Let's dialogue about plots

[Nyr]

Over time you tend to notice how some sets of players tend to get their shit approved while others don't and the plot(s) seem fairly similar and comparable at least from the outside.

Too many variables (are you comparing good players that have high karma and good notes to players with low/no karma, bad notes, or just a bad reputation with staff?).  If you'd like, send in a request, I'll look into specific examples, and while I may not be able to give you details, I can tell you whether or not favoritism was involved.  There have been a lot of new staff policies for staffers in the past 10 years, many towards reducing the kind of favoritism to which you refer (since these policies did have to be enacted, it gives credence to there having been some instances of favoritism before).  I was referring to you also since we seem to disagree on the GDB in this instance yet I have approved at least one thing for you.  Some players can be absolutely irritating on the GDB, but if they are good roleplayers and not irritating in the same way in direct staff communication, I personally will be willing to work with them on their plots.  (You know who you are.)

[X-D]

I don't think staff likes me. (far from it)

But I've never had problems with the plots I've had.

As has been posted before in this thread. And on past threads (LoD had a good one some time ago) there are certain...Hoops...one has to jump through. No way around it. If you neglect them your plots will fail or go VERY slow.

I'm not going to search for LoD's post, it is rather old.

But with Thrain, he had to inform staff of intentions, he had to involve PC AND NPC population, he had to work each step and I'm betting that since it was before request tool, there was dozens of emails on his part every week. And a lot of work staff side.

[Twilight]

We aren't mindworms and don't know that's what you want unless you tell us it's what you want. Being as clear as possible with us helps us give you what you want.

This pretty much illustrates my point.  I am talking precisely about giving players contextual information beyond what they have specifically asked for in their reports.  As it is, I'm not even burying my questions in my reports any more...I have a section I am dedicating to "Questions I would specifically like answered."  And only those questions get answered.  Very concisely.  That is the problem I am trying to highlight.

[Talia]

This pretty much illustrates my point.  I am talking precisely about giving players contextual information beyond what they have specifically asked for in their reports.  As it is, I'm not even burying my questions in my reports any more...I have a section I am dedicating to "Questions I would specifically like answered."  And only those questions get answered.  Very concisely.  That is the problem I am trying to highlight.

Ah. I think what you mean...if I'm interpreting correctly...is that you want to feel the same nuances you used to get by meeting with an NPC who's being animated. Is that it? So if you were playing a noble and meeting with your noble boss, you'd get hints dropped about the plots going on around you, or about how your organization should feel about another organization, etc. That kind of context?

[Twilight]

That is a good deal of it.  Essentially, it seems to me that information used to be offered up from the staff side.  Now what I see are concise responses that pretty much only address my specific questions.

Asking questions and receiving answers is great.  I just don't think using that format as the bulk of the communication format is very satisfying.  Especially when the tendancy is to be concise, rather than elaborate on things.  I understand that being concise on the staff side is probably the most efficient, for staff.  Please understand it isn't necessarily the most efficient or satisfying experience for the player (or this player, at least).

[Voular]

I'd really love staff giving INPUT on your characters and what they're doing, be it through NPCs he/she might meet (bosses, servants, commoners, passer-bys, traders) or through perhaps more OOC channels. Sometimes even the smallest of plot hints can spiral into larger more awesome things. I know I've received such in the past, but back when I started in 2007 I had access to a staff avatar at all times, and didn't realize it until a good while after I moved on from that character. It was awesome. So awesome in fact that I sort of miss it.

[Shabago]

Disclaimer: This is how _I_ would view things from strictly a players stand-point, without bringing in any knowledge of fact or fiction I may know from time on staff.

How does hands off need fixing/adjusting etc:

What's hands off about it? Staff still run the show. If a plot or storyline doesn't fit the time-frame or "Grand Vision" (tm) that the minority decide on, it's just not going to happen. I believe that this new staffing policy has lead to increased tensions between players and staff. This policy makes it far more clear that the bottom line is, it's your (staffs) game, and we're allowed to play it. Just MY opinion, but I imagine there's a fair bit of resentment within the playerbase that intelligence is being insulted by thinly veiled cover-ups on this fact, such as "Be the change" or my personal favorite, "Sure you can do X, Y or Z" which is an incomplete answer. The rest of it is "So long as you somehow manage to stop Krath itself from rotating, Kill Tektolnes, morph into a Dragon and fly off to a brand new planet, because we really don't want it to happen, so we'll make it impossible TO happen but still give the impression it was possible all along."

Without staff just driving the car (openly) with their own plots/storylines, various players will become butt-hurt when they see PC X get his/her plot supported because it "fits" with what staff want to have happen, or otherwise won't affect a single thing on the larger scale, while their own are repeatedly declined for lack of fit. I'm sorry, but I just don't recall seeing THIS level of hostility/arguements/disagreements/GDB discussions and so on when the PB just logged in to have "Fun" by joining in on whatever storyline/plot was "in your face visible" because staff were running it, could point you in the direction of the "fun" by a superior NPC animation, give you a "quest" when things were in a lull period, and so on.

Again, that is what I believe the impression is. Maybe I should make a poll to see if I got it right. 

[tortall]

Disclaimer: This is how _I_ would view things from strictly a players stand-point, without bringing in any knowledge of fact or fiction I may know from time on staff.

How does hands off need fixing/adjusting etc:

What's hands off about it? Staff still run the show. If a plot or storyline doesn't fit the time-frame or "Grand Vision" (tm) that the minority decide on, it's just not going to happen. I believe that this new staffing policy has lead to increased tensions between players and staff. This policy makes it far more clear that the bottom line is, it's your (staffs) game, and we're allowed to play it. Just MY opinion, but I imagine there's a fair bit of resentment within the playerbase that intelligence is being insulted by thinly veiled cover-ups on this fact, such as "Be the change" or my personal favorite, "Sure you can do X, Y or Z" which is an incomplete answer. The rest of it is "So long as you somehow manage to stop Krath itself from rotating, Kill Tektolnes, morph into a Dragon and fly off to a brand new planet, because we really don't want it to happen, so we'll make it impossible TO happen but still give the impression it was possible all along."

Without staff just driving the car (openly) with their own plots/storylines, various players will become butt-hurt when they see PC X get his/her plot supported because it "fits" with what staff want to have happen, or otherwise won't affect a single thing on the larger scale, while their own are repeatedly declined for lack of fit. I'm sorry, but I just don't recall seeing THIS level of hostility/arguements/disagreements/GDB discussions and so on when the PB just logged in to have "Fun" by joining in on whatever storyline/plot was "in your face visible" because staff were running it, could point you in the direction of the "fun" by a superior NPC animation, give you a "quest" when things were in a lull period, and so on.

Again, that is what I believe the impression is. Maybe I should make a poll to see if I got it right. 

Bolded the biggest things I agree with, and, erm.... Did a bit more with the BIGGEST point.

I've had staff tell me that if they "think I do not fit into the world", I will be stored, no questions or comments allowed. To me, this comes down to the staff basically saying "I do not like you as a player and I do not what to deal with you so I'm going to force you to move on and this action I'm doing will make you stay away from any other clan I'm over so I will never have to deal with you again. Mwhahaha."

Now, that's not always the intention, but that's how it's come off to me on more than one occasion.

[Talia]

Talking about particular problems that you experienced with staff over the activities of a particular PC is a derail. You may bring that up in a different thread. This thread is for talking about plots, not PCs.

[staggerlee]

Disclaimer: This is how _I_ would view things from strictly a players stand-point, without bringing in any knowledge of fact or fiction I may know from time on staff.

How does hands off need fixing/adjusting etc:

What's hands off about it? Staff still run the show. If a plot or storyline doesn't fit the time-frame or "Grand Vision" (tm) that the minority decide on, it's just not going to happen. I believe that this new staffing policy has lead to increased tensions between players and staff. This policy makes it far more clear that the bottom line is, it's your (staffs) game, and we're allowed to play it. Just MY opinion, but I imagine there's a fair bit of resentment within the playerbase that intelligence is being insulted by thinly veiled cover-ups on this fact, such as "Be the change" or my personal favorite, "Sure you can do X, Y or Z" which is an incomplete answer. The rest of it is "So long as you somehow manage to stop Krath itself from rotating, Kill Tektolnes, morph into a Dragon and fly off to a brand new planet, because we really don't want it to happen, so we'll make it impossible TO happen but still give the impression it was possible all along."

Without staff just driving the car (openly) with their own plots/storylines, various players will become butt-hurt when they see PC X get his/her plot supported because it "fits" with what staff want to have happen, or otherwise won't affect a single thing on the larger scale, while their own are repeatedly declined for lack of fit. I'm sorry, but I just don't recall seeing THIS level of hostility/arguements/disagreements/GDB discussions and so on when the PB just logged in to have "Fun" by joining in on whatever storyline/plot was "in your face visible" because staff were running it, could point you in the direction of the "fun" by a superior NPC animation, give you a "quest" when things were in a lull period, and so on.

Again, that is what I believe the impression is. Maybe I should make a poll to see if I got it right.  

The veiled separation of in game and out of game always exacerbates conflict. There's no avoiding that. The same mystery that makes the game interesting builds doubt in players that hit speed bumps, or full on roadblocks. They get to wonder "is this all ic?" or "Maybe the staff are just trying to stop me?"

You can't have one without the other. Total transparency would solve the problem, but you don't really want that.

I like grand plots, and staff involvement in plots, and I also like player plots. The staff always facilitate those things to varying degrees. Some of them fly, and some of them hit brick walls. The key to success is to improve your communication with the staff, and in doing so, your relationship with them. Surprises lead to hurt feelings on both sides of the fence.

Players that want to be successfully involved in big plots need to:

A:   Be patient.  (Sometimes you'll have unresponsive staff, unresponsive players, misunderstandings, conflicts, and so on. You have to be willing to wait through the dry spells, and things take TIME.)
B:  Trust the staff. (They are usually hear for the good of the game, and doing their best. It might not always be true, but you'll be happier if you assume it is.)
C:  Learn to communicate with staff. (And hope that they're as interested in communication as you are.)
D:   Acquire a knowledge of the game world that allows you to discern somewhat reliably between "possible ic" and "impossible ic."  (You need to know what's possible, and that's learned through trial and error. Watch effective players, and work with them.)


...this thread made me miss the game. Lizzie is still grouchy, Nyr is still reasonable, XD is still cantankerous, and so forth. I'm glad to see everyone is staying ic, and I miss it all! Someone pay me a reasonable wage to come back and play.

[tortall]

Talking about particular problems that you experienced with staff over the activities of a particular PC is a derail. You may bring that up in a different thread. This thread is for talking about plots, not PCs.

Actually, I was responding to Shabago saying that it's the staff's game, we're just allowed to play it. I'm not talking about a particular PC.

Such has been true for plot lines as well. We have an End of the World plot line we're SLOWLY trying to follow. If the ideas I have never fit with that, and I don't get any assistance from staff as to what I COULD be doing, I'm just plain stuck. It's the staff's game, we're just allowed to play it.

[Reiloth]

I've enjoyed the new policy.

When Staff doesn't want me to run a plot (IE: One of my PC's gets told by a superior IG that they don't think that's a good idea, yada yada) if it is still IC for my character to do what he or she wants to do, they will do it. They will...Wait for it...Disobey their boss! With the potential of...Waaaaait...Consequences!

Sure -- A lot of plots like making a new building, making a new wagon...Things that rely on Staff intervention...Well, they need just that. Staff intervention. And if they are not on board, you are fucked.

On the other hand -- Player driven plots are driven by players. Most of the time, you do not need to do anything besides inform the Staff of your intended actions, or actions already taken.

--

I think we can have Staff fill in the deets a bit with clan emails back and forth (ALA What Twilight said), but other than that, i'm totally fine with the system as is. I enjoy NPC interaction from time to time, but don't rely on it. Railroad plots are also fun from time to time, but again, i'd rather them be the exception than the rule.

[Talia]

We have an End of the World plot line we're SLOWLY trying to follow. If the ideas I have never fit with that, and I don't get any assistance from staff as to what I COULD be doing, I'm just plain stuck. It's the staff's game, we're just allowed to play it.

I would recommend that you don't attempt to "fit" what you are doing to what the staff has done or is doing. The end of the world will come when it comes, how it comes. Meantime, there are tons of other plots that you (or anyone) could be pursuing that have absolutely nothing to do with the end of the world. Not to mention, unless your PC has significant personal reasons to believe in an end to the world and to try to work something out regarding it--it doesn't make a lot of IC sense to try doing. Just play what you want to play because you want to play it.

[tortall]

We have an End of the World plot line we're SLOWLY trying to follow. If the ideas I have never fit with that, and I don't get any assistance from staff as to what I COULD be doing, I'm just plain stuck. It's the staff's game, we're just allowed to play it.

I would recommend that you don't attempt to "fit" what you are doing to what the staff has done or is doing. The end of the world will come when it comes, how it comes. Meantime, there are tons of other plots that you (or anyone) could be pursuing that have absolutely nothing to do with the end of the world. Not to mention, unless your PC has significant personal reasons to believe in an end to the world and to try to work something out regarding it--it doesn't make a lot of IC sense to try doing. Just play what you want to play because you want to play it.

The thing is, I don't try. But -because- they don't fit, nothing happens. This is from -my- view. I've heard others say they don't have this issue.


I WOULD like to state that over all I do enjoy player-driven plots, but I'd -also- like to see a few more STAFF plots. Sometimes players just get stuck, and even small little plots that a stffer could do would nudge them to go on and do something the PLAYER would've never thought of.

And also, everything Twilight said. It took me over a year or emailing every week to learn how to phrase my updates in a way that I could get a RESPONSE to my questions. Even then, sometimes it seemed my staffer did not get that I was asking what some of the NPCs in my clan thought, and was hoping for a response.

[Aaron Goulet]

One suggestion that I would like to put forth is more support for PC "antagonists" in the form of clans, etc.  Conflict is what makes any good story (or in this case, plot) interesting, but, at present, there aren't very many antagonists small enough to be affected by player-driven plots.  Mostly, you see:

- Red Fangs
- Rogue magickers

Most independent characters do their best to get along, and few rise in power enough to warrant a thwarting plot that involves more than a few people (at best).

Bringing back the Blackmoon may help, or maybe introducing a new clan altogether.  Players will roll PCs for such things if they are publicly available and staff-supported.  Without any true "enemies" of the major clans, however, I fear most of our conflicts will remain petty squabbles.

The response to this will likely be, "do it yourself", but it seems like a daunting (if not impossible) task without dedicated staff support from the get-go. 

[Dar]

pardon, if I missed the answer to this.  Am I understanding things right? If my character kidnaps, blackmails, charms, or bribes a noble/templar into learning Read/write, that character will get stored?

[wizturbo]

Ah. I think what you mean...if I'm interpreting correctly...is that you want to feel the same nuances you used to get by meeting with an NPC who's being animated. Is that it? So if you were playing a noble and meeting with your noble boss, you'd get hints dropped about the plots going on around you, or about how your organization should feel about another organization, etc. That kind of context?

Personally, I greatly prefer this kind of interaction than email/requests.  For a dozen reasons, but the main two I have are this:

1)  When an interaction happens in the game world, it's part of the game and doesn't feel like an OOC chore or work.  It's much more enriching than via email as well, because it's an actual conversation rather than an email chain that might take a few days to resolve.
2)  Interactions with NPC's in the game can be overheard, intercepted, ectera, making it potentially something interesting for more than just the person in the clan.


I recognize this is much harder to do for staff though, because you can't track the conversations as easily, can't take a few days to think before responding, finding out times to meet with people in different timezones, etc.

[Talia]

pardon, if I missed the answer to this.  Am I understanding things right? If my character kidnaps, blackmails, charms, or bribes a noble/templar into learning Read/write, that character will get stored?

No. What Lizzie said was "kidnap/enslave" with the problem there being slavery. Slaves aren't playable and if a PC is enslaved they will be stored.

[WagonsHo]

Chipping in on two topics...

1)  Character Reports:  I agree with some of what has been said about the response to character reports.  As a leader, I didn't feel like I necessarily needed LONGER responses, but sometimes I did wish that I had a better feel for the context of the clan.  I had no problem coming up with plots/goals, but I often did feel as if my ultimately rather low-ranked leader was operating in a complete and total vacuum.  The times that staff made the context of the clan abundantly clear, especially during two different animations that were truly quite helpful, I always appreciated it greatly.  For the most part, especially since it was my first time in a leadership role, I just had no idea how either my character or I as a player was doing or how the clan reacted to me.  I could have constantly asked, of course, but I was asking so many OTHER questions and sending staff hunting after lots of other tidbits and info that I didn't want to be a burden.  It was also very unclear to me, at times, whether responses were IC (the clan feels this way about X) or OOC (staff feels this way about X).  I should have asked for clarification, but again, I was creating enough work as it was and even had to be told to send in fewer requests and questions because I was overwhelming my poor staffers.

2)  Adventure sub-plots:  I found it to be the easiest thing in the world to generate and drive "building" plots and I really enjoyed them.  This aspect of the game really appeals to me and I think it comes naturally to me.  I found it dastardly difficult to kick off adventure plots.  In part, this was because my active minions were all smart guys that liked staying alive.  In part, this was because my character/leader was also a smart guy and liked his minions staying alive.  When you're in a world context in which just stepping out of the gates in certain directions can lead to a quick death, "adventuring" just doesn't make logical sense to the types of characters that I tend to play (who all really like being alive, thank you).  There were a few adventure plot possibilities floating around, some even hinted at by staff, but every time I brought them up, everyone who respond with, "Please count me out of suicide" and my character couldn't help but agree.  If I'm going to pursue adventure plots, then the IC reward-potential needs to be fairly high and FEEL POSSIBLE.

[Cutthroat]

Staff might be able to give players whose PCs are in positions to start plots ideas on what they could do. In that sense they wouldn't be creating plots for players, but giving PCs goals to accomplish following whichever path they desire. To use a random example, staff could animate a higher-up to approach a House Nenyuk Agent PC and instruct them to build a new apartment building. Now that player has to get creative and figure out on their own how to go about that. After the PC goes through all the IC hoops, the apartment gets added in, and hopefully the PC will have some ideas about what else he can do without a nudge from staff next time. In essence, the role of staff here was primarily to throw the bone (they also changed the area to accommodate the apartment building, but they would have done this if the player though of the plot himself).

If they don't already, staff might also consider rewarding PCs that complete plots or a series of plots, if some kind of reward is warranted. Maybe in the previous example, the Nenyuk higher-up gives 10% of all the rent earned from that apartment to the PC Agent. Now not only is the PC getting more money which he can use for more plots, he is also encouraged to start a new plot: to encourage others to rent in the new apartment building.

Rewards that lead into plots are the best kind of reward. Instead of giving a noble a silver necklace for finishing an important plot, give her a chunk of raw silver the House seniors had on hand, and an invitation to go find someone to forge it into something nice. Money (especially a steady flow of it, which should be easy to give with the relatively new payday code) greases the wheels of some plots. Promotions open up more plots to promoted PCs since they gain more authority.

As to the point on conflict, I think a reasonable compromise between "starting a new clan/clans" (which requires a lot of staff work) and the laissez-faire "let players do it themselves" (which can be daunting or impossible as Goulet said) is sponsoring roles for the sole purpose of causing conflicts (that is not to say the current sponsored roles usually offered don't cause conflicts - they can, and should). Staff could choose players that have demonstrably handled certain types of conflicts well and set them up as raiders, dissenters against certain cities, deserters of certain clans, "terrorists", and worse. In this way, staff leave the conflicts to players, their sole role being dropping the conflict-starters into the game. In essence they are starting plots in this way, but the framework they will come up with will be very bare-bones. They could post on Staff Announcements asking for a few raiders, without being more specific, and give players the task of using their background to describe the PC's stomping grounds, methods, etc. It is up to the players on both sides of the conflict to decide how to proceed.

[Nyr]

To clarify:  if a PC with the power to enslave someone does so, that eventual slave will be stored pretty soon afterwards.  PCs with the power to do so can do that anyway, they just need to understand that in advance.  If your character doesn't have the coded power to enslave someone but does have the skill, talent, and resources to kidnap a noble or templar, I think that's a different situation entirely, and likely to prompt major RP on all sides of the conflict.

[Riev]

Bringing back the Blackmoon may help, or maybe introducing a new clan altogether.  Players will roll PCs for such things if they are publicly available and staff-supported.  Without any true "enemies" of the major clans, however, I fear most of our conflicts will remain petty squabbles.

I don't agree that bringing in new clans would be a good idea, numerous clans have been brought in of late (elf clans, so who cares, but my point stands) and they seem to dotCom bubble their way for a month or two and eventually people lose interest.


I would like to throw my hat into the ring of people saying thus:

The game, overall, is much better administratively than it was even a year ago. Things are smoother, staff is better about responding to things. However, somewhere along the way, adventures got put by the wayside. Players do a good job TRYING to involve others, but it doesn't always happen, and can make people feel left out. Sometimes a bit of a staff-run plot would be nice, a la "I think the players would enjoy it if this happened."

I will reference two plots that are a year old, but I will still be vague about it.

1. A certain elf tribe was attacking a certain city state, relentlessly. Not raiding, as much as being a general bother, tossing arrows and the like. This clan was, entirely, staff run. There was not a single PC. This plotline, for a good number of weeks, caught people's attention in trying to deal with the conflict, and though it ended with rather anti-climactic battles (Who could have known my PC was -so- awesome?) it was a great plot to be involved in.

2. On the flip side, there was another plotline started that dealt with the undead in the game. Now, I'm not sure if it just wasn't pursued by the PC powers-that-be (Perhaps) but it ended up just falling by the wayside. I felt it had great potential, but I suspect it didn't fit in with the timeline, or the gameworld.









All that said, I think one of my best staff-interaction times was when _CERTAIN_UNNAMED_STAFFER animated a creature inside a city that normally does not belong there, I -think-, as a plot line to mess with the clan he was overseeing. I was brought in on it, and in the end, it was an hour or so out of his time, some cool things happened, and there was a great story that that PC told until he was no longer being played. It didn't cause some "Exterminate all _CREATURE_TYPE's" or any overarching plot, it was just good, clean fun. Its was nice to feel that staff play this game -with- the players, alongside.

[Gunnerblaster]

I'd like the Staff to take more of the reins.

Players, or the majority of us, are relatively content to live out our PC's small chunk of life. Not many contribute towards 'the big goal'. The way I see it, the playerbase is a slow-trotting cow. Sometimes, when not motivated, we are more than content to stop and chew on our patch of grass - And that's the end of it. Like a herder or Cowboy, sometimes we need to get poked and prodded back into action.

I know alot of players just WAITING for the chance to be the Hero. The Chance to help keep the ball rolling but I'm more comfortable when the staff develops the ball to be pushed.

The Staff see where they want to go, where they want to see the world of Zalanthas change - We the players are the tools, the implements of change. The world doesn't revolve solely around us.

[Bogre]

I think a big problem with player-driven is that it limits plot involvement to a relatively few number of characters, since a lot of characters die before they get to the point of "okay, now lets start this plot."

And while player driven plots can involve those less-ancient characters, it essentially is relying on the older characters to start them (who may not be inclined to do so for whatever IC reasons.)

[Lizzie]

I should like to add something positive:

In my current clan, I've experienced more IMM-animated leader-type lead-ness, than I have in the last 18 months? worth of characters combined. Now, that is also a downer considering that my last 18 months? of characters combined didn't get much imm-animated lovin at all (and some clanned characters got zero).

I haven't been told what to do..I haven't felt the need to ask for OOC clarification on things, I haven't felt like I was being pressured one way or another on decisions my character has made, or that I've made as a player. It's been pretty awesome actually. I am being held accountable for my character's behavior, however I am -also- getting some "NPC lovin" from the staff, a rare "nudge" toward active participation in "interesting stuff going on with the clan," and I've been included and encouraged to be involved in plotlines that were not of my own devising. I totally love that. I LOVE it. It's totally high-calorie juicy animated goodness, in carefully measured doses.

I just really wish I could see more of this in all the clans, and I think a whole huge chunk of this kind of interaction has been missing ever since the "policy" change.

Edited because I -did- have a whole lot of imm animated leadership NPC lead-ness lovin when I first accepted a sponsored clan leadership role, but then they made that policy change like - 2 months later and it all fell totally silent. I can't remember how long ago it was, I thought it was around 2 years ago. Might be less.