff should start plots, but everything else IS a plot for me. Plots don't have to be about conflict. A merchant / bard travelling the world to find the perfect inspiration for a mastercraft painting would be a beautiful plot, for instance.

I miss the good old times when staff ran some plots, though. I miss talking to NPC superiors every once in awhile. I miss seeing effects of the virtual world come to life in visible ways. But I guess with staff attention divided between Arm 1 and 2, this just isn't possible anymore. 

[Zoltan]

Boss-NPC interactions are definitely -rarer- now, but they can still happen. I had one really good one with my last PC, which was a lot better than a dozen mediocre ones would have been! I'm still a big fanboy of the current clan-running system.

I try not to say much about the plot-policy because lately I just haven't had the time and desire to get seriously involved in the game. If you ask me, that's a requisite: being around. A lot. In a more player-driven sort of world, you really need to be available to the pbase. So, I temper what little bit of "meh" I got about my perceptions of plots within the game with the knowledge that I hardly play and THAT'S EXACTLY THE PERCEPTION I WOULD HAVE!   Kind of a self-perpetuating cycle there.

Anyway, conflict. Conflict's important, but I've often felt some conflict to be a little artificial and forced. At least people are trying, though. One thing someone mentioned are MacGuffins, and those are good. The right MacGuffin can really get the ball rolling on things. But here's the thing: a MacGuffin doesn't have to actually exist within the game to be a MacGuffin! In my last leader role I outright told the staff that I would fabricate a plausible one if I absolutely needed to, to give my PC and his clannies a goal. Now, I'm sure if it was reasonable and the footwork was done and it drew some interest, well... maybe that MacGuffin might actually end up coded somewhere? But again, that's not really the point. The point is to do shit to work towards it!

Another thing I want to stress as far as plot-making goes is that if you're playing a leader PC, and the staff (as your IG boss) gives you something of a soft "no", it doesn't mean you've hit a dead end. Just think of it realistically. How afraid is your PC of their boss? How much could you manage to work against their wishes? The important part here is open, frequent communication with the staff. If something's a coded impossibility and you keep picking at it, they'll probably give you a very clear "sorry, no". But other than that, it just may turn into an internal conflict for the clan. Again, the key is keeping them informed of your IC and OOC intentions. They'll decide what makes sense to be learned "IC" on the part of the clan. It takes some trust, and things may not always turn out well... but isn't that how every worthwhile conflict plays out on Arm?

EDIT: Correction.

[Malifaxis]

Plot:  a: Anything that has a lasting impact on the game, socially, environmentally, or politically.
        b: Anything that furthers the atmosphere of Armageddon.

There's your definition.  You can succeed at either of those definitions from a solo standpoint or from a group standpoint.

[My 2 sids]

Here's the thing:

"Go find this flower"
"Give me updates on what you hear"
"I don't like your hat so now we're mortal enemies"

Although, they may technically fit the conflict/plot definitions they don't have a lot of substance.  And honestly,  I'd rather be involved in only one or two great plots than a lot of these little plots.
Because otherwise what happens is we seem to become NPCs in one another's worlds.

[Cutthroat]

Here's the thing:

"Go find this flower"
"Give me updates on what you hear"
"I don't like your hat so now we're mortal enemies"

Although, they may technically fit the conflict/plot definitions they don't have a lot of substance.  And honestly,  I'd rather be involved in only one or two great plots than a lot of these little plots.
Because otherwise what happens is we seem to become NPCs in one another's worlds.

The whole point of a plot is to have that substance, though.

"Go find this flower" is a WoW quest.
"Go find this flower so that we can make cures/spices/give it as a gift... and then maybe do something else depending on how that turns out" is a plot, or part of one, at least.
.
Oftentimes players aren't going to get the entire reasoning behind a plot because they aren't in a position where they are going to be privy to such information. When you're involved as much as possible, you can get more information that enhances your understanding of the story around you. Sometimes it's as simple as asking a question.

[solera]

Plots start from PCs wanting something.

[Cindy42]

You know who or what killed your best friend, you've stolen from the Byn, or you're a spice runner in the rinth and southside.

you're bat-shit crazy for some reason and have decided to shadow and kill anyone who's wearing red, because your mother was wearing red when you was a child when she got killed. you then crept from your hiding place and killed the killer behind their back, never to live normally again.

you've killed and beheaded a templar in 'nak, took the head to tuluk, and given it over to Utep. you've then killed a tuluki templar, beheaded them, went back to nak, and thrown the head into the gates. you then fled to red storm and lived there quietly until they send an assassin to slit your throat.

[Dresan]

Here's the thing:

"Go find this flower"
"Give me updates on what you hear"
"I don't like your hat so now we're mortal enemies"

Although, they may technically fit the conflict/plot definitions they don't have a lot of substance.  And honestly,  I'd rather be involved in only one or two great plots than a lot of these little plots.
Because otherwise what happens is we seem to become NPCs in one another's worlds.

The whole point of a plot is to have that substance, though.

"Go find this flower" is a WoW quest.
"Go find this flower so that we can make cures/spices/give it as a gift... and then maybe do something else depending on how that turns out" is a plot, or part of one, at least.
.
Oftentimes players aren't going to get the entire reasoning behind a plot because they aren't in a position where they are going to be privy to such information. When you're involved as much as possible, you can get more information that enhances your understanding of the story around you. Sometimes it's as simple as asking a question.

I think what Sids means that this is about as deep as some 'plots' get these days. No amount of questioning or involvement really changes that fact. The two types of plots i've encountered before in the past can mostly be separated into two categories, World Plots and Personal plots. World plots are things like the copper wars, rarer now then days in the past. Personal plots such as Amos trying to kill bob in order to try to take merchant bob's mate amosita for himself are often what we are left with.


The thing that most hinders these personal plots the most though is the fact that a lot of players log in once a week or once every two weeks, pay their rent and hang around a bit then log out for another week or two. So either a personal plot has no time to develop into something truly deep and enjoyable or worse a personal plot is forced making it feel rather trivial and pointless. It is hard to get involved in personal plots when you don't have time to develop relationships (in whatever shape or form) that might be with others. Let me give an example:


Ex. After one meeting with Amosita, warrior Amos decided to kill merchant Bob who is a lot more active and trying to run some large plots. Bob gets killed so no more large plots, amosita isn't ever able to find out who or why, just that there is one less person to play with, and amos pats himself on the back, pays his rent and logs out for another two weeks.  

I suppose at the end its better then nothing but LeSigh. This is just one example, but it is really hard to find people who stick around long enough to develop any sort of relationship with, whatever that relationship might be business, rivals or otherwise. The people that do stick around and are active are probably the people dying first for whatever reason or are the quiet people who simply wait for things to happen in the world.

[Barzalene]

I'd love to see more personal plots become larger.

Like Amos steals Amosita from Bob, and violence ensues. Because it turns out that Amosita is from Storm, and Bob is a tribal and Amos is from Nak, there are sides chosen and suddenly the tribals are attacking stormers in the sand because really it's all Amosita's fault that Bob is dead. And then Kurac has to get involved, and with each step of the escalation more old grudges and justifications are brought in, like how back when Tuluk threw off the Naki occupation, Kurac closed their gates to the Naki troops and so and so's great grandpa Randy Fale, who was leading that contingent of troops, was decapitated and his ring was never found. While in the background, Kadius is feeding the fire because now they can take a much bigger profit on exported items.

(I hope I'm not over-caffeinated and babbling like an idiot here.)

[Dresan]

(I hope I'm not over-caffeinated and babbling like an idiot here.)

You are not babbling since i feel the same way.  


I've said before that people might be resorting to killing to oquickly mostly because this is still the easiest way to achieve anything. Killing merchant bob instead of humiliating him in front of his mate would be the easiest thing for Amos to attempt due to time restraints and just plain effectiveness. The thing is that the people most likely to ever end up getting targeted or just simply dropping dead are the active players, thus preventing anyone from really being able to drive large plots.  Someone mentioned somewhere that they thought people were doing a lot less killing, i think overall there might be a lot less dying of everyone except those that stand out and have the time and energy to achieve something. Then they end up coming on to the forums giving a little rant and disappearing for a while or just playing a throw away character instead of making trying to achieve something big.

I don't know I could be completely wrong... it is just a thought like i had said before, however for the most part i wish people would indeed be trying other avenues of conflict resolution then just killing people quietly in some remote corner if only to allow plots and conflicts to get bigger.

[Taven]

Plot:  a: Anything that has a lasting impact on the game, socially, environmentally, or politically.
        b: Anything that furthers the atmosphere of Armageddon.

There's your definition.  You can succeed at either of those definitions from a solo standpoint or from a group standpoint.

I'd argue with how things were phrased. For example, your "a" plot definition could simply be an event. An event in and of itself isn't a plot. If a statue is erected, it isn't a plot. The plot would only be if there was a PC involvement with putting the statue up--IE, a plot to get the materials and collect them, a plot to involve various houses and who does what work, coordination with templars for if you can put the statue here or there, working out who will build the statue, etc. If the event of a statue being erected had no PC involvement, it would just be an event, and not a plot. Events usually make plots, or are the results of plots, but are not plots in and of themselves.

With "b" you say that anything that furthers the atmosphere of Armageddon is a plot, but a lot of simple things can do that and I would argue that they aren't necessarily plots. If my PC spits on a breed for being a breed, that's an action that furthers the atmosphere, but it's not a plot. If the breed develops a plan to get back at me that involves others, that would be a plot. If I decide I want to lure the breed into a brawl and spitting on him was one part of my plan, then it would be a step in that miniature plot.

I hope that makes some sense. To some extend it doesn't matter, because it's sort of a semantics thing.

I've said before that people might be resorting to killing to oquickly mostly because this is still the easiest way to achieve anything. [...]

I don't know I could be completely wrong... it is just a thought like i had said before, however for the most part i wish people would indeed be trying other avenues of conflict resolution then just killing people quietly in some remote corner if only to allow plots and conflicts to get bigger.

This thread talks about the killing tendencies and possible alternatives/reasons that people kill. Killing is sometimes a necessary plot component, but I would personally like to see a way that people could be given better end scenes, if killing is something that has to be done. My PC's not going to give you a final closing scene if during that scene you can Way <person> and have them get revenge for my killing of you. It's cleaner to kill you with no explanation, and that really sucks for you. I wish that there was a mundane way (or a more commonly known mundane way) to prevent the use of the Way, so that people could be given better end scenes.

I think what Sids means that this is about as deep as some 'plots' get these days. No amount of questioning or involvement really changes that fact. The two types of plots i've encountered before in the past can mostly be separated into two categories, World Plots and Personal plots. World plots are things like the copper wars, rarer now then days in the past. Personal plots such as Amos trying to kill bob in order to try to take merchant bob's mate amosita for himself are often what we are left with.

I think that there are definitely different sized plots, something that the OP's question doesn't take into account. I'd argue that your "World Plot" and "Personal Plot" labels could even be broken down further. Personal plots can be bigger or smaller. A small personal plot might be thinking of a way to embarrass your hated nemesis publicly, such as by getting them drunk or by hiring a bard to sing a scornful song about them. A bigger personal plot might be to hire an independent grebber group or the Byn to collect a variety of different furs so that you can try out different things for your mastercraft design.

Then you'd have your next level of plots, clan plots. Maybe the militia decides that spider activity has been up. They might do a small clan plot, riding out and putting down a few spiders solo. They might do a bigger clan plot, and decide that there are too many spiders, and connect with other clans in the city, such as hiring the Byn or working with Tor. Then you get your larger location clan plots. Maybe a group of NPC raiders has been active outside of Tuluk, and on the route to Luirs. The Tuluki legions might involve noble House guards, and then also talk with Kurac, since it's a shared concern.

I'd argue that the next level would be city plots. This would be things like the Gith War in Allanak, or maybe the Mantis Occupation of Luirs (this was before my time, but you get the idea). The final level of plots would be World Plots, when everyone is all mucked up in things. Allanak taking over Tuluk would be one, and the Copper War would be another.

Thus, plots aren't defined by size, but plot types can be different sizes. Sort of like how apples and oranges are both fruit, if that makes sense.

[Bilanthri]

See? That was nothing. But that's how it always begins. Very small.

[spacewars]

See? That was nothing. But that's how it always begins. Very small.

What movie is that from

[EvilRoeSlade]

Big Trouble in Little China Town.

[spacewars]

Thanks i'll have to watch it now

[Bilanthri]

Big Trouble in Little China.

One of my all-time favorites.

[spacewars]

Anything with Mr. Miagi (Spelled wrong) is bad ass

[Bilanthri]

Heh...that isn't Pat Morita. But he's awesome, none the less.

[wizturbo]

I miss the good old times when staff ran some plots, though. I miss talking to NPC superiors every once in awhile. I miss seeing effects of the virtual world come to life in visible ways. But I guess with staff attention divided between Arm 1 and 2, this just isn't possible anymore. 

I also miss this greatly.

[Nyr]

Locked over the derail.