NPC Brutality: Too codedly strict?

[Gunnerblaster]

As to not derail the Random Armageddon Thoughts thread, I figured I'd make this it's own topic and see what type of input the playerbase, at large, has and to save Staff the trouble of having to go through and do it themselves, if we continued the derail. Posted below is a rough summary of most of the replies/comments involving this.

This game, in my opinion, is too mature for insta-gank, no questions-asked code. This isn't a H&S so we shouldn't have our PC's treated like it is, in certain areas of the Known. I don't care how "rough and tumble" the city is. Hasn't the Known matured a little bit? I mean, even the city renown for it's corrupt militia and brutality has an arrest first, kill second coded policy for their NPC soldiers.

There's only one start location I can think of that's insta-gank, and that's Red Storm.  There's a reason behind it, too: unlike Allanak, Tuluk, and Luirs Outpost, there are no PC law enforcers to visit jail cells and dole out (in)appropriate punishment.

Still, I agree with you in the sense that "RRRARGH, you stole three 'sid from a half-elf magicker!  Prepare to die!" is a bit overboard.  I've always imagined exile to be a healthy compromise.  The guards could subdue a criminal, toss them out the gates, and tell them not to come back.  If they do come back?  Well...  That's where the insta-ganking NPCs could still serve a purpose.  Exile could be permanent, or it could last until the criminal flag expires (to reflect the guards forgetting your face).  Either way, getting tossed out into the desert is harsher than biding your time in a cozy jail cell with no worry of intrusion, but less harsh than immediate death.

Not correct, and in a certain place, the coded punishment dealt for tripping the crimcode is that your PC is turned into a splatter on the ground, no matter the magnitude of the crime, while the documented response PC enforcers are supposed to provide may be no more than a slap on the wrist.

I wonder if it's possible, or workable, to make guards do 'stun' damage with their hits to KO those who resist arrest instead of killing them. That way those who fight back won't get off easy, but those who make mistakes won't die.

Give all soldiers bludgeoning weapons with mercy on.

I'm always reluctant to support any changes to the game that sacrifice realism for the sake of playability.  Obviously, it's a necessity for some things (codedly needing to pee?), but I don't think that this should be one of them.

In fact, realistic reactions from the gaame world SHOULD, in theory, promote more realistic behavior from players.  At least, that's always been my view on game design (I think about this stuff a lot).

What's unrealistic about having 2-3 guards beating the shit out of some failed pickpocket until he's unconscious, with batons/clubs/maces in the middle of the streets of Zalanthas?

I think it's just way too violent when they descend on the same failed pickpocket with deadly long swords and massive battle axes, aiming to kill.

If that failed pickpocket was a new player, getting clubbed unconscious and dragged to jail - Where he later wakes up, hurt badly but still alive, he has the "Woah - I need to be careful as Hell here - Those guys just beat the shit out of me, within a hairbreadth of my life!" experience.

If that failed pickpocket was a new player, getting chopped to death, he would get the Mantis Head log-in screen and think to himself, "Uh... wtf? I just spent a good bit of time coming up with a character's description and his story, then even longer having him submitted - Denied - then resubmitted with the proper corrections, just to have him wtf-pwned by the first failed-pickpocket attempt? Yeah... Screw these guys."

What are all of your thoughts/opinions on this?

[Dahomey]

From limited experience, as long as you have nosave arrest on, your chances of getting killed or really limited. If you don't have it on, they (the mindless NPCs) have all the right to use deadly force to stop your character.

[derail]If we really want the code to be realistic, all NPCs should auto-flee when they're below a certain health/stun. Or self-flee in the case of ranged...[/derail]

[BleakOne]

I think the idea of the guards knocking you out and dragging you away is more in line with what the PC soldiers are supposed to do IC, since a Private would probably get in trouble for killing a pickpocket without direct orders.

However, I can see some problems with changing the code, since soldiers also deal with wandering monsters and deal out death at the whim of the Templars. So there'd need to be some way of them being able to switch to 'mercy off' mode.

If that could be worked around, though, I'm sure people would enjoy being brutally beaten by corrupt guards into unconsiousness instead of death. Heck, they could even take something off you as a 'fine' like some NPCs do when they knock you out already.

[Gunnerblaster]

From limited experience, as long as you have nosave arrest on, your chances of getting killed or really limited. If you don't have it on, they (the mindless NPCs) have all the right to use deadly force to stop your character.

[derail]If we really want the code to be realistic, all NPCs should auto-flee when they're below a certain health/stun. Or self-flee in the case of ranged...[/derail]

The NPC's I'm more pointedly talking about, in the smaller villages/outposts, don't have any coded reaction to law-breakers other then merciless death, no matter the offense. So be it failing a pickpocket attempt or slaughtering multiple PC's - You're going to be dealt with, exactly the same.

And there are NPC's that auto-flee when they reach certain criteria. But some animals, no matter how hurt, even in real life - rather die fighting then run away.

[brytta.leofa]

Reasons for an NPC soldier to try to kill (instead of subduing or knocking out) a criminal:
- It's an animal/bug/monster.
- He has a permanent crime flag and is thus a Known Really Bad Dude.
- He's casting magick while we're trying to capture him.  (This should almost be an automatic permacrim.)
- He initiated an attack on a soldier or templar.
- He's badly damaged a soldier.
- The fight's gone on for more than 30 seconds.

Red Storm's NPC militia should absolutely not attempt to kill you if you break the law.  No, they should subdue you, remove your useful equipment, and take you outside the village.  For small offenses (stealing, mugging without killing), they throw you outside the north gate, still crime-flagged.  For big offenses (killing, attacking a soldier, using magick), they throw you off the dock.

[roughneck]

From limited experience, as long as you have nosave arrest on, your chances of getting killed or really limited. If you don't have it on, they (the mindless NPCs) have all the right to use deadly force to stop your character.

Agreed.  Allanaki soldiers with obsidian longswords are a staple.  Don't cheese them up with clubs.  I think the 'conform or die' message sent by the brutality of the soldiers and crim code fits the game world well.

Red Storm's NPC militia should absolutely not attempt to kill you if you break the law.  No, they should subdue you, remove your useful equipment, and take you outside the village.  For small offenses (stealing, mugging without killing), they throw you outside the north gate, still crime-flagged.  For big offenses (killing, attacking a soldier, using magick), they throw you off the dock.

I disagree.  Public brutality and no-mercy street killing fits Red Storm so well.  My only complaint with Red Storm crim code is the brawl code, before I knew that brawling with NPC's was a good way to incriminate yourself I lost a PC trying to do just that.  Not that it needs to be changed but it would be handy if that was noted somewhere.

[Gunnerblaster]

Red Storm's NPC militia should absolutely not attempt to kill you if you break the law.  No, they should subdue you, remove your useful equipment, and take you outside the village.  For small offenses (stealing, mugging without killing), they throw you outside the north gate, still crime-flagged.  For big offenses (killing, attacking a soldier, using magick), they throw you off the dock.

I disagree.  Public brutality and no-mercy street killing fits Red Storm so well.  My only complaint with Red Storm crim code is the brawl code, before I knew that brawling with NPC's was a good way to incriminate yourself I lost a PC trying to do just that.  Not that it needs to be changed but it would be handy if that was noted somewhere.

In a place like Red Storm, I can almost see the no-mercy, slaughter the wrong-doer mentality since Red Storm is basically criminal hangout - And it lacks it's own PC militia.

But what about the more popular, supposedly PC & NPC-controlled outpost, like Luirs? You fail that pickpocket attempt? Death. You accidentally hit someone in a bar fight, not brawl-hit them? Death.

In a place, especially like Luirs, were drunken barfights is a common pass-time, how do you justify a dozen soldiers mobbing generic PC A who was bar-fighting generic PC B and accidentally initiated actual unarmed combat?

Soldier says, "Oh, well, that last punch that missed looked like it was a little too serious. What? The guy he hit just threw him over a table? Oh, well... They looked like they were just having a good time so I let it pass."

Yeah. That's no dice.

[Sam]

Easy, I say set NPC militia to:
Knock out humans
Knock out breeds, if they resist, kill them.
Kill elves since these are worthless anyway.
Kill dwarves since these are too dangerous to deal with.
Kill halfgiants since these are too dangerous to deal with.
Kill everything else.

[wizturbo]

But what about the more popular, supposedly PC & NPC-controlled outpost, like Luirs? You fail that pickpocket attempt? Death. You accidentally hit someone in a bar fight, not brawl-hit them? Death.

I believe you can become a citizen of Luirs Outpost.  I assume this would lessen the severity of punishment while in the Outpost?

[Gunnerblaster]

But what about the more popular, supposedly PC & NPC-controlled outpost, like Luirs? You fail that pickpocket attempt? Death. You accidentally hit someone in a bar fight, not brawl-hit them? Death.

I believe you can become a citizen of Luirs Outpost.  I assume this would lessen the severity of punishment while in the Outpost?

I assure you, it doesn't.

[wizturbo]

I believe you can become a citizen of Luirs Outpost.  I assume this would lessen the severity of punishment while in the Outpost?

I assure you, it doesn't.

What's the point of becoming a citizen then?

[Gunnerblaster]

I believe you can become a citizen of Luirs Outpost.  I assume this would lessen the severity of punishment while in the Outpost?

I assure you, it doesn't.

What's the point of becoming a citizen then?

Your guess is as good as mine.

/derail

[aphex]

I like the thin line between life and death. It enhances my harsh Armageddon experience. However, I think it's a little ridiculous that you will be murdered on the spot for trying to steal a pair of dice or something equally worthless. Wouldn't really hurt my feelings any to have both Luir's and Red Storm coded to jail people for minor offenses (provided they have nosave on)

[Gunnerblaster]

I have never seen the jail cells in Red Storm but I know they have them in Luirs Outpost - With their own soldiers set to open/close them, but, to my knowledge - Those jail cells are used on a PC's personal whim. Codedly, I feel they are being massively over-looked.

[Lizzie]

I have never seen the jail cells in Red Storm but I know they have them in Luirs Outpost - With their own soldiers set to open/close them, but, to my knowledge - Those jail cells are used on a PC's personal whim. Codedly, I feel they are being massively over-looked.

Last I heard, the individual cells are only unlockable by a PC Sergeant who has a key, and no NPCs have the keys, which is part of the reason why the jail is rarely used. This was a HUGE problem when I played a Kurac Sergeant, because there were two of us and only one set of keys. And sometimes, trouble happened when whoever had the keys wasn't logged in. Or worse - trouble was resolved and prisoners needed to be able to leave, and there was no one with the key to let them out.

As far as I know, this hasn't changed and is the same as it was a few years ago.

[Gunnerblaster]

Last I heard, the individual cells are only unlockable by a PC Sergeant who has a key, and no NPCs have the keys, which is part of the reason why the jail is rarely used. This was a HUGE problem when I played a Kurac Sergeant, because there were two of us and only one set of keys. And sometimes, trouble happened when whoever had the keys wasn't logged in. Or worse - trouble was resolved and prisoners needed to be able to leave, and there was no one with the key to let them out.

As far as I know, this hasn't changed and is the same as it was a few years ago.

I pushed for a similar change when I had a PC in Kurac - The Staff ultimately gave us (not just me) a very vague response saying, "It's the way it is for a reason" and we were shot down, right there.

Later on, we ran into a situation where a PC needed to be detained (not out-right killed) for questioning by a superior, yet no superiors were online - And when I wished up, the Staff gave me a little snarky response along the lines of, "Maybe you aren't supposed to be arresting people" hur hur hur.

Come on. Seriously? To me, it just seems like some easily-mended issues that no one wants to put effort into. Why have a coded House-based militia if they can't even be a militia and do their job? Which is arrest people and keep the peace.

[hyzhenhok]

Seems there's a problem with the docs:

For centuries the only real punishment in the Outpost has been a swift death although a newly built jail stands to change that.

Sounds like the staff is operating on the old Swift Death maxim, while the jail and the docs seem to suggest that things were supposed to change.

A recommend the staff either edit the helpfile to be more clear and certain the all law is punished with a swift death, or work to make the jail included in the law code there.

[Dahomey]

I'm of the opinion to disagree. Liur's isn't a city-state, it's a military fort that also serves as a place of trade. Strict violence to uphold order there could be expected (considering the history of the place and mantis occupation).

Also, even normal militia members don't have the power to arrest people. Only templars do, which is about as high up as Senior Kuraci family members I'd think, though I suppose exceptions could be made for kuraci sergeants under certain circumstances.

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

I support the idea of Luir's gaining law-keeping code which uses the jail. I also support the idea of tossing somebody out of Red Storm rather than killing them.

Here's the problem, though.

The Law Code has no degrees. It is simply off and on. Period.

If there were degrees to crimes, it would make things much better. I have no issue with lawbringers swarming on you, but to be arrested in the same manner whether I punch a breed, or I try to kill a Templar, seems stupid, not harsh or strict or anything else. Once/if this were addressed, then you could add nuances such as exile for this, a beat-down for this, a death for this.

[Lizzie]

Luir's is a very buggy place. Some NPCs are clanned as Kuracis. Some are not. Some that are, have ranks different from others that are. And they all mill around the same general vicinity.

So yeah, a Sergeant is ranked to be able to subdue people. However, if the criminal resists arrest, then the NPCs will all come running. And ONE of those NPCs will actually attack the Sergeant, and then the Sergeant gets crim-flagged, and then all hell breaks loose.

Apparently there's a secret mysterious reason why that one NPC does what he does, but the Sergeants aren't entitled to know this information. If you try and bug it, you are either ignored, or instructed that it's working the way it's intended. It's really not in anyone's best interest to attempt to arrest anyone, because of this problem. But as long as the staff insists that it isn't a bug, players will have to accept that the jail is there for atmosphere, has no actual practical use, unless a staff member is around who can reset the NPCs every time they try to kill a Sergeant who is doing his job.

[Aaron Goulet]

I support the idea of Luir's gaining law-keeping code which uses the jail. I also support the idea of tossing somebody out of Red Storm rather than killing them.

Here's the problem, though.

The Law Code has no degrees. It is simply off and on. Period.

If there were degrees to crimes, it would make things much better. I have no issue with lawbringers swarming on you, but to be arrested in the same manner whether I punch a breed, or I try to kill a Templar, seems stupid, not harsh or strict or anything else. Once/if this were addressed, then you could add nuances such as exile for this, a beat-down for this, a death for this.

I agree with The Voice of Reason. 

[Twilight]

I would say that Luirs is working as it was originally intended.

Lizzie, that whole thing can be fixed for a Sergeant, if the staff are extending that trust.  I have a fairly good guess why it works the way it does and is intended to, but that is only because I was around 10+ years ago.  Staff don't always support a law position in Luirs like they do in Allanak and Tuluk.  The cities with templars rely on the PCs to augment the consequences of the coded crim system.  If you don't have that presence constantly supported, then a similar coded crim system does not make sense for Luirs.

I wish that clans interacted a bit more on a code level, so that a job could be added to the appropriate clan for the Kuraci soldiers, so that a leader could give authority to certain people to jail people.  And have the jail work (at least for jailing people) off of the job, rather than a key.  Make it so that you need a key to get into a cell, but just the right job to jail people.  But even this would fail currently, because of the way clans don't interact.

Red Storm is also working as intended, IMHO.

The jail/surrounding area was built in when there was a sponsored PC that worked for the Sand Lord.  I don't know what the staff intent behind that PC was, but assume the rooms were put in to support that.  I've only heard of one, in 15+ years of playing.