Subguild: Scavenger removal

[janeshephard]

OK.

So the most recent update to the scavenger subguild helpfile clearly states they can forage for food, climb, and search for hidden exits. I'd like to propose climb be moved to a new subguild or simply be left to the acrobat subguild.

Forage food and "search" be given to all players. Here's my reasoning:

It's not impossible to grab ants off the ground, or poke the walls for a secret exit. It shouldn't take any kind of special talent. I can't see why. I'll leave this up to discussion and hopefully staff review.

My hope is starting this thread is not a bad thing.

[Intrepid]

I don't normally add in a response just to agree, but I can see this being a good idea.  It always mystified me that Search was such a rare skill to have.  That said, foraging for food seems like it would at least be possible, if not difficult, for anyone to do.

[Armaddict]

I'm actually...kind of...inclined to agree, but my reluctance comes from these things, which could bear some thought, or immediate dispelling if they're just silly.

1.  The reason I don't think search is an 'easily had' skill is because a lot of hidden exits are the only true defense against others.  If everyone can find them all the time, they become utterly ineffective, and really...not even a barrier at all.  They go from something that you need to get more information on and deal with to something that just makes you use an annoying skill.  So, it's not that I disagree, but I do think search being a bit more rare of a skill actually does fit in with the equilibrium of the game, as is.  (i.e. Giving everyone search will result in some changes having to be made elsewhere, since hidden exits will, in essence, become redundant.)

2.  Same kind of effect with forage food.  Right now, if you are a non-ranger planning on foraging for food, then you are automatically pulled to this subguild as a capability.  This is the subguild that makes it so that non-rangers can have some additional food-gathering ability outside the city.  This is, in actuality, one of the things that makes rangers special, and a coded benefit that shows the IC difference...rangers are generally not 'trained', but 'knowledgeable' in some of the little nuances of the wilderness that make them adapted to being there.  They can pick out spots where digging would be good, for tubers, or which things are safe and not safe.  Giving that ability to everyone is akin to saying that everyone should be able to branch advanced weapon skills that Warriors do.  There can always be logic pointed at saying this, but not everything is just about what's logical and what isn't.  It also has to enhance the gameplay, or the effect of something within the game.  So this one, I'm a lot more hesitant to agree with.

[Spice Spice Baby]

Rather than making those two abilities available to everyone, I'd rather just see search distributed to a few more guilds, perhaps made branchable off of scan or hunt or something.

I'm not too concerned about search making hidden entrances obsolete, because if you've worked with the skill for any length of time, you'll know how tricky it still is to find said entrances. Even if you have the search skill and you've got it at a decent skill level, you still have to know there's something to look for and there's still a chance you'll never find it. (Hoping I kept this vague enough, staff can feel free to edit it if it's too code mechanic-y.)

In regards to foraging for food, I'm less inclined to agree, although I can think of a couple other subguilds that could realistically have it added to their repertoire. I'd rather see food foraging remain in the realm of those with considerable wilderness knowledge, because I think it takes a decent amount of wilderness knowledge to accomplish.

[roughneck]

I'd like to see search show up on a ranger skill list just because the guild that gets search typically doesn't spend too much time in the wilderness.

I'm all for keeping the ability to search for food as a ranger only ability.  Knowing where to find and what to eat that won't poison you is the biggest determining factor into what makes someone a man/woman of the land.  If this becomes available to everybody Eustace Conway will lose his shit and leave turtle island to throw down all over ginka.

I think scavenger is a cool guild, I was kind of wishing they were going to get direction sense but then glad they didn't because they would be too ranger.  I've made a bunch of subguild scavengers, they round out a few of the other classes quite nicely, especially if playing solo, which I usually do.

[hyzhenhok]

"They are also quick to find items and have a shrewd eye towards their possible worth."

Remember that the ability to foraging for food was added to the Scavenger guild some point back. That it certainly not entire point of the guild. You are severely underestimating the subguild. One of my favorites.

Though I agree with you that the Search/Secret Entrance system is kind of annoying, it doesn't have a whole lot to do with subguild_scavenger.

[Synthesis]

Blegh, it's fine.  Leave it the way it is.

Scavenger is a great subguild, now that it has forage_food capability.  (Not sure when it was added, but it wasn't always like that.)

Assuming everyone knows what kinds of plants and insects are edible (what giving everyone food_forage implies) is silly.

[janeshephard]

I discovered "forage food" for scavengers by accident and Nyr was nice enough to update the helpfile when I asked him recently. I too have no idea when it was added but I imagine well before I started playing.

[X-D]

Sxav is my third most used sub, I like it the way it is as well.

[Delstro]

Forage food for scavengers was added recently.

I disagree with the goal of this thread.

Sure, you could grab ants off the ground and eat them, but have you ever tasted a handful of these? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pissant

Sure, you could grab and eat a plant you find on the side of the path, but have you ever enjoyed the foliage and vines of a tomato? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tomato#Plant_toxicity

Sure, I could go on, but it is likely to cause paranoia.

[FantasyWriter]

Forage food: It's not about finding food lying on or under the ground... it's about knowing which things you find on or under the ground will kill you if you eat it.

If everyone got forage food back, I would want to see a lot of new poisonous food foragable that you would have to learn ICly (yes, by sickness or permadeath).


Search:  I would like to see search expanded, but not given to everyone.  Maybe add it to hunter, but that's about it.
            I do strongly dislike that one particular guild (to the bet of my knowledge doesn't get search, but that's another topic and too IC to go into on the GDB since it is a main guild issue.
           

[Gobbleneck]

Slashes janeshepard on her head, inflicting a grevious wound
No!

Armaddict has hit the nail on the head with the search skill.  Not only does it make certain hidden exits/room less safe, unique to find, and less known, but it relinquishes the need to require someone -with- the skill to scrounge for them.
Just like you would need to hire Beefy McWarrior to take on a Mek, you would need to hire someone with the search skill to find hidden rooms for you.
I don't want that to disappear because everyone and their mom has the search skill.  It reduces player involvement.

It's supposed to be something not everyone and their mom -can- do, and I'd like it kept that way.  And I'm sure there's an art to it that keeps it from being added to everyone just like there's an art to disarm/bash that keeps it from being added to everyone.

But as for forage food... I don't really care about that one.  If anything, spread it out to nomad and possibly hunter.

[shadeoux]

Give search to ranger class, give everyone forage food, add a shitload of poisonous new foods, give rangers an ability to identify poisoned foods. (If the above said doesn't exist)

[Reiteration]

Throwing it out there, but what about having search branch from hide or sneak? Surely they'd learn to spot secrets what with all the time they spend hugging walls. Ampere seems to agree with me on tinychat.

[shadeoux]

Throwing it out there, but what about having search branch from hide or sneak? Surely they'd learn to spot secrets what with all the time they spend hugging walls. Ampere seems to agree with me on tinychat.

imo Scan, but obvious reasons can't do that, so hide/sneak i wouldn't mind

[Bogre]

I use scavenger on a bunch of my fringe characters, I like it the way it is.

If -everyone- can find food, survival becomes WAY easier. And I'm not a fan of flooding skills to everyone that other characters can make a decent living on. It would also weaken the benefits clans give to their players.

"Oh, you brought all this food you found in the wastes to sell? Thats cool, bro, but I just have to go forage a bit outside the gate for all the food I need."

[jhunter]

I think it's fine the way it currently is.

[Spoon]

I'd say forage food is to do with knowledge and lifestyle. You might choke on poison ants and die if you didn't know what you were doing.

Aside from that, I always saw 'forage food' as something particularly skillful. Go search on youtube for Australian Aborigines foraging for food. Anyone who hasn't got their specific knowledge would starve to death out there.

[janeshephard]

Slashes janeshepard on her head, inflicting a grevious wound

janeshephard reels from the blow!

[Lizzie]

Forage food for scavengers was added recently.

Actually, no it wasn't. Scavengers have been able to forage food for a long time. It was just never mentioned in the help files and the people who did know about it, weren't telling, because it was one of those "psst I know a secret" code quirks. Sort of like how a particular shop used to pay really stupid amounts of money for a particular silk dress, even though that shop typically only sells sandcloth desert gear.

The fact that forage food is available to scavengers, was recently added to the help file. The fact that they could do it, is not recent at all.

[RogueGunslinger]

More like "Psst, don't tell anyone, because staff might take it away!"

[flurry]

Sort of like how a particular shop used to pay really stupid amounts of money for a particular silk dress, even though that shop typically only sells sandcloth desert gear.

Bug reports are a good way to deal with this kind of economy "secret".

[Lizzie]

Sort of like how a particular shop used to pay really stupid amounts of money for a particular silk dress, even though that shop typically only sells sandcloth desert gear.

Bug reports are a good way to deal with this kind of economy "secret".

The problems with that statement:

1. You have to know the secret.
2. You have to know that it IS a secret.
3. You have to know that the secret is a bug, and not merely an unknown feature (such as the fact that scavengers can forage for food).
4. You have to then actually bug rep it.
5. The staff has to then recognize that the bug is, in fact, a bug.
6. The staff then has to fix the bug.

If any of these 6 things don't occur, then no, bugrepping it is not a good way to deal with it. Bugrepping becomes a really bad, stupid, wasteful, and pointless way of dealing with it.

[AmandaGreathouse]

Forage food for scavengers was added recently.

Actually, no it wasn't. Scavengers have been able to forage food for a long time. It was just never mentioned in the help files and the people who did know about it, weren't telling, because it was one of those "psst I know a secret" code quirks. Sort of like how a particular shop used to pay really stupid amounts of money for a particular silk dress, even though that shop typically only sells sandcloth desert gear.

The fact that forage food is available to scavengers, was recently added to the help file. The fact that they could do it, is not recent at all.

Didn't know about the dress thing, but yes, every scavenger I've played has had it, some nearly a year before the change in the helpfile. In fact, when the helpfile discussion came up, I was one of the (I'm sure there were more) people who actually sent in about it, because it WAS a secret. I asked staff and was told they didn't, but asked helpers and was told they did, and even the staff went in and tested it before changing the helpfile because they didn't know. But yes, it was already in place.

To add to the discussion: I'd like to see food foraging added to hunter and nomad, and perhaps have that one, ridiculous and half there crafting skill that nomads have, be taken away in it's place. While I, personally, think that giving out food foraging to everyone is logical and makes sense, I know that everyone else is going to be up in arms about it and consider it a balance issue. W/e, I'll just play a buttload of whatever subguilds have it. And if that limits my character options, so be it.

[flurry]

The problems with that statement:

1. You have to know the secret.
2. You have to know that it IS a secret.
3. You have to know that the secret is a bug, and not merely an unknown feature (such as the fact that scavengers can forage for food).
4. You have to then actually bug rep it.
5. The staff has to then recognize that the bug is, in fact, a bug.
6. The staff then has to fix the bug.

If any of these 6 things don't occur, then no, bugrepping it is not a good way to deal with it. Bugrepping becomes a really bad, stupid, wasteful, and pointless way of dealing with it.

You're making it more complicated than it really is. If you suspect a bug (you don't need to be certain and it doesn't need to be a secret), you can report it relatively easily. It may or may not get fixed as a result.

For example, the other day I noticed a shop selling a particular arrow for a price that was, in my opinion, beyond ridiculous.  It took about fifteen seconds to report it.

On-topic: I like scavenger as-is, although I generally don't like the idea of ranger perks being made available through subguilds. In this case, I think it makes perfect sense.