Getting orders fulfilled by Kadius/Salarr

[Samwise]

I'm not sure about everyone else, but myself, I'm not speaking of the tricked out blue velvet jumpsuit with the rhinestones. I'm talking about regular, every day items. I've been in both the Kadius and Salarr warehouses and seen the types of things there, and it is rather limited. If it's clothing, the Kadius shops are decent, yes.. but that color rotation thing can cause major problems if you have to wait around for a couple rl months to get the color you need. And yes, color is a factor when you work for a House.

I'm talking about having to wait 2-3 RL months for something like a simple pair of pants or a vest. Instead of giving the merchant access to 50 or 60 things, why not much more? Put a few hundred things at their disposal and then give them the freedom to do it. This way you find more people willing to play merchants, and more merchants able to fulfill orders.

I've know players of merchants, and I've known imms. The simple fact remains, from talking to people from both, that when it comes to getting orders that need to be loaded, neither side puts the effort into it that they could. Especially many merchants, who can get by just fine whether they do their jobs or not. So my other suggestion remains, take away the merchant house perks from them. If they spend more time doing their job, they can make fortunes rather easily and would have no need of the house perks.

[Stroker]

As a player for the House Salarr I will go ahead and say (at least in the north) there are merchants out and about and rather frequently I may say .... perhaps you are not looking hard enough, ask around.

[Angela Christine]

So my other suggestion remains, take away the merchant house perks from them. If they spend more time doing their job, they can make fortunes rather easily and would have no need of the house perks.

Um, if a big part of the problem is that there aren't enough House merchant PCs, how will making the job more unpleasant encourage more people to adopt the role?

There is an unpleasant element of OOC work for these roles.  You are stuck between a rock and a hard place.  IC there are PCs with cash to spend and stuff they want.  Then there are your "superiors" who you need to clear everything with, except that you know it isn't really an IC thing because your superiors are really just imm-animated NPCs, and the NPCs reasons for things are really thinly veiled OOC imm preferances.  Some items can be created by PC crafters in the house, but most things can't be, so an imm has to create the item which is inately OOC.
 
I was once in a role (not a merchant, but similar) where I was stuck as the IC interface between PCs and staff, and I hated it.  Hated it.  Some PC would say "Can I have X?" perhaps even throwing in a bribe to persuade me, and all I could say is "I'll have to check with my superiors" which was code for "I'll have to make the request on the clan board or via email, and get back to you when I hear from my clan Imm" because their requests would invariable require some OOC staff intervention to carry out.

Fictional example:  Suppose you asked the Kadian representantive how much a pair of silver parashute pants would cost, and after "checking with their superiors" they quote you a price, say 5000 sid.  It's a bit high, so you spend a few IC months saving up before you make the order.  You go back the Kadian and put down your deposit, giddy that your pants will soon be here.  A few IC weeks later the Kadian returns your deposit with some lame excuse that they are currently out of silver thread, and don't know when more will be available, so they can't take your order.  

What has really happened is that OOC the staff decided there were too many metalic coloured items, so they are phasing out metalic looking items that aren't actually metal.  But suppose that neither the merchant PC nor the customer PC know about the OOC policy change, so they are left scratching their heads.  The customer is angry that they are being jerked around by the merchant, and the merchant left perplexed and unhappy that the "done deal" had been undone for reasons he doesn't understand.  Hated it.

AC

[Carnage]

I don't know, if it really is a problem (I don't know if it is) then I think the imm of that clan needs to go look for some players and start them at a higher level of merchant, (?) instead of having merchants that can't do anything because they are in trainng or some such crap.

I'm not trying to flame you, but please don't make suggestions on things you don't understand. The problem isn't the 'level' of the merchant at all.

[chinwa]

I'm not trying to flame you, but please don't make suggestions on things you don't understand. The problem isn't the 'level' of the merchant at all.

Actually, he is right, in some cases. The merchant houses have different levels amongst the merchant branches, and you will come across cases that a merchant cannot do or sell or get something because they are a base ranked merchant, and it requires the authority of a higher ranked merchant to take care of it (which, lacking a higher ranked PC, means another item that would require immortal attention, thus taking more time).

But again, this is an instance that rarely comes into play.

[Bestatte]

It still has nothing to do with the level of the merchant's rank. It has to do with the newness of the player to that merchant house.

There is a period of adjustment when playing a new merchant, and during that period all flavors of problems come their way.

A lot of it is from the population's relationship with whoever the new merchant is replacing. Past orders that might have been forgotten and the new merchant doesn't even know about. Past hostilities between this or that noble house and the merchant house the new merchant belongs to. Past orders that were promised free of charge by the previous merchant, that the new merchant doesn't know he's not supposed to be charging for. And even further - what a past merchant offers isn't necessarily what the new merchant has to offer. So if Joe offered Sue an ornate choker for 250 'sids because Joe's been sleeping with Sue, why in hell should Amy only take 250 'sids from Sue when she delivers the choker, if she knows it's worth 900?

The headaches go on and on and on, and that's JUST the problems that stem from past merchants' relationships with their customers. THEN you have to deal with a merchant PC whose player might not have ever played a merchant before and is just plain totally new to merchanting, and has to be taught and guided into their new role.

Trust me, it ain't easy.

[Marc]

Couple things no one else mentioned (or I just failed to notice):

The normal stock of a House's wares are the things you can find in their plethora of shops across the Known world.  These are the things the House feels they can sell regular and for a good profit.  They are also the things they can churn out quickly for the masses. These items are what thier crafters are putting their effort towards making.
When you reqest a special or custom order you are asking the House to divert one of its crafters time away from what they know and put it towards a different/new design.  Expensive and time consuming for the House, both in lost labor and, if the crafter hasn't done it before, maybe even lost materials.

Sanvean summed up the ooc concerns pretty well.

Bakha, when he ran Salarr had a very good system for special orders (not custom).  Once a week a merchant would submit a list of items needed and the following saturday they would be loaded up on the quartermaster for the merchant to purchase and then resell.  
It worked well, but was definently limited to what a player knew was available.

An idea:  Ariada (I think) has an under used shop in Allanak with a very cool system.  You can place an order for a certain pair of pants in a certain color of a certain material, you get a vellum ticket and wait while they are made.  The choices are pretty limited and quite plain, but the idea of the shop is very cool.

Why not (and yes this would require a lot of work) put a similar shopkeeper with the different quartermasters to handle these special orders automatically?  If Salarr/Kadius/Kurac has an item the clan imm thinks should be available, but not in the bulk to warrent a space in the regular shop, add it to the shop list for this new shopkeeper.  If a merchant gets an order for that item, they can go and order the item made.  The time this takes can be set to something outrageous like 1000+ hours so it does take a significant amount of RL time to finish, but would also eliminate the need for imm intervention beyond the initial setup.

Ideas?  Feedback?

[Anonymous]

I do think that it stinks when you even work for the house as a guard or something and it still takes an IC year or more to purchase and item that is lying in a warehouse somewhere, you've saved your hard-earned coin for the item and you'll be lucky to get it before some disaster kills your char.
The length of time it takes to get some of these things is ridiculous, I can see the long wait with items custom made or made from really rare materials...but what my char ordered is not made from anything that special and already it's been a few IC weeks since I got the coin and inquired about it. My char was told that there were probably a few of these items lying around in the warehouse...still waiting.

[crymerci]

Why not (and yes this would require a lot of work) put a similar shopkeeper with the different quartermasters to handle these special orders automatically?  If Salarr/Kadius/Kurac has an item the clan imm thinks should be available, but not in the bulk to warrent a space in the regular shop, add it to the shop list for this new shopkeeper.  If a merchant gets an order for that item, they can go and order the item made.  The time this takes can be set to something outrageous like 1000+ hours so it does take a significant amount of RL time to finish, but would also eliminate the need for imm intervention beyond the initial setup.

Ideas?  Feedback?

I'm not sure if I'm understanding this idea...are you talking about regular items made somewhat customizable? For example, perhaps someone wants anakore claw gloves in different colors, or knee-high red boots in both silk and hide.

Or (and this idea intrigues me a lot more) do you mean a bunch of different quartermaster NPCs (like shopkeepers with menus) in the warehouse, carrying all the "regular" inventory stuff which might not be in the current rotation, as well as other common items which are already in the database as "Kadian-made" (or whichever clan).  That way, an abundance of items can be virtually available in the warehouses, without actually clogging saverooms.  

If this is the case, I would personally see it most usable for items which might be just sitting around the warehouse, not for things which would require 1000+ hours of work.  Or perhaps it can include these more difficult items, but say there's only one of them allowed to be sold per RL week, and the next IC "month" the House's workers have made a new one to replace the out of stock item?

With this method, merchant clan imms would only be dealing with true custom orders, or perhaps loading clan-specific items.  And that would definitely save time in the long run.  Also, I'm not sure, but I'd guess that having "shopkeepers" uses up less of ginka's resources than constantly saving the same dusty items in the warehouse.

[Dan]

Anakore gloves are hardly 'regular items' heh. Man, if a SLK heard you say that!

Anyways... I think I get what that person means and I will lay it out for ya.

Set an NPC with a script and have them ask you what type of material you want the weapon made out of. Then they ask what type of weapon, sword, club, mace, axe, dagger, knife, bardiche, halberd etc etc... then they can ask how heavy it would be or something, as in very light, no problem, heavy. Mayby the last would be how much detail to put into it, perhaps, basic, moderate, extensive, and ornate. That would be it. Then, the amount of time it would be to take it would depend on your choices, or mayby just the detail being put into it. If a combination came up where there wasn't a weapon for the coices, the NPC could just say something to the effect that it would take some time to come up with a design like that and they couldn't do it at the moment.

I know there is code already in game for something like this. I myself wouldn't mind being able to pick up a few basic throwing daggers from a merchant like this without having to search the known world for one, since I only know of a couple places that sell them. Im sure they are around and easy to make, but I digress...

What do you all think of something like this. It sounds like a nifty project for an imm that shouldn't take -too- much work, a few weekends of Saturdays mayby. I think it would be worth it though.

[Marc]

Heh, well, you are both partially off.

What I mean is this:

Kadian Merchant Bob goes to his houses warehouse to see about the candy stripped leggings Noble Lady Sally wants.
There he has his quartermaster who is a regular type shopkeeper and has a selection of items the Kadian imm decided to give them that week/month etc.  He types list and sees nothing that fits the bill.
Next to the quartermaster is another shopkeeper who works more along the lines of a tailor.  He types list and sees:

1) a blue silk loincloth
2) a purple stripped, green sandcloth headwrap
3) a dragon-carved obsidian bracelet
4) a pair of tight black silk pants
5) a pair of sable linen sleeves
6) a pair of candy-stripped silk leggings
7) a colorful turban with bells
-whatever# etc etc etc

Bob sees that Kadius DOES have a design for the candy stripped leggings (#6) and places the order with the second kadian shopkeeper.  The shopkeeper gives Bob a ticket and goes off to tell the vnpc crafters of the house to start working on the leggings.
After X amount of time (which again I think should consist of a few RL days at the minimum, hense the 1000+ hours) Bob could "offer ticket", get charged however many sids the leggings cost and get the leggings to resell to Noble Lady Sally.

This would NOT allow custom orders.  It would be limited to the items the clan imm set for the shopkeeper to sell.  If Noble Lord George wanted a pair of silk gloves with long obsidian nails in the fingers and the shopkeeper/quartermaster didn't have it, Merchant Bob would have to submit a custom order just as it is now.

What it WOULD do is cut down the amount of imm intervention needed for House orders that, why not common, are not excedingly rare.

A couple ideas, keeping with the Kadian idea, would be including every item in the shop rotations.  It is the purple load but you had your heart set on that red silk cloak?  Talk to Merchant Bob who can talk to his shopkeeper and have one made.  It might take a few days, but you wouldn't have to wait for the shop cycle to come back around to red and the Kadian imm would not need to be involved.

With Salarr the "fancier" weaponry and armors could be options, letting the merchant order up that set of spiky armor (not talking about spiked bracers or gloves here) or the obsidian studded tandu.  Again, it might take a few days to be completed, representing the crafters putting in the time to actually make it, but an imm would not have to be directly involved, allowing them to focus thier attention on furthering plots and what not.

[creeper386]

Warning: Going off onto lala land on what he thinks would be nifty/useful for this sort of thing.

Okay, first off, each House would need a list of every possible item they use, probably included along with all the other clan files in the mud folders.

Then, a code is implemented with the intention of being put in place in the Merchant House's "warehouses" or crafting area or whichever. This code would work something like a shopkeeper except alot more advanced. It'd be a search type of thing. Could use view with an addition on it to allow more variables, or just use list that would allow variables.

list [generic item type] [specific type of that item type] [keyword] [keyword]

list clothing hat purple fancy

45> A fancy purple hat
59> An obsidian-banded, fancy purple hat
400> A really fancy, purple hat

buy #400

list armor vest studded tregil

list weapon dagger obsidian agate

So on and so forth. Now, I think this would be for the more generic things or the middle of the line stuff. Maybe include a wait period with how expensive a thing is, as cost ussually includes rarity/worth/materials and all that. Probably well never happen, but it'd probably make things alittle more automated, and therefor alittle easier.

Creeper

[Marc]

Being able to list every item available to a house  and then be able to narrow down the list with filters (ie agate, obsidian, silk etc) would be quite a chore.  In otherwords, it would require new code.
However, the code is in place (or very similar code via Ariada's clothshop in Allanak) to just have a generic "list" that might be a few hundred items long that could be purchased and the item then thrown into a tailor-like wait.  You get a ticket for the item and a timer is set.  When that timer has expired, you can offer ticket and get the item.

Pretty simple really.

The real effort there is just setting an npc up to call the assorted obj numbers and arranging the list.

[creeper386]

Hmm... That'd be basically the same thing. Those items in that shop, are still normal items. There are still that fifty of them or how ever many of them are. It could be done that way just the same. Although it'd be just as much work.

And I think making list be able to have variables in order to sort through things would be useful for the whole MUD anyways.

list

1> useful item you don't need
2> useful item you don't need
3> useful item you don't need
...
...
...
500> useless item you don't need
501> useless item you don't need

Somewhere in all that is what you need. Sure things don't get to that extreme... But it would come in handy. And over all wouldn't be THAT hard to be able to search through the keywords in the shopkeepers inventory(shop inventory not inventory inventory). Yes, it would require new code, but making another shop like the one in the Bazaar would take alot of manual labor as well. Specially if you have the list REALLY long. Lots of things require new code all the time. I'm pretty sure this would just need a side addition to the list code and it'd be all done and over with, wouldn't need to grandly revamp things. It'd still take a good amount of manual work to make an NPC or two with all the low level items a House commonly has, but I think that'd be easier then making another shop like the above mentioned.

Creeper

[Angela Christine]

I like Marc's idea.  

It would be a lot of work to set up though.  According to the weekly update there are 16942 objects, I'd guess at least 5000 of them are items that are not sensitive and could be made available by special order or in shop inventories.  Some poor bastard would have to go through all 16942 items, find the non-sensitive items and sort them out into catagories.  Not just Kadius/Kurac/Salarr either.  Each of the big houses would need two or three quatermasters (Tuluk, Allanak and other) and each quartermaster for a given house wouldn't necessarily have exactly the same inventory.  For example, buying "a leaf -carved baobab cabinet" would both cost less money and take less time to deliver in the north than in the south, so the northern quartermaster might deliver it in 1000 hours for 200 sid, while the southern quartermaster would need 3000 hours  and 500 sid, because the materials are not available locally.  Besides  the big three, smaller organizations like the Tan Muark, Harach-Kamud,the Guild and various tribal groups also produce specialty goods, so if you can find  a PC from these groups then that PC should have access to a quartermaster that produces their goods.  Not impossible, but a lot of work.

A similar idea I had, that would also be a lot of work, was a catalog hosted OOCly on the website.  

Each entry would have the item's sdesc, what clan(s) can produce it, and the database item number.  Also helpful, but not essential, would be the main desc, weight, and the container capacity if a container.  
It might also include what items will need to be provided before the imm will create the item, for rare items like silt horror armor or anakore claw gloves the imms might declare that the item can not be created until the house has somehow aquired a silt horror shell or a set of anakore claws.  The existance of anakore claw gloves isn't secret, but they can't be produced without anakore claws and anakore claws are hard to come by, so the house's "virtual" hunters can not supply them.

That way the player of the character who wants the fancy feathered cap (rather than some staffer) can do the work of digging though the "catalog" to find something that fits the bill.  Then when he tracks down an appropriate merchant he can say "I want a fancy feathered cap, in blue, with a purple band."  "ooc Item #BL4309."  Then when the merchant puts in his monthly order he doesn't need a long description of every item, instead he has a nice list of database numbers, so the imm can find and create the items with less effort, if said imm deems it appropriate.  

In a perfect world . . . .

AC

[Bestatte]

Hm. Well I know Diku isn't an Object-Oriented code (at least I think it isn't?)...

But if it supports the use of arrays (and what code initially based off C doesn't?) I wonder if it could do something like this:

Have the objects available be placed in the database, tucked neatly in their own special compartments, or arrays.

Each array would be its own category, with sub-categories within it.

Example:

array 1 = clothing
and within array 1 is
compartment a = head/face/neckwear
compartment b = torso/arms/wrists/shoulders
compartment c = waist/belt/legs/feet

When Kadian merchant looks for the customer's item, the syntax would be something like:

list clothing comp_a
and it would bring up -only- those items that exist within compartment A, and then he can order off that list.
All the other objects Kadius has in the warehouse would exist only virtually until he pulls them up by using LIST, and once he has ordered and received what he wanted all the objects would return back to their virtual status within the database.

I -know- such a thing -can- be coded, since I've worked with a code that does exactly that. I'm just not sure if it would work with Diku or the current incarnation of the Armageddon code.

But basically what this would do is prevent the game from having to store all this "stuff" outside the database and place it instead kinda in the same place characters go when you log them off.

The only time they'd come out of that virtual storage is when you target it with a command, such as "view #7" or "offer 20 #7" or "buy #7". Once it's removed from the list and placed in the merchant's inventory, it is gone from the database and released into the game. But until the Merchant actually gets his hands on it, it remains in either a virtual or semi-virtual state, thus saving tons and tons of data space.

[chinwa]

500> useless item you don't need
501> useless item you don't need

Easily solution. Spread it over more than one NPC. Put the torso items on one pc, the legs on another, the belt/waist on another, the sleeves on another.

I think for the most part items are listed under a certain make, that's why when you submit an item you're asked to put a clan name, if it's from a specific clan, like "Kadian-make" or "Salarr-make". So if that's the case, and the object database is already segmented like that, the clan Imm would only have to go through items of their clan's make to decide what would be put in those NPCs' inventories.

[Anonymous]

I'm playing a merchant trainee at the moment and this is what -I- do when I am approached by someone wanting something.

cut
paste
set in email
wait for someone else

Then, once a -day- (ooc), I send a copy to the clan immortal, the mud and then myself.

Sometimes there is more than one day that goes by and someone doesn't want something. On those days I'm sure my clan immortal breathes a sigh of relief.

After that (sorry to all other merchants who don't do the same) it is up to the -merchant- to act as mediator between the house and the client. I bug my imm every other day for things I've ordered and inform my clients of updates the second I see them.  As a merchant I have no desire to become obsolete by code. That's the entire point of having PC merchants, so that they are used. If your merchant is not taking the initiative to keep you as a client then take your business elsewhere?

You're right, orders take an exhorbitant amount of time to come through and as Sanvean stated, Imms -do- have lives outside Armageddon (the nerve!) and can only do so many thing at once.  Merchants have lives too.

[chinwa]

After that (sorry to all other merchants who don't do the same) it is up to the -merchant- to act as mediator between the house and the client. I bug my imm every other day for things I've ordered and inform my clients of updates the second I see them.  As a merchant I have no desire to become obsolete by code. That's the entire point of having PC merchants, so that they are used. If your merchant is not taking the initiative to keep you as a client then take your business elsewhere?

If only they were all like you

[creeper386]

Most of these ideas wouldn't make a merchant obsolete. It'd make the proccess more automated to take out the Staff's time spent on loading items and such.

See, this way my idea. Make list searchable through the NPC shopkeepers shop list. This would allow a big bonus to the hole MUD over all. And allow easier access to those items when they get pushed OFF the viewable list. Instead of having to type view #367; view #368, so on and so forth.

Then, there can be NPC shopkeepers in the store rooms or what not, for the PC merchants to deal with. When they PC "buy"s something they are giving a ticket, have the wait period dependant on the price of the item. In the south wood is rarer, therefore the price is higher, therefor the wait would be longer. Have even basic items a wait of two or three days OOC*. How this goes. The PC merchant can be told how long the wait is going to be, say in terms of weeks/months or what not. The PC merchant can even hand the ticket over to the person who bought the item. Then if that PC merchant disapears or isn't on, the buyer can go through another PC merchant, or go through a Staff NPC with much less trouble.

This would be done, so that Staff doesn't have to worry about loading up the more basic things. Although I think it can be done with fancier items... I think the really fancy, expensive items would be left off. It'd make it so everything is handled IC(You all I am told know what IC is so I'm not going to reiterate) so that there isn't the concern of someone forgetting something OOCily or an email getting lost for the more basic items and such.

It COULD be done without any code being added, just several NPCs with seperate sections of the inventory, but that'd take more initial work, and wouldn't add anything to the rest of the MUD. All that would be needed was the manual work to sort through the different items. Which as someone pointed out... Most are already clan specific. And then an NPC script to handle handing out the tickets, telling how long it was going to take, and giving out the item when it's done, which could be modified from scripts that are already in the game I'm sure.

Creeper who's done for now.

*The basic wait delay of several days is so that PC crafters wouldn't be considered absolute. Although they wouldn't be relied upon so much untill they get good, and still wouldn't be relied upon too much if there wasn't any coded goods, but when they get better they could still be relied upon for the fancier items, as well as they being able to get out the items faster. Also through RP PC crafters of course couldn't be considered absolute because they'd be no different then the Virtual ones, and I'm sure the Clan Imms wouldn't let a PC role go obsolete.

[crymerci]

Marc, now that you've explained more, I really like your idea.  However, I don't think that a wait is even necessary in most cases.  I think that they probably have several of each "regular" item virtually available in their warehouses.

[Marc]

Very true, Crymerci, but the stock in the warehouse is also constantly being sold and restocked by virtual merchants and virtual crafters.  Maybe the two ruby cloaks in the warehouse are reserved.  By always having a wait it simply represents either A: the time the crafter needs to make the item or B: clearing up the red tape to make sure what is in the warehouse is free to be sold.

More or less, I support a significant delay to eliminate any "instant gratification" ;-)  If Merchant Bob thinks he will have a lot of luck selling a number of candy stripped leggings, have him place an order for them in advance.  Then they are actually there, waiting, and not just virtual.

[Anonymous]

In a world where roleplay is the most important thing, things existing virtually are every bit as important as those that are coded.

I say, if you can afford it, and it isn't something that is custom made or made from hard to obtain materials then there should be a supply and if you have the coin, you shouldn't really have to wait long.

I can understand anakore claw gloves being hard to come by, getting anakore claws being the hard part and all, but things made from leather, bone, obsidian, chitin, or any other common materials you see making up many things in the world every day?
No way!
These houses are supposed to be the major suppliers of such things in all of Zalanthas, they would have a supply and should have no problem selling the things to those with the 'sid who are interested...after all, that's mainly how they make they're coin.

[Naephet]

I'd like to address two points here:

1.  Big list, and big box (more inventory) methods have been tried in the past, and, while they may be done again in the future, they aren't all that great.  For starters, a lack of knowledge of what's available is what seperates a good merchant from a bad one.  The longer a merchant has been around, the more likely he is to be able to handle your orders with ease.  This helps feed a system through which more experienced merchants can be designated to nobles and genuinely important people, while the inexperienced can be sent out to deal with the self-important commoners who most merchant houses really couldn't care less about.

2.  Out of all the potential roles available in the game, merchants work the hardest, next to staff members, because players actually expect results from them.  I have little sympathy for any player that gets annoyed at their ability to serve.  While nobles, commoners, Byn members, and other low-level characters get to just romp around and have care free fun, merchants need to show results.  This means keeping track of orders, following up on them, often writing objects, in-depth correspondance with the staff, etc.  To be perfectly blunt, merchants take so much shit from other players that I'm usually amazed that we manage to keep as many as we do.  If you think the current crop of merchants aren't available enough, or don't do a good enough job of kissing your character's ass, feel free to apply for one, and walk a mile in their shoes.  If you can do a better job than they can, other players will beat a path to your door, and the game will be at your feet.

Naephet