Slaves!

[Synthesis]

There are a lot of other roles where people get bored or frustrated and quickly store. Roles that require a lot of staff support. I imagine based on sheer numbers, there were a lot more quickly-recycled GMH family members in the last few years than there were quickly recycled special app slaves.

Sure, but templars, nobles, merchant family members, etc. are actually necessary in the game. PC slaves aren't.

By the same token, the consequences of storage for a templar, noble, or GMH family member are much greater than for storage of a PC slave (which I imagine would tend toward the inconsequential).

Now that we have the request tool available to keep track of storage requests, I really don't see what the problem is.  So a PC slave gets bored--let them store.  What's the big deal?

[Nyr]

The reason we did this was not solely because people store the roles.

[Synthesis]

The reason we did this was not solely because people store the roles.

All of that stuff falls into the general category of "staff inconvenience," which seems like it should be mitigated by the request tool.

If a player keeps complaining about the role, can't you simply encourage them to store or STFU?

As far as circumventing IC restrictions is concerned...what does that mean? Kadians buying elf slaves to get around the " we don't hire elves" restriction?  It seems like it would be pretty easy to resolve that by releasing, force-storing, or killing the slave PC and giving the Kadian a good smack upside the head (IC and OOC).

[Nyr]

It may seem that way to you but it is not.  It's a bigger burden than it is worth.

[Talia]

All of that stuff falls into the general category of "staff inconvenience," which seems like it should be mitigated by the request tool.

Staff still gets inconvenienced by storages done through the request tool, we just get inconvenienced in a much more efficient manner

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

I believe that muls, at least, should be revisited as a viable (and as perhaps the only) slave role. If staff wished to produce less work for themselves and more fun for the player, I have some suggestions for handling them, and in fact, handling all slaves. I'll tune these suggestions towards the mul slave, though, as there are, of course, nuances, and because they are the only 'slave' race.

1. Limit slaves to X karma or called for roles. Allow only one per year, per account.
2. Allow them to roam the city.
3. Because of the beasts they are, prohibit weapons and armor during any social ventures into the city. Per this, a simplistic mobprog in which the soldier frowned at the PC if they had x item(s) on would probably do the trick.
4. Have soldiers automatically stop slaves from leaving the city, via the normal guard skill.
5. Do not allow slaves in clans without strong current leadership, without at least discussing the matter with the player.
6. Refine social mores within certain clans to allow for mul soldiers. To me, Tor, Borsail, Lyskae, Winrothol, and the GMHs should have places for mul soldiers.
7. Suggest that bad account notes will be given to runaway slaves. This would not be strictly enforced, but the PC would need a serious and well-roleplayed reason to leave. Most slaves are fine with being slaves. Most slaves would never run away, even given the chance. Life as a slave is multitudes easier than life as a free man.

[X-D]

While I agree with 7DV.

My take on what staff has said on slave roles is mostly the setup not being worth the result, which is usually quick suicide, storage, escape (Though I think escape should not be an issue since it would give the people complaining of lack of plots something to do).

So, to add to 7DVs suggestion and help out the point of setup and escape.

First, setup, automate it. Set up a slave pen/auction/merchant in Tuluk and move the one in nak to where it is passed often, say meleths circle.

Have it so muls can only point Tuluk or allanak, let it be known they will start in the slave pen in that city, where they get to wait till somebody buys them. Hell, it would be easy enough to even set it to charge different prices dependent on guild and age.

Make it so only nobles can buy.

On to escape, and this one is easy.

Modify crime code for muls (or anybody with the slave rank) outside the home city. Including Red storm and Luirs. IE, nobody will be flagged for crime against a PC mul outside the home city. And lastly, make it so slave rank cannot be rebeled out of. For anybody. You must be dumped (freed) Or promoted.

There, after that is done then mul slave setup is no harder then any other PC.

As for the merchant houses or the byn, who might be able to get mul slaves, well, they can deal with the nobles on that.

[Semper]

Maybe special app only? You'll have to use up one of your 3 apps for it, with the possibility it might not even pass.

And for clans that have a strong playerbase/leadership.
Limit to humans/muls only, in only a few select clans that have a well-documented, supportive culture for slaves. (Borsail, Lyksae, Winrothol, Legions?)

[X-D]

Actually, that is going the direction that staff stopped slaves to begin with. IE, more staffside work.

[Marshmellow]

I don't know how much setup work special applications actually take, though.  There's probably discussion staff side and consideration, true, and in those cases when people are requesting strange modifiers (like modified skills or stats or miscellany) there is some additional work, but if it was an on/off setting on the account like those special applications for classes/races beyond karma limit, it could take some investment in coding, but little investment in staff time after, very possibly.  I'm not saying this work is worth the effort or not, but just putting for the devil's advocate position.

[Scarecrow]

I think slave Pc's don't work in the long run. If you were a mul waiting in a pen, someone might not buy you for a long, long time, probably before which you'd get dead bored and ask to store the poor sucker. A slave PC would be shackled with so many restrictions you'd just be boned from the get-go. I just think it might seem like fun in concept, but in practice it would very quickly get tiresome. Not to mention you'd have to hope your master logs on when you do, keeps interest in the game, yada yada yada. I just think they're more hassle than they are worth.

[X-D]

If you were a mul waiting in a pen, someone might not buy you for a long, long time, probably before which you'd get dead bored and ask to store the poor sucker

Yup, your right, that is the point.

A slave PC would be shackled with so many restrictions you'd just be boned from the get-go. I just think it might seem like fun in concept, but in practice  it would very quickly get tiresome. Not to mention you'd have to hope your master logs on when you do, keeps interest in the game, yada yada yada. I just think they're more hassle than they are worth.

Both 7Dv and myself addressed much of the restrictions.

And if the overall process is automated then they become no more of a hassle then any other PC that enters the game and dies 4 hours later to something stupid. But I suppose none of them are worth the hassle either.

I feel sorry for you people with more then 100 dead/stored PCs in 2 years, according to some your too much a hassle to be worthwhile.

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

Technically, you could even have an NPC in those pens who'd auto-store you, taking even more work off of staff.

I disagree with X-D about Tuluk or Nak being the only places to point. Luir's and Storm should still remain. But if you do start in Nak or Tuluk, then you should only start in a pen.

The point here is that X-D and I both don't understand the staffs' position on this, and it's doubtful we will. We both believe that muls have a place as slaves, not just freed slaves, and we both think that that aspect of slavery, unique to muls, needs to be in the game. I believe that we both think that mul slaves add something to the game that freed muls don't, and we think it's worth the time.

We both also know that the issue will probably not be resolved as we would like, but with the staffs' attitude of allowing us to talk about things at length, we're both suggesting ways to simplify things and make them work within the framework of the staffs' concern.

[Scarecrow]

If you were a mul waiting in a pen, someone might not buy you for a long, long time, probably before which you'd get dead bored and ask to store the poor sucker

Yup, your right, that is the point.

A slave PC would be shackled with so many restrictions you'd just be boned from the get-go. I just think it might seem like fun in concept, but in practice  it would very quickly get tiresome. Not to mention you'd have to hope your master logs on when you do, keeps interest in the game, yada yada yada. I just think they're more hassle than they are worth.

Both 7Dv and myself addressed much of the restrictions.

And if the overall process is automated then they become no more of a hassle then any other PC that enters the game and dies 4 hours later to something stupid. But I suppose none of them are worth the hassle either.

I feel sorry for you people with more then 100 dead/stored PCs in 2 years, according to some your too much a hassle to be worthwhile.

You're kind of slightly missing what I'm saying. If a regular PC dies rather quickly, that's just part of the game. I'm talking about slaves in particular. and FYI I don't have 100+ stored/dead characters or anything like that. I'm just saying what I think, about slaves in particular, as they are a special case. As for an automated process, I don't see why it should be implemented. It would be a tonne of work for little gain, as It is almost certain any succh slave playing scenario would quickly stop being used as people got bored of either being cage-bound or just shackled down into the realities of being a slave, and all it's restrictions.

[Kiara]

You make it sound as if there would be a mass exodus of slave storages.

If people do not like roles, they generally do not play them. I'm quite certain players like 7DV like the slave role, at least in regards to muls.

I happen to know for a fact 7DV is quite skilled with this role. Players like him should not suffer because of a few retards.

[X-D]

You're kind of slightly missing what I'm saying. If a regular PC dies rather quickly, that's just part of the game. I'm talking about slaves in particular. and FYI I don't have 100+ stored/dead characters or anything like that. I'm just saying what I think, about slaves in particular, as they are a special case. As for an automated process, I don't see why it should be implemented. It would be a tonne of work for little gain, as It is almost certain any succh slave playing scenario would quickly stop being used as people got bored of either being cage-bound or just shackled down into the realities of being a slave, and all it's restrictions.

No, you missed what I said. Also, you don't seem to have an understanding on what slave roles used to be or what we are suggesting.

And I never said or suggested you had 100 past PCs, it was a bit of sarcasm aimed at other people reading this, the ones that do in fact have that many or more. IE, the argument that quick storage or death is too much a hassle holds no water IF the hassle is reduced to the same as any other PC.

When slave roles were still open, they were not so restricted as being shackled to a wall or something. And what 7DV and I are suggesting would make them about as restricted as any noble house clanned PC.

But they would get the slave RP that some people actually DO enjoy.

As to starting out in the pen, Muls are rare, they are a status item for the owner. If the pen was where people pass all the time, the mul would be picked up by some noble or templar in short order, you can be sure of that.

It is also a tempering period, if you cannot make it in the pen for a few hours, maybe days, you will never make it as a slave.

Generally people on the GDB argue that you have no idea how much work something might be and it is not our concern anyway, but I can say that, almost 100% of the code to set such a thing up already exists in the game, Morg or others could set it up in a few hours I'm sure, maybe a couple more hours to build the rooms and npcs.

As to them being a special case...Um...ya, that is why you would set it up this way, so they are no longer a special case taking no more staff time then any other PC that might live an hour or might live two years or more.

Oh, and 7DV was correct in his summation on how I feel on the matter.

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

I've been further thinking about how to manage these slave roles, for even further ease for staff. I'll be incorporating X-D's thoughts here, as well. The list looks pretty solid. I'm re-posting it in a proposal format, rather than an idea.



Control of Population
1. Limit slaves to mul karma or called for roles. The option to point to 'Allanak (slave)' or 'Tuluk (slave)', in HoK, appears to players with mul karma or those set up see it.
2. Slaves beginning play in Allanak or Tuluk are given no coin. A shirt, pants, and area-appropriate collar are the only equipment provided.
3. Slaves beginning play in Allanak or Tuluk are spawned in the slave pens of Borsail or Winrothol, respectively.
4. Water and food, per clan cooks, are available in the pen. Other accommodations are also provided, ie: cots, sparring weapons, etc.

Purchasing Slaves
5. Via automated merchant, PCs of Noble rank in their clan are able to outright purchase slaves available in the pen for a unfair fee, which is calculated by the age, guild, and race of the slave.
6. If a PC noble of the local slaving House can be found, better prices can be had. This is also the only way for a GMH purchaser to obtain a slave.

Player Freedoms and Restrictions
7. Slaves are allowed in the city, unescorted, both for social purposes and for errands, provided their masters do not have them occupied.
8. It is an uncoded crime for muls to bear a weapon, or to wear anything other than cloth, unless an owner is with them.
9. It is an uncoded crime for slaves to not have ownership collars fully displayed.
10. Soldiers automatically stop muls from leaving the city, via the normal guard skill.
11. Revise IC social mores within Tor, Borsail, Lyskae, Winrothol, and the GMHs to accommodate muls.
12. In any city that is not their coded hometown, other than Red Storm, a mul is provided no lawful protection. Neither is the attacker rendered assistance.
13. Negative account notes will be given to runaway slaves who do not have a pertinent, well role-played reason IC to do so. Logs of those events must be provided, as well. In the event of un-IC action, Karma may be reduced, negating possible slave roles for some time.




The wording I use is very precise. It should read precisely how I see it, without room for reading between the lines. Some of the rules apply to all slaves. ALL of the rules apply to muls. Muls are the only race who are always slaves. Therefore, some of the rules are geared towards them ICly.

Disclaimer: With the exception of rule #12, nothing at all changes for players who wish to play free, escaped muls.

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

I've been further thinking about how to manage these slave roles, for even further ease for staff. I'll be incorporating X-D's thoughts here, as well. The list looks pretty solid. I'm re-posting it in a proposal format, rather than an idea.



Control of Population
1. Limit slaves to mul karma or called for roles. The option to point to 'Allanak (slave)' or 'Tuluk (slave)', in HoK, appears to players with mul karma or those set up see it.
2. Slaves beginning play in Allanak or Tuluk are given no coin. A shirt, pants, and area-appropriate collar are the only equipment provided.
3. Slaves beginning play in Allanak or Tuluk are spawned in the slave pens of Borsail or Winrothol, respectively.
4. Water and food, per clan cooks, are available in the pen. Other accommodations are also provided, ie: cots, sparring weapons, etc.

Purchasing Slaves
5. Via automated merchant, PCs of Noble rank in their clan are able to outright purchase slaves available in the pen for a unfair fee, which is calculated by the age, guild, and race of the slave.
6. If a PC noble of the local slaving House can be found, better prices can be had. This is also the only way for a GMH purchaser to obtain a slave.

Player Freedoms and Restrictions
7. Slaves are allowed in the city, unescorted, both for social purposes and for errands, provided their masters do not have them occupied.
8. It is an uncoded crime for muls to bear a weapon, or to wear anything other than cloth, unless an owner is with them.
9. It is an uncoded crime for slaves to not have ownership collars fully displayed.
10. Soldiers automatically stop muls from leaving the city, via the normal guard skill.
11. Revise IC social mores within Tor, Borsail, Lyskae, Winrothol, and the GMHs to accommodate muls.
12. In any city that is not their coded hometown, other than Red Storm, a mul is provided no lawful protection. Neither is the attacker rendered assistance.
13. Negative account notes will be given to runaway slaves who do not have a pertinent, well role-played reason IC to do so. Logs of those events must be provided, as well. In the event of un-IC action, Karma may be reduced, negating possible slave roles for some time.




The wording I use is very precise. It should read precisely how I see it, without room for reading between the lines. Some of the rules apply to all slaves. ALL of the rules apply to muls. Muls are the only race who are always slaves. Therefore, some of the rules are geared towards them ICly.

Disclaimer: With the exception of rule #12, nothing at all changes for players who wish to play free, escaped muls.

[Lizzie]

I fully support 7DV's proposal.

[Cutthroat]

I would rather see PC nobles from the slaving Houses handle all slave sales, and for the process not to be automated at all for anyone. It seems like that would provide more interaction between the seller and the slave, and the seller and the buyer. That way, the spawn-in-pen system can be disabled when the area is relatively inactive (and thus no one would be interested in buying slaves), and it can be opened to allow sellers to tote around slaves and perhaps auction them off. If the system depends too heavily on automated purchases, slaves are going to be stuck in there for a while. Otherwise, I like the ideas you have, 7DV.

[Marshmellow]

Cutthroat, I don't think you understand the purpose of the suggestion... because slaves aren't allowed because there is too little automation.  It takes staff time invested to set up a slave, and the time invested isn't worth the returns.  So, do we increase the return (can't do it, if you ask me) or do we reduce staff time invested?  They're proposing reducing staff time invested by automating the setup.

[Is Friday]

I can see why staff wouldn't wanna keep apped slaves. I dunno why they'd wanna nix ICly enslaved PCs. Those are the best. It's practically 0 upkeep for staff that way too, isn't it?

[Cutthroat]

Cutthroat, I don't think you understand the purpose of the suggestion... because slaves aren't allowed because there is too little automation.  It takes staff time invested to set up a slave, and the time invested isn't worth the returns.  So, do we increase the return (can't do it, if you ask me) or do we reduce staff time invested?  They're proposing reducing staff time invested by automating the setup.

I think I do understand it. The question that came to my mind at first was, "why let PC nobles purchase slaves automatically while GMH family merchants wouldn't be able to?" Even if this is balanced out by letting the automated purchase happen at an unfair rate, why not just make sales require that nobles and templars find a PC seller, too?

Ideally the setup would still be automated. The slave automatically gets put into the slave pen, automatically gets food and water, automatically gets sparring weapons to keep busy... what is the difference if that slave has to then wait for someone to auto-purchase him or her or if the slave has to wait for a PC slaver to sell him or her? The only actual problem is if there are consistently no Borsail/Winrothol PCs to handle the sale, in which case one would wonder why that would be since both of those Houses are open.

[Barzalene]

I liked all of XD's and 7's suggestions except for starting in a pen and waiting for a buyer. I may not be the norm, but I think after hour two I'd be thinking, 'Well, I can watch tv without a mud client." Some other ideas might be some limited mobility though the city, perhaps in shackles. Or the option to start with a house that has an active membership and might have asked previously for a slave.

[Twilight]

My random thoughts on slaves:

• I think slaves should be allowed, but only for sponsored roles.  These roles should come about via player plotline or request (i.e. a noble asks for a supporting slave role in their application).  Or staff plotline, obviously.
• Very few slaves should be combat slaves, and restricted to a fairly small number of potential owners.
• Most slaves should be mid- to senior- level slaves with influence in the House they come from.  Aide, advisor, spy, skilled craters, etc.
• No slaves should be low level, unimportant, menial labor types.
• PC Slaves should be a possible reward for getting to a more senior role in certain positions (noble, templar, GMH Family).  Again, with combat slaves being very rare.