Scales / Shop that allows you to weigh items..

[Dar]

Heh. Believe me, I've played elves. Had my hand in creation of some things, A certain delf tribe takes for granted now    

And you're degrading into semantics. My point's made in the posts above.

[Thunkkin]

Rubbing his nose as he stares at his dirt-encrusted hands, the scruffy Byn Trooper says in sirihish,
    "I jus' ain't got th' sense fer it, Sarge."

Giving him a dubious look, the Byn Sergeant says in sirihish,
    "Well, Amos, it's simple.  Ya hold items in both yer hands there and whichever one feels heavier is, well ... heavier."

With a wistful, anxious sigh, the scruffy Byn Trooper says in sirihish,
    "It's jus' so hard, Sarge.  I know how it works an' I try an' try but it jus' ain't no good.  Mebbe, mebbe ya could help wit' it, Sarge."

The Byn Sergeant clears his throat, his shoulders stiffening.

Flicking some dust from his aba, the Byn Sergeant says in sirihish,
     "Oh.  Well.  Hrmhrm.  When it comes right down to it, Amos, I can't tell whether my bracer is heavier than a mek."

Gloomily, the scruffy Byn Trooper says in sirihish,
     "It's a hard life, Sarge.  Looks like I'll have t' spend a month's pay hirin' one o' them Kadians t' walk th' bazaar wit' me an' tell me which piece o' armor is heavier.  There's jus' no way we can do it fer ourselves.  It's beyond our mind's abilities t' tell if somethin's heavy."

Nodding in agreement, the Byn Sergeant says,
     "Best t' know our place in life, Amos.  There's some of us which knows tha' some things are heavier than others and some o' us which don't.  Those which do tend t' be rich since it's a rare an' special skill th' likes of th' Highlord blesses few people.  Those tha' don't are jus' fuckin' half-wits like us, I guess."

====================================

I think having to hire someone to tell you what's heavier than what is lame because I simply can't imagine it happening in any situation, in any culture, in any time period in Earth history.  You need scales to measure the weight of coins and small amounts of powders, etc., but figuring out whether your scrab shell bracers weigh more or less than your spiked duskhorn wristwrap shouldn't require having a special mental gift bestowed on you at birth or even multiple tries over time.  Any person who isn't mentally damaged should be able to do it without even realizing they're doing it.

[Kiara]

I wish I could sig the entire post above.

[Dakota]

Rubbing his nose as he stares at his dirt-encrusted hands, the scruffy Byn Trooper says in sirihish,
    "I jus' ain't got th' sense fer it, Sarge."

Giving him a dubious look, the Byn Sergeant says in sirihish,
    "Well, Amos, it's simple.  Ya hold items in both yer hands there and whichever one feels heavier is, well ... heavier."

With a wistful, anxious sigh, the scruffy Byn Trooper says in sirihish,
    "It's jus' so hard, Sarge.  I know how it works an' I try an' try but it jus' ain't no good.  Mebbe, mebbe ya could help wit' it, Sarge."

The Byn Sergeant clears his throat, his shoulders stiffening.

Flicking some dust from his aba, the Byn Sergeant says in sirihish,
     "Oh.  Well.  Hrmhrm.  When it comes right down to it, Amos, I can't tell whether my bracer is heavier than a mek."

Gloomily, the scruffy Byn Trooper says in sirihish,
     "It's a hard life, Sarge.  Looks like I'll have t' spend a month's pay hirin' one o' them Kadians t' walk th' bazaar wit' me an' tell me which piece o' armor is heavier.  There's jus' no way we can do it fer ourselves.  It's beyond our mind's abilities t' tell if somethin's heavy."

Nodding in agreement, the Byn Sergeant says,
     "Best t' know our place in life, Amos.  There's some of us which knows tha' some things are heavier than others and some o' us which don't.  Those which do tend t' be rich since it's a rare an' special skill th' likes of th' Highlord blesses few people.  Those tha' don't are jus' fuckin' half-wits like us, I guess."

====================================

I think having to hire someone to tell you what's heavier than what is lame because I simply can't imagine it happening in any situation, in any culture, in any time period in Earth history.  You need scales to measure the weight of coins and small amounts of powders, etc., but figuring out whether your scrab shell bracers weigh more or less than your spiked duskhorn wristwrap shouldn't require having a special mental gift bestowed on you at birth or even multiple tries over time.  Any person who isn't mentally damaged should be able to do it without even realizing they're doing it.

this

[Qzzrbl]

We don't need a compare command.

You can already compare the weights of items in your inventory using "value", even if you don't have the skill.

You'll be able to tell which is heavier, at the very least.

[Dar]

You can already do this with value, without having the skill.

New Subguild:Professional shopper.
Professional Shoppers are well skilled when it comes to figuring out the best price, as well as a keen eye for the qualities of products. They're also very pretty, an f-me description automatically generated for them, so silly grizzly, but very shy Bynners wouldn't be afraid to approach with offers for a quick job.



I dont know guys. I had the very same problems as you did. When my chara is pretty bad on strength and he has to ration out every stone. Somehow I always managed to solve that problem either by enticing the aide of my clan to come shopping with me (Oddly, they were only too happy), or having a lover/friend come shopping with me, or getting a GMH junior merchant (As an RF) get into the thick of it. All of it created some kind of interaction. And I did not have to do such things often enough for it to become a nuisance. It was definitely much more interesting then using a coded command.

[jstorrie]

I think this issue where it relates to encumbrance is a bit of a red herring. It's somewhat out-of-character to try to get your PC to precisely 80 stones, or whatever, so that you can wear the most stuff possible without going up an encumbrance category. While your PC does have some concept of being weighed down, he certainly has no idea that there's a specific threshold he crosses at value X which puts him in one category or the other.

What I recommend is just giving yourself a very large margin before the category jump. Your PC has no idea the limit is there and it doesn't make sense to nickel-and-dime how much you're carrying until you're right under the cap. If you're playing an elf with poor strength, well, tough luck.

[Dar]

I think this issue where it relates to encumbrance is a bit of a red herring. It's somewhat out-of-character to try to get your PC to precisely 80 stones, or whatever, so that you can wear the most stuff possible without going up an encumbrance category. While your PC does have some concept of being weighed down, he certainly has no idea that there's a specific threshold he crosses at value X which puts him in one category or the other.

What I recommend is just giving yourself a very large margin before the category jump. Your PC has no idea the limit is there and it doesn't make sense to nickel-and-dime how much you're carrying until you're right under the cap. If you're playing an elf with poor strength, well, tough luck.

I dont know about that. There is a reason why most professional gear is specifically weighted, with an entire industry that exists with containers and clothing designed for weight management and so on. I would think someone going out into the wild, someone for whom carrying extra crap can mean life or death, would take a rather critical approach to the stuff he's dragging around.

[Qzzrbl]

I think this issue where it relates to encumbrance is a bit of a red herring. It's somewhat out-of-character to try to get your PC to precisely 80 stones, or whatever, so that you can wear the most stuff possible without going up an encumbrance category. While your PC does have some concept of being weighed down, he certainly has no idea that there's a specific threshold he crosses at value X which puts him in one category or the other.

What I recommend is just giving yourself a very large margin before the category jump. Your PC has no idea the limit is there and it doesn't make sense to nickel-and-dime how much you're carrying until you're right under the cap. If you're playing an elf with poor strength, well, tough luck.

It's an issue with even low strength humans, even dwarves.

With some innocent-looking bits of gear, even some weapons weighing upwards of 40-50+ stones when compared to -much- lighter pieces that look to be made from very similar materials.

It becomes a problem.

And it really blows to have to be able to know the weights of most armor after a couple of years of playing the game so you don't accidentally over-encumber your character when you buy stuff.

'Cause blowing 500 or so 'sids on a piece of armor that brings you from "easily manageable" to "heavy, but manageable" -really- sucks.

[Synthesis]

Anyone with the value skill can see how much an item weighs before buying it.

You don't have the value skill? TOUGH FUCKING LUCK BRO.

The dude who picked the subclass that has value, or that merchant? Yeah, they sacrificed sets of skills that are infinitely more useful than that stupid value skill you folks keep complaining about.

RE: the little Byn example.  It's cute, sure.  But why can't a merchant learn how to parry? Or how to use a sword? How fucking hard is it, really?  Not hard.  They should be able to learn, but they can't, short of submitting a request to get skills added, which has a probability of success approaching nil.

This is a class-based system.  Not knowing exactly how much your shit weighs is one of the penalties you incur for picking a class and subclass without the value skill.  It makes JUST as much sense as any other class's lack of ability in any other skill...which admittedly is not much, but that's the way the game is, and it's not going to be changed...not even in 2.Arm.

[Kiara]

I think this issue where it relates to encumbrance is a bit of a red herring. It's somewhat out-of-character to try to get your PC to precisely 80 stones, or whatever, so that you can wear the most stuff possible without going up an encumbrance category. While your PC does have some concept of being weighed down, he certainly has no idea that there's a specific threshold he crosses at value X which puts him in one category or the other.

It's called optimizing. If you can do it in real life without being called a cheat, I think it's fair game in the MUD as well.

What I recommend is just giving yourself a very large margin before the category jump.

Not applicable in regards to elves.

[Kiara]

You don't have the value skill? TOUGH FUCKING LUCK BRO.

Oh hey look, it's another take on "suck it up". 

RE: the little Byn example.  It's cute, sure.  But why can't a merchant learn how to parry? Or how to use a sword? How fucking hard is it, really?  Not hard.  They should be able to learn, but they can't, short of submitting a request to get skills added, which has a probability of success approaching nil.

Learning how to properly engage someone in combat is infinitely more times harder than putting an item in your hand and gauging (to within a few stones) how much it weighs. If you disagree, you are arguing merely for the sake of arguing.

You cannot compare the two.

[Qzzrbl]

Anyone with the value skill can see how much an item weighs before buying it.

You don't have the value skill? TOUGH FUCKING LUCK BRO.

The dude who picked the subclass that has value, or that merchant? Yeah, they sacrificed sets of skills that are infinitely more useful than that stupid value skill you folks keep complaining about.

RE: the little Byn example.  It's cute, sure.  But why can't a merchant learn how to parry? Or how to use a sword? How fucking hard is it, really?  Not hard.  They should be able to learn, but they can't, short of submitting a request to get skills added, which has a probability of success approaching nil.

This is a class-based system.  Not knowing exactly how much your shit weighs is one of the penalties you incur for picking a class and subclass without the value skill.  It makes JUST as much sense as any other class's lack of ability in any other skill...which admittedly is not much, but that's the way the game is, and it's not going to be changed...not even in 2.Arm.

If you don't have the value skill, here's what you can do:

You can get an general estimate of how much an item weighs.

You can get a -very- rough, usually a good deal off, estimate as to how much an item costs.

You can get a general estimate of how much containers can hold.

You can get a general estimate of how much containers hold before buying it from a merchant.
__________________________________

Why is it I can get an estimate of how much a container can hold before buying it from a merchant?

Why doesn't -that- require the skill?

Why doesn't guessing an item's value without the skill not need the skill?

Why don't I need the skill to guess an item's weight is after buying it?

Guessing how much something can contain (a matter of stones), isn't all that far off from approximating something's weight.

The fact that we can't do so, is an inconsistency.

Kinda like how when poisoned arrows/knives used to not poison their targets.

That was an inconsistency.... Alot of people would have been pissed if Staff said, "Tough luck, nublet, just get in there and stab 'em like a man."

[Synthesis]

Well fuck it then, let's just get rid of the value skill altogether, if it's so easy a caveman can do it.

[Qzzrbl]

Well fuck it then, let's just get rid of the value skill altogether, if it's so easy a caveman can do it.

I'm sure you know well that the value skill covers much more than just an item's weight.

Approximating weight is so easy a caveman can do it.... 'Cause I'm pretty positive cavemen even did it.

But accurately figuring where something's from/what it might be used for/how much it's worth/who made it/etc./etc./etc./, are the things I'd bet the value was even made a skill for to begin with.

[Salt Merchant]

Anyone with the value skill can see how much an item weighs before buying it.
This is a class-based system.  Not knowing exactly how much your shit weighs is one of the penalties you incur for picking a class and subclass without the value skill.  It makes JUST as much sense as any other class's lack of ability in any other skill...which admittedly is not much, but that's the way the game is, and it's not going to be changed...not even in 2.Arm.

What doesn't make sense is having to buy a bone hauberk and a bone breastplate to realize that the breastplate weighs over twice what the hauberk does.

Some things should just be obvious.

Or do you want to make boot-lace-tying an elusive skill too that can only be performed by the boot-lace-tying guild/subguild, to create guild differentiation and dependence? So that nobody can put on a pair of boots without this skill or the assistance of someone who has it?

[jstorrie]

Oh, please. Now you're putting words in our mouths.

I'm sure it would be fine if tailors got boot-lacing too.

[Qzzrbl]

Oh, please. Now you're putting words in our mouths.

I'm sure it would be fine if tailors got boot-lacing too.

The first half of his post is meaningful, at least. -shrug-

[Case]

What I recommend is just giving yourself a very large margin before the category jump.

Not applicable in regards to elves.

As much as I agree that a PC's ability to gauge weights should be better, saying that this is not applicable to elves is ridiculous. I've had elves in the worst scenario for this kind of thing and didn't find it difficult at all to balance anything. Anecdotal, sure, but if you don't actually take the time to experiment, you won't be able to realise this.

Actual content: the ability to determine differences in weights is a power relationship. The best gaugers will be able to determine minute weight differences between light objects. The heavier the object, the more difficult this becomes to do accurately. Shouldn't be too tough to code either, since it's a mathetical relationship. Even so, not being able to do things 'perfectly' or in maximal ways without outside help is appealing to some players, reality or not.

[Kiara]

I'm not saying it's impossible to balance.

My point is that the margin between easily manageable and manageable is marginal at best for an elf, therefore jstorrie's proposition is not applicable. For elves, not other playable races.

I didn't explain myself clearly enough, sorry.

[Anaiah]

It's gonna have a little 'edited' message on the first post.

I had to go in and fix the title of the thread, it was eating me alive.

Please continue.

[Cutthroat]

People w/o the value skill get two inaccurate estimates when they use it: an inaccurate estimate of the value of the item in coins and an inaccurate estimate of the weight of the item in stones.

It makes absolutely no sense that these same estimates aren't viewable by everyone in shops as well. Okay, it only makes sense if all the shopkeepers in the game do not let you touch the stuff you're buying and it's all behind the counter. We already get so much information that would likely involve touching, to some extent, that leaving weight out of the picture just seems really unlikely.

People with the value skill should get more accurate estimates of these, plus the other nifty information they get.

This in no way threatens the usefulness of people with the value skill. It just gives those without the value skill the ability to make their crappy estimates in shops as well as on things in their inventory.

[Salt Merchant]

It was meant as a parallel example to highlight the absurdity of defending the value command as it stands.

In my opinion, value should provide a cost estimate of an item. Assess should provide a physical assessment (weight, how much it could contain, condition, etc.).

[Synthesis]

People w/o the value skill get two inaccurate estimates when they use it: an inaccurate estimate of the value of the item in coins and an inaccurate estimate of the weight of the item in stones.

It makes absolutely no sense that these same estimates aren't viewable by everyone in shops as well. Okay, it only makes sense if all the shopkeepers in the game do not let you touch the stuff you're buying and it's all behind the counter. We already get so much information that would likely involve touching, to some extent, that leaving weight out of the picture just seems really unlikely.

People with the value skill should get more accurate estimates of these, plus the other nifty information they get.

This in no way threatens the usefulness of people with the value skill. It just gives those without the value skill the ability to make their crappy estimates in shops as well as on things in their inventory.

See, now that's an acceptable solution.

[Qzzrbl]

People w/o the value skill get two inaccurate estimates when they use it: an inaccurate estimate of the value of the item in coins and an inaccurate estimate of the weight of the item in stones.

It makes absolutely no sense that these same estimates aren't viewable by everyone in shops as well. Okay, it only makes sense if all the shopkeepers in the game do not let you touch the stuff you're buying and it's all behind the counter. We already get so much information that would likely involve touching, to some extent, that leaving weight out of the picture just seems really unlikely.

People with the value skill should get more accurate estimates of these, plus the other nifty information they get.

This in no way threatens the usefulness of people with the value skill. It just gives those without the value skill the ability to make their crappy estimates in shops as well as on things in their inventory.

See, now that's an acceptable solution.

That's what I've beeen suggesting this entire time. x-X