Recent desert navigation changes and game balance

[aphex]

First off, let me say thank Morgenes for this wonderful change. As an Armageddon player of many years veterancy, I can say that this change has been a long time coming. It is really necessary in order to make any non ranger character solo in the outdoors without massive grief.

However, this change has also resulted in a massive buff to EVERY outdoors subguild and to my way of thinking, a debuff to indoor/city subguilds (which really, for the most part aren't that great anyway. This has to do with the lowered skill caps available for skills like steal, sleight of hand, etc. which really make them less than worthwhile unless you're dying to get caught.)

Furthermore, since rangers can no longer lead you without passing a check (Every room, right?) and this means that if you don't have navigation you're basically fucked in an outdoors group. Provided the proper equipment I am sure this effect is mitigated, but really, we should be enabling people to play alone, with less resources, etcetera, not forcing them further into the clans where most of the game is already played.

Therefore, I propose that MOST guilds that have business to do outside of the walls (warrior, merchant, etc.) should just be given desert navigation at a similar/same skillcap as subguilds regardless.  Barring this, in order to make this situation more balanced there are some other solutions I can see:

1. Give ALL city guilds and subguilds some kind of city sneak or "city awareness" or "City navigation". Some kind of similar buff to the one that all outdoors classes received that will make them more viable within the city itself.

2. Give EVERYBODY desert navigation at a low cap (Yeah, I don't really want to give it to c-elves but hey) so that they have at least some basic chance to navigate a terrible sandstorm that might last for up to 10 hours IRL easily.

3. Through staff intervention, allow all players who spend any kind of significant time in an outdoors clan training the ability to have the desert navigation skill added. This is not my preferred option and probably not the staffs' either- IMHO, less interventionism, the less work involved for staff, the better.


Please, staff and players, consider this and give me some feedback. I want to hear some other opinions.

Thanks for reading.

[Nyr]

I don't think any of this is necessary.  You can pick a guild or subguild that has direction sense.  If you don't, you don't have direction sense. If it is a problem for you to travel without it, you will seek out other characters to help.

I disagree with enabling people to play alone with less resources, etc., as well, but that seems unrelated.

[aphex]

I humbly request a similar buff for all "appropriate" city guilds and subguilds to match the buff for all wilderness guilds and subguilds, then, Nyr. I don't think the solution is to "roll a new character that is more better!" I am perfectly capable of taking advantage of a game imbalance and will definitely do so in the future unless there are changes made.

Look at it this way. If I haven't picked a class with desert navigation, I am at a severe disadvantage comparatively when out of my element. Does any wilderness class suffer any penalty in the city? (Nope, unless you're talking about ranger sneak within the walls).

This was a major game change that has serious balance repercussions. It is my opinion that those need to be looked at thoroughly. Although I currently play here, my major goal is that the game remains in a somewhat balanced limbo.

[Nyr]

That isn't the solution I proposed, no.

Play your characters within the confines of existing guild/subguild structure.  If you don't like the current guild/subguild structure and your character concept will not fit, put in a special application.  If direction sense is important enough to you that you feel you need to have it, select a guild or subguild with the skill.  If you don't want to do that, it is not that important, by definition (or you find some other facet of characterization more important).  If you require it to get from place to place, you can seek out a person or clan in-game that can do that for you.

Direction sense is not something to which characters and guilds are entitled.  The same can be said about any skill, immunity, tolerance, etc.  We have a guild/subguild system set up this way in Arm 1 for clear reasons, and I don't see that changing in this game.

[aphex]

Right. I'll pick one of the umpteen subguilds that has this new immensely useful skill. Thanks for your advice. If anyone else can actually see that there is something wrong here (and it is still my opinion that it is) any constructive criticism or feedback would be great.

Incidentally, this is not about anyone being entitled to anything. I didn't decide anyone was entitled to anything other than a fairly balanced system and game. But you and yours (administrators) must remember that a butterfly flapping its wings will cause a sandstorm all the way across the Known. This change is by far more significant than that, more on the order of Tektolnes farting after drinking Firebreather. This change IS, whether you realize it or not, a huge buff to about ten subguilds. And thereby, WITH NO OTHER CHANGES MADE, it is also a reduction of quality of the other subguilds you might choose.

This really wouldn't have been a big deal if almost half the subguild choices didn't get handed this skill.

[Gimfalisette]

You're complaining because too many PCs can now desert-navigate, and you managed to pick a guild/subguild combo that doesn't have it? Is that the gist of the argument here? I'm trying to follow, but there are so many words. Boil it down for me.

It sounds like you're advocating for guilds like assassin and pickpocket (ie "city" guilds) to get desert navigation, too. I think that's a pretty easy "no, that makes no sense whatsoever."

[Nyr]

Right. I'll pick one of the umpteen subguilds that has this new immensely useful skill. Thanks for your advice. If anyone else can actually see that there is something wrong here (and it is still my opinion that it is) any constructive criticism or feedback would be great.

Ok, I'll look over your original post and go into more depth, though I won't respond with the bitter sarcasm you have dipped into here.   I (and other staffers and players) appreciate new ideas and answering the questions/concerns of players out there, definitely.  For the record, if you're asking for feedback from staff, don't get ticked when the answer isn't one you were looking for.

First off, let me say thank Morgenes for this wonderful change. As an Armageddon player of many years veterancy, I can say that this change has been a long time coming. It is really necessary in order to make any non ranger character solo in the outdoors without massive grief.

It is a welcome change, yes, but the game was not necessarily broken beforehand.  Things functioned.  This is a good change and it enables more interaction between players, I definitely agree.

However, this change has also resulted in a massive buff to EVERY outdoors subguild

I'll stop on this point first.  This is your opinion, and I believe it to be hyperbolic.

From the helpfile:

Code Select Expand

Skill Direction Sense                                          (Perception)

   Direction sense is a skill that allows you to keep going the way you
intend even in blinding storms and complete darkness.  Everyone has some
small ability to do this intrinsically, but there are some who excel at it
above others.

Delay:
   none

So everyone has it already, some have it more than others, but "massive buff" is probably over the top.

and to my way of thinking, a debuff to indoor/city subguilds

That seems a little specious.  Some magickers have the ability to fly; is this a debuff on all mundanes?  Increasing the realism of the world and the usefulness of some subguilds and one guild in particular does not = a debuff on all the rest.

(which really, for the most part aren't that great anyway. This has to do with the lowered skill caps available for skills like steal, sleight of hand, etc. which really make them less than worthwhile unless you're dying to get caught.)

Well, they are called subguilds.

Furthermore, since rangers can no longer lead you without passing a check (Every room, right?) and this means that if you don't have navigation you're basically fucked in an outdoors group.

If the situation calls for it, and if you are in a storm/other visibility-obscuring area, and if you are not wearing proper gear to muck about in the nastiness that is Zalanthas, and if your outdoors group has not a single outdoorsy guild/subguild, then yes.  You're basically fucked.  You may as well leave take off your boots and tattoo "this ass is yours!" in heshrak across your chest.   

Provided the proper equipment I am sure this effect is mitigated,

Yes, it is, to an extent.

but really, we should be enabling people to play alone, with less resources, etcetera, not forcing them further into the clans where most of the game is already played.

There's ample opportunity for players to play alone.  This can be done as a ranger, a crafter, etc.  If you're playing a multiplayer game to play alone, I'm not sure you're doing it for the right reasons.   

Therefore, I propose that MOST guilds that have business to do outside of the walls (warrior, merchant, etc.) should just be given desert navigation at a similar/same skillcap as subguilds regardless.

If you plan in advance for your character to do business outside of the walls (and find the lack of direction sense to be a complete cock-block to your traveling ability) and you don't want to rely on another PC with direction sense, the Byn, a Merchant House, a Noble House, the Templarate, or a magicker, then I would humbly suggest you pick a subguild or main guild that has the ability.

  Barring this, in order to make this situation more balanced there are some other solutions I can see:

1. Give ALL city guilds and subguilds some kind of city sneak or "city awareness" or "City navigation". Some kind of similar buff to the one that all outdoors classes received that will make them more viable within the city itself.

City awareness?  How would it work, exactly?  What similar buff?  Should they innately know where the nearest bathroom/bar/etc is?  The maps already do this to an extent.  City-sneak?  There's no real reason for it that I can see.  If you just want it to balance out some guilds having direction sense, then no, I don't think this is a viable solution to pursue.

2. Give EVERYBODY desert navigation at a low cap (Yeah, I don't really want to give it to c-elves but hey) so that they have at least some basic chance to navigate a terrible sandstorm that might last for up to 10 hours IRL easily.

Per the helpfile, everyone has some form of it, only some are better than others.  If your character's survival depends on navigation, you should pick a guild/subguild that deals with that.

3. Through staff intervention, allow all players who spend any kind of significant time in an outdoors clan training the ability to have the desert navigation skill added. This is not my preferred option and probably not the staffs' either- IMHO, less interventionism, the less work involved for staff, the better.

I don't see why this couldn't be done, technically.  It'd take a while.  You could also ask for it via special application.

Please, staff and players, consider this and give me some feedback. I want to hear some other opinions.

Thanks for reading.

I did consider it.  I didn't give you the play-by-play thought process because I thought the summary would do--I happened to be online and have the free time to post about it.  Feel free to continue soliciting discussion from others if you'd like.

[aphex]

Gimf, to put it simply and succinctly, your description of what I am talking about is rather disingenuous at best, and basically says you didn't read the post.

In an ideal world I am advocating that city oriented types get some kind of environmental advantage that is comparable to the one provided for "outdoors" types as a result of this change.

Believe you me, my next character will be an assassin that can sneak in the wilderness AND desert navigate. My issue is not one pertaining to my ability to select an awesome guild and subguild combo.

Nyr, thank you for the blow by blow. This makes more sense than "Dood, you fucked up and roll a new character". I still think that there is a balance issue here given that 95% of the game is outdoors and 100% of all outdoors subguilds have just been buffed.

[Nyr]

If you have new material to add to the discussion, I'd recommend making a new post.

This change IS, whether you realize it or not, a huge buff to about ten subguilds.

It is a skill bump to six subguilds.

And thereby, WITH NO OTHER CHANGES MADE, it is also a reduction of quality of the other subguilds you might choose.

Only if you deem direction sense to be the end-all, be-all of character priority.  I only marginally consider it in the grand scheme of things, confident that if my character needs to, he/she can find some way of traveling without the ability.

This really wouldn't have been a big deal if almost half the subguild choices didn't get handed this skill.

It's actually a quarter (6/24).

[Gimfalisette]

Gimf, to put it simply and succinctly, your description of what I am talking about is rather disingenuous at best, and basically says you didn't read the post.

<snip>

I still think that there is a balance issue here given that 95% of the game is outdoors and 100% of all outdoors subguilds have just been buffed.

I think I indicated that your post was a little tl;dr for me, yes. I'm not trying to be disingenous, what it honestly sounds like is that you picked the wrong guild/subguild combo for something you now wish you could do. But that's really the way the cookie crumbles, in ARM. Characters often need to be interdependent. I like that about our game.

It sounds like you don't really prefer "indoor" types of characters or play them often, with your assertion about how much of the game is outdoors versus indoors. I don't agree with your statement about how much of the game happens where...like...at all. That's your perception, not reality. And if you prefer the outdoors aspects of the game, well then, plan better.

[aphex]

25% of all subguilds is still a major game change. Anyway, thanks for discussing it with me. I am, again, for the record, not really concerned about my current character. I can still special app, i can still ask for skills to be added, I can die and reroll. i just don't think i should have to. Nor do I plan on taking advantage of the system to get what I want, when I believe the system is inherently flawed in terms of balance. i think my city subguild should have some kind of environmental bonus comparable to the one that wilderness subguilds now have. That is all.

[Marauder Moe]

I'm not sure I understand.  Are the city characters fighting the wilderness characters?

[Nyr]

If it's unbalanced for some PCs to have skills that my PC can't have, then yes, the game is completely unbalanced a lot of the time.

[aphex]

I'm not sure I understand.  Are the city characters fighting the wilderness characters?

Armageddon is conflict-centric. If i want to roll my assassin or warrior/thug or whatever out into the dunes and backstab/sap your ranger, I better hope there's no storm around. If said ranger wants to enter the Rinth at night, what penalties does he suffer? Any at all? In a crowded city, for one thing, it's REALLY EASY to conceal yourself in a crowd. if you grew up within the city walls and spent most of your life there, why wouldn't you be able to raise your hood and hide in the crowd? Just the same as someone who spent their whole life in the wastes has some ability to navigate the storm, I should be able to navigate my city with an advantage, or a penalty to my ill-guilded opponents.

[aphex]

this is not about "gimme what u got". This is about "here is a system for dictating who has an advantage. Now, we're going to set it up so some people are penalized and others are rewarded." I would like this system to be consistent throughout. I don't care that I can't fly. I just care that I don't have anything at all going for me as a city subguild compared to a wilderness subguild in my own comfort zone (the environment my character was born and raised in).

[Gimfalisette]

Ah. With regards to the city guilds/subguilds, they already have what they need as far as coded advantages for city navigation. I think you are perhaps not very well-informed on the subject, and you should try playing some, sometime. But we shouldn't be discussing here what skills the city guilds/subguilds do or do not get.

[Marauder Moe]

I'm not sure I understand.  Are the city characters fighting the wilderness characters?

Armageddon is conflict-centric. If i want to roll my assassin or warrior/thug or whatever out into the dunes and backstab/sap your ranger, I better hope there's no storm around. If said ranger wants to enter the Rinth at night, what penalties does he suffer? Any at all?

Well, for one thing, there's the fact that the ranger's hide, sneak, and scan skills won't work right.

[Nyr]

And on top of that, he can't ride a mount there. Rangers can be super deadly on mounts.

[Cutthroat]

this is not about "gimme what u got". This is about "here is a system for dictating who has an advantage. Now, we're going to set it up so some people are penalized and others are rewarded." I would like this system to be consistent throughout. I don't care that I can't fly. I just care that I don't have anything at all going for me as a city subguild compared to a wilderness subguild in my own comfort zone (the environment my character was born and raised in).

When you're picking a city subguild as opposed to a wilderness subguild, you're getting something that would help a character in the city. I think the argument that desert navigation subguilds get something other subguilds can't match to is misleading. Without going into the skills the subguilds offer, a lot of the subguilds' descriptions hint at things that would be useful for a city-slicker. A lot of the crafting subguilds come to mind, as well as a few others.

Why add a special city skill if those subguilds still offer something useful? You may contend that they actually aren't useful at all, but they are at least good for subguild standards. A desert navigator has the advantage of traveling in the desert, but can he make a helmet or speak three languages? Not necessarily.

[Marauder Moe]

Aphex, I would also suggest that you consider that Armageddon is not a symmetric game.  City characters are not the Alliance and rangers are not the Horde.  There isn't really a battle between the two, and thus there's not really a need for "balance", environmentally considerate or otherwise.

[brytta.leofa]

Were we hell-bent on balance, I think the proper city analogue to direction sense is, well, direction sense.  You could penalize direction sense in the city for wilderness guilds/subguilds, and boost it for city guilds.

But I haven't really noticed my PCs getting turned around in the city on dark, stormy nights the way they did a couple years ago.

[jstorrie]

And on top of that, he can't ride a mount there. Rangers can be super deadly on mounts.

Also he can't explode Rinth corpses into valuable piles of loot with >skin body.

[Gunnerblaster]

Listen, Aphex - The way it was before, ONLY rangers could do anything with a measure of success in a sandstorm/darkness.

Now we have multiple subguilds with that ability that, prior, they didn't.

[jriley]

First off, let me say thank Morgenes for this wonderful change. As an Armageddon player of many years veterancy, I can say that this change has been a long time coming. It is really necessary in order to make any non ranger character solo in the outdoors without massive grief.

However, this change has also resulted in a massive buff to EVERY outdoors subguild and to my way of thinking, a debuff to indoor/city subguilds (which really, for the most part aren't that great anyway. This has to do with the lowered skill caps available for skills like steal, sleight of hand, etc. which really make them less than worthwhile unless you're dying to get caught.)

Furthermore, since rangers can no longer lead you without passing a check (Every room, right?) and this means that if you don't have navigation you're basically fucked in an outdoors group. Provided the proper equipment I am sure this effect is mitigated, but really, we should be enabling people to play alone, with less resources, etcetera, not forcing them further into the clans where most of the game is already played.

Therefore, I propose that MOST guilds that have business to do outside of the walls (warrior, merchant, etc.) should just be given desert navigation at a similar/same skillcap as subguilds regardless.  Barring this, in order to make this situation more balanced there are some other solutions I can see:

1. Give ALL city guilds and subguilds some kind of city sneak or "city awareness" or "City navigation". Some kind of similar buff to the one that all outdoors classes received that will make them more viable within the city itself.

2. Give EVERYBODY desert navigation at a low cap (Yeah, I don't really want to give it to c-elves but hey) so that they have at least some basic chance to navigate a terrible sandstorm that might last for up to 10 hours IRL easily.

3. Through staff intervention, allow all players who spend any kind of significant time in an outdoors clan training the ability to have the desert navigation skill added. This is not my preferred option and probably not the staffs' either- IMHO, less interventionism, the less work involved for staff, the better.


Please, staff and players, consider this and give me some feedback. I want to hear some other opinions.

Thanks for reading.

Not a bad idea, however I think that the changes that you're proposing would prove unpopular.  It was a bold suggestion, however.

All the same, I suspect that the ramifications that you fear may not prove as severe as you worry they could be.

[aphex]

Thanks for the input. This reaction is pretty much what I expected, but I appreciate the time that you guys took to address my idea.

[wizturbo]

Trying to apply normal game balance concepts to Armageddon isn't going to work, the entire notion is philosophically flawed.  Armageddon is attempting to be more of a harsh world simulator than a balanced roleplaying game.  And like in real life, the world isn't necessarily fair and equal.  

With that said, I can understand the immense frustration in having a character you designed on day one ending up in a place you never expected, and being codedly hamstrung because you don't have a single mundane skill at your disposal.  I don't see this really as a balance issue, but more about character's coded ability to adapt.

If it were up to me, I would implement a system by which you could choose one new skill at a certain milestone in your character's life.  Perhaps at 10 days played or so, though I wouldn't force anyone to make the choice at that time, just have the option available starting then.  The skills list should be limited to only the skills available through subclasses.  The purpose of this is fairly obvious, it will allow you to make a final addition to your PC, so you can adapt to the role you find yourself in after you've settled into playing the character.  

[Schrodingers Cat]

2. Give EVERYBODY desert navigation at a low cap (Yeah, I don't really want to give it to c-elves but hey) so that they have at least some basic chance to navigate a terrible sandstorm that might last for up to 10 hours IRL easily.

Every character that is properly outfitted has an increased ability to navigate in sandstorms.  One just needs to have the propper desert gear.  I suggest you contact your local Kuraci merchant and talk to them about your problem.  If they like you, they might help you out.

[Aarlo]

If it's unbalanced for some PCs to have skills that my PC can't have, then yes, the game is completely unbalanced a lot of the time.

Nyr nailed it with this response.

If one is so deeply concerned about game balance, this may not be the right game for you. This game is about actually playing a role, any conceivable role, irrespective of its "viability" from a mechanical point of view. It's not about the code, which is only there as a framework anyway. The heart of the game is found in the PC interactions, not the mechanics. I would wager that the notion of balance is irrelevant to most Arm players, and therein lies the lack of support for issues pertaining to balance.

[BleakOne]

Only useful thing I could maybe think of for city types would be an ability to auto-walk to shops, taverns and the like. Make walking places in a bad storm in the city easier. Not sure if it would be worth all the programming required though.

[Sokotra]

Just as an observation, unless I missed something, I think what it comes down to is this:

The sandstorms outside the city walls are the same as the sandstorms inside the city walls.  Except maybe when they are worse in some areas than in others - but I think we are talking about the overall effect that sandstorm has on a character and not the severity of such storm.

Is this the case?  Should this be the case?  If it is the case, would there be any benefits or detriments to the game by making sandstorms in the city affect you differently than they affect you out in the waste?  For example, maybe there is more airborne sand and dust out in the wastes so you really need that "direction sense" whereas in the city it won't come in as handy or be necessary because the sandstorms just don't put out the same amount of hindering/blinding qualities.

Or maybe the crowds and tall buildings can cause rangers and outdoorsy types to get lost more easily in the city.  I think I understand where the OP is coming...  I'm just trying to see both sides of the discussion here.

[Qzzrbl]

Meh.... Got along fine without direction sense before.

It's kinda funny!

Before Direction Sense came along, I'd never had any warriors or assassins get killed out in the wastes because of a sandstorm.

But now?

Dear gawd, I've had a stupid number of 'em get lost and die even -with- direction sense.

[Gunnerblaster]

You know, I've been thinking about it and it would be nice if Direction Sense could basically start off as one of those skills that, even though you may not have it to begin with, you can still work on it - Like ride, skinning, etc.

Everyone has some measure of success, after trying long enough.

[hyzhenhok]

Furthermore, since rangers can no longer lead you without passing a check (Every room, right?) and this means that if you don't have navigation you're basically fucked in an outdoors group. Provided the proper equipment I am sure this effect is mitigated, but really, we should be enabling people to play alone, with less resources, etcetera, not forcing them further into the clans where most of the game is already played.

I would say the biggest weakness of your argument is in this paragraph. [Item] is not particularly expensive, and is by no means restricted to clans. It's almost silly that you would try to wave away that options are available for the directionally-challenged with some a clanned vs. indie complaint (if you have serious complaints on this front, you should make a thread on it). With [item] and a little luck, a city-type can certainly manage in the desert, especially if they avoid areas with the worst weather.

Additionally, step back and consider what you're arguing here. You're saying city types should be able to handle the desert and its sandstorms without help from other people. Without any sort of interaction. That just doesn't fit with the game world, nor the spirit that we want to see in Armageddon. It can add a lot to the game when your assassin or burglar is forced to befriend a ranger or hire the Byn because they have business in the wastes (or just want to get from A to B).

[Gunnerblaster]

Instead of jumping on the bandwagon to shoot down Aphex idea, perhaps it would be better to see if we could take it in another direction while still addressing the issue of desert travel.

I don't think that PC's should all have the ability to ride, alone, through the wastes - Leave that ball in a Ranger's court.

Perhaps, like ride, no matter how low an aptitude someone has for it - They eventually get well enough to atleast handle rough weather without being constantly blown off course. It's a individual skill to raise unless with Rangers who, to my knowledge, have the ability to lead others with their own Direction Sense ability.

[hyzhenhok]

In terms of "balancing" things, I could see dividing direction sense into darkness and sandstorm navigation (you could call it city and wilderness direction sense, like we have with sneak and hide and some others), where assassins, burglars and pickpockets either start with or can gain some ability to move safely and reliable through darkness. Darkness is already part of direction sense AFAIK, but we could expand it.

[Scarecrow]

Armageddon isn't about a fine balance of all skills and classes being equal. It isn't a hack and slash. It's about taking on a role and becoming it within the world. Direction sense is something rangers and other subguilders now have, because it is something they are good with. Sure, joe non-direction sense could wander the storms for a while, but it wouldn't mean he'd still know a thing about what he was doing. I could hide in the shadows all night long and practice my mad backstabz skillzor on passing people, but even if I did that a thousand times it doesn't mean it'd be as polished, reliable and skilled at it as an assassin would be. Some parts of the game are coded to give some classes certain things.
Personally, I despise the skill of sap only because of it once robbed me of a beloved character. But codedly, I have no problem with it and don't resent others using it. It's more like a thing that's an enemy of mine I'm overly cautious of.
It boils down to the fact some classes just do stuff better. Want your fancy silk pantaloons sold for the best price? Get a merchant. Want Joe Sleezbag taken out? Get an assassin. Want a storm navigated? Get a ranger. As detailed and "realistic" as it can be, no game on the face of the earth can totally account for every last single thing. There are limits.
This isn't World of Warcraft or adoloscent choked Runescape, it isn't about your numberz. It's an interactive story which incorporates gameplay mechanics which in my book are pretty fucking good, and the best I've seen so far.
Anyway I don't wanna rant anymore.
P.S. Zalanthas is a tough world, people kick you in your kank-fly and flea infested balls all the time and you can't do anything until you're big enough to be the booter kicking someone else's balls. Until you wear the boot, you need a brass pair of ballls to survive. Endure and you will be great in Armageddon.

[Gunnerblaster]

P.S. Zalanthas is a tough world, people kick you in your kank-fly and flea infested balls all the time and you can't do anything until you're big enough to be the booter kicking someone else's balls. Until you wear the boot, you need a brass pair of ballls to survive. Endure and you will be great in Armageddon.

Well said and very quotable.

Edited to add:
If it weren't for the fact that it takes up more room then a signature allows

[Scarecrow]

P.S. Zalanthas is a tough world, people kick you in your kank-fly and flea infested balls all the time and you can't do anything until you're big enough to be the booter kicking someone else's balls. Until you wear the boot, you need a brass pair of ballls to survive. Endure and you will be great in Armageddon.

Well said and very quotable.

Edited to add:
If it weren't for the fact that it takes up more room then a signature allows

Some thingz r too grate to be kontayned  in a small box. Ayup. 

[aphex]

Furthermore, since rangers can no longer lead you without passing a check (Every room, right?) and this means that if you don't have navigation you're basically fucked in an outdoors group. Provided the proper equipment I am sure this effect is mitigated, but really, we should be enabling people to play alone, with less resources, etcetera, not forcing them further into the clans where most of the game is already played.

I would say the biggest weakness of your argument is in this paragraph. [Item] is not particularly expensive, and is by no means restricted to clans. It's almost silly that you would try to wave away that options are available for the directionally-challenged with some a clanned vs. indie complaint (if you have serious complaints on this front, you should make a thread on it). With [item] and a little luck, a city-type can certainly manage in the desert, especially if they avoid areas with the worst weather.

Additionally, step back and consider what you're arguing here. You're saying city types should be able to handle the desert and its sandstorms without help from other people. Without any sort of interaction. That just doesn't fit with the game world, nor the spirit that we want to see in Armageddon. It can add a lot to the game when your assassin or burglar is forced to befriend a ranger or hire the Byn because they have business in the wastes (or just want to get from A to B).

Rather than attacking a perceived weakness of my argument, please try to understand the thrust of what I am suggesting. I think that city types should either have some kind of comparable bonus within the city, or a marginal chance of success and improving over time by using a skill (desert navigation). That's really about it.


@Scarecrow and everyone else who has mentioned that Armageddon is not about balance. This is not news to me. I understand the drill. I just happen to think that if one environmental bonus is being handed out to one set of players, that the other set might do with something also. I understand that people may disagree with this as a matter of personal preference or game design choice or whatever. I am only representing my opinion.


I would've been fine had rangers remained the only "storm-riding" guild. I see a sweeping game change and would like to see its ramifications considered.

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

If it were up to me, I would implement a system by which you could choose one new skill at a certain milestone in your character's life.  Perhaps at 10 days played or so, though I wouldn't force anyone to make the choice at that time, just have the option available starting then.  The skills list should be limited to only the skills available through subclasses.  The purpose of this is fairly obvious, it will allow you to make a final addition to your PC, so you can adapt to the role you find yourself in after you've settled into playing the character.  

I like this idea a lot - though I would have more than one milestone. Maybe every ten days played you could choose a new skill. Whatever the math, I like the idea a lot.

On topic - I think things are fine the way they are. I did read the post, I did think about it, and I even thought about matching city skills, but in the end, what others have said is true. Armageddon has no balance. The balance is in the roleplay. The balance is in the world, via the cities and the villages and the tribes and everything else.

It's fine the way it is.

[Marauder Moe]

Rather than attacking a perceived weakness of my argument, please try to understand the thrust of what I am suggesting.

We understand.  We just also happen to disagree.

I am only representing my opinion.

And we're representing our opinions about your opinion.

I would've been fine had rangers remained the only "storm-riding" guild. I see a sweeping game change and would like to see its ramifications considered.

Well surely it's been considered by now at least.

[Marshmellow]

I do find it interesting that when the desert navigation skill went in there were people bitching that it was a nerf to rangers... and now someone's complaining that it's a nerf to everyone but the subguilds that got the skill?

Rangers NEVER should have been the only ones with the ability to make it through storms without getting totally turned around, or at least a large portion of the playerbase would say so.  Desert navigation NEVER should have been a perk but a skill as it is now with more than one guild getting it, as years of posts on the GDB will tell you, at the very least.  This has been considered for years.  Don't worry about it.

[Sokotra]

...And isn't it like, possible to choose Assassin and a subguild with direction sense?  Just curious... wouldn't that solve any of these issues?  If you've got a subguild that doesn't have direction sense then I suppose they probably have something useful in the city that the others don't.  Otherwise, yeah, I wouldn't mind seeing some other useful city skills if that is the case.  

Even if it isn't the case, like everyone said, the game is not about complete balance - so why not entertain the idea of adding some useful city skills for the subguilds that don't have direction sense?  Makes sense to me.  It doesn't necessarily have to be anything as powerful as direction sense.     

Edit:  Street fighting?  Close-quarters combat?  Still brainstorming on "city skills"... 

[Twilight]

I honestly did fine back before any of this direction sense stuff with a plain warrior, regularly wandering the wastes in bad weather.  My ability to do fine with such a character is now dramatically improved.  To the point of there being some strategic advantage to someone with direction sense, but no where near what the OP is making it out to be.  No where near at all.  Any large strategic advantage really comes from the other skills.

There also seems to be a preoccupation with combat.  The skills "city" guilds/subguilds get that are powerful are not necessarily combat at all.  Actually, if there was a comparable "environmental" skill, I would say it should be the ability to deal with a shopkeeper who would otherwise be closed.  That would be an awesome subguild.

[RogueGunslinger]

.

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

...I would say it should be the ability to deal with a shopkeeper who would otherwise be closed.  That would be an awesome subguild.

Ooooo.

[a strange shadow]

The shopkeeps closing is the most irritating thing I can think of about this game.

[Whiran Luck]

The only thing really annoying about this direction sense stuff is:

In the middle of a city, in a sandstorm, in the day, when you can see everything around you: stumbling around and losing your bearings a lot in a row.

I could understand in the night, a blinding sandstorm (you can't see your surroundings at all), or in the desert, but I don't know. It just seems over the top for a city character to need a ranger guide in the city, during the day, when they still see their surroundings about them.

While I know the easy answer is 'pick a guild/subguild with direction sense', the above still doesn't make sense at all. In a way, I can commiserate somewhat with the spirit of the OP in this particular situation.

[Sokotra]

Exactly, which is why it really doesn't seem that ridiculous that certain city-guilds/subguilds should have some form of "city direction sense".  It sounds a bit silly, but it isn't at all unrealistic when you have sandstorms that are common IN the city and certain denizens that live on the streets and deal with those conditions daily. 

However, I do like the harsh conditions and desert environment... and I'm guessing there might be IC reasons that a certain area has worse weather than usual lately.