Rangers using city sneak

[Bob]

Can rangers learn city sneak or can they ONLY use sneak in wilds?

[Dakkon Black]

AFAIK Rangertypes are only skilled in dinfing that dip in the sand, or that crevace in the rocks. Not the shadowy tarp, or dark sewergrating. UNlass of course you have a subguild that would give you sneak in the city, (pickpoket perhaps?). The point is they are two distinct skills and there have been threads before on naming them as such.

Eg. Rangers get Camoflage (hide) And Landwalk (sneak) Or something like that.

[creeper386]

Acctually. I don't think it's possible for rangers to be able to city sneak or vice versa. From what that Staff has said before, there is one sneak skill and it checks your guild for rather you can do it in the city or outside.

Therefor even if your a ranger and get sneak from pickpocket, it checks, sees ranger and you still have outside sneak. At least thats how I've taken it from Staff's posts and general knowledge.

Myself... I'd really like to see them with different skills. Then, even if you have to special app it you can have more range... Although it might be possible to do the same thing now... SHRUG.


Creeper can be absolutely wrong.

Lots of people like to debate that your (a ranger's) ability to hide around dunes, and move quietly to approach prey and what not would carry over minutely to a city. Because basic theories apply. For a ranger sneak up on a jozhal you might want to move quietly, and mostly unseen. For an elven thief to sneak up on a rich woman, they might want to move quietly, and mostly unseen. So some people like to argue that a ranger would have BASIC knowledge of sneaking in a city.

But anyways, I dont think that is the case.

[Delirium]

Going off the 'rangers would have a basic knowledge of how to sneak, regardless of locale' thing, I'd say that's probably already the case. Someone that is the stealth-master of the dunes is going to have a much harder time sneaking/hiding in a city, but it still isn't impossible. They probably could with some success - if they were good enough. Which makes sense. A ranger that can glide into the shadow of the nearest dune and slip off unnoticed isn't necessarily going to know the finer points of mingling unseen within a large crowd of people. Same goes vice-versa for city-stealths - they know the basic points of skulking about, so they'd know to slink into the shadows here and there, but they'll probably be stepping on twigs all over the place in the scrubs, because they're used to cobblestone and back alleys.

So, basically, I think it's fine the way it is. If your character's good enough at sneaking/hiding, they're probably good enough to remain relatively stealthy in an environment they're not used to, but they're not going to be able to pull it off like they would in a locale you're more familiar with.

This is all assuming that the skills work like I assume they do.

[creeper386]

Same goes vice-versa for city-stealths - they know the basic points of skulking about, so they'd know to slink into the shadows here and there, but they'll probably be stepping on twigs all over the place in the scrubs, because they're used to cobblestone and back alleys.

Hehe... I've yet to see truly decent cobblestone in the game, nor an alley that isn't more littered then your local forests...


Creeper

[Cuusardo]

Think about what exactly a ranger does, Bob.  And ask yourself, "Would it be appropriate for a ranger to be able to sneak through a city environment?"  Read up on not only the helpfiles here, but also other RPG sources about rangers, who they are, what they do, etc.  It's a big internet out there, and Google is your friend.

You've also got to ask yourself "Would it be appropriate to roleplay a ranger trying to sneak through a city?"

Think about it.

[jhunter]

I do think that it would be nice to have the option of coming up with someone who has the knowledge of sneaking and hiding both in the outdoors and in the cities though.

I'm all for making the two types of sneak and hide separate and distinct skills...that way a ranger who might have a background in city stealth would be able to do it to a certain point, rather than not at all.
The way they are now it sounds like whichever one is your primary guild skill, completely negates your secondary version of the skill.

[Cuusardo]

a ranger who might have a background in city stealth would be able to do it to a certain point, rather than not at all.
The way they are now it sounds like whichever one is your primary guild skill, completely negates your secondary version of the skill.

Why in the world would a ranger have a background in city stealth??

[Carnage]

Why in the world would a ranger have a background in city stealth??

'Ranger' isn't the title of a career in Zalanthas, nor necessarily a type of person. It's the OOC name of a skillset that best suits your character.

A city dweller who's not as tough as a warrior yet wants to bandage others, hunt people down, listen and scan, can be a ranger just as the outdoorsy caravan guide can be.

[Delirium]

Hehe... I've yet to see truly decent cobblestone in the game, nor an alley that isn't more littered then your local forests...

Bah, it's all relative! You know what I meant!  

[spawnloser]

There are subguilds that give sneak, either wilderness or city, and guilds that give sneak, either wilderness or city.  If you want someone with both, find a guild/subguild that will allow you to do both.

[jhunter]

That's part of what I was saying, as far as I've gathered for sneak and hide, your primary version overides your secondary version of those particular skills...making it basically nul in that situation.

[Synthesis]

Actually, there aren't subguilds that give you "city-sneak" or "wilderness hunt" or whatnot.

The way it was explained to me by an Imm a long, long time ago, and the way I -know- it works in the game is this:  the code checks your Class first, then your Class determines what type (city or wilderness) whatever skills you have that have the variants are.

Thus, a warrior/thief or a ranger/thief is going to have wilderness sneak.  And a burglar/hunter or assassin/forester is going to have city hunt.

Also, the city variants of a skill will work outdoors and vice versa, you just have to be -really- skilled for it to even start working.  Every good thief knows that it's probably a good idea not to be hiding in the tavern when the uber-ranger comes in, because his scan is gonna get you, whether he's outside or not.  I've had city classes who could 'hunt' outside the city with a fair amount of success (being able to pick up blood trails, at least).  Extrapolating from these examples, it would seem that 'hide' and 'sneak' operate in the same manner:  you won't get a successful hide or sneak out of your element until you are very skilled, and it's quite possible that, unless your class normally gets the skill and its cap is high (i.e. not merely a subclass-granted skill), you'll never be successful out of  your Class's element.

[gfair]

Just a pointer - the message one gets when a City Sneak tries to sneak in the desert, and vice versa.  Just because you can hide behind a tree successfully doesn't necessarily mean you can't hide behind a wall, under a dark table, etc.  That said, I have no clue what I'm talking about.    Just kidding, I can't say for sure, but I think there is something... there.

[spawnloser]

Okay, Synthesis, let's pretend you're playing a warrior or merchant and your sub-guild gives you sneak.  How is it determined then?

I know someone played a character that either in or outside hiding never received the message about him being outside of his terrain.

[Synthesis]

It's just the way the code works, until they do a major overhaul.  I know they haven't done a major overhaul, because my current character is affected by this quirk.

The version of the skill is determined by your class.  This is why you always see those newbie warrior/thieves sneaking around and failing miserably.  This is why, if you're an assassin/hunter, you can't track for shit unless you're in the city.  A while back, someone applied for a desert-elf assassin, and was told that because the Class would be assassin, the character would only have the city versions of sneak and hide.

I don't know -why- this is the case, I just know that it is.

[Cuusardo]

This is what the helpfile says, and I quote:

Exceptional rangers are able to move silently and remain unseen in the wilderness, detect sounds from far away, work with poisons, and parry enemy blows. Rangers are also often able to rescue friends from deadly situations, bandage serious wounds, and have a well-known rapport with animals, and can ride beasts of burden from the beginning.

If that doesn't just scream "OUTDOORSY" I don't know what does.

[creeper386]

There are some situations that although would still need a special app, but how it is now, with one skill, and a check for main guild... It doesn't even allow special situations I don't think. Unless the staff gave you one class and completely revamped your skills and it'd probably come out funky.

I know the concept of using an assassin outside such as a ambush hunter and such would be quite interesting, at least in my opinion. Could be a well thought out idea, but won't happen with the current code.

Shrug... I know a city ranger would be pretty nifty. More of a city bounty hunter type of thing. Yes, you can do it with other classes, but it wouldn't be the same really. Can think of all sorts of situations.

Although I think people are right that if you get good enough you can sneak/hide or at least have a chance out of your element... But thats not the same.


Creeper

[Dan]

Use a ranger as an outdoorsy assassin. With the hide and sneak they have, plus the use of poisons... it is most definately usable with the current code. Be creative!

[Carnage]

If that doesn't just scream "OUTDOORSY" I don't know what does.

You're absolutely right. It does.

But that doesn't mean you have to be an outdoorsy character to use them. You could be, say, a highly specialized noble guard and just as effectively use a ranger's skills. Listen in on conversations, scan and search for hidden assassins, brew antidotes, bandage your noble if they're hurt. It's limitless.

Your class is a set of skills that best effect a character. Just as selecting the burglar class doesn't make you a person who breaks into homes or a thief, being a ranger doesn't make you an outdoorsy type.

[spawnloser]

Hmm...that didn't answer my question about what kind of sneak or hide a warrior/thief or warrior/rebel would have...

[Sandor]

This whole argument is one reason I wondered why you can't pick what you want..

-Sandor

[creeper386]

This whole argument is one reason I wondered why you can't pick what you want..

-Sandor

That wouldn't help one little bit, at all. There is ONE sneak skill, and it checks your guild to see which one gets it. If you have ranger and thief you'd still get wilderness sneak, I THINK if your main guild doesn't get the sneak/hide it's based off the subguild but I'm not entirely sure. All I know is I HAVE seen assassins sneak in what I presumed to be wilderness...

And the code is class based... It'd take ALOT to make it skill based. It's not skill based... So thats why you can't pick what you want. End of whatever it is that it is.


Creeper

[Sandor]

Ah, that's...weird..

-Sandor