Hall of Kings equipment thread

[Kryos]

Question says it all.  I've seen this spattered about the boards, but, I'd like to see an idea of how the player base feels on this subject.

[Spoon]

Cool idea, the trick is making them not so obvious as newbie gear and certainty avoid any potentially lucrative items.

[Cutthroat]

How I think it could work best:


> point <area>

Starting Equipment Shop for <Area> [Leave]
This is an equipment shop for <area>. Use 'list weapon', 'list armor', and so on to access different merchants. Type 'leave' when you are completely finished to enter the game proper.


The various merchants would have relatively cheap stuff that fits with the area you pointed to. Allanak would have obsidian weapons and leather armor, Tuluk would have wooden stuff, etc. You could even just pull the inventories from the shops that exist in those areas into these starting rooms. That Other RPI does something similar to this, and seems to work fairly well.

[Delstro]

Randomly generated inventory and I am down.

[AmandaGreathouse]

How I think it could work best:


> point <area>

Starting Equipment Shop for <Area> [Leave]
This is an equipment shop for <area>. Use 'list weapon', 'list armor', and so on to access different merchants. Type 'leave' when you are completely finished to enter the game proper.


The various merchants would have relatively cheap stuff that fits with the area you pointed to. Allanak would have obsidian weapons and leather armor, Tuluk would have wooden stuff, etc. You could even just pull the inventories from the shops that exist in those areas into these starting rooms. That Other RPI does something similar to this, and seems to work fairly well.

I like this.

Perhaps it could keep an inventory of the commonest clothing vendor. Like the ones in the commoners quarter (allanak) or the one in the warrens (tuluk). Not instead of, but in addition to. That type of thing.

[Saellyn]

I think it would be nice just to get some basic gear - like that merchant who needs his knives and tools, and some nice threads, or that warrior who needs his Excalibur and stuff.

Yes

[jmordetsky]

hmm, a store that was only accessible to n00bs? Wouldn't that screw up the market some? Seems to me the Arm economy is purely supported by the occasional injection of NARP (N00b Asset Relief Program). If we stopped propping up the real game armories with free n00b cash, what would happen? I think the Too big to fail merchant houses would collapse leaving zalanthas in terrible disarray.

[Winterless]

hmm, a store that was only accessible to n00bs? Wouldn't that screw up the market some? Seems to me the Arm economy is purely supported by the occasional injection of NARP (N00b Asset Relief Program). If we stopped propping up the real game armories with free n00b cash, what would happen? I think the Too big to fail merchant houses would collapse leaving zalanthas in terrible disarray.

Just because we would be able to buy clothing before we actually get IG doesn't mean that it would screw up the economy. I actually think it would bolster it. If I can spend less coins getting fully out-fitted then I would spend more coins on the accessories and more expensive items.

I am all for this, btw. It was in another MUD that I played for all of two minutes, but it was the play and atmosphere and "Hey, have you voted today?" echoes IG that made me not like it. Their hall of kings with the clothing shops was actually pretty rad.

And yes, if this gets implemented, rotating stock, please.

[jhunter]

Yeah, rotating, location-based, and a wide variety of choices for each type of item.

[Saellyn]

hmm, a store that was only accessible to n00bs? Wouldn't that screw up the market some? Seems to me the Arm economy is purely supported by the occasional injection of NARP (N00b Asset Relief Program). If we stopped propping up the real game armories with free n00b cash, what would happen? I think the Too big to fail merchant houses would collapse leaving zalanthas in terrible disarray.

Just because we would be able to buy clothing before we actually get IG doesn't mean that it would screw up the economy. I actually think it would bolster it. If I can spend less coins getting fully out-fitted then I would spend more coins on the accessories and more expensive items.

I am all for this, btw. It was in another MUD that I played for all of two minutes, but it was the play and atmosphere and "Hey, have you voted today?" echoes IG that made me not like it. Their hall of kings with the clothing shops was actually pretty rad.

And yes, if this gets implemented, rotating stock, please.

Sounds like SOI. They have a lot of "Vote today!" echoes IG.

[Malken]

hmm, a store that was only accessible to n00bs? Wouldn't that screw up the market some? Seems to me the Arm economy is purely supported by the occasional injection of NARP (N00b Asset Relief Program). If we stopped propping up the real game armories with free n00b cash, what would happen? I think the Too big to fail merchant houses would collapse leaving zalanthas in terrible disarray.

Just because we would be able to buy clothing before we actually get IG doesn't mean that it would screw up the economy. I actually think it would bolster it. If I can spend less coins getting fully out-fitted then I would spend more coins on the accessories and more expensive items.

I am all for this, btw. It was in another MUD that I played for all of two minutes, but it was the play and atmosphere and "Hey, have you voted today?" echoes IG that made me not like it. Their hall of kings with the clothing shops was actually pretty rad.

And yes, if this gets implemented, rotating stock, please.

Sounds like SOI. They have a lot of "Vote today!" echoes IG.

Not to derail too much, but it actually works for them, as you may have noticed.. (and you can also turn it off, easily). Armageddon's Elitism is getting us nowhere.

And how does a starting shop screw up the market? The economy of Armageddon is purely virtual, even if every PCs suddenly stop buying Salarr, it changes absolutely nothing to it's economy.

[Lithium]

hmm, a store that was only accessible to n00bs? Wouldn't that screw up the market some? Seems to me the Arm economy is purely supported by the occasional injection of NARP (N00b Asset Relief Program). If we stopped propping up the real game armories with free n00b cash, what would happen? I think the Too big to fail merchant houses would collapse leaving zalanthas in terrible disarray.

Just because we would be able to buy clothing before we actually get IG doesn't mean that it would screw up the economy. I actually think it would bolster it. If I can spend less coins getting fully out-fitted then I would spend more coins on the accessories and more expensive items.

I am all for this, btw. It was in another MUD that I played for all of two minutes, but it was the play and atmosphere and "Hey, have you voted today?" echoes IG that made me not like it. Their hall of kings with the clothing shops was actually pretty rad.

And yes, if this gets implemented, rotating stock, please.

Sounds like SOI. They have a lot of "Vote today!" echoes IG.

Not to derail too much, but it actually works for them, as you may have noticed.. (and you can also turn it off, easily). Armageddon's Elitism is getting us nowhere.

And how does a starting shop screw up the market? The economy of Armageddon is purely virtual, even if every PCs suddenly stop buying Salarr, it changes absolutely nothing to it's economy.

Good point. It's not like we're going to see the collapse of House Salarr because PCs can acquire weapons in the HoK. Actually, I'd be surprised to see the collapse of any House at any time for absolutely any reason. Lol.

[hyzhenhok]

hmm, a store that was only accessible to n00bs? Wouldn't that screw up the market some? Seems to me the Arm economy is purely supported by the occasional injection of NARP (N00b Asset Relief Program). If we stopped propping up the real game armories with free n00b cash, what would happen? I think the Too big to fail merchant houses would collapse leaving zalanthas in terrible disarray.

If this were really a problem, you could probably have the game inject, say, coins into the Salarr shop every time someone bought a sword or piece of armor from the Hall of Kings shop.

I would be fine if this only included clothing, not armor and weapons, though.

[Aaron Goulet]

When a new character "buys" stuff from these "shops", they're really just going through another step in the character creation process by giving their PCs the things they already "had" prior to entering the game.  It has no bearing on the actual in-game economy.

I voted "yes", by the way.  Rather than have these shops sell new items, I'd like to see them sell items already commonly found in-game in the city the player chooses (for a discounted price).  Less work for staff, and yet still fitting.

[jhunter]

I think a torch, waterskin/gourd, etc should be in your inventory along with your starting coin when you enter the Hall of Kings. Then, I think it should be selecting your clothing, backpacks, pouches, weapons, etc from the different npcs there. It should either be, pick one of each item at no cost, or there should be an amount of HoK coins (separate from your starting coins) to spend on your beginning clothes and gear.

>inv

Carried:
a large, wooden torch
a leather waterskin
<amount> obsidian coins
<amount> HoK coins

[BlackMagic0]

I'd rather not see the HoK get its own set of coins.

I'd rather each shop had discounted items for your starting location and you used your starting coin.

Since all this is, is to help you so don't gotta run to the market right away, it brings the market to you.

No giving extra coins, same coins, what your guy is rolled with. Just discounted items

[jmordetsky]

Just a quick note - I was just kidding. I thought NARP might have been obvious but...

[Aaron Goulet]

Just a quick note - I was just kidding. I thought NARP might have been obvious but...

D'oh!  You forgot the obligatory smiley face to clue us in! 

[hyzhenhok]

Just a quick note - I was just kidding. I thought NARP might have been obvious but...

If we implement Hall of Kings equipment shops, they should be for karma players only. Newb dwarf warrior entering the Gaj dorm with an obsidian sword already in hand? Hell no!

[jhunter]

I'd rather not see the HoK get its own set of coins.

I'd rather each shop had discounted items for your starting location and you used your starting coin.

Since all this is, is to help you so don't gotta run to the market right away, it brings the market to you.

No giving extra coins, same coins, what your guy is rolled with. Just discounted items

But you start with clothes and some basic things to begin with that are not subtracted from your starting coins. I don't think that should change. If even basic clothes and pack etc come out of your starting coin, then my vote is no.

[Winterless]

Even in the other game that I mentioned you had starting clothes that your PC was "birthed" with, so you could choose what of that to keep or toss. I do not like the idea of HoK coins separate from your starting 'sid, it should all come out of the same pot. The items available should be basic gear, not Super Paladin +3 Gloves of Healing. Just enough stuff to make you not immediately identifiable as a n00b.

[Qzzrbl]

I'd rather not see the HoK get its own set of coins.

I'd rather each shop had discounted items for your starting location and you used your starting coin.

Since all this is, is to help you so don't gotta run to the market right away, it brings the market to you.

No giving extra coins, same coins, what your guy is rolled with. Just discounted items

But you start with clothes and some basic things to begin with that are not subtracted from your starting coins.

That we know of.

[Cutthroat]

I agree that the coins spent in the Hall of Kings shop should be the coins you take into the game. That seems to make the most sense. You trade some of your starting 'sid for more starting gear.

I also like the idea of these shops' inventories rotating or being randomized somewhat. The list of available items should be exactly what is available commonly in that area.

[AmandaGreathouse]

I agree that the coins spent in the Hall of Kings shop should be the coins you take into the game. That seems to make the most sense. You trade some of your starting 'sid for more starting gear.

I also like the idea of these shops' inventories rotating or being randomized somewhat. The list of available items should be exactly what is available commonly in that area.

Agreed on all counts.

Although: I would like to see it done in such a fashion that all clothes sold fit on purchase (because we don't want an HOK tailor, I don't think. Maybe you would have to pay the amount extra for the item that it would take to get it tailored, but you just pay and don't have to wait like an IG tailor?), and you could say, trade your newbie pants/shirt/boots for other garments on the same wear slot without needing to pay much at all for them.

[Cutthroat]

I think that can be done, AG. Many shops already allow you to buy equipment in the correct size for you, provided you are willing to buy it at the full price and not haggle.

[jhunter]

I guess I don't really see the point if you have to buy your newbie clothes from your starting coin.

[AmandaGreathouse]

I guess I don't really see the point if you have to buy your newbie clothes from your starting coin.

Not having to start in the exact same clothes with every pc or go off hoofing it through the bazaar etc your first hour IG.

Also: They do? I don't think so. I mean, some may, but not in my experience. And I always 'view' the items before buying them.

[Malken]

I guess I don't really see the point if you have to buy your newbie clothes from your starting coin.

What do you do with your starting coin when you create a new character, invest it in the Zalanthean stock market? 

[hyzhenhok]

I guess I don't really see the point if you have to buy your newbie clothes from your starting coin.

What do you do with your starting coin when you create a new character, invest it in the Zalanthean stock market?  

Buy a mount, join the Byn, pay for food and water until I can get in touch with the Sarge. Oops, there went my starting coin. And I'm supposed to afford armor on top of that? (Exchange mount with armor, same thing.)

However, I don't agree with jhunter. His concern wouldn't be a problem if the stuff in the HoK was cheaper than usual. I don't see anything wrong with that, as long as it's not so cheap that you can sell it for a profit once you get IG.

[Malken]

Considering that I only VERY rarely see PCs wearing nothing but their starting tunic and starting pants, I'm going to assume that the vast majority do, indeed, spend their starting coin on armors, weapons and clothing.

Since I don't often play in the Byn, I don't know how often someone joins it with a mount and nothing else. I assume they always have some basic armors, as well.

Which you could now buy in the HoK, see? ^_^

[Xagon]

I'm all for a King shop. It might even be a good idea to completely strip the character in the beginning to force you to buy necessities from there. What if you really don't want those sausages, that torch, or those chalton boots? (Blasphemy, I know!)

A mixture of both random and common items would be nice to see.

[Qzzrbl]

I'm all for a King shop. It might even be a good idea to completely strip the character in the beginning to force you to buy necessities from there. What if you really don't want those sausages, that torch, or those chalton boots? (Blasphemy, I know!)

A mixture of both random and common items would be nice to see.

Maybe throw metal items up there too, but with exorbitant prices..... Just for shits and giggles.

[Spoon]

37) a rusty, steel-toothed chainsaw for 165657 coins

[Synthesis]

Having merchants in the Hall of Kings would be a bit of a blow to PC crafters in the game, because all those newbie coins would disappear outside of the game.

As it stands, a sizeable portion of those coins go to NPC merchants, who in turn use it to buy things from PC crafters (or buy back that newbie's loot when he dies and his killer trades the boots back in).

I doubt it would be game-breaking, but I'm not sure the convenience of one-stop OOC shopping outweighs the potential drain on the economy.

However, if implemented, each starting location should have its own unique shops, and those shops should have the same item-type value modifiers as similar shops in that starting location.  It would be bad if you could buy a wooden shield in the HoK at Tuluk prices, then > point allanak and profit.

[MarshallDFX]

I haven't read the whole thread, so perhaps its been suggested.  If draining the NPCs is a concern, why not just make them the same NPCs?  That is, it's OOCly assumed you went to the Salarr/Kadius shops or whatever, and the coins go to them.  They also have the same lists as whatevers in the actual Salarr/Kadius shop right now.  Which shops you get depend on where you pointed.

[armandhammer]

Another mud treats character creation as a memory of your character's past.

If you point allanak, you could enter a virtual bazaar which is nondescript but allows you to purchase from some of the familiar merchants.

[Synthesis]

I haven't read the whole thread, so perhaps its been suggested.  If draining the NPCs is a concern, why not just make them the same NPCs?  That is, it's OOCly assumed you went to the Salarr/Kadius shops or whatever, and the coins go to them.  They also have the same lists as whatevers in the actual Salarr/Kadius shop right now.  Which shops you get depend on where you pointed.

If they were the same shops and merchants, what would be the point of going through the trouble to code it?  To spare people the ignominy of walking around for a couple of hours in newbie gear?  I don't think that's a compelling reason.

I got the impression that what people are really interested in is having a set of shops that offer a wider variety of goods that are low to marginal in quality...things that for instance, are often sold out or only pop up when a PC crafter makes them (try finding a shovel in Allanak).  This is a nice idea, but I'd prefer to fix the in-game shops to correct this problem, rather than creating a bunch of new shops outside the game.

[Rogerthat]

Lets not and say we did.

[maxid]

Every time this topic comes up, it gains wild support, but its never implemented.

I personally support it, but there has to be some code, or economic hurdle we don't forsee, as the reason staff doesn't like the idea.   

[Lizzie]

I can see a combination of reasons that would lead to the staff not wanting to implement this.

1. It isn't necessary.
2. It is one less opportunity for new players to find reasons to explore the area they logged in to.
3. Because of #2, it's one more opportunity for map-sharers to justify sharing maps.
4. In order to be of any use at all, it has to be pretty convoluted. If it were to be kept simple, there'd be no point at all.

Combine all four of the above, and you have one pretty compelling reason for -not- implementing it.

[Praetorian]

Just put a belt seller in the Hall of Kings.  You ever try to find something as simple as a belt in the Allanak bazaar that isn't half the price of a mount?

Or at least they should add belts to the tailor-crafter NPCs that make clothing from the lists of colors | materials | wear locations.

I'd like to see essentially a starting room for each major location, so that if you point allanak are transported to a room with a tattoo vendor, starter clothing vendor, and an IC board so you can 'browse up' on things happening in the city of your picking, much of which you would already know before leaving to the city proper.

[Synthesis]

Just put a belt seller in the Hall of Kings.  You ever try to find something as simple as a belt in the Allanak bazaar that isn't half the price of a mount?

There's a really cheap belt in the commoner's quarter, in infinite supply.

[RogueGunslinger]

Just put a belt seller in the Hall of Kings.  You ever try to find something as simple as a belt in the Allanak bazaar that isn't half the price of a mount?

There's a really cheap belt in the commoner's quarter, in infinite supply.

THANK YOU. I've had belt problems since my newbie days. I've known about this one, but had forgotten about it until you reminded me.

[janeshephard]

Yeah, not finding a belt is very demoralizing. Give newbies a belt even if you want a short term fix.

[FantasyWriter]

Give newbies a belt even if you want a short term fix.

Please.

[5 day lifespan]

I just don't know why you don't get newb gear based on class anyway.  Or at least on Subguild.  Or, at the VERY least:

-A Dagger
-A Cape (with hood?)
-A Belt

And warriors might get a gith-gear leather shirt, rangers a similar spear or slingshot, and so on.  MAYBE.

The three items I listed are the sorts of things that most anyone would have if they started with 800+ coins anyway.  ESPECIALLY the cloak on Zalanthas!  You didn't survive to PC age without some kind of protection against the weather.  And daggers have long been used as eating utensils as much as side arms anyway.

[Qzzrbl]

I just don't know why you don't get newb gear based on class anyway.  Or at least on Subguild.  Or, at the VERY least:

Guild-sniffing.

Not to mention, we play the character, not the guild. ^w^

[5 day lifespan]

Fine.  How about including the additions I just mentioned in starting gear for all classes?  A cloak (no stam bonus), a crap dagger, and a shoddy belt.

Also in favor of more commoner NPC's walking around in newb gear.  Just to keep that starting kit from being so obvious.  Who among us did not, as new players, interact with NPC's who had scripts thinking they were PC's?

[LoD]

I notice that many of the people like to claim something isn't "necessary" as a reason not to pursue an idea.

Almost every feature added in the last 10-20 years hasn't been "necessary", but has probably helped make the game more enjoyable for its players, new and old.  I definitely support suggestions that would make the game more accessible, enjoyable, or accommodating to the needs of the player without incurring some kind of unwanted consequence.

Here's what I've seen thus far of the most common objections:

A HoK store would hurt the PC Merchants.

I've never purchased anything from a PC Merchant that I could have purchased from a hard-coded NPC within the first few hours of my PC's existence.  The reason for this is because I tend to avoid interaction with other players until my character has been properly dressed/outfitted to a state that represents how they would appear had they woken up that morning and treated it as any other day in their lives.  Instead, we are forced to spend the first few moments of our existence scrabbling around a sea of NPC merchants in-game in an effort to clothe and outfit our characters, as if someone had divested our characters of everything we owned, but offered us a handsome stack of coin for the trouble the night prior to our first login.

Due to the fact that I choose to interact with other PC's once my character is suitably dressed means that PC Merchants have a 0% chance of obtaining any of the coin I would use to purchase my character's first set of armor, clothing, and weapons.

It removes a need to explore the city.

I'm not sure the benefit of exploring the city outweighs the potential for frustration or annoyance at not being able to easily find shops that sell appropriate gear or a particular type of gear, especially things such as cloaks, belts, and variant packs.  Why would a foray into the unpopulated streets of the hard-coded city be a preferable use of time compared to entering the game fully clothed and ready to interact with players nearby?  I'd argue that a HoK store would probably promote more interaction with the playerbase and a higher chance of keeping new players focused on the experiences in-game that will "hook" them to playing.

It provides more opportunity for map-sharers to share maps.

If map-sharing is happening with new players, then it's either because they have RL friends that are distributing maps to them or someone else within the game is making OOC contact and sharing bad habits.  Either way, I don't think the potential to ask for or receive shared maps OOCly from other players is made any more likely with the inclusion of an HoK store.

If it's not complex, it's not worthwhile and a waste of time.

Something doesn't have to be complex in order to be effective or useful.  If you offer many of the same stock inventory offered at stores anyone can visit upon entering the game world, you will be no easier to mark as a new player than anyone else.  And I know several people that dislike the initial equipment-scramble because their background paints the picture of a reclusive or shady character purposefully avoiding contact or public visibility whereas the hard-coded reality generally requires them to break with their intended personality or plans in order to gather up items they should've had in their pockets that IC morning.

What about players that purchase a wooden shield at Tuluki prices and then point Allanak.

It should be fairly easy to insert the purchasing stage of character creation in between "point <city>" and actually arriving.  Pointing to one city would take you to mini-market where you could then clothe your character in a similar way to buying tattoos, scars, and other such character-defining objects.  This would ensure that someone doesn't abuse the ability to pre-purchase items.

New and Veteran players would benefit from this type of service in different ways.  New players would find it easier to get started, invest more in their characters by clothing and outfitting them without having to master syntax, wander around for 20 minutes in a dark sandstorm, or try to figure they way through the streets in off-peak hours with little to no IC help available.  They would be able to more readily begin interacting with their surroundings and begin experiencing the things we want them to experience.  I have yet to read a review of Armageddon where the author glowed about the sophisticated offer/barter system that drew them into the world.

Veteran players would be given some options to customize their characters and come out in-character straight out of the gate without having to invent some type of excuse or story to move about town making embarrassing purchases to cover their nearly-naked character.  If a character wanted to play a raider, thug, thief, spy, or other such shady character, they wouldn't be forced to wander highly-public areas to gather up clothes, weapons, and gear that, realistically, their character would've already owned.  It also lets veterans start playing the real game more quickly, when that's desired.

Ultimately, this is not a "necessary" addition -- but that doesn't mean it couldn't be useful on many different levels.

-LoD

[X-D]

I think the poll speaks for itself on this point.

I figured I'd weigh in by posting.

As I've said on other threads on this subject in the past. I am all for pregame merchants.

The nice thing about the idea is the fact that you could also cut some staff work as well.

Like for pcs that currently, because of clan/tribe/role require staff setup.

[Winterless]

The nice thing about the idea is the fact that you could also cut some staff work as well.

Like for pcs that currently, because of clan/tribe/role require staff setup.

Oh Krath, yes. This would make PC setup for especially for clans/tribes much quicker and easier, not only on just the player but also on the staff.

Once pointed to say... Blackwing for a d-elf you would have select merchants that could maybe call out the tribe that they sell for or have everything sold at a single merchant registered to a specific item # and in the docs for that clan/tribe it would say perhaps "items #13-27 in the pregame shop are for Whatchamacallit tribe". This way you could at least get in game and look the way your PC needs to as far as gear and the "You are so-and-so: a member of Whatchamacallit tribe" could be done whenever the staff are available.

[Fathi]

I couldn't possibly support this idea more.

The main appeal of it to me is the opportunity to purchase 'flavour' items that you otherwise have to wish up for. The sort of thing that your character would have or need, but doesn't get on chargen because they aren't part of the standard newb suit.

Anyone who's ever apped a peg-legged character knows my frustrations.

[Synthesis]

Again, putting a pre-game shop would have terrible implications for PC crafters.

Every newbie that comes into the game puts 400-1000 coins into the NPC shop economy.

Not to mention that, if newbies come into the game with cheap gear...how are cheap gear-selling PCs going to even have a chance?  It's hard enough catching newbs rolling through the Gaj or the Sanctuary before they go and blow all their coins on overpriced loot from Salarr.  It would be impossible if they blow it all before they even get into the game.

[X-D]

You know, since the last few shopkeeper fixes, I've never had a problem with them running out of coin, even in very out of the way places where they used to have no coin boot to boot.

[Synthesis]

You know, since the last few shopkeeper fixes, I've never had a problem with them running out of coin, even in very out of the way places where they used to have no coin boot to boot.

You haven't played a merchant recently, then.

[Qzzrbl]

Again, putting a pre-game shop would have terrible implications for PC crafters.

Every newbie that comes into the game puts 400-1000 coins into the NPC shop economy.

Not to mention that, if newbies come into the game with cheap gear...how are cheap gear-selling PCs going to even have a chance?  It's hard enough catching newbs rolling through the Gaj or the Sanctuary before they go and blow all their coins on overpriced loot from Salarr.  It would be impossible if they blow it all before they even get into the game.

Perhaps there could be a way to redirect coin spent at the HoK shops to the shopkeepers in the respective bazaar....

Make it to where when the shopkeeper "sells to a passerby" he's actually selling to a PC in the HoK?

Not sure how feasible it is.... But it's an idea. o: