I just don't buy it...

[brytta.leofa]

My main point was that people wouldn't put up with this.

Many people in our world really do put up with this.  It's maybe exaggerated in the game; the ratio of PC templars to PC commoners is pretty high.

[Rhyden]

Nobody would put up with the system in Allanak. They're allowed too much freedom. They can come and go as they please, hire protection, organize and conspire. The Templars are grossly outnumbered and- when it comes down to it- completely overplay their hand on an individual basis. If you're going to have people who demand that much ass-kissing and actually get away with it, you'd need the political system to be so overbearing and rigid that you wouldn't have a game.

I've played a few Allanaki Templars in the past five years, so maybe I can put in some valuable input here. Contrary to popular belief, as a 'Nakki Templar, you're extremely limited in what you can do. There are places you shouldn't go, people you shouldn't talk to, several things you shouldn't do, and even more you shouldn't say. For these reasons, being a Templar in Allanak can be extremely boring if you're the kind who likes to "do stuff" all the time. I'll also let you know, that the templars who overplay their hands, and abuse their power, are often the same ones who are murdered or store quickly. If I were to guess at how many PC Templars have come and gone in the past five years alone, I'd have to say around 50. That's probably as many if not more than the amount of Byn Sergeants who've come and gone.

A month of this bull and you'd have every able-bodied commoner plotting to go set up their own government in Red Storm or Luirs. Failing that they'd found their own town.

Try several hundreds of years. And it has happened. There have been riots in the past, and even semi recently. There have been terrorist attacks, and refugees fleeing Allanak for greener pastures, sure. I've even seen an Allanaki Templar defect. There's actually a log about it in the original submissions. Check it out! Also, the general info and helpfile pages are a much better and more useful read than any crap you'll find on the GDB (this post included).

I can't help but get the feeling- no matter how many different characters who react in different ways I play- that this game is designed to gratify the upper tier of characters. I hope I don't go to far with this, but I get the feeling the people who play them were bullied a lot in school. I'm unconvinced by the gameworld and even if you can explain it (magic is the only way it's possible, the water issue could be solved) I'm still too repulsed to find it worth my time.

Actually, I think it's the exact opposite. I believe the game is designed for the upper tier characters to gratify the lower tier ones, with the plots they create and the RPTs they schedule out of their own time and effort. Sure, there are bullies and tyrant-type leaders, but they come and go at an alarmingly fast rate. If you stay here long enough and finally get convinced by this masterfully crafted gameworld, you'll find that only the "good" leaders stick around. That, or the ones who rarely log in.

Magick is one very good way to change the world, but from my experience, I've found that the 0-karma mundane classes are the real world changers. If you really wanted to reform against the brutal antics of Allanak with a commoner, it's entirely possible. Of course, it will take a lot of time, work, and effort. It will take cunning, skill, and staff co-ordination. You might have to make frends, and enemies, and encounter several obstacles along the way. You may even have fun in the whilst. But if you can't handle ArmageddonMUD, and if you don't stick around long enough to even try, well, I guess we'll all never know, will we?

[Niamh]

Armageddon isn't real life.  It's a fantasy setting.  We are all pretending to be something we aren't in a world that only exists on the internet.

[Jdr]

Armageddon isn't real life.  It's a fantasy setting.  We are all pretending to be something we aren't in a world that only exists on the internet.

Mind: Blown.

[Qzzrbl]

My main point was that people wouldn't put up with this.

Many people in our world really do put up with this.  It's maybe exaggerated in the game; the ratio of PC templars to PC commoners is pretty high.

'Tis true.... RL history has shown that entire civilizations have fallen under harsh and oppressive rule as seen in Allanak.

And -those- leaders were just regular humans-- they didn't have the ability to sink an entire city (see: Steinal) under a hundred feet or so of rock like Mr. Tektolnes does.

Why Tek didn't obliterate Tuluk during the Copper Wars? Why didn't he go dragon and wipe the gith off the face of Zalanthas during the occupation?

Mysterious ways.... You'll have to find that much out IG.

[BleakOne]

Also, I think a lot of people in Zalanthas, particularly the southlands, would not have any concept of the innate respect due to a living being. The commoners actually honestly believe Muk Utep and Tektolnes are gods (I don't know if it's true, in actuallity, or not) and that the Templars are superior in all ways. Most aren't stupid enough to think their 'gods' and such are benevolent, but few would dare claim or think they are just human commoners with political power.

There's also self-preservation. Few PCs could survive long outside the walls on their own, and the vnpc population is vastly less skilled and able than the PC population, in general. Most folk have the choice of live under the cruel boot of evil overlords, or die horribly in the sands, get eaten by Kryls, lost in a storm and take days to die of thirst, ect.

However, I can understand that RPing bowing, scraping and grovelling may be innately unfun to you, so perhaps you could look into becoming a desert elf, tribal, gypsy, Red Stormer, 'rinther or outcast sort. I imagine it could be quite fun.

[lordcooper]

I tend to think of it this way.

In RL I'm pretty damn self respecting most of the time and have a great sense of self worth.  However, if someone is holding a machinegun to my face and instructs me to lick their boots, I'm gonna be tasting shoe polish pretty soon.

Templars are that guy with the machinegun, AND they have the backing of what is essentially God.  Even if you're an uber warrior, they have a machinegun while you probably have the equivalent of a toothpick in comparison.

[Reiloth]

I tend to think of it this way.

In RL I'm pretty damn self respecting most of the time and have a great sense of self worth.  However, if someone is holding a machinegun to my face and instructs me to lick their boots, I'm gonna be tasting shoe polish pretty soon.

Templars are that guy with the machinegun, AND they have the backing of what is essentially God.  Even if you're an uber warrior, they have a machinegun while you probably have the equivalent of a toothpick in comparison.

*slow clap*

[ianmartin]

One thing I've always refused to do is ignore/avoid them. I just play my character. Every single time I've just acted like a self-respecting person. Only the very first time did I even deliberately escalate aggression.

I could play a believable well-rounded character who wouldn't get in trouble with the authorities. I just don't want to. And it seems that the only people who make it here do. That's what drives me a way. It's not a challenge, it's be a coward or gtfo. I'm choosing option two.

Quickslash actually does have a point here, I once played a certain character in 'nak and logged into the game and walked out of a certain tavern within seconds of being approved and ended up hauled off to jail and beaten up,  For what?  NFC to this day.  I believe to this day that while it's acceptable to be mean or what have you, you can be mean , perhaps even cruel but don't need to be an asshole about it.    Yeah, it''s fun to you, BUT let's face it, keep that up and do a 'who' every now and then and watch the numbers drop steadily, over and over and over until the game falls by the wayside, I am surprised that some new players even bother to stay here.  It's incredible the turnover in the sponsored roles i have seen, absolutely incredible, but hey, it is what it is.  I can't say I agree with everything you said Quickslash, but you DO have a valid point on certain aspects.

[Dakota]

Maybe I haven't said this clearly:

This game is not playable unless you're willing to play a character who will stand around and take shit from a Templar (or you already have karma points).

ICly people like that could exist, but a new character cannot be such a person and still find more than an hour's RP a week. Don't tell me I'm wrong, I know from several attempts.

Been playing for less than a year. Not sure what my karma is but it's low. Only played mundanes. And I can tell you from my experience (AND I'm off peak).. this is way wrong. Granted, most times you'll get ganked for looking @ a templar the wrong way.

But I've had TWO amazing scenes in the last few months playing where I took a character into the preverbial lions den w/ a -few- templars and walked out.

I can't stress this enough though.

It's all about how your character is. Not in a status kinda way. Not in a karma way. But in a how you've RP'd them / what they want / stand for way.

Then again.. I have known of one ridiculously trigger happy Templar.. Was just lucky enough to have avoided the said Templar.

[Is Friday]

I've gotten thrown into the arena within the first 30 minutes of playing a PC not one time, but on three separate characters. Each time my character was able to survive by groveling to said templar, sometimes after defeating some relatively weak NPCs, (with some luck.) One of the times my PC was enslaved into AoD--that was awesome. Another time my PC was "let go" and joined the Byn with Oash wanting to hire my guy afterward because of how "bad ass" he was. The third one, I don't remember what happened. Mighta died.  

Regardless, all of these PCs were picked up at random at the Gaj for no reason. If you act "realistically" with a Zalanthan response and don't get butthurt, you've got a great chance of survival.

[ianmartin]

Yeah, go hang out in the desert or the 'rinth.  I guarantee the "authorities" there will make whatever Lord Templar Meanie-head did to you look like time-out.

Thanks, jackass.

Hey, you're the one telling us our game-world is worthless.

You don't have to 'sit there and take shit' from templars. Evade, politick, outmaneuver, lie, scheme, entrap, or just be more powerful. Yes, the templar has the initial advantage, but common mundane PCs do beat the templars at times. Maybe you just need to step your game up. Alternatively, play someone who isn't directly subject to templarate authority, like a rinthi or a tribal. But what you definitely shouldn't do is tell us we suck because you keep losing in conflicts with templars.

We do keep forgetting from time to time that we're in the business of trying to grow the game world, but instead we end up driving new people away, yet on the other hand, we call for people to vote for the mud, a bit hypocritical actually.  What is funny is that I remember a string of characters that kept meeting another string of characters for another player, a wicked cycle for about a year, i met:

1.  The bitchy, vengeful group leader merchant
2.  The bitchy, vengeful dwarf warrior
3.  The bitchy, vengeful human ranger

My point is that you get to recognize people from their game play where they don't innovate, they play the same char over and over (I have been guilty of this too), but you know, there is only so much time you can spend chatting in a tavern and it be considered remotely normal.  I mean, let's face it, you can't sit for two days and it be believable, but hey, whatever.

[Is Friday]

If we're coddling people that obviously just want to ignore documentation and not adapt to the gameworld (as roleplaying dictates,) then we're not growing the population of players--we're transitioning to a hack and slash. Everyone already knows that we grow very slowly, and for good reason. If just anyone was interested in playing this game, then we'd have a bunch of retards.

[lordcooper]

If we're coddling people that obviously just want to ignore documentation and not adapt to the gameworld (as roleplaying dictates,) then we're not growing the population of players--we're transitioning to a hack and slash. Everyone already knows that we grow very slowly, and for good reason. If just anyone was interested in playing this game, then we'd have a bigger bunch of retards.

[Cindy42]

Umm... its called playing pretend.

People who can't read and write and have the life experiences and wisdom of your average middle ages serf are surprisingly content with their situation most of the time.

People who are in templar roles are picked by staff and watched to make sure they aren't ruining the game experience for others and abusing their power, although I imagine particularly evil templars should and do get away with the occasional random commoner murder (not that they'd consider taking a commoner's life as much murder as taking the life of a scrab). The population I believe consists of a little over a million people in a vast desert with few and then very small open sources of water, not available to the average person, so the water problem is not, from an in-game standpoint, solvable. Codedly, it is solvable if a few more vivaduan magickers appeared and spent their time filling buckets with water, and it is also codedly possible to have free drinks of water in a barrel at a gate in each settled civilized area. Why this does not happen? To keep up appearances in the game, to avoid breaking immersion, and to make survival realistically difficult, as it should be. While survival would be way easier, I'd be disappointed if water became readily available on Zalanthas. If you think water needs to be more readily available in this game, I don't think this is the game for you.

[Akaramu]

Maybe I haven't said this clearly:

This game is not playable unless you're willing to play a character who will stand around and take shit from a Templar (or you already have karma points).

ICly people like that could exist, but a new character cannot be such a person and still find more than an hour's RP a week. Don't tell me I'm wrong, I know from several attempts.

I play offpeak, and my experiences have been very different from yours. I keep running into PCs CONSTANTLY even during the oddest hours. Sometimes, or often they don't sit in taverns. Also, populations shift between the cities - one time Allanak is more active, then it's Tuluk.

Only one of my PCs was ever 'owned' by a templar, and that was due to a very intricate slander plot to set her up as a rinther even though she was not. My experience has been that templars leave PCs alone unless they give them a reason not to. Maybe it's you who keeps messing with templars or their interests, and that's why you keep getting negative attention? It is really, really easy to avoid templars. Just don't stand on the bar and sing a song about how they all suck, that is sure to get their attention - and I see a lot of PCs who do similar things, and then die.

Anyway, had to chime in as an offpeaker's voice even though others will tell you similar things.  

[ianmartin]

If we're coddling people that obviously just want to ignore documentation and not adapt to the gameworld (as roleplaying dictates,) then we're not growing the population of players--we're transitioning to a hack and slash. Everyone already knows that we grow very slowly, and for good reason. If just anyone was interested in playing this game, then we'd have a bigger bunch of retards.

That may be true, BUT sitting in a tavern doesn't necc. mean you are role playing, in that aspect, we are becoming a MUSH or whatever those strange things are called.  We walk a thin line true, BUT as the coders and the storytellers evolve (Thanks Morgenes for the recent implementation) so should we begin to evolve.  Who says you have to be cruel and mean ALL the time, we're just becoming bullies, then we post on the Bulletin boards about people NOT roleplaying because they don't sit in a tavern for 4 days in a row, passive aggressive things like that just simply make things a drag, just as stifling RP by people who RP that you are NOT rp'ing.  Things like this need to be stopped.  If you played years back, the game world was different, you'd have a templar in 'nak show up and Deebo a character, that's awesome, but nowadays, people will use OOC knowledge, ie stopping that Dwarf just because someone about 60 rooms away, an extremely short figure stole something from them and this is the first PC they ran across.  THIS is what we are running into nowadays.  Because people like you and I can put up with this because we know it's the way it is, is totally ridiculous, but we have no recpurse when things like this happen.  OR, you can run across that uber mul who doesn't know what RP is, but has AWESOME karma for some reason or the other, OR people calling for UBER priveliges just because they have Karma.  I thought everyone was supposed to blend in and a layer is a player, based on his or her merits at the time.  If that was the way things went, then we'd keep more new players which is what is needed rather than 4 people who recognize each other's playing style from past associations, automatically bonding even though IG it makes no sense.  

I believe in essence this is what quickslash is alluding to.   Personally, I can deal with it, there are ways to avoid this happening to you, but unfortunately it's tough to avoid the ganking without using OOC knowledge to know where to go to prevent it.

[Feco]

If we're coddling people that obviously just want to ignore documentation and not adapt to the gameworld (as roleplaying dictates,) then we're not growing the population of players--we're transitioning to a hack and slash. Everyone already knows that we grow very slowly, and for good reason. If just anyone was interested in playing this game, then we'd have a bigger bunch of retards.

That may be true, BUT sitting in a tavern doesn't necc. mean you are role playing, in that aspect, we are becoming a MUSH or whatever those strange things are called.  We walk a thin line true, BUT as the coders and the storytellers evolve (Thanks Morgenes for the recent implementation) so should we begin to evolve.  Who says you have to be cruel and mean ALL the time, we're just becoming bullies, then we post on the Bulletin boards about people NOT roleplaying because they don't sit in a tavern for 4 days in a row, passive aggressive things like that just simply make things a drag, just as stifling RP by people who RP that you are NOT rp'ing.  Things like this need to be stopped.  If you played years back, the game world was different, you'd have a templar in 'nak show up and Deebo a character, that's awesome, but nowadays, people will use OOC knowledge, ie stopping that Dwarf just because someone about 60 rooms away, an extremely short figure stole something from them and this is the first PC they ran across.  THIS is what we are running into nowadays.  Because people like you and I can put up with this because we know it's the way it is, is totally ridiculous, but we have no recpurse when things like this happen.  OR, you can run across that uber mul who doesn't know what RP is, but has AWESOME karma for some reason or the other, OR people calling for UBER priveliges just because they have Karma.  I thought everyone was supposed to blend in and a layer is a player, based on his or her merits at the time.  If that was the way things went, then we'd keep more new players which is what is needed rather than 4 people who recognize each other's playing style from past associations, automatically bonding even though IG it makes no sense. 

I believe in essence this is what quickslash is alluding to.   Personally, I can deal with it, there are ways to avoid this happening to you, but unfortunately it's tough to avoid the ganking without using OOC knowledge to know where to go to prevent it.

We're nowhere near a MUSH; Armageddon relies very heavily on code.  I don't think anyone tavern sits for 4 days either, nor does anyone tell anyone to; to do so is just as unrealistic as someone sparring for 4 days (albeit easier, physically).

I don't see much of the abuse you're talking about.

I'm seeing two complaints in this thread, and they are both stupid.

1.  That stupid Templar was mean to my character... That means the Templar's player was mean to me.

2.  This game is hard.

[ianmartin]

If we're coddling people that obviously just want to ignore documentation and not adapt to the gameworld (as roleplaying dictates,) then we're not growing the population of players--we're transitioning to a hack and slash. Everyone already knows that we grow very slowly, and for good reason. If just anyone was interested in playing this game, then we'd have a bigger bunch of retards.

That may be true, BUT sitting in a tavern doesn't necc. mean you are role playing, in that aspect, we are becoming a MUSH or whatever those strange things are called.  We walk a thin line true, BUT as the coders and the storytellers evolve (Thanks Morgenes for the recent implementation) so should we begin to evolve.  Who says you have to be cruel and mean ALL the time, we're just becoming bullies, then we post on the Bulletin boards about people NOT roleplaying because they don't sit in a tavern for 4 days in a row, passive aggressive things like that just simply make things a drag, just as stifling RP by people who RP that you are NOT rp'ing.  Things like this need to be stopped.  If you played years back, the game world was different, you'd have a templar in 'nak show up and Deebo a character, that's awesome, but nowadays, people will use OOC knowledge, ie stopping that Dwarf just because someone about 60 rooms away, an extremely short figure stole something from them and this is the first PC they ran across.  THIS is what we are running into nowadays.  Because people like you and I can put up with this because we know it's the way it is, is totally ridiculous, but we have no recpurse when things like this happen.  OR, you can run across that uber mul who doesn't know what RP is, but has AWESOME karma for some reason or the other, OR people calling for UBER priveliges just because they have Karma.  I thought everyone was supposed to blend in and a layer is a player, based on his or her merits at the time.  If that was the way things went, then we'd keep more new players which is what is needed rather than 4 people who recognize each other's playing style from past associations, automatically bonding even though IG it makes no sense. 

I believe in essence this is what quickslash is alluding to.   Personally, I can deal with it, there are ways to avoid this happening to you, but unfortunately it's tough to avoid the ganking without using OOC knowledge to know where to go to prevent it.

We're nowhere near a MUSH; Armageddon relies very heavily on code.  I don't think anyone tavern sits for 4 days either, nor does anyone tell anyone to; to do so is just as unrealistic as someone sparring for 4 days (albeit easier, physically).

I don't see much of the abuse you're talking about.

I'm seeing two complaints in this thread, and they are both stupid.

1.  That stupid Templar was mean to my character... That means the Templar's player was mean to me.

2.  This game is hard.

To follow up, I think unfortunately you may be proving his point.

P.S. For a game that relies heavily on code, there is a lot of emphasis not to resort to code and
P.P.S.  The game is hard, not really, it's harsh, there is a BIG difference.
P.P.P.S.  I have rp'd with someone who couldn't do shit to my char code wise, but made it seem so and I believed it, that's how it's done.

[quickslash]

Although the way most of you are reacting makes this hard to say, I do apologize for attacking your entire gameworld because I had a few bad experiences. Maybe I'm too stupid to find good RP, maybe I'm just really unlucky. Probably a little of both.

[ianmartin]

I doubt that Quickslash, I think that there is a future of the game that needs to come, but in order for that, there needs to be change and we need new ppl to pull it off.

[Feco]

If we're coddling people that obviously just want to ignore documentation and not adapt to the gameworld (as roleplaying dictates,) then we're not growing the population of players--we're transitioning to a hack and slash. Everyone already knows that we grow very slowly, and for good reason. If just anyone was interested in playing this game, then we'd have a bigger bunch of retards.

That may be true, BUT sitting in a tavern doesn't necc. mean you are role playing, in that aspect, we are becoming a MUSH or whatever those strange things are called.  We walk a thin line true, BUT as the coders and the storytellers evolve (Thanks Morgenes for the recent implementation) so should we begin to evolve.  Who says you have to be cruel and mean ALL the time, we're just becoming bullies, then we post on the Bulletin boards about people NOT roleplaying because they don't sit in a tavern for 4 days in a row, passive aggressive things like that just simply make things a drag, just as stifling RP by people who RP that you are NOT rp'ing.  Things like this need to be stopped.  If you played years back, the game world was different, you'd have a templar in 'nak show up and Deebo a character, that's awesome, but nowadays, people will use OOC knowledge, ie stopping that Dwarf just because someone about 60 rooms away, an extremely short figure stole something from them and this is the first PC they ran across.  THIS is what we are running into nowadays.  Because people like you and I can put up with this because we know it's the way it is, is totally ridiculous, but we have no recpurse when things like this happen.  OR, you can run across that uber mul who doesn't know what RP is, but has AWESOME karma for some reason or the other, OR people calling for UBER priveliges just because they have Karma.  I thought everyone was supposed to blend in and a layer is a player, based on his or her merits at the time.  If that was the way things went, then we'd keep more new players which is what is needed rather than 4 people who recognize each other's playing style from past associations, automatically bonding even though IG it makes no sense. 

I believe in essence this is what quickslash is alluding to.   Personally, I can deal with it, there are ways to avoid this happening to you, but unfortunately it's tough to avoid the ganking without using OOC knowledge to know where to go to prevent it.

We're nowhere near a MUSH; Armageddon relies very heavily on code.  I don't think anyone tavern sits for 4 days either, nor does anyone tell anyone to; to do so is just as unrealistic as someone sparring for 4 days (albeit easier, physically).

I don't see much of the abuse you're talking about.

I'm seeing two complaints in this thread, and they are both stupid.

1.  That stupid Templar was mean to my character... That means the Templar's player was mean to me.

2.  This game is hard.

To follow up, I think unfortunately you may be proving his point.

P.S. For a game that relies heavily on code, there is a lot of emphasis not to resort to code and
P.P.S.  The game is hard, not really, it's harsh, there is a BIG difference.
P.P.P.S.  I have rp'd with someone who couldn't do shit to my char code wise, but made it seem so and I believed it, that's how it's done.

His original point seemed to be that he didn't believe that the populace of Allanak would put up with Tektolnes.  Most of us disagree.

You're exaggerating how people react to people roleplaying.  When people complain, it's almost always about:

1. Raiders attacking without emotes.
2. Raided fleeing without emotes.
3. Magickers casting without emotes.
4. Burglars cleaning out apartments.
5. dwarves not using punctuation like this

Etc, etc.  No one complains people aren't tavern sitting, or people aren't using over-flowy emotes, etc.

Also, your stance is confusing as shit.  I can't tell if you're defending the game or not.  It's okay to be harsh unless they are being bullies?  What, exactly, are you getting at?  It's allowed by the docs to be both a bully, harsh, whatever, as long as it's IC.  OOC bullying isn't allowed.

If you run into a Mul, or a Templar, or anyone who is sponsored or requires high Karma, and this person is not acting like they should have that karma or opportunity, you have the option to file a player complaint.  There ARE repercussions to roleplaying poorly.

Whining about people being bullies and whining about people being twinky assholes is another.  The first is allowed by the documentation, the latter isn't.

[quickslash]

My original point was just what you said, and it was explained. I have no more complaints about that.

[Feco]

My original point was just what you said, and it was explained. I have no more complaints about that.

Which is why I'm slightly confused as to why ianmartin is going on about people being MUSH-wanting bullies.

[Semper]

4 pages of posts for this... really?!

I guess that just shows how much some of the players care for this game. quickslash and ianmartin, you aren't the first players who had problems with Armageddon, and definitely not the last. Some of the posts in this thread sound childish and immature, and the logic used is rather flawed (which I'll credit to a lack of experience with the game?), but that phase seems to have simmered out.

Characters can be asses. So can players. We hope players don't bring that attitude into the game (or the GDB) but we're fallible human beings, and definitely not perfect. Accept that, and move on to better things. We all wouldn't be playing the game if it was a horrible place to play, and some have been around for many years. (I mean, who can seriously play a game for RL YEARS if it isn't any good?).

From your perspective, it seems you've all had some pretty bad experiences IG. So have we all. The staff and players do what they can to make sure such doesn't happen, but it's not a perfect system. Instead, focus on the good, have a kick-ass time playing what you like and enjoy, and deal with the bad IG. There are countless ways to handle authority IG, and countless other character concepts that people can try out that'll make things enjoyable. It may not always be a fun ride, but those highs will hopefully get you coming back for more.

I'll say there were some really good points on this thread too. Let's hopefully keep it from degenerating into a personal argument over who's right/wrong.