Let's dialogue about plots

[Talia]

I played a leadership role before coming on to staff.  I checked back through the responses I got via e-mail.  There were several times where updates sent in just never got a reply, even when there were questions in it.  I didn't act discouraged about it at the time, but I was discouraged and felt cast-off.  Even if it had just been "we got your report, you're doing fine, continue," that would have been better than no reply at all.

This happened a lot of the time to me, too, when I sent in reports and questions via email to staff. And it did not feel good.

Since coming on to staff, I know that we've put things into the request queue but we have also made a big push to making sure that things are replied to in short order.

I know you guys don't know this, but Nyr is a big reason that requests get answered in such a timely manner. He pokes at us to get things done. He's very concerned that overall we should do a good job of responding in helpful ways and on time, and I appreciate it.

If I had to guess, I would say that I think we're probably doing a far, far better job of responding to players than just a few years ago.

[Dakota]

One thing that I've never understood is -why- the imm-animations of boss-NPC's went away.

I mean, hell, I would think that would be -fun- for an Imm to do, rather than just sifting through 3 pages of back and forth emails/reports to get to the gist of whats going on. I mean you don't have to go back to the old 'everything done through in game speaking to NPC bosses' but why does it have to be all or none?

Their is a certain 2 IMMs I know of who animate one clans bosses semi-regularly and it is GREAT.

They do it on plot stuff for leaders but also for mundane stuff and it makes the game and experience SOOOOO much more alive.

Love it. You know who you are b/c I sent you Kudos. pls keep that up.

[Nyr]

Sorry, got Blackwing mixed up with Blackmoon.  Looks like Blackmoon was destroyed/consolidated into some other things.

[valeria]

I played a leadership role before coming on to staff.  I checked back through the responses I got via e-mail.  There were several times where updates sent in just never got a reply, even when there were questions in it.  I didn't act discouraged about it at the time, but I was discouraged and felt cast-off.  Even if it had just been "we got your report, you're doing fine, continue," that would have been better than no reply at all.

This happened a lot of the time to me, too, when I sent in reports and questions via email to staff. And it did not feel good.

Since coming on to staff, I know that we've put things into the request queue but we have also made a big push to making sure that things are replied to in short order.

I know you guys don't know this, but Nyr is a big reason that requests get answered in such a timely manner. He pokes at us to get things done. He's very concerned that overall we should do a good job of responding in helpful ways and on time, and I appreciate it.

If I had to guess, I would say that I think we're probably doing a far, far better job of responding to players than just a few years ago.

I agree that staff are doing a much better job of responding to players.  Now that I've gotten used to it (and some of the initial problems I had with it have been ironed out), I think the request tool is one of the best things to happen to the game since I've been here.  I think a lot of the difficulties with "player driven" are communication difficulties, and the request tool makes it a lot easier for a lot more knowledge to be exchanged, and for there to be accountability with responding to players in a timely fashion.  Most of my communication-related suggestions were for tweaks to a system that I recognize is much improved.

[Semper]

I kind of feel like this thread looks a lot like how the democrats are trying to gain public opinion by pointing to everything they've done, but that's useless when the players don't -see- the benefits. If we only hear about how good this is, and that (staff-run plots, conflict-generating characters, large-picture plots, etc.) is working, just in the background or in progress, it might be true, but it won't help change the opinions any if the players aren't experiencing it themselves. (I know politics isn't the best model, so just take it as an illustration.)

Also, I very much appreciate the staff starting a thread like this, and I think it's wonderful to have, but the answers that have been provided by the staff aren't very reassuring, given how long this thread is running, with a lot of the same themes being repeated. It's like giving a pill to fix the problem rather than getting to the actual problem.

I -think- what players are trying to say is that while the present player-started, player-run plots are good, we'd like to see much more of a hands-on, visible presence from the staff in keeping plots running.

It doesn't have to be on the scale of the black moon plot (which, by the way, was largely started and run by players to my knowledge, but given further boost by the staff, which I think is ideal), but having that kind of visible staff presence helping to guide and push plots in open-ended directions is huge. Also, many of these large, world-changing plots require magick in some form. I think what players simply want are more staff support in the mundane things. The copper wars being another good example of it, but again, on a smaller scale.

I hope the staff will seriously consider -how- they can improve the current system, rather than giving responses that sound like things are going well, or that players don't really know what's happening. We do. We might not see the whole picture, but we aren't blind.

[Nyr]

I think we could do more to animate in regards to player-run plots, whether it be in assistance or in antagonizing them.  I agree.

[Salt Merchant]

1. Anything new is very unlikely to be supported. Buildings, items, whatever. Until Arm 2.0.

Have you been trying in the past 18 months? Did your PC actually have the means to make these things? If the answers to both of these questions are "yes", I find this observation very hard to believe, primarily because it's proven wrong by the new buildings/items/rooms that have been put into the game, or are in the process of being put in, in the last 18 months, by players.

Yes, a few people keep proclaiming on the the GDB how much new stuff is going in. I've yet to see any of it, at least in Allanak or Red Storm. Same rooms, same items, day after week after month. Oh, some NPC soldiers got new sdescs.

All this new building must be hidden away in clan compounds or so.

2. "Positive" quests (e.g. find the treasure/artifact) are very unlikely to be supported. They don't fit in with the harsh atmosphere.

What puts you in a position to ask the staff to load an item for you to find? It's not that it doesn't fit in with the harsh atmosphere (it should, it follows that if entire cities have been destroyed then there are ruins in various places in the Known), it's that you're asking for something to do that will just result in a free item for you, after your PC randomly gains a reason to search for it.

Note the word "quests". I'll give an example that address both points 1 and 2. I had a Byn PC that wrote in to the staff to propose that a little script be set up to allow Byn to dig in the training yard (maybe as punishment detail), in an attempt to clean it up a bit. The idea was, after enough 'dig' commands, one would strike a box. More dig commands would unearth it. After finding someone to open the lock, in it would be an old Byn banner that could be carried, heavy enough to appear as an addendum to an sdesc the way heavy objects do.

So some fun, some RP, an object useful to add color to the game, but little staff interest.

I also had a Whiran who, unsurprisingly, given his talents, didn't find it too difficult to amass some coin. I figured maybe I'd set up my own treasure out in the wilderness, gather a few beasts to "guard" it, and try to start a treasure hunt. But it seemed futile, because, without staff help, I couldn't see how to plant a trail of clues to make the hunt interesting. Also, with the limited number of save rooms in the wilderness, someone would probably just stumble onto it and clean it out unceremoniously before the treasure hunters found it. The beasts would wander off or disappear as of the next reboot. It would just all feel too contrived and un-IC to me.

The treasure itself is secondary to the fun and activity it would generate. But the characters don't have the means themselves and the staff is, understandably, adverse to providing "positive" outcomes because soon they'd be inundated in requests for them if they did.

[Semper]

It doesn't have to be on the scale of the black moon plot (which, by the way, was largely started and run by players to my knowledge, but given further boost by the staff, which I think is ideal), but having that kind of visible staff presence helping to guide and push plots in open-ended directions is huge. Also, many of these large, world-changing plots require magick in some form. I think what players simply want are more staff support in the mundane things. The copper wars being another good example of it, but again, on a smaller scale.

And, it's been repeated by a number of players on this thread with their own personal experiences, but while some player plots might not be possible with them alone, I think a much better way that staff could help improve things is by giving hints, or some tools to players who want to try running plots, rather than shooting them down or having players run -everything- until it gets big enough for staff to participate. If the staff can support player-generated plots from the beginning, and it doesn't have to be -every- plot, but when players have enough invested in something, having the staff add in other (possibly unforeseen) elements into them would go a long way to improve the present model.

I mentioned it before, but while players can throw the stones to make waves, the waves won't be very large unless the staff give us the tools to make bigger waves.

[edited to add: Thanks for the reply, Talia. More staff animation in the area of furthering along or giving pleasnt (or not) surprises to player plots would be a great improvement to things. The only possible issue I find is to what extent those animations would be.

[Talia]

Also, I very much appreciate the staff starting a thread like this, and I think it's wonderful to have, but the answers that have been provided by the staff aren't very reassuring, given how long this thread is running, with a lot of the same themes being repeated. It's like giving a pill to fix the problem rather than getting to the actual problem.

Well, as I said in the original post, Adhira has already stated the policy is not going to be changing. What has happened in this thread is mostly players saying "I want the policy changed." ...OK? I get it. I hear you. But it's not going to happen.

So in lieu of the policy being changed, my question is what can be done? And players, to be frank, as a group you have mostly just pointed fingers. I have not seen anyone saying, "I think I can do more of XYZ" or "I can contribute ABC" or "Now that I think about it, I really haven't tried LMN." I don't see any introspection on the part of the players. That's fairly disheartening and disappointing, because there are MANY more players than there are staff, so what you all do has the potential to impact the game much more widely than anything we can do. (Note, when I say "impact" I mostly mean "create fun.")

I don't have any solutions to offer you, because what you guys are demanding as The Solution has already been stated--it's not going to happen. Nyr and I have both been in here saying there are some things we can be doing better. We just aren't telling you what you want to hear, which is an agreement that the policy should and will be changed.

[Nyr]

Yes, a few people keep proclaiming on the the GDB how much new stuff is going in. I've yet to see any of it, at least in Allanak or Red Storm. Same rooms, same items, day after week after month. Oh, some NPC soldiers got new sdescs.

All this new building must be hidden away in clan compounds or so.

would like a word with you

[Salt Merchant]

Yes, a few people keep proclaiming on the the GDB how much new stuff is going in. I've yet to see any of it, at least in Allanak or Red Storm. Same rooms, same items, day after week after month. Oh, some NPC soldiers got new sdescs.

All this new building must be hidden away in clan compounds or so.

would like a word with you

Very nice, but not an example of a player-driven plot.

[lepxii]

If:
- There were much fewer sponsored roles.
- And.. Much fewer clans slots available for 'free food & water + 400 'sid a month' PCs.
- And... Survival was actually hard, scrapping enough 'sid to survive was actually difficult.

Then... Plots would be much more player driven. Players would haul stuff between cities (to make 'sid), rob old tombs (to make 'sid), and whatnot, on their own accord. Instead of trying to move GMHs around, you'd have itsy-bitsy organizations (that would be stomped on by the GMHs and nobles).

As it is, it is very easy to survive. there are many sponsored roles, and as a result many lackeys on the 'free food & water, spar all day' routine. And plots... Well, plots as a result have to be overarching and require heavy staff involvement. Leaders in GM/Noble houses need to interact with higher-ups (imms), and in order to achieve something meaningful (build and establishment, build a wagon, pass a motion in the senate, start a war with 'nak) need heavy imm involvement and support.

PCs end up being long-lived, relatively lazy, and low risk takers, and fairly loyal to their organizations. Yes- this is highly realistic for a PC employed by a GMH to act this way. But, wouldn't it be more exciting if you were forced to scrape out a living?

Plots in such an environment (where most players are much lower on the social ladder than today) would be much more low-level. Protecting your meager resource in the wilderness from a competing PC group or earning 5000 'sid would suddenly *mean something*.

[Talia]

Very nice, but not an example of a player-driven plot.

You were complaining about not seeing "new stuff go in." The HRPT prompted a ton of "new stuff going in" in the aftermath, both north and south. Most of it's not done yet. But just because you're not seeing it doesn't mean it's not happening. There are a LOT of building-type plots happening, ALL player-driven.

[Cutthroat]

1. Anything new is very unlikely to be supported. Buildings, items, whatever. Until Arm 2.0.

Have you been trying in the past 18 months? Did your PC actually have the means to make these things? If the answers to both of these questions are "yes", I find this observation very hard to believe, primarily because it's proven wrong by the new buildings/items/rooms that have been put into the game, or are in the process of being put in, in the last 18 months, by players.

Yes, a few people keep proclaiming on the the GDB how much new stuff is going in. I've yet to see any of it, at least in Allanak or Red Storm. Same rooms, same items, day after week after month. Oh, some NPC soldiers got new sdescs.

All this new building must be hidden away in clan compounds or so.

Or in the rest of the world, I guess.

2. "Positive" quests (e.g. find the treasure/artifact) are very unlikely to be supported. They don't fit in with the harsh atmosphere.

What puts you in a position to ask the staff to load an item for you to find? It's not that it doesn't fit in with the harsh atmosphere (it should, it follows that if entire cities have been destroyed then there are ruins in various places in the Known), it's that you're asking for something to do that will just result in a free item for you, after your PC randomly gains a reason to search for it.

Note the word "quests". I'll give an example that address both points 1 and 2. I had a Byn PC that wrote in to the staff to propose that a little script be set up to allow Byn to dig in the training yard (maybe as punishment detail), in an attempt to clean it up a bit. The idea was, after enough 'dig' commands, one would strike a box. More dig commands would unearth it. After finding someone to open the lock, in it would be an old Byn banner that could be carried, heavy enough to appear as an addendum to an sdesc they way heavy objects do.

So some fun, some RP, an object useful to add color to the game, but little staff interest.

If there's no IC reason for the box to be there, what makes you think it would be placed there because you wanted it to be? That's what I mean - staff aren't going to throw stuff in because of a plan you have on a whim. It has to make sense.

This plot makes more sense, since your PC is actually doing the planting:

I also had a Whiran who, unsurprisingly, given his talents, didn't find it too difficult to amass some coin. I figured maybe I'd set up my own treasure out in the wilderness, gather a few beasts to "guard" it, and try to start a treasure hunt. But it seemed futile, because, without staff help, I couldn't see how to plant a trail of clues to make the hunt interesting. Also, with the limited number of save rooms in the wilderness, someone would probably just stumble onto it and clean it out unceremoniously before the treasure hunters found it. The beasts would wander off or disappear as of the next reboot. It would just all feel too contrived and un-IC to me.

The treasure itself is secondary to the fun and activity it would generate. But the characters don't have the means themselves and the staff is, understandably, adverse to providing "positive" outcomes because soon they'd be inundated in requests for them if they did.

And it's too bad that didn't go through, because that actually sounds fun. If it had been meshed with a new 'dig' script like you wanted for the Byn banner box plot, you wouldn't have to worry about someone stumbling onto it before it was ready. I think if you worked something out with your staff these days something like that would be very possible.

[Salt Merchant]

Very nice, but not an example of a player-driven plot.

You were complaining about not seeing "new stuff go in." The HRPT prompted a ton of "new stuff going in" in the aftermath, both north and south. Most of it's not done yet. But just because you're not seeing it doesn't mean it's not happening. There are a LOT of building-type plots happening, ALL player-driven.

No, my original point was that a character is very unlikely to be able to effect any change on the world. There are a few, like LoD of old, with the patience, drive, charisma and longevity to see it through. Then Cutthroat said there is plenty and I replied that I haven't seen it.

Funny too, because my current character is especially well able to poke into all nooks and crannies.

[Synthesis]

If:
- There were much fewer sponsored roles.
- And.. Much fewer clans slots available for 'free food & water + 400 'sid a month' PCs.
- And... Survival was actually hard, scrapping enough 'sid to survive was actually difficult.

Then... Plots would be much more player driven. Players would haul stuff between cities (to make 'sid), rob old tombs (to make 'sid), and whatnot, on their own accord. Instead of trying to move GMHs around, you'd have itsy-bitsy organizations (that would be stomped on by the GMHs and nobles).

As it is, it is very easy to survive. there are many sponsored roles, and as a result many lackeys on the 'free food & water, spar all day' routine. And plots... Well, plots as a result have to be overarching and require heavy staff involvement. Leaders in GM/Noble houses need to interact with higher-ups (imms), and in order to achieve something meaningful (build and establishment, build a wagon, pass a motion in the senate, start a war with 'nak) need heavy imm involvement and support.

PCs end up being long-lived, relatively lazy, and low risk takers, and fairly loyal to their organizations. Yes- this is highly realistic for a PC employed by a GMH to act this way. But, wouldn't it be more exciting if you were forced to scrape out a living?

Plots in such an environment (where most players are much lower on the social ladder than today) would be much more low-level. Protecting your meager resource in the wilderness from a competing PC group or earning 5000 'sid would suddenly *mean something*.

PC turnover in clans is a lot higher than you'd think.  Sure, every once in awhile you get a long-lived "worker" PC, but most of the long-lifers are aides and city-based roles.  Every once in a while you get a solid core group of hunters/grebbers who last months or more in a clan, but from my experience, this is rather unusual.

[Semper]

RE: Salt Merchant
The black moon and mountains and all that was actually started by a group of players. Of course the end results required both staff and player participation, but it's a prime example of what can be done when players -and- staff work together on something.

I don't have any solutions to offer you, because what you guys are demanding as The Solution has already been stated--it's not going to happen. Nyr and I have both been in here saying there are some things we can be doing better. We just aren't telling you what you want to hear, which is an agreement that the policy should and will be changed.

The present model is fine, and I can quote a few players that have stated so on this thread. Also, I think we'll probably agree there's more the players can do to 'make things happen', but I guess what's frustrating is that we don't fully understand what exactly the staff wants us to do, when a lot of what we attempt gets denied, or in one way or another, progress is stopped or slowed to a standstill.

It's like the staff telling the players to run, all the while pushing (or holding) them back when there's some progress made. In a lot of ways, this is probably due to miscommunication, and I'm not at all saying it's the staff's fault alone. I'm just saying there may be better avenues of responding to players instead of simple yes's and no's.

I'll be one to add that having more animations, and better communication between staff and players will take a lot more from staff than at preset. Let us know how -we- can help, and I think lots more would be ready to do so.

[lepxii]

PC turnover in clans - yes it is high for new hires. However, much of this is due to player boredom than any real IG cause. Heck, most clans have "anti boredom" rules and highly stress the fact that new hires should not do W, X, Y & Z activities (which are dangerous, and often kill new hires who do them on their own) -- of course, it seems that many of the new hires end up doing them anyway (leading to a loop, if you may, in which said new hires die/disappear, and said rules are reasserted).

[Salt Merchant]

RE: Salt Merchant
The black moon and mountains and all that was actually started by a group of players. Of course the end results required both staff and player participation, but it's a prime example of what can be done when players -and- staff work together on something.

Yes, I know this, but face it: the results came from a staff-implemented decision tree. It's not something a player can request to have happen, obviously. It's not what we're talking about in this thread.

[X-D]

On the subject of not seeing player run changes.

I know of at least 6 (keep in mind there could be many more, but this is what I know of for sure) In areas just about anybody can see, less then two years old. Of course, unless you were involved in some manner with them, you are not likely to know they are player changes. But hey, next time you stable your mount in a certain area, thank the players for that.

[Nyr]

There is no end of the world plot.  For those of you under the impression that we have a grand end of the world plot and are railroading you all down the road to glorious destruction, we are not.  Those plots wrapped up as of the last HRPT, at which point it was determined to stop pursuing a never-ending end of the world.  This wasn't clarified when it occurred, but I have confirmed this is the case.

[Semper]

RE: Salt Merchant
The black moon and mountains and all that was actually started by a group of players. Of course the end results required both staff and player participation, but it's a prime example of what can be done when players -and- staff work together on something.

Yes, I know this, but face it: the results came from a staff-implemented decision tree. It's not something a player can request to have happen, obviously. It's not what we're talking about in this thread.

Let's get this straight.

Staff instead will be concentrating on facilitating the stories that players are creating. The overall goal is that gameplay happens at a level that is accessible to players, allowing them to feel a very real part of the action.

Another goal with the change is to move the focus of Storytellers from the administrative side of running clans, to the story oriented side. With a Highlord in charge of each group we hope that much of the admin work can be relieved and with dedicated HL's for each group decisions can get sign off at the team level.

The overall aim of this is to see STs out there animating every day, because they -want- to, to see plots and stories that reflect what players are interested in and want to achieve and staff supporting what you all are doing.

<snip>

While we want to focus our attentions on making the game more player driven as staff we still need to share a vision for the game. There will always be a need for oversight and direction at the macro level, what we want to make sure is that most of the action plays out at the micro level, where the players are, rather than up high where you are more observer than participant.

I won't go into specific details with the whole black moon/elements plot that happened, as I wasn't a large part of it to say much, but I'll take what I know from it in general.

Players took the initiative to start something. They worked on the micro level until things got big enough that staff stepped in. It's the new mountains and floods and other geographic changes that took place that are the macro level, staff-implemented things. Players had a say in the smaller, micro-level decisions that impacted where things went, the pacing, etc, to a large degree.

What I think players are misunderstanding, is that when you mean "player-driven", it is not like players are becoming some dungeon master on the level of staff. While the players do have a very large potential to change things, certain things just aren't possible player-side, like deciding that a fucking mountain will rise up, how large that mountain will be, the impact it will have on the city, the timing of it, etc. All of those decisions can be impacted by players, but the actual decision making is for staff to decide. What it sounds like, are that when players think of "player-driven" plots, they think they can do all those decision-making on their own.

To use an example made just a few posts ago. A digging plot in the Byn compound to produce a box with a Byn banner. Sure, players can dig to help clean up the Byn compound, but it's the staff's decisions -what- they end up finding. A player could change this by putting something of their -own- possession there (whether in the past, with another PC, or at that present), but we can't have the staff add in these elements that are an area to be left to the staff.

[Shabago]

These are designed to try and HELP give the PB examples of what they can or can't do based off of staff replies. Yes, we get the policy isn't going to change (sad this was decided before this discussion even occured) but I think the following work within these new (evidentally misunderstood) guidelines.

Conflict, on the larger scale:

My PC Templar (I don't have one, just example) absolutely hates Tuluk. They go about getting as much of the player-base within Allanak whipped into a frenzy to go and kick their arses, and ships off various insults or what-not to try and goad Tuluk into the same state. Will this happen?

My PC has the drive, allies, coin and materials to re-open a raiding clan (like the Blackmoon) to cause conflict against the city states/settlements. Will we get the support of a built hide-out/business location, NPCs built, etc?

My PC spends X-amount of time and effort to try and cause a certain creature to be "burned out" of a location to attack Tuluk, or the outlying outpost to really add to the issues already being dealt with. Would this happen?

My D-elf decides that they REALLY hate another settlement and various actions are taken to try and bring about a war (Random example of the Soh against the Akei) Would this happen?

My Guilder decides to try and rally the whole of the Rinth over time to assist the 'Crew' in an organized raid on Allanak proper food-stuff locations to let those damn dirty southsiders starve instead of them for a change. Would this get support?

Now, there's a handful of "player driven" thought up plans/story-lines/plots. If some receive a "Yes, it's doable" terrific. If it's a "No." perhaps a brief line on why they're not could be added? I think it would go a long way to clear up issues from the OP and give the PB a more clear cut guideline on what's still feasable to run with/try.

[Salt Merchant]

To use an example made just a few posts ago. A digging plot in the Byn compound to produce a box with a Byn banner. Sure, players can dig to help clean up the Byn compound, but it's the staff's decisions -what- they end up finding. A player could change this by putting something of their -own- possession there (whether in the past, with another PC, or at that present), but we can't have the staff add in these elements that are an area to be left to the staff.

And? In my original post, I stated that these are things that players can't do. My question was, what's left?

So what's left? I guess it's just stealing someone's stuff, plotting to kill her lover, and other negatives.

We're given the responsibility to start and run the plots, yet we don't have a lot of the tools we need to really make it work outside of a narrow range.

Actually, I'll provide some examples of tools that would really help:

1. The ability to bury things, and have the game remember where they are.

2. Proper tools for raiders. The ability to set ambushes (if one takes long enough and has
a sand-colored cover, maybe, even without stealth skills), and properly block roads, for example. The ability to remain more anonymous when looked at.

3. Relax the restriction on reading and writing. The possibilities opened would be endless.

4. An automated system for creating custom crafts in limited categories. For example, I'm sure there would be a market for the creation of busts and statues of existing notable PCs. What noble wouldn't want a chamber with some busts of his notable ancestors (PCs past)? Have the quality of the piece depend on the skill of the maker. Nobles would have to send out expeditions for rare materials. A chance for real patronage of the arts in Tuluk, in the form of sculptors (implement a low-improvement-rate sculpting skill)?

Yet we're paralyzed developmentally by Arm 2.0.

[Talia]

The present model is fine, and I can quote a few players that have stated so on this thread. Also, I think we'll probably agree there's more the players can do to 'make things happen', but I guess what's frustrating is that we don't fully understand what exactly the staff wants us to do, when a lot of what we attempt gets denied, or in one way or another, progress is stopped or slowed to a standstill.

It's like the staff telling the players to run, all the while pushing (or holding) them back when there's some progress made. In a lot of ways, this is probably due to miscommunication, and I'm not at all saying it's the staff's fault alone. I'm just saying there may be better avenues of responding to players instead of simple yes's and no's.

I mentioned things I'd like to see done by players in my original post:

-- Players do get told "no" fairly frequently about plots they want to run. There can be a lot of reasons for this: Game or clan or player balance, lack of Zalanthan technology to do such a thing, doesn't make IC sense, etc. Thus far I have not seen any "no"s given where I didn't think it was very solid--and there is a lot of dialogue staff-side about these things, from all quarters. That is, if you're told no, there's a very good reason behind it.

-- Players have sometimes taken the policy to mean that they can just tell staff after the fact about a plot idea, clan change, etc. But player-driven does not mean the same thing as players making all the decisions.

-- Frequent player reporting helps plots move along. Staff assumes that if you're not telling us what you're doing toward a plotline, then you don't care about it. So if you do care about it, please tell us about it. We're not going to just step in and take over; if player interest fizzles, the plot fizzles. I suggest weekly reports that detail your plot progress.

-- Running your plot ideas OOCly past your clan staff before you ever do anything toward them in game is very helpful. Sometimes there are OOC reasons why a plot cannot proceed, and you will be told that up front before wasting your efforts. If there aren't OOC reasons, we'll say that, and then you can proceed to try it out.

-- When you involve more PCs than your immediate circle, and especially more clans than just yours, your plot is far more likely to garner interest, attention, and support amongst the staff.

-- Building plots (that is, the kind of plot where you want to build a building or a garden or a new series of items or whatnot) are OK, but let's be honest here: Most of the time they are not very exciting. If you want excitement in your plots, I would suggest a few things: 1. Look for ways to make conflict between individuals and organizations, 2. Think about kinds of plots that would require adventuring RPTs.

-- Everyone always wants war. But, war is very time-intensive for staff (buildup, battles, and then aftermath) and it also leads to a lot of player complaints of unfairness if it's between PC groups. Might I suggest that players look into cold war, instead of hot war? Envision what a Zalanthan cold war and covert actions against individuals and organizations might look like. I can't/won't guarantee this can happen either, but I think it's more viable.

-- If you want or hope for staff presence and attention at your RPTs, arrange with staff what is a good time for us first, before you ask your players. Each staffer has limited time and limited times we can be in game. We can't be there if we can't be there.

I'd emphasize there that frequent, well-organized, informative character reporting is IMO the very most important thing you can do for player-staff communication and thus plot success.

Another thought about your reports is that you might try actually giving us IC stuff that you'd like leaked to the clan, in your reports. Personally, if you tell me "Well, Malik's been seen feeling up a gemmer, some people might have noticed that," then I'm going to be very interested in jumping into a gossipy low-level clan NPC and spreading the rumor. Rumors are fun! But you might need to help me out. If you give me fodder for animations, it makes it mentally easier for me to jump into them, rather than just "Well, I guess I haven't animated for these guys in a while...I have nothing to say...but let's give it a go." Sometimes players are not good at separating IC from OOC in reports, either--something for you all to work on, as well as staff.

Off the top of my head, other things you can do:

-- Wish up when you are taking your group out of the city gates. We might be able to respond with some animation. Yes, it will probably be dangerous! But it will also be fun. And note, you don't have to be the group leader to do the wishing up--it's OK to wish up just in case your group leader hasn't done it. Then, while you are on your trip, you might think about stopping somewhere, resting, and/or taking the road slowly. If a PC group wants to travel quickly and uninterrupted, the staff's desire to animate some fun danger for you won't do anything to stop that from happening--we won't be able to catch you.

-- Wish up when you are hanging around the clan compound or wherever and you'd love a random animation. Be polite. Wish up only once. We may not be able to get to it, and/or the appropriate staffer may not be online. But if you ask for what you want, you might get it.

-- Be in the appropriate place for your clan, and follow the clan schedule if there is one. For hypothetical example, if you're playing a Runner in the Byn but you're constantly out grebbing in the salt flats (breaking the rules), it's going to be much harder for me to find you for animations. And you will probably miss animations that happen when I see two or three other Bynners gathered together. When I animate, I'm looking for maximum impact to the time I'm spending--it's more satisfying and effective when there's a few of you hanging out together.

-- When you do get a random animation in your clan, please refrain from treating that non-boss NPC like they're all that or should know everything. Sometimes staffers feel uncomfortable animating for you if you're going to take the animation as being The Hand Of God. Make it enjoyable for us, too, when we're just trying to add some flavor or spice up your life.

I'll be pondering other stuff players can do to get what you want and post if I come up with anything. (More animations seems to be something players want, overall.)