Arabeti half-elves?

[Drayab]

I must be crazy, right?

Well, I was playing around with character concepts. I was considering the idea of a half-elf with some relation to tribals. I was reading the tribal documentation, and I came across this gem:

Because of the amorous tendencies of their women (and men) knowing the father of a child is not often as easy as it sounds. A pure blood Arabeti would be able to trace their lineage back through their mother's side of the family for several generations at the least. Regardless of who the father is, an Arabeti is considered pure blood if they can trace this maternal lineage. A child born to an Arabeti father but not an Arabeti mother is akin to a half breed.

One way to interpret this is that a half-elf with a Arabeti mother would still be 'pure blood' Arabeti! This is not what I was expecting. I suspect it's not what was intended. Still, I don't think I'm taking anything out of context. You can read for yourself here: http://www.armageddon.org/ic/arabet.html

Half-elves are supposed to be shunned according to half-elf documentation, but consider the case of a half elf baby that looks sufficiently human. It sounds like nobody would blink an eye if the father couldn't be identified, and the mother could easily keep it a secret. But then, what about the case where the baby is definitely mixed blood? What happens to the baby? What about the mother?

[Fredd]

Half breeds, if I remember, are not considered true members of the tribe. But you would get to say that you are related to the tribe.

[jriley]

I must be crazy, right?

Well, I was playing around with character concepts. I was considering the idea of a half-elf with some relation to tribals. I was reading the tribal documentation, and I came across this gem:

Nice find, man!  And interesting theory.

[Talia]

"Akin to a half-breed" does not mean "both half-breeds and half-Arabeti with no matrilineal inheritance are totally OK in this tribe." It means that a half-Arabeti child with only patrilineal descent is not as good as a half-Arabeti child with matrilineal descent; they are the lowest of the low in Arabeti society, if they're even there at all. They're still better than a half-elf in most likely everyone's eyes, because they're fully human.

It's important to remember that the point of the legendary Arabeti amorousness is to make (valid, matrilineal) babies for the tribe so as to assure its continuation. Arabeti aren't slutty just to be slutty; it's part of their culture for a specific purpose.

While it's conceivable that there may be V/NPC or PC half-elves running around in the Known who are somehow part Arabeti, they're not going to be a recognized part of the tribe; they're still half-elves.

In short, anyone apping to play an Arabeti half-elf within the coded Arabeti tribe shouldn't be surprised to get rejected. It's simply not a concept that is line with the documentation.

All that said, this isn't official staff opinion, it's just my opinion as a member of the Tribals and Indies team...well, unless an Admin+ comes along and says it is official

[Fredd]

"Akin to a half-breed" does not mean "both half-breeds and half-Arabeti with no matrilineal inheritance are totally OK in this tribe." It means that a half-Arabeti child with only patrilineal descent is not as good as a half-Arabeti child with matrilineal descent; they are the lowest of the low in Arabeti society, if they're even there at all. They're still better than a half-elf in most likely everyone's eyes, because they're fully human.

It's important to remember that the point of the legendary Arabeti amorousness is to make (valid, matrilineal) babies for the tribe so as to assure its continuation. Arabeti aren't slutty just to be slutty; it's part of their culture for a specific purpose.

While it's conceivable that there may be V/NPC or PC half-elves running around in the Known who are somehow part Arabeti, they're not going to be a recognized part of the tribe; they're still half-elves.

In short, anyone apping to play an Arabeti half-elf within the coded Arabeti tribe shouldn't be surprised to get rejected. It's simply not a concept that is line with the documentation.

All that said, this isn't official staff opinion, it's just my opinion as a member of the Tribals and Indies team...well, unless an Admin+ comes along and says it is official

I am 75% something just like this is mentioned in a Doc somewhere... I think in the Benjari one.

[Drayab]

"Akin to a half-breed" does not mean "both half-breeds and half-Arabeti with no matrilineal inheritance are totally OK in this tribe." It means that a half-Arabeti child with only patrilineal descent is not as good as a half-Arabeti child with matrilineal descent; they are the lowest of the low in Arabeti society, if they're even there at all. They're still better than a half-elf in most likely everyone's eyes, because they're fully human.

Actually, I read 'Akin to a half-breed' as meaning that a half-Arabeti child with only patrilineal descent is shunned from the tribe in the same way that half elves are shunned from human/elven society elsewhere in the world. In other words, the documentation is using a well known example (ie - the treatment of breeds) to illustrate just how outside the tribe you are if you don't have that connection through your mother.

Just to reiterate, the crux of my (probably bastardized) interpretation is this bit:

Regardless of who the father is, an Arabeti is considered pure blood if they can trace this maternal lineage.

I would argue that if half elves are excluded, it ought to read as: "So long as the baby is fully human, an Arabeti is considered pure blood if they can trace this maternal lineage."

Oh, I did have a look at the Benjari documentation. However, I don't think this is a good counterargument because,

#1 - It is a different tribe.

#2 - They plainly care who the father is. If you read the paragraph about the importance of Benjari blood purity, you can see that they want to know who the father is so that they can decide how to treat the child. Conversely, the Arabet documentation says that if the baby came out of an Arabeti woman, that's good enough!

[jstorrie]

I think it would be cooler, really, if all that mattered was who the mom was. Bring on the Arabeti muls and half-gith!

[jstorrie]

Also, quarterlings.

[Drayab]

Yes, it is a pretty cool thought! Though, after mulling it over (hah), I think it is a bit of a stretch to think that the Arabeti would be willing to turn a blind eye to an obviously not fully human baby. Such racism is common elsewhere in the world, and there's nothing in the Arabeti documentation to say that they are necessarily more accepting of non-humans.

Then to answer my own questions, I'd say that a human-looking half elf with an Arabeti mom could get away with it if the mom can keep her mouth shut. Though whether the admins would let you play such a role is an open question because, in a way, it is against the spirit of playing a half elf in the first place.

As for non-human looking half elves that still have a Arabeti mother, I would expect some kind of disgust from at least the more racist elements in the tribe. How strong the reaction would be is not clear from just looking at the documentation, but I think a reasonable guess would be something like 'disposing' of the baby or expelling the mother if she refuses. Then again, the documentation says this:

The need for fertility in mated couples is of dire importance given the mobile nature of the Arabeti and the fact that they have no set grounds but a range of land that they move across regularly. This also explains why young Arabeti women are known to be rather free with their affections, it not only brings new blood into the tribe and keeps them strong but it also keeps the numbers up in the tribe as a whole.

Which plainly says that the need for fertility is of dire importance. Then, which do the Arabeti value more? Their human only blood purity, or the sheer number of people born to the tribe? I don't think the answer is obvious here.

Taking the stance against tainted blood within the tribe, I think the most interesting part of the documentation then becomes this bit:

A child born to an Arabeti father but not an Arabeti mother is akin to a half breed.

This is actually a very severe stance against humans that simply miss the motherly connection. I mean, surely they like your common, everyday human better than a half elf, right? So, this is saying that if you are half related but miss the motherly connection, you are actually worse than if you weren't related at all! You represent something taboo. Makes you wonder why Arabeti men are allowed to be as free with their affections if they are out there making babies that are 'akin to half breeds'.

[FightClub]

Also, quarterlings.

Revival of the grey empire, via the arabet. Hell yes. Knee biters.

[brytta.leofa]

Makes you wonder why Arabeti men are allowed to be as free with their affections if they are out there making babies that are 'akin to half breeds'.

Why would you bring it home?

[Malifaxis]

"Akin to a half-breed" does not mean "both half-breeds and half-Arabeti with no matrilineal inheritance are totally OK in this tribe." It means that a half-Arabeti child with only patrilineal descent is not as good as a half-Arabeti child with matrilineal descent; they are the lowest of the low in Arabeti society, if they're even there at all. They're still better than a half-elf in most likely everyone's eyes, because they're fully human.

It's important to remember that the point of the legendary Arabeti amorousness is to make (valid, matrilineal) babies for the tribe so as to assure its continuation. Arabeti aren't slutty just to be slutty; it's part of their culture for a specific purpose.

While it's conceivable that there may be V/NPC or PC half-elves running around in the Known who are somehow part Arabeti, they're not going to be a recognized part of the tribe; they're still half-elves.

In short, anyone apping to play an Arabeti half-elf within the coded Arabeti tribe shouldn't be surprised to get rejected. It's simply not a concept that is line with the documentation.

All that said, this isn't official staff opinion, it's just my opinion as a member of the Tribals and Indies team...well, unless an Admin+ comes along and says it is official

I am 75% something just like this is mentioned in a Doc somewhere... I think in the Benjari one.

Comparing Arabeti to Benjari is like comparing a penis to the sun.  There's no similarity anywhere.  The Benjari were/are (are they all dead?  I don't know, I know they've got to be close) a very unique faction with a great many reasons for doing all the bizarre shit they did.  They had/have some very radical beliefs which could facilitate this kind of thing happening.  The Arabeti, while also being very unique and diverse, have none of the particular needs or superstitions that the benjari did... do... goddamnit.

[Fredd]

"Akin to a half-breed" does not mean "both half-breeds and half-Arabeti with no matrilineal inheritance are totally OK in this tribe." It means that a half-Arabeti child with only patrilineal descent is not as good as a half-Arabeti child with matrilineal descent; they are the lowest of the low in Arabeti society, if they're even there at all. They're still better than a half-elf in most likely everyone's eyes, because they're fully human.

It's important to remember that the point of the legendary Arabeti amorousness is to make (valid, matrilineal) babies for the tribe so as to assure its continuation. Arabeti aren't slutty just to be slutty; it's part of their culture for a specific purpose.

While it's conceivable that there may be V/NPC or PC half-elves running around in the Known who are somehow part Arabeti, they're not going to be a recognized part of the tribe; they're still half-elves.

In short, anyone apping to play an Arabeti half-elf within the coded Arabeti tribe shouldn't be surprised to get rejected. It's simply not a concept that is line with the documentation.

All that said, this isn't official staff opinion, it's just my opinion as a member of the Tribals and Indies team...well, unless an Admin+ comes along and says it is official

I am 75% something just like this is mentioned in a Doc somewhere... I think in the Benjari one.

Comparing Arabeti to Benjari is like comparing a penis to the sun.  There's no similarity anywhere.  The Benjari were/are (are they all dead?  I don't know, I know they've got to be close) a very unique faction with a great many reasons for doing all the bizarre shit they did.  They had/have some very radical beliefs which could facilitate this kind of thing happening.  The Arabeti, while also being very unique and diverse, have none of the particular needs or superstitions that the benjari did... do... goddamnit.

Unfortunately with the lack of Doc's you have to read around all the tribal docs to get a good snapshot of there culture. I agree, Benjari are not like the Arabet really. But in order to seethe culture as a whole, you need to see all the parts that make up that culture. The nearly extinct Benjari are part of that. (to my knowledge theres still benjari in the world somewhere.... there like bigfoot)

[Drayab]

i][/i] link=topic=39406.msg547678#msg547678 date=1281534233]

Makes you wonder why Arabeti men are allowed to be as free with their affections if they are out there making babies that are 'akin to half breeds'.

Why would you bring it home?

Well, the doc says that the whole point of Arabeti 'free love' is because they want to have the women folk pop out babies to make the tribe bigger. So, if you don't bring it home, it defeats the purpose. Moreover, you can't bring it home because babies without an Arabeti mother are taboo. Arabeti men ought to be going tent to tent, looking for Arabeti women who aren't preggers yet. So yeah, the men can go have fun with non Arabeti women, but they'd be doing it for fun, not for the good of the tribe.  The first sentence in the Arabet documentation:

The Arabeti are a tribal people; the well-being of the tribe as a whole is the overwhelming priority of them all.

Also, why would Arabeti men go have some fun that could likely end up bringing such a taboo being into the world? It is a selfish act at best because the man would be unlikely to accept any role in raising a child that his entire people views akin to a half elf. Either you abandon it, or you deal with having a child that all of your tribe view akin to a half elf. Most likely, he's just having some fun with no care for whether the woman ends up with a taboo baby. It really is just short sighted hedonism at that point. Not that there is anything wrong with hedonism and only looking out for #1 in Zalanthas! But the documentation presents the Arabeti as a community oriented people who have a lot of sex as a cutural adaptation for survival. Namely, in this passage:

The need for fertility in mated couples is of dire importance given the mobile nature of the Arabeti and the fact that they have no set grounds but a range of land that they move across regularly. This also explains why young Arabeti women are known to be rather free with their affections, it not only brings new blood into the tribe and keeps them strong but it also keeps the numbers up in the tribe as a whole.

And yet, the documentation also contains this:

Because of the amorous tendencies of their women (and men) knowing the father of a child is not often as easy as it sounds.

Which could be read as contradicting what I just wrote, however I don't think it necessarily does.

tl;dr - The point is, you want to bring it home.

[Talia]

The point is, you want to bring it home.

There's absolutely nothing in the Arabeti documentation that suggests they do not suffer from the same extreme prejudice against half-elves that the rest of the Known does. Therefore, I conclude that they, too, would see a half-elf as far less than human and an unacceptable, unwanted member of society. Just because the Arabeti sleep around doesn't mean they don't have standards; one of the best Arabeti I've seen so far was all about picking the very best breeding partners.

It seems like you're really arguing hard for something you wish you could play. But convincing the playerbase isn't really the issue...if it's a character concept you want to try out, I suggest you special app for it and let the admins decide whether it's acceptable. If they do accept it, then it really doesn't matter what other players think.

[Marauder Moe]

I don't think that it's the actual existence of an Arabet-sired bastard child that's taboo.  They're not scorned, but rather they're simply not considered Arabet in any way.

What's taboo is having a child in the tribe who may not contain any Arabet blood.  Having an Arabeti mother is the only way to be certain the child does.

[Drayab]

I don't think that it's the actual existence of an Arabet-sired bastard child that's taboo.  They're not scorned, but rather they're simply not considered Arabet in any way.

What's taboo is having a child in the tribe who may not contain any Arabet blood.  Having an Arabeti mother is the only way to be certain the child does.

Hm yes, maybe that is how they've been played in the past? But then what do you think about this,

A child born to an Arabeti father but not an Arabeti mother is akin to a half breed.

I think that this is a pretty strong indictment of Arabeti bastards.

And Talia, I think we are agreement on the point about the Arabeti not liking half elves and the cultural relevance of their breeding habits. Notice where I wrote above,

Though, after mulling it over (hah), I think it is a bit of a stretch to think that the Arabeti would be willing to turn a blind eye to an obviously not fully human baby. Such racism is common elsewhere in the world, and there's nothing in the Arabeti documentation to say that they are necessarily more accepting of non-humans.

In fact, this point I keep making about the phrase 'akin to a half-elf' being an indictment of Arabeti bastards supposes that they don't like half elves and implies that the must care about who they mate with. So please, don't confuse me with somebody who thinks that the Arabet are lovey dovey with non humans and have sex with anything with two legs. Because I'm not.

And I assure you, I don't have an ulterior motive. I don't believe that convincing the playerbase that I should get to play a half elf Arabet in the coded tribe would somehow help me get to play one. I'm not really trying to convince anyone of anything. I'm just putting out my argument in the hope that somebody else might be intersted in having an internet debate about it. I'm really just an academic who got interested in the tribal documentation, so please forgive me if I'm writing too much.

[brytta.leofa]

Most likely, he's just having some fun with no care for whether the woman ends up with a taboo baby.

Yeah, that's what I was trying to say.  Any child birthed by a non-Arabet female is by definition non-Arabet.  Why would the male bring home a non-Arabet child?  Does it make a good slave (if Arabets keep slaves)?

tl;dr - The point is, you want to bring it home.

Nah; you only want to bring home Real People.  Little Arabetlings.

(You may be right, but the average Arm player is never gonna play his male Arabet as a person who doesn't consider gettin' busy with outsiders.  Assuming that, you have to figure that a male who keeps his non-Arabet offspring is doing a weird, outlandish thing.)

[Drayab]

I think that 'you want to bring it home' bit was a poor choice of words. What I really meant is that you want more Arabeti babies because more babies equals stronger tribe.

I guess we pretty much agree, but if i was playing an Arabet, I'd be giving all the men with bastards a hard time about it! The reality is that people rarely have children IG, so it's not really much of a danger. I think people are playing fast and loose with the docs, though.

Heh, actually what I'm getting out of this thread is now I want to make an Arabet so I can browbeat the men who sleep with outsiders. What do you think about that character concept, Talia?

[Talia]

Were I playing an Arabeti PC, I would probably also give any male Arabeti PCs a hard time if they were going around giving away their precious Arabeti seed for free; they should be spending it within the tribe first, right? If they have anything left after that, then OK, fine.

Though, the biological reality of ARM is the same as the real world, in that a male can theoretically cause a pregnancy to happen many times per year, while a female only gets about one try per year. So a female's fertility is more precious...more valuable.

And I assure you, I don't have an ulterior motive. I don't believe that convincing the playerbase that I should get to play a half elf Arabet in the coded tribe would somehow help me get to play one. I'm not really trying to convince anyone of anything. I'm just putting out my argument in the hope that somebody else might be intersted in having an internet debate about it. I'm really just an academic who got interested in the tribal documentation, so please forgive me if I'm writing too much.

I didn't mean to attribute any ulterior motives to you, I am sorry for that impression. It just sounded to me like you might want to play that PC concept, and the players aren't the right ones to judge that...that's all I meant.

I love the tribal documentation in general, and I wish there was much more routine emphasis by Arabeti players on cranking out legitimate babies, or supporting the legitimate babies that others crank out. I have only rarely seen that. Anyone in the Known can have lots of casual sex, but for the tribes and Arabeti especially, it's got a real purpose.

[Talia]

Heh, actually what I'm getting out of this thread is now I want to make an Arabet so I can browbeat the men who sleep with outsiders. What do you think about that character concept, Talia?

I missed this when I was posting...THUMBS UP!

[tortall]

I love the tribal documentation in general, and I wish there was much more routine emphasis by Arabeti players on cranking out legitimate babies, or supporting the legitimate babies that others crank out. I have only rarely seen that. Anyone in the Known can have lots of casual sex, but for the tribes and Arabeti especially, it's got a real purpose.

Problem with that is, they'd end up stuck in the tents ALL the time. With the males likely going off to do something else. Thus the PCs tend to leave the breeding to the vNPCs, as do most PC in general. Playing preggers is just plain not fun at all.

[Delstro]

Benjari or Arabeti women wouldn't willingly have sex with an elf.
So I would assume that any child born to this lovely mix would be killed outright, or shunned indefinately.

[Drayab]

Benjari or Arabeti women wouldn't willingly have sex with an elf.

That's pretty severe. I agree that it would be taboo, like sex with animals, but to go as far as to say it absolutely never happens sounds like what people would ICly say, but in reality any large population is going to have a minority of freaks. Half elves are always born of uncommon circumstances. Besides,

Note:
   If you are new to Armageddon MUD, you should be aware that many half-
elves are the product of rape, but this does not mean that you should
feel obliged to make your character the result of such an act.

It says many not all. I don't think tribals get to be an exception to this.

So I would assume that any child born to this lovely mix would be killed outright, or shunned indefinately.

I agree with this in the case of the half elf that has obvious elven physical characteristics. The really interesting case is what happens when a half elf is born that looks like a human. The Arabet documentation states that it is not uncommon for the father to be an unknown, so it would be easy for a mother to hide the truth.

[Delstro]

Benjari or Arabeti women wouldn't willingly have sex with an elf.

That's pretty severe. I agree that it would be taboo, like sex with animals, but to go as far as to say it absolutely never happens sounds like what people would ICly say, but in reality any large population is going to have a minority of freaks. Half elves are always born of uncommon circumstances. Besides,

Note:
   If you are new to Armageddon MUD, you should be aware that many half-
elves are the product of rape, but this does not mean that you should
feel obliged to make your character the result of such an act.

I said willingly. If you are willingly getting raped, it ain't rape. Not so severe as I think you took it.

[Drayab]

My point was that in Zalanthas there is a minority of humans that would have sex willingly with an elf, and vice versa. To say that it never happens strikes me as dogmatic, and what's more I quoted a help file to show that your position is not supported by the documentation.