Spice sifting.

[Qzzrbl]

Okay. Please, for fuck's sake, someone fix it already.

It's ridiculous that the reward for risking blinding sandstorms, beetles, raiders, rogue 'gickers..... Every other hazard out there, is so small.

I suggest something similar to the House Jal salt buyers, where you buy a little salt-sack, and sell spice for at least comparable prices to salt.

Anyone else have any suggestions?

[Kiara]

Everything there sounds IC to me. Minus the sandstorms. It seems like the storms there are bonkers, without hardly ever a day of clear skies.

[FantasyWriter]

>contact kuraci.agent

[Qzzrbl]

Everything there sounds IC to me. Minus the sandstorms. It seems like the storms there are bonkers, without hardly ever a day of clear skies.

Everything I said is in the docs....

Beetles are well-known to live in the southlands, bands of raiders are mentioned in the Red Storm docs-- as are rogue magickers.

[Qzzrbl]

>contact kuraci.agent

If only it were that easy....

You'd think Kurac has operations in Storm where they buy spice from all the spice-hunters that supposedly live there.

[Majikal]

Would be pretty awesome seeing something similar to the salt merchant in storm. The ridiculous danger for so little ic gain is the reason I've played so long and yet never, exception of once with Salarr, sifted spice ig.


A+ idea to me.

[Nyr]

>contact kuraci.agent

If only it were that easy....

You'd think Kurac has operations in Storm where they buy spice from all the spice-hunters that supposedly live there.

It would appear that they do.

[Qzzrbl]

>contact kuraci.agent

If only it were that easy....

You'd think Kurac has operations in Storm where they buy spice from all the spice-hunters that supposedly live there.

It would appear that they do.

Think maybe Kurac could possibly.... Not stiff them so damn hard? :<

[roughneck]

sifting spice isn't lucrative but if you're a dirty outcast criminal or escaped slave you'll do whatever it takes just to eat

plus you can use it to trade and cut deals with other pcs with a bit of leg work

I do agree that there should be an NPC who will buy an unlimited amount of spice, even if only for a paltry sum

[Qzzrbl]

sifting spice isn't lucrative but if you're a dirty outcast criminal or escaped slave you'll do whatever it takes just to eat

plus you can use it to trade and cut deals with other pcs with a bit of leg work

I do agree that there should be an NPC who will buy an unlimited amount of spice, even if only for a paltry sum

I could understand it not being lucrative, but depending on what part of the Known you're in, spice can be sold cheaply for upwards of 1000% (if I did my maths right) of what they buy it for....

[FantasyWriter]

I could understand it not being lucrative, but depending on what part of the Known you're in, spice can be sold cheaply for upwards of 1000% (if I did my maths right) of what they buy it for....

IF you can find a buyer.

[Jdr]

In this world? There's ALWAYS a buyer.

[Nyr]

I could understand it not being lucrative, but depending on what part of the Known you're in, spice can be sold cheaply for upwards of 1000% (if I did my maths right) of what they buy it for....

It does pay more to be a smuggler or seller of spice than to be a sifter or user of spice--just like it pays more to be a seller of baked goods rather than the one that harvests wheat, or the seller of clothing rather than the one that picks the cotton.  I understand that you do not feel that the automated system in Red Storm pays enough, but the point you make with that post actually seems to reinforce the system the way it is presently.

[Qzzrbl]

I'd just like to see an avenue for a lower risk:reward ratio involved with sifting.

Because as it stands, PC spice hunters have two options:

A) Risk the harsh wilds and sandstorms and potential raiders or magickers/ starve.

B) Risk the harsh wilds and sandstorms and potential raiders or magickers, AND face the potential wrath of the templarate and guards, and the usual instagank that comes along with that/ live like a king for a few IG days.

[Nyr]

To be fair, those are not the only two options; there are other avenues for independents, particularly even spice grebbers that solely wish to make ends meet off of sifting spice.  Spice grebbers do not have to be rich mofos, nor should they be.  Spice grebbers, cotton pickers, clay diggers, and poopsmiths are not meant to be high-class institutions that net a lot of income.  If you occupy any of the higher levels of any of the supply chains mentioned above (smuggling/selling/organizing, whether it be spice, cotton/clothes, ceramics, and mounts), you will make more 'sid and also gain more risk as a result (particularly if you are an independent).

A valid point to make is that salt miners can get more for their trouble, due to the dangerous environment they go through--and that spice sifting is equally dangerous if not more dangerous.  Reviewing the process so that it is more in line with other automated systems (even if only adjusted very slightly) probably isn't a bad idea.

[Qzzrbl]

Reviewing the process so that it is more in line with other automated systems (even if only adjusted very slightly) probably isn't a bad idea.

That is all I ask, thank you.

[FantasyWriter]

A valid point to make is that salt miners can get more for their trouble, due to the dangerous environment they go through--and that spice sifting is equally dangerous if not more dangerous. 

A higher quantity of or less reclusive mekillots would even things out a bit.

[Fredd]

I've seen plenty of people make good money spice sifting... Can't say how, It's to IC.

[janeshephard]

I think the problem is Red Storm, a town known for spice grebbers, has richer folk doing a certain other profession where it's automated and very easy. The system in place in Red Storm favors one profession over spice grebbing which appears to be wrong to me.

[Majikal]

I think the problem is Red Storm, a town known for spice grebbers, has richer folk doing a certain other profession where it's automated and very easy. The system in place in Red Storm favors one profession over spice grebbing which appears to be wrong to me.

[Akoto]

A valid point to make is that salt miners can get more for their trouble, due to the dangerous environment they go through--and that spice sifting is equally dangerous if not more dangerous.  Reviewing the process so that it is more in line with other automated systems (even if only adjusted very slightly) probably isn't a bad idea.

I would wholeheartedly support such a review. As it stands, I would probably come back from a reasonable (non-twinky) session of spice sifting with less than 100 coins in proft. On a good day. By comparison, I can salt for a few IC days and afford an apartment/food/water in Nak with far less risk. That's not even with full bags.

I'm not saying that salting should be nerfed. Rather, I think it would be beneficial for sifting to be lifted up a bit, to generate better pay. It'd be good for existing miners, and it may even attract new characters to the village, as surviving - not thriving - there would be more feasible.

[jriley]

I would wholeheartedly support such a review. As it stands, I would probably come back from a reasonable (non-twinky) session of spice sifting with less than 100 coins in proft. On a good day. By comparison, I can salt for a few IC days and afford an apartment/food/water in Nak with far less risk. That's not even with full bags.

I'm not saying that salting should be nerfed. Rather, I think it would be beneficial for sifting to be lifted up a bit, to generate better pay. It'd be good for existing miners, and it may even attract new characters to the village, as surviving - not thriving - there would be more feasible.

+1

[Lizzie]

Rather than raise the value of the spice (which would in turn raise the cost of refined spice, which would piss off Kurac customers, which would piss off Kurac, and is therefore probably not a good idea)..

I'd like to see more randomized variety of deposit locations, with fewer quantity per deposit, and the NPC buying more than the standard 5 each.

So that way, you won't end up with a spice sifter spending a game hour going to "the usual" spot..finding that someone else has already gotten there..and the person who already got there, was only able to sell 5 each, and still has 30 more he needs to unload..and there's no one available to buy it..and in the meantime this first guy has to spend the next game hour going to "the usual other spot" - and finally fills his sifter, and returns, only to discover that the first guy already loaded up the NPC and now he's stuck with 50 grains of spice he can't sell, and his waterskin is empty.

Additionally, I'd like to see more interest by players in a Kurac PC presence in Red Storm. The more interest that Red Storm PCs have in their own personal PC Agent down there, the more likely an Agent is to stick around. And the more active an Agent is, the more interested the other PCs should be in their presence. It should be a symbiotic relationship. In the recent past (during the last RL year), it wasn't. I'd love to see this change.

This would also _probably_ require a bit more IMM support for Red Storm in general and Kurac's Imm presence in Red Storm in particular, at least to kick things off in a way that would really return the RP with active sifters, active agents, a real spice trade, patrols, the whole thing.

[Synthesis]

If you fellas who are bitching so much about it got enterprising and found a way to get it into places where you'd naturally expect the price to be high, you might be able to make a goddamn killing, if you talked to the right sort of folks.

But no, everyone wants NPC ez-mode for everything.

[X-D]

Synth beat me to it.

[Qzzrbl]

If you fellas who are bitching so much about it got enterprising and found a way to get it into places where you'd naturally expect the price to be high, you might be able to make a goddamn killing, if you talked to the right sort of folks.

But no, everyone wants NPC ez-mode for everything.

It's not so much that....

Some of us just want a reason to stick around and play in Red Storm proper, without having to off and becoming Smuggler Deluxe and risk facing even -more- potential consequences (added to the ones already there) that usually end with the Mantis Head.

As it is now, whether or not your character eats is based on luck....

Just imagine if the -only- way to make coin as an independent that didn't involve <redacted> subguild in Allanak was to mine obsidian. Except the mined obsidian sold for crazy low prices, and you weren't able to sell any at all if some other PC went behind you and filled the store's stock.

Wouldn't be a very attractive place to play at all.

[janeshephard]

If you fellas who are bitching so much about it got enterprising and found a way to get it into places where you'd naturally expect the price to be high, you might be able to make a goddamn killing, if you talked to the right sort of folks.

But no, everyone wants NPC ez-mode for everything.

Why do you always seem to think players are lazy and stupid? Does it make you feel better about yourself?

Yes, there are PC spice buyers. I've had at least two characters sell this way. It never works out well for anyone involved. It's extremely boring to do after the first time you sell a haul of spice because someone has to count it, give you the coins, and repeat the same RP over and over for many other spice sellers. It's boring after the first time.

You can greb for obscene amounts of salt and sell it in 'Nak but, spice, a lucrative trade doesn't get the same treatment. It's wrong. Plain and simple.

Here's a simple fix. House Kurac, the spice GMH, has its agents buy spice from players, after a few deals recruit them into Kurac in the role of "Spice Sifter." This role lets you sell spice to an NPC in Luir's/Red Storm. You get the best of both worlds like this and it's not "ez mode."

[Synthesis]

The problem is:  if you destroy the incentive for people to bring spice out of Red Storm (by implementing an NPC who buys it at higher prices), people will never risk bringing it out of Red Storm.  This has the tendency to screw potential buyers in Allanak just as much as the current situation screws potential sifters in Red Storm.

Obsidian mining faces the same problem.  Do you know how goddamn difficult it is to find newbie PCs who will sell you obsidian?  It's damn near impossible to get the mined chunks, because EVERYONE sells to the NPC first, because it's so convenient and the payoff is decent enough.

Salting is just fucking retarded, so let's not compare anything to that, mmmkay?

[X-D]

Man, I must be ill, again, agreeing with Synth.

Personally, I think the payoff for obsidian and glass is far too high, specialy obsidian. And though salting does carry a tiny bit more danger then the other two methods spoken of in this thread, that threat is pretty much only from PCs and so, well worth the risk considering the payoff.

I'd love if salting paid a flat rate on a full bag, 50 coins or less and the bag must be 95% full.

Oh, and yes, trying to buy obsidian from other PCs has become a basicly pointless venture...sadly.

[spawnloser]

I am opposed to raising the prices, as has been said.  I would be fine if the prices were low but you had an automated way to get rid of everything.  That makes it so that people can sell everything and get enough to survive without having to leave Storm.  Stormers shouldn't HAVE to leave the region to make a living.  It's that simple.  Having it so that they can eek by this way but leaving it so that if they want to make real money, they have to leave, that's fine with me.

[janeshephard]

The problem is:  if you destroy the incentive for people to bring spice out of Red Storm (by implementing an NPC who buys it at higher prices), people will never risk bringing it out of Red Storm.  This has the tendency to screw potential buyers in Allanak just as much as the current situation screws potential sifters in Red Storm.

Who said anything about bringing it out of Red Storm? I was selling this to other PCs inside of Red Storm. I think what ended up happening is the buyers got bored and stored (or maybe even died) but they weren't logging in much to buy. I got the distinct feeling, OOCly, they were bored going through the motions which I honestly can't assign any blame.

[Twilight]

Twilights Ideal Fix:

1.  Set up more spawn points for the deposits.  Basically, randomize it so that they can occur anywhere on solid land in the appropriate zone around Red Storm.

2.  Make all spice types (with appropriate exceptions) be able to be sifted in both grain and pinch sizes.  Adjust this ratio to achieve correct amount of coins for spice grebbers desired.  This would have the side effect of increasing number of items that can be sold at Kurac, I think, as if I remember correctly you can't sift pinches for most spice types (or it's insanely rare).

[chuci]

I vote for adjusting the merchant so that you can sell as many grains and pinches as you can get. The current limit makes no sense for Kurac, as it would want to bring in as much raw spice as possible, to re-sell for a large profit later down the line.

[Praetorian]

My take on this is that the buyer in game right now should buy much larger quantities, but still at fairly low prices.  Thats just good business sense for Kurac because as it is now the limits force their sifters to go find other people to buy, and thats cutting into Kuracs potential profits.  They should want to CONTROL the spice, not encourage people who sift it to find other buyers because Kurac doesn't want to buy it.

Keeping the price low keeps it from being an insanely profitable job, but would allow people to -just- play spice sifters and still make enough sid to buy their food and water.

Another option would be to add an NPC to red storm that converts grains to pinches, pinches to knots, etc etc for a fee.  It makes it easier in terms of transporting (or selling) but allows independent spice sellers to try their hand and supplying spice to buyers but since they are still paying Kurac to condense it Kurac is still getting a 'cut' so to speak.

[Lizzie]

My take on this is that the buyer in game right now should buy much larger quantities, but still at fairly low prices.  Thats just good business sense for Kurac because as it is now the limits force their sifters to go find other people to buy, and thats cutting into Kuracs potential profits.  They should want to CONTROL the spice, not encourage people who sift it to find other buyers because Kurac doesn't want to buy it.

Keeping the price low keeps it from being an insanely profitable job, but would allow people to -just- play spice sifters and still make enough sid to buy their food and water.

Another option would be to add an NPC to red storm that converts grains to pinches, pinches to knots, etc etc for a fee.  It makes it easier in terms of transporting (or selling) but allows independent spice sellers to try their hand and supplying spice to buyers but since they are still paying Kurac to condense it Kurac is still getting a 'cut' so to speak.

I think this is a pretty dangerous path to go down. There's already been difficulty in finding and keeping Kurac PC presence in Red Storm over the years, though there used to be a pretty good, active, regular presence. It's a viscious cycle - but if you do this kind of thing with Kurac in Red Storm, what happens when the PC Kadian's player retires after being awol for a couple months, and it takes another couple months for the replacement to be found, trained, and get to know the customers? How about we just put an NPC in Allanak who can make anything, you bring her whatever cloth you want, or jewels, or bone, or combination, and she'll craft it for you. She'll be a master crafter in all crafts. And then you can also order your master-crafted item once per month. No need for any PCs at all. Can do away with the Kadian hunters, since there's no one to bring raw materials to anymore. Grebbers will have fewer people to sell stuff to, since that PC who was working on the secret project and needed 50 logs, no longer exists.

Once we're done with Kurac and Kadius, we can move right along to Salarr. Let's just do away with having PCs in that clan entirely. Have everything crafted by an NPC.

And then we can pretend that the politics was all virtually RPed when our characters were logged out, so we really don't need nobles anymore. Templars are never necessary - just have an NPC templar who auto-gems all magickers who shows up in Allanak and you should be good to go.

Yes, it's hyperbole, and yes, it's drama-queenish. However, replacing the potential for some awesome PC return to Red Storm with an NPC is where the path to hyperbolic reality begins.

[Qzzrbl]

The problem is:  if you destroy the incentive for people to bring spice out of Red Storm (by implementing an NPC who buys it at higher prices), people will never risk bringing it out of Red Storm.  This has the tendency to screw potential buyers in Allanak just as much as the current situation screws potential sifters in Red Storm.

I want to be a spice hunter, not uber spice smuggler.

I want a way to at the -very- least guarantee that a PC will at least be able to afford water and food, and maybe a few drinks.

I don't want spice sifters who stick to Red Storm to have an avenue to become mega rich.

I just want a way to keep them from succumbing to hunger/thirst code, which is pretty much what will happen if there's a very (typical) low PC population in the area, and the Kurac spice merchant's stocks are full.

It won't screw Allanak out of anything, because there will always be those folks who want to roll in 'sid - those determined souls can run off and be a Zalanthan Han Solo if they want.

[Qzzrbl]

Yes, it's hyperbole, and yes, it's drama-queenish. However, replacing the potential for some awesome PC return to Red Storm with an NPC is where the path to hyperbolic reality begins.

To counter this, just imagine if there were -no- NPC merchants anywhere at all.

And whether or not you made -any- bit of coin whatsoever depended -entirely- on the right PC being on at the right time, and not be overstocked with what you're offering to begin with.

And saying an NPC who buys spice in Storm would kill Kurac's presence in Storm would be like saying NPCs who buy and sell weapons and armor would kill Salarr's presence anywhere..... Which, well....

It doesn't.

[spawnloser]

Don't give us that so-called logic, Lizzie.  Your argument is a slippery slope argument, which is faulty logic in argument and debate.

[Praetorian]

I think this is a pretty dangerous path to go down. There's already been difficulty in finding and keeping Kurac PC presence in Red Storm over the years, though there used to be a pretty good, active, regular presence. It's a viscious cycle - but if you do this kind of thing with Kurac in Red Storm, what happens when the PC Kadian's player retires after being awol for a couple months, and it takes another couple months for the replacement to be found, trained, and get to know the customers? How about we just put an NPC in Allanak who can make anything, you bring her whatever cloth you want, or jewels, or bone, or combination, and she'll craft it for you. She'll be a master crafter in all crafts. And then you can also order your master-crafted item once per month. No need for any PCs at all. Can do away with the Kadian hunters, since there's no one to bring raw materials to anymore. Grebbers will have fewer people to sell stuff to, since that PC who was working on the secret project and needed 50 logs, no longer exists.

Once we're done with Kurac and Kadius, we can move right along to Salarr. Let's just do away with having PCs in that clan entirely. Have everything crafted by an NPC.

And then we can pretend that the politics was all virtually RPed when our characters were logged out, so we really don't need nobles anymore. Templars are never necessary - just have an NPC templar who auto-gems all magickers who shows up in Allanak and you should be good to go.

Yes, it's hyperbole, and yes, it's drama-queenish. However, replacing the potential for some awesome PC return to Red Storm with an NPC is where the path to hyperbolic reality begins.

I would dare say that severely hampering a realistic role in the game (that of a spice hunter around Red Storm) because it can't be treated as much more than a secondary job due to shop keepers filling up and making their goods unsellable) all because Kurac hasn't dedicated a PC for that environment is just as unsavory.  Sure, the spice sifters could smuggle their goods in somewhere else but that makes them -dealers-, not harvesters supplying Kurac needs.  There is an important distinction there that could affect a players envisoned role in the game.  I personally dislike the notion of hampering player subset A, just in the event that someday in the future player subset B shows up to flesh out what in a virtual sense probably takes place consistently.

The spice issue could perhaps be aided by not changing anything regarding shops and shopkeepers but by changing Kurac clan policies instead.  If Kurac presence in a place where their primary drug is acquired from is so low it might be better to ask -why- this is?  Kurac might need an incentive to keep a presence there, or at least travel there with some frequency (perhaps each weekend someone goes down to buy spice and such).  Perhaps they do already - I just don't know.  Perhaps submitting requests/ideas to the Kurac staff would result in actions taking place quicker than debating it in this thread.

I can't honestly help but believe that sifters being unable to sell could solve their problems by wishing up, having the npc buyer animated, ask them who they should get in touch with for selling larger bulk quantities, and that npc letting them know who in Luirs to contact.  Arrange the meetup and the Kurac PCs get their trading done quickly without alot of downtime away from their base of operations and the sifters get their pocket full of sid and the open avenue toward supplying the next shipment.

[janeshephard]

I can't honestly help but believe that sifters being unable to sell could solve their problems by wishing up, having the npc buyer animated, ask them who they should get in touch with for selling larger bulk quantities, and that npc letting them know who in Luirs to contact.  Arrange the meetup and the Kurac PCs get their trading done quickly without alot of downtime away from their base of operations and the sifters get their pocket full of sid and the open avenue toward supplying the next shipment.

You're assuming Kurac agent PCs _want_ to do this IC or OOC. For some reason this does happen sometimes but from what I've seen the players or characters aren't eager to repeat doing it. I suspect it's more OOC than IC. It's a lot of work to count up spice, pay, and then pass it along to the staff. Lots of needless bean counting IMHO. We're all far better off taking the salt code and putting it into an NPC in Red Storm and Luir's.

Just far better all around.

We're doing it for cotton, clay, salt, and 'sid. Why is spice the odd man out?

[Reiloth]

I agree that the cap for spice bought in Red Storm should be infinite.