Random Tiny Want: should my PC suck so bad at ride?

[jhunter]

To go back to the old way the ride code used to work. I think the current system is absolutely ludicrous and far more unrealistic than the old one.

[Barsook]

How did the old one work?

[FantasyWriter]

How did the old one work?

>w
Your mount refuses to move.
>w
Your mount refuses to move.
>w
Your mount refuses to move.
>w
Your mount refuses to move.
>w
Your mount refuses to move.
>w
Your mount refuses to move.
>w
Your mount refuses to move.
>w
Your mount refuses to move.
>w
Your mount refuses to move.
>w
Your mount refuses to move.
>w
Your mount refuses to move.
>w
Your mount refuses to move.
>think OOC: Fuck I wish this system was more realistic.

[Barsook]

Oh, that code.  I remember that.  It was a pain for real.

[jhunter]

The current version:

>w
You fall off your mount!
>st
*DELAY*
You stand up.
>mount kank
You jump onto the back of a purple kank.
>w
You fall off your mount!
>st
*DELAY*
You stand up.
>mount kank
You jump onto the back of a purple kank.
>w
You fall off your mount!
>st
*DELAY*
You stand up.
>mount kank
You jump onto the back of a purple kank.
>w
You fall off your mount!
>st
*DELAY*
You stand up.
>mount kank
You jump onto the back of a purple kank.
>w
You fall off your mount!
>st
*DELAY*
You stand up.
>mount kank
You jump onto the back of a purple kank.
>w
You fall off your mount!
>st
*DELAY*
You stand up.
>mount kank
You jump onto the back of a purple kank.
>w
You fall off your mount!
>st
*DELAY*
You stand up.
>mount kank
You jump onto the back of a purple kank.
>w
You fall off your mount!
>st
*DELAY*
You stand up.
>mount kank
You jump onto the back of a purple kank.
>w
You fall off your mount!
>st
*DELAY*
Me, OOC: Fuck this. This is far more unrealistic than the old way and -way- more of a pain in the fucking ass.
>w (leading a stupid purple kank)

[Barsook]

That's more unrealistic than the old one.

[jhunter]

Yeah, my first experience with the new ride code was exactly this, no exaggeration. The instant my pc left the road it immediately fell off it's mount on -every- attempt. This was with both hands completely free. It was impossible to ride anywhere but on the roads. I'm not about to spend hours on end going through that same cycle of shit in order to learn to ride a mount off the main road. So long as the ride code is like this, I'll be sticking with rangers, elves, and magickers.

[Cutthroat]

That's more unrealistic than the old one.

There are actually a number of ways the game treats a failed ride check.

If you fall off at every room it's probably because of the variety of factors listed in "help ride":

   The more hands you have free to use on the reins, the easier it is to
control your mount.

   The speed you are riding can have an impact on your ability to control
your mount.

   The terrain as well as type of mount can have an impact on your ability
to control your mount.

That is what Morgenes said the first time players raised a fuss about it and I believe he even offered to look at logs of strange behavior to determine if the code was truly not working as intended.

What I would actually like to see is more of a chance that your mount will slow down, or attempt to feed, or the various other possibilities of failure besides falling off, and less of a chance of falling off. But removing it entirely would be counter-productive.

[jhunter]

I agree there should be much more of the other failure results than falling off. Falling off should be at most 5% of the time in non-combat situations, IMO.

[BleakOne]

Strange... I always found learning to ride to be an easy thing for a character. I mostly get 'slowly responds to your commands' or 'veers towards a plant' results, almost never throw-offs with both hands free.

That's without riding gloves, my skill not being above novice, and all.

I must be lucky.

[Barsook]

Strange... I always found learning to ride to be an easy thing for a character. I mostly get 'slowly responds to your commands' or 'veers towards a plant' results, almost never throw-offs with both hands free.

That's without riding gloves, my skill not being above novice, and all.

I must be lucky.

I get those two outputs too.

[Zoltan]

Since the change to the ride code, I had only one character suffer the fall, twice. The reasons he fell were obvious, I changed his behavior, and he didn't fall ever again. This was an assassin/physician without any coded advantage on the skill, too. At least getting from A to B is possible now for an utter newb PC, which is a major plus in my book.

That said, ever since I started playing this game I've tried to make my potentially-outdoorsy types have a guild/subguild with a starting ride boost.

[Aaron Goulet]

Since the change to the ride code, I had only one character suffer the fall, twice. The reasons he fell were obvious, I changed his behavior, and he didn't fall ever again.

This has been my experience as well.

[jhunter]

Since the change to the ride code, I had only one character suffer the fall, twice. The reasons he fell were obvious, I changed his behavior, and he didn't fall ever again.

This has been my experience as well.

So did I. I don't see any reason for this pc to have been -so- bad at riding that riding off of a road was -completely- impossible. There's a difference between being bad at it and not being able to do it at all under the best circumstances possible for your character.

[Potaje]

Once, IR, I went ridding with a friend at his ranch and the horse I was saddled with had to be punched in the gut because he had this tick of sucking in alot of air and expanding his ribs when people would go to saddle him. I wasn't told and so while ridding, kicking him into a canter, my saddle came lose and there I went fighting for control while plummeting from a side turned saddle.

Shit happens, there can be many reasons in game for it, even for a semi good rider.

My father, who was a stunt man in his day, went to a ranch with the others from his crew on some western. They where talking about a mean as horse that no one could stay on. My father took up the challenge and after a bit of bucking remained saddled, but that wasn't the end of it, this horse proceeded to gallop across the field they where in and towards a tree with a low branch, set near the end of where the fence closed in the perimeter. Seeing the branch coming my father ducks it, and thinking he got over on the horse looked back.
At the moment of looking back with a smirk at the branch he found himself amid air. Seems the real plan of the horse was either the branch to sweep him off or the sudden stop before the fence where it suddenly bucked and sent him over it into a small gully.

So my point is, it could be you mount and not your skill.

[jhunter]

So my point is, it could be you mount and not your skill.

And if that's the case and it's coded that way that's fine, so long as there's some common knowledge as to what mounts are easiest to ride etc. As it stands, if that is the case, I cannot find anywhere that there is information regarding the reliability and ease of use with different mounts in regards to each other. If they are used as mounts at all, it would be fairly common knowledge.

Now, if what you are saying is it can be explained away as in: "That particular beast is just a pain in the ass to ride." That doesn't resolved the issue of the code being flawed. You can come up with IC explainations for all sorts of fucked up things, it doesn't mean they are working as it should in regards to playability and enjoyment of the game.

[Nyr]

Since the change to the ride code, I had only one character suffer the fall, twice. The reasons he fell were obvious, I changed his behavior, and he didn't fall ever again.

This has been my experience as well.

So did I. I don't see any reason for this pc to have been -so- bad at riding that riding off of a road was -completely- impossible. There's a difference between being bad at it and not being able to do it at all under the best circumstances possible for your character.

Guess your PC's not much of a rider, then, and will have to get better at riding in order to be better at riding.

[jhunter]

Since the change to the ride code, I had only one character suffer the fall, twice. The reasons he fell were obvious, I changed his behavior, and he didn't fall ever again.

This has been my experience as well.

So did I. I don't see any reason for this pc to have been -so- bad at riding that riding off of a road was -completely- impossible. There's a difference between being bad at it and not being able to do it at all under the best circumstances possible for your character.

Guess your PC's not much of a rider, then, and will have to get better at riding in order to be better at riding.

So bad they fall off every single time? That's ridiculously unrealistic.

[Titania]

I don't care much for how hard it is to get decent at riding myself. After thirty plus days with regular rides, wtf I still fall off.

[Nyr]

So bad they fall off every single time? That's ridiculously unrealistic.

This looks like a job for Captain Context!  Please put in a request through the request queue, detailing how exactly this happens (complete with logs)!  Thanks!

[jhunter]

So bad they fall off every single time? That's ridiculously unrealistic.

This looks like a job for Captain Context!  Please put in a request through the request queue, detailing how exactly this happens (complete with logs)!  Thanks!

Unfortunately I very rarely ever log (especially when I'm frustrated) so this isn't an option. The post I made above is entirely accurate about what I was experiencing. On road...fine, messages about it slowing, veering towards a plant, etc. Off road, in EVERY terrain I tried, EVERY attempt resulted in my pc falling off. This was with both hands free and the pc having a subguild that is outdoor-related. I got so frustrated with it, I'm no longer playing the character so I can't just go out and reproduce it either.

[Nyr]

Oh, you were the guy that bugged it yesterday.  The post you made is entirely accurate except for the context, which I can provide (with pertinent stuff redacted, of course) if you'd like.  You were playing a PC with shitty ride, riding a mount in a shitty place to ride it even for people with major ride skillz.

In addition, your subguild had nothing to do with a ride skill, so...that doesn't help either.

[jhunter]

Oh, you were the guy that bugged it yesterday.  The post you made is entirely accurate except for the context, which I can provide (with pertinent stuff redacted, of course) if you'd like.  You were playing a PC with shitty ride, riding a mount in a shitty place to ride it even for people with major ride skillz.

In addition, your subguild had nothing to do with a ride skill, so...that doesn't help either.

Except that I tried it in other places after that bug and it was the same result -everywhere-. Not just in the location at the time I bugged it. -Anything- off the road period. I made it a point to go try elsewhere in a total of about 4-5 terrains (and the result was the same) to see if what you were saying is purely the case, which it doesn't seem to have been. I was unable to get the pc to stay on the mount for a single instance of movement off of a road in any of the terrains I tried. That's what I have a problem with. If the problem were limited to just what you said, I wouldn't have a problem with it. But it was not limited to only the terrain that you are speaking of.

[Nyr]

Yeah.  Riding off of a road when you have a shitty ride skill is probably not a good idea, even according to the documentation on the skill.  The problem (in that one instance) was compounded by shitty terrain.  It didn't change the fact that you had shitty ride on top of it.  The problem isn't limited to terrain, it is limited to people with poor skills having a difficult time using those skills successfully.

[jhunter]

So you're saying it's realistic for someone to be so bad at sitting atop a trained animal that they can't possible stay on top of it unless their riding on a road? If so, I wholeheartedly disagree that this is realistic and always will. It's unrealistic for anyone, other than someone that is physically or mentally handicapped on some way to be -that- bad.

[Nyr]

PCs are not entitled to be good at any particular skill barring a special application.  That's what guild and subguild choices are for, and that's what IC training is for.  I'm sorry you disagree.  If your PC is supposed to start out knowing how to ride, there are several avenues towards achieving that end--just like there are for any other particular skill you need to have for a character.

[jhunter]

All I'm saying is, I can right now go grab a random person that has never ridden on the back of an animal before, put them on one trained to be used as a mount (their very first time ever) and I guarantee they will be able to ride it off of a road at least for some distance without falling off without a saddle and just a set of reins. Under the old ride system, this was possible. It is now no longer possible unless you select classes specifically to represent having experience as a rider. We'll just have to agree to disagree about what's realistic and what's not I guess.

[Anaiah]

All I'm saying is, I can right now go grab a random person that has never ridden on the back of an animal before, put them on one trained to be used as a mount (their very first time ever) and I guarantee they will be able to ride it off of a road at least for some distance without falling off without a saddle and just a set of reins. Under the old ride system, this was possible. It is now no longer possible unless you select classes specifically to represent having experience as a rider. We'll just have to agree to disagree about what's realistic and what's not I guess.

And when they're managing that on huge, smooth-shelled insects during blinding sandstorms, we'll be comparing apples and apples, rather than apples and oranges. The call for realism doesn't apply, the animals you're talking about don't exist. So yes, I disagree.

[Nyr]

All I'm saying is, the random person you'd pick up also hasn't been brought up in a slum in Allanak or a warren in Tuluk, has likely had at least two solid meals per day, has been hooked up to technology to a significant extent over the course of his or her lifetime, has seen and also ridden in or driven an automobile, doesn't believe in magick, isn't in danger of being slain by a templar or noble on his or her first day, has heard of dinosaurs but never thought of riding them, hasn't ridden an elephant (some small percentage might have--for the benefit of the doubt, let's say no, since horses are generally easy to ride and "mount" in-game doesn't necessarily mean "easy to ride" or "horse"), and has likely been more than a few miles from their place of birth.

No, not all of those are important to the question, but it remains to be pointed out that you're comparing apples to Decepticons.  Zalanthas is not synonymous with Earth.  The average Zalanthan, by definition of staff (by way of code), doesn't know how to ride a mount that well.  However, even in Zalanthas, you can learn to ride.  In the time it took you to complain about the "new" ride system, you could be failing a lot less at riding off-road with whatever PC you have now, or helping staff out by collecting logs on it.  The squeaky wheel gets the grease sometimes, provided it squeaks in an appropriate fashion.  The "system" isn't exactly perfect at everything, but given that the one instance I have of reviewing your request showed that the system was working exactly right, I don't feel that it is necessary to go check it out by doing a lot of rigorous testing.  This isn't anything against you, though--I just wouldn't put the time into something with very few reported problems since implementation and multiple tweaks.

[X-D]

I think the current ride code does need more tweeking.

But I find it FAR FAR surpasses what we had before.

With my last HG, I bitched to staff all the time because at 20 days and thousands of rooms mounted, he could still fail to move 2-8 times in a row in the city.

Though, the only thing I really think needs be tweeked now is there needs to be more fail types. Some of them should be mount changing speed, or sometimes just emoting something, like sidestepping, or turning in a circle etc. Having more kinds of fails will reduce the odds of you getting 5 falls off mount in a row and stuff.

Oh, and even with the current ride, I only had a problem 1 time that got me to bitch in wish, and the staffer was nice enough to send "Maybe you should type walk?"
Doh!

[jhunter]

Is it good for playability to make it so that a pc that has a non city-based subguild still have to spend hours and hours of training in order to be good enough to not have to lead their mount by the reins off of roads in order not to spend all their time climbing back on the mount in order to fall off again? I don't think that it is. And if that's the way you intend the ride skill to work, then I think that particular subguild, and possibly others that are primarily aimed at characters that spend their time -outside- of cities should -all- get some sort of boost to their starting ride skill, or a bonus to non-road terrains.

Some subguilds, aimed at non-city characters, do not currently give any bonus to ride and it makes a big difference when creating a character that is going to be outdoor-based. It doesn't make sense for all outdoor-based subguilds not to give some sort of benefit to riding capability.

[Nyr]

If it is important for you to be able to ride off road , pick a guild or subguild (or race, in one instance) that has an affinity towards the skill.  That's already been said--same goes for any skill you feel you need (either "at all" or "at a reasonable starting level" -- see also "direction sense").  You can read the subguild and guild helpfiles to figure this out.

[jhunter]

Foresters, who generally come from the Grey Forest, know their way in and out of its trails, and can detect the passage of others in the forest. They can generally make their living harvesting, processing, and carving wood from that area.

-Currently they don't appear to get any benefit to ride. IMO, they should get a bonus to ride when in "forest" type terrains.

Guards have a useful set of skills in order to function as bodyguards or caravan guards, by the ability to keep those they are protecting from harm, as well as the ability to redeem themselves if one of their charges gets into trouble. Their ability to fight defensively with a shield, as well as holding attacking raiders so that they can be questioned, make them a valuable asset to any House or Merchant.

-Guards, currently do not get any benfit/bonues to ride. But if you read the information about the subguild, one would think that they should be able to ride in order to function as a caravan guard or to help protect merchants who typically do a lot of travelling, whether it be by wagon or –mount-.

Hunters, who have made their living hunting, are generally good at tracking and quietly approaching their prey, as well as skinning it. They also have the ability to shoot their prey from a distance using the arrows that they created.

-Currently they have no bonus or benefit to the ride skill. Pretty much all pcs intended to be hunters (with the exclusion of elves) need to be able to ride (off-road specifically), in order to properly travel to where the game is, haul back their kills, etc.

Nomads, usually originating in the tablelands around Luir's Outpost, speak their own native tongue and Bendune. They are adept at shrewd bartering in the desert markets, and are known for their skill in making spears. If you are playing a character with a nomadic background, you must pick this subclass.

-Nomads, by name, typically travel and live out of doors, should also get some sort of ride benefit/bonus.

[Nyr]

Yeah...um...those aren't the most up-to-date subguild definitions you have there.  Check out the helpfiles.  Nomad specifically mentions ride.

The rest of the subguilds mentioned are subguilds that do not intrinsically have a need to have ride at a certain level.  Ride doesn't define their subguild.  Ride really only defines a few guilds and subguilds--same with direction sense, sneaking, or hiding.  We've chosen to draw the line at the point we've already drawn it for the majority of skills in game at this time.  The more subguilds are fleshed out to include suggestions and wants, the less that prefix matters.

Nomads do have an intrinsic need to have ride at a certain level, however.  That's why they have it. 

If you want ride at a certain level but want to have one of those other three outdoorsy subguilds, you can pick ranger or merchant as your guild, work on it by training, or put in a special application.

[jhunter]

Except that, the way the gameworld currently is, to do any of those jobs successfully, you need to be able to ride. They are intrinsic to them (for any non-elf) in the world of Zalanthas. Especially, for hunters that need to be able to get to where the game is since alot of the npc animals have been moved farther from the cities over the years, foresters who have heavy logs or woodcrafts to pack between the forest and the cities. I can see your reasoning regarding the others but for those two in particular I think some tweaks should be considered.

[jhunter]

Yeah...um...those aren't the most up-to-date subguild definitions you have there.  Check out the helpfiles.  Nomad specifically mentions ride.

Not my fault the information available to us from the website isn't up to date. 

[Nyr]

No, you don't need ride at a high level to be a forester or hunter.

Successfully? Yeah, to do a lot of jobs or be successful at a lot of things, one should have ride at a higher level.  It sure helps to have ride a lot of the time.

So go train it, pick a guild or subguild that gets it, or special app a boost to it.

[Reiteration]

I should be able to dual-wield warhammers, whilst clad in heavy armors and still be able to steer with the reigns clenched in my teeth despite never having ridden a giant shelled lizard before!

[BleakOne]

My advice would be to buy a mount, ICly say it is poorly trained or unruly, and have to ride around the city and roads to 'get it in line' until your skill improves.

[HavokBlue]

I'm just going to point out that it is entirely possible to hunt or travel or whatever without a mount, with a non delf character, with a little bit of cleverness and patience.

[jhunter]

No, you don't need ride at a high level to be a forester or hunter.

Successfully? Yeah, to do a lot of jobs or be successful at a lot of things, one should have ride at a higher level.  It sure helps to have ride a lot of the time.

So go train it, pick a guild or subguild that gets it, or special app a boost to it.

How did, being able to ride well enough not to fall off -every- offroad ride attempt turn into being able to ride at a high level? There is a huge difference between the two.

[jhunter]

I should be able to dual-wield warhammers, whilst clad in heavy armors and still be able to steer with the reigns clenched in my teeth despite never having ridden a giant shelled lizard before!

Don't be a fucking jackass and grow the fuck up.

[Thunkkin]

Cool it man. We gotta save ourselves for the giths.

Nyr said the terrain was extremely rough. I'm going to assume that Nyr isn't lying. As someone who has only ridden on a horse a few times, years ago, I am a complete riding newb. I'm not taking any bets on how well I'd do riding in terrain like, say, this: rough terrain.

[jhunter]

Except that I tried it in other places after that bug and it was the same result -everywhere-. Not just in the location at the time I bugged it. -Anything- off the road period. I made it a point to go try elsewhere in a total of about 4-5 terrains (and the result was the same) to see if what you were saying is purely the case, which it doesn't seem to have been. I was unable to get the pc to stay on the mount for a single instance of movement off of a road in any of the terrains I tried. That's what I have a problem with. If the problem were limited to just what you said, I wouldn't have a problem with it. But it was not limited to only the terrain that you are speaking of.

[jhunter]

I apologize if I'm coming off as hostile but I just recently decided to play more again and decided to try out one of my all time favorite guild/subguild combinations only to find it completely unbearable to play because of a code change. I can't deal with how fucked up it is, it was completely no fun to deal with whatsoever because of the code change so I'm little bummed and upset about it.

[Nyr]

Ok.  I'll check the runlogs and see where you were riding with that same PC, then.

[jhunter]

Ok.  I'll check the runlogs and see where you were riding with that same PC, then.

Cool. Can we lock this one and could you possibly email me with what you find out?

[Nyr]

I'm going to lock the thread for a couple of reasons, but as this is a learning experience (both for other players and for you, since you chose not to take this to the request tool when first asked about it), you will get your response here.

Looks like you had more problems riding a mount with shitty ride in the forest.  Heavy and light forest, both with heavy plantgrowth.  You didn't try four or five different types of terrain--just two (not counting roads).  That may not have been apparent, but the sector types just weren't as varied as you thought they were.  Your throw attempts weren't consecutive as indicated in your hyperbolic post from before; there was at least a minute between each one that I see, and very few (maybe two or three) were in the same room.  Since I can't see what you were doing or what was going on, just the "mount" command, I assume you were thrown about twenty-two times over the course of two hours of play, most of that in aforementioned difficult-to-ride-in-sectors.  That seems about par for the course for a shitty rider in shitty places to ride.

As I sent back when you first bugged it:

Code Select Expand

(send): Nyr (Nyr): "send (player) That's not really a bug, you just kinda suck at riding.  With training, it will improve."        
(send): Nyr (Nyr): "send (player) Plus, you're in a horribly difficult area for even an expert rider, as indicated by the room description."                    
(send): Nyr (Nyr): "send (player) Knee Deep in Muck, thick muck that reaches knee-high on a human, muddy goop, hunks of rotting wood, overgrown foliage...etc."  
(send): Nyr (Nyr): "send (player) Well, you're really in a bad spot.  You suck at ride and you're in a place that even an expert rider would have difficulty riding.  You can get better by training it.  Good luck!"    

I knew I felt like I was repeating myself in this thread.  I don't know what else to tell you, though.  Take a chill pill, and don't flame people.