Observations on technology

[JollyGreenGiant]

This may not be interesting to anyone else, but I found it fascinating, so I thought I'd share with everyone

After playing Armageddon for a bit, I remembered something I'd read in Neal Stephenson's Snow Crash (good book, by the way) - the antagonist in the story used glass knives, because they could be honed to a monomolecular edge.  It's a sci-fi book, though, so at the time, I payed no attention to it.  Then I saw a glass knife in a shop in Armageddon, and thought to myself, "Hmm.  I wonder if that's really true."  So I fiddled around on the Internet to see what I could learn.

Sure enough, glass (and obsidian, which is volcanic glass), certain ceramics, and diamond are the only substances that can hold an edge that is only a single molecule in width.  It turns out that glass and obsidian are being used in scalpels and other surgical instruments because of this property - the sharper the edge, the less trauma there is when making a cut, and the better the cut will heal.  In fact, glass and obsidian are currently capable of making more precise surface cuts than lasers, and many doctors are using them in eye surgery.

Some anthropologists believe that the abundance of obsidian is one reason the Aztecs never developed any real mettalurgical skill.  They had very functional tools, and a shortage of usable mettalic ore, and thus no pressing need to develop sophisticated metalworking.  Spanish accounts during the invasion of the Aztec empire tell of warriors wielding obsidian blades so sharp they could cut a horse's head off in one blow.  Unfortunately, obsidian is also very brittle, and no match for the forged steel armor used by the Spanish.

Anyway, I thought that might interest people, since obsidian is used as weaponry and armor in Zalanthas.  Since steel is rare, not to mention awkward and potentially dangerous to use in the desert, obsidian makes very deadly weapons, if short-lived, since obsidian tools can't be repaired.

[John]

Wouldn't glass shatter? :shock:

Don't doubt your sources, just confused how that would work (with weapons. Not surgical tools of course )

[X-D]

Glass can be tempered in many ways, from soft enough to make a coil spring from to hard enough with a tube having walls 1/16 inch thick you can pound 16d nails into oak, the tempering is also combined with glass types, as with metals, impurities can change the charecteristics of the material.

And on the glass scalpals, they have been in use now for better then 20 years that I know of.

[creeper386]

Glass weapons are acctually fairly common. Although they aren't often used in anything larger then daggers, and normally not used as a parrying weapon or anything. Even glass made with low technology can be quite solid. It's not a window pane, it's a big hunk. Maybe weaker then obsidian but probably not a grand amount. And glass can be shaped easier then obsidian and is normally alot cheaper, and in more abundance anywhere.

Ceramic is the same thing. Although unfired stuffed is really britter after being fired it can be VERY sharp and normally only breaks easiely if made into large things. Smaller bits tend to be stronger for some reason.

What I'd like to see, is more of these weapons. As obsidian is supposed to be one of the main currencies, I would think obsidian weapons should be alittle more expensiver, and bone weapons and such wouldn't normally have the weight nor the edge to them.

Currently have a small collection of smaller weapons that I've been working on to submit. Currently only have three though. A ceramic edged weapon, a glass one, and an obsidian tipped one. Most of the collection is only going to have glass/obsidian/ceramic as the blade or point instead of the whole thing. Has more support from the main material, as well as easier/cheaper to repair the small bit instead of replace a whole weapon. And no, the glass weapon isn't meant for melee combat in it's true form. Just need to get more descriptions together... And hope the staff doesn't mind finding a place to put them.


Creeper

[JollyGreenGiant]

Wouldn't glass shatter?

As other people have pointed out, glass can actually be pretty strong.  However, in my opinion, the potential to leave glass shards in a victim is also a good selling point...   :shock:

[Dracul]

Glass-or even plastic knives which I've seen people make (incredibly sharp) ...can even get past metal detectos

perhaps mildly off topic. but for any would be terrorists.

[5 day lifespan]

perhaps mildly off topic. but for any would be terrorists.

:Raps Dracul hard on the head: Bad Monkey.  Role players are unhinged enough, didnt you know that?  (thinks about local ordinances against gaming)

In any event, I was also thinking about a glass dagger intended to break after I saw a decorative dagger described.  Perhaps it could hold poison, too...  Even if it didnt, what properties would it have?  Would movement trigger further wounds as the glass worked its way around?  Would only a doctor be able to mend it? WOuld it do a little additional damage until it eventually worked its way out?  How could such a thing be implimented?

>stat

You are affected by:
Glass

Maybe use the poison code?

[Sandlord]

real sharp glass tipped arrows with wooden or bone shaft :twisted:

[gfair]

As obsidian is supposed to be one of the main currencies, I would think obsidian weapons should be alittle more expensiver

This is a common misperception about currency - "sid" doesn't have its value because it's made of obsidian - that implies it is explicitly valuable:  it's valuable because of what it's made of.

However, once a piece of obsidian is turned into a coin, there is little else of value that it can be turned into.  I say little, not nothing.  This greatly diminishes the value of the actual obsidian itself, but that value is completely independent of the value of 1 obsidian coin.

The value of sid is actually implicit - it's valuable only because it's the standard form of accepted currency in Zalanthas.  And usually, it has value because it is required by law to accept it as a form of payment.  Now, I'm not sure about that portion of the legal code of all the cities, but it may be that it has value because it has the king's mark on it, either Muk or Tek.


And just as an aside, we see a perfect example of this difference between explicit value and implicit value with gold coins.  You can buy a US $25 dollar coin made of 99.999% pure gold.  However, the amount of gold itself is worth much more than $25 if it were sold as a commodity.  But if gold were to become worthless tomorrow, the coin is certified by the US government as having a value of $25, so you will always be able to get that amount for the coin because of implicit value.

[creeper386]

Gfair... IRL gold would not be worth a damn thing if it wasn't used as currency. Gold has really no benefits besides what people put on it.

Now obisidian, not only is it a currency, but it seems to be used in all sorts of expensive things. Yet obsidian weapons, which are made out of a valuable resource and are probably some of the sharper weapons out there... Go for a few piddly coins...

When there is abundance of material for other things why would something thats considered quite valuable, go for such low prices in large bulky forms. Now true, ceramic may not be grandly used because it takes liquid to form it... but when wet clay is found... it can be formed and fired fairly quickly/easiely, and can even be fired and THEN shaped if your not sure what you want. It's alot harder but it wouldn't be much different then knapping(Right word right?) obsidian found naturally. Then their glass... Should be a fairly common thing, it's cheap the world wide through IRL there isn't much reasons why glass would be uncommon, except perhaps in it's clearer/prettier forms and the skill to make windows and such out of it. More common things would probably be cheaper. And if you think ceramic or glass would be rare... Look around. I see ceramic things all over... Glass is alittle rarer, but it's still about.

I personally thing obsidian should acctually be expensive. I still don't know how your supporting it shouldn't be by comparing it with gold. Gold used in coins is expensive... Now go out and buy a sword made completely out of gold. It'd pull quite a penny. Although obsidian swords are expensiver in the north, cheaper in the south, I don't think even in the south they should be cheaper then bone or even wood weapons. An obsidian weapon... Even compared to good wood weapons would be superiour in just about every thing... Even hard wood thats been hardened isn't going to be able to have an edge close to as sharp as obsidian, it's not going to keep a sharp edge for nearly as long. An obsidian blade might be more likely to break completely, but it's going to work MUCH better for the time it is working then a wooden sword, and most likely require less work on keeping it up.

Creeper

[John]

When there is abundance of material for other things why would something thats considered quite valuable, go for such low prices in large bulky forms.

Obsidian is rare? I thought the fact it's used as a currency was indicative of how common it is.

Can someone explain why it isn't advantageous to create counterfeity coins with obsidian? I know there's a reasoning for it, I just can't work it out (and I think it might help with explaining why obsidian is so cheap)

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

In reality, the denzians of the world Zalanthas would be much more likely to have never even developed coin, but rather bartered via trade. However, the worth attributed to Coin is dependant on the fact that it is accepted by the majority of traders. Were there to be a breakdown in the economy, and the Kuraci and the Northerners decided to forego Tek's marked coins, then you would likely note the decline of the coin even within Allanak.

I actually feel that a more logical choice of coin would be diamond or some other form of precious stone. These could be etched with a simple design and accepted most places, since the very stone itself is rare through the -entire- world, rather than just in the North or just in the South.

I think counterfitting obsidian coins would only be a worthwhile venture if you were crafting with obsidian anyway, since that big hunk of obsidian is worth more than its weight in coins, since it's a stone, and it's much harder to mine it in large chunks than it is in little flakes that we call coins. So your arm-length piece of obsidian is going to be worth -more- than the perhaps hundreds of coins you could potentially make from it. But if you're making an obsidian longsword anyway, you could use some of the chipped off pieces for conterfitting, unless there's some magical minting we don't know about.

[JollyGreenGiant]

On the subject of currency, I remember a bit of my Econ classes.  Theoretically, if you have a dollar, you could go to the ... hmm, actually I don't remember where you'd go, US Treasury Dept maybe, and you could exchange that dollar for a dollar's worth of gold.  Your paper dollar has no implicit value.  Gold does have implicit value, because it is 1) rare and 2) in demand.  At one time, the value of aluminum was MUCH higher than gold, because the process for separating it from the ore was so costly.  That's why the tip of the Washington Monument is made from aluminum.  At the time, it was a show of wealth.  Years later, a process was patented that made aluminum the cheap metal it is today.  Before the Assyrians Empire, I believe that silver was actually more valuable than gold.  The perceived value of these "precious" metals has changed based on their availability and demand.  The point is, even the backing for our paper currency is based on a perceived value.  At some point, someone had to decide that an ounce of gold was worth four chickens and a bushel of wheat.  Or whatever.

I was under the impression that obsidian was pretty common in Zalanthas.  That means that obsidian coins are like paper currency - worthless in terms of implicit value.  However, they're used as a representation of something of actual value.  Any civilization eventually develops currency, even if they keep the bartering system that that currency is based on, because generally speaking, it's more practical to carry a bag of coins to swap in exchange for stuff than to carry around four chickens and a bushel of wheat.  

From a value standpoint, I'd think that the "backing" for obsidian currency would be water, since water is both rare and in demand.  Regardless of whether the merchants, nobles, or kings decided that 1 obsidian coin was worth an ounce of water (or whatever, I'm just making up numbers at this point), it's now the standard.  And since you can trade in your obsidian coins for their actual value in water... your currency system is liquid.  Bahahahahah   :lol:

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

Actually, I would be rather interested in hearing from a staff member on this matter. Just what backs obsidian coin? Why is it accepted by -everyone-? Give us some history, please?

[creeper386]

First... I never said obsidian is rare... But it is difficult to mine in any large forms. As crafting a sword from a large hunk of obsidian is going to be quite wasteful.

So your arm-length piece of obsidian is going to be worth -more- than the perhaps hundreds of coins you could potentially make from it.

This is the problem. And I beleive several people have mentioned it... Obsidian should be expensiver then it is. I imagine the coins as not being that big... Probably could make at least a hundred 'sid coins from a large sword... But you can buy that sword for 70 'sid... How does that work? That would mean the coin itself is worth much more then the acctual resource it's made out of. See... Paper is worthless... The resource paper money is based on IRL if gold, which is worth WAY more then paper or measly metal coins. So it makes since, but in Armageddon, especially in the south, things made from obisidian or raw obsidian seems to be rather cheap... Especially cheaper then other things... Now an obsidian sword even if it is WAY worse then a bone sword, should cost more because it's made of obsidian, but not only does it have plenty of advantages over bone weapons, and it's made out of expensive materials, it's still fairly cheap... Just doesn't make since.

And I'm guessing ceramics and glass is just incredibly rare on Zalanthas? Even without much liquid... Theres bound to be a varying degree of clay in the world. And... Isn't mica one of the easiest to find minerals? Think it's mica... Anyways... With all that sand.. It'd have to be way different to not contain the minerals needed for glass.


Creeper

[gfair]

Gfair... IRL gold would not be worth a damn thing if it wasn't used as currency. Gold has really no benefits besides what people put on it.

Actually, Creeper, gold isn't used anywhere in the world for government-legislated currency, and it has tremendous tangible benefits if you want to know. But those are two lengthy topics that are better explored in the OOC forum.

Now obisidian, not only is it a currency, but it seems to be used in all sorts of expensive things. Yet obsidian weapons, which are made out of a valuable resource and are probably some of the sharper weapons out there... Go for a few piddly coins...

You're getting implicit and explicit value confused here.  Obsidian isn't currency, it's a material.  People are not transacting with obsidian, they're transacting with coins with the mark of the king on them.  Obsidian by itself has no implicit value - it doesn't grow over millions of years with the mark of the king on one side.  Coins could be made of any solid material, and so long as the king's mark was on it, that would be official, legally-enforced currency, just like obsidian coins.

As for obsidian weapons not having the same value as more expensive things made of obsidian, this deals with the concept of 'added value'.  As the skill of a crafter goes up, so too does the value, quality and desirability for the crafter's works.  That is why fine jewelry costs far more than commonly available weapons in the game - there is a lot more time put into it, at the least, and quite often rarer materials are used as well.  This goes for many things.  You will note that raw obsidian is never as valuable as the items made from it - that is added value at work.  

I personally thing obsidian should acctually be expensive.

The value on obsidian is dictated entirely by supply and demand.  If you think obsidian should be more expensive, then you are implying either there should be less supply or greater demand.  Simple as that.  But as it is, I think Obsidian is priced well, both in raw form and in crafted items, given what I've seen of it in the game.

I still don't know how your supporting it shouldn't be by comparing it with gold. Gold used in coins is expensive... Now go out and buy a sword made completely out of gold. It'd pull quite a penny. Although obsidian swords are expensiver in the north, cheaper in the south, I don't think even in the south they should be cheaper then bone or even wood weapons. An obsidian weapon... Even compared to good wood weapons would be superiour in just about every thing... Even hard wood thats been hardened isn't going to be able to have an edge close to as sharp as obsidian, it's not going to keep a sharp edge for nearly as long. An obsidian blade might be more likely to break completely, but it's going to work MUCH better for the time it is working then a wooden sword, and most likely require less work on keeping it up.

I used gold coins as an example to illustrate the distinct differences between explicit and implicit value, and not at all to support the argument.

Obsidian has value for these reasons you give it here, Creeper, but you don't mention any of its drawbacks.  The associated tradeoffs with obsidian weapons are precisely why it is priced the way it is.

Obsidian can hold a sharp edge, but it is also very brittle for a rock.  That is where the value of obsidian as a weapon goes out the door.  Brittle obsidian means that it will notch or break much easier than other materials used for weapons (bone, chitin, horn, other stone), and a weapon with those properties is the last thing a fighter wants to have when fighting for his/her life.  Thus, the negative tradeoff of obsidian lower demand for it, and that in turn lowers price.

[X-D]

Ok, Now I'm going to throw a bit into the mix.

Jollygreen had the right of it and besides obsidian is very common on zalanthas, or at least I've never had any problems finding it, but Jolly and Gfair did leave out hard currency which works slightly differently then paper.

Paper is a promisary note stating that it is backed by x amount of gold, coins on the other hand have thier own value but it is still based in gold.
At one time, the penny for instance was actually made of copper, copper having it's own value but still backed by whatever it's value was in gold, same went for all the rest of the coins, the coins date back before a national paper currency was established so that people could trade state to state because one states paper currency might not be accepted by anothers and even after the national currency was established many countries would not accept it but would accept the coins.

Though, I would like to know what exactly is backing the currency on zalanthas at least from city to city, sure inside allanak accepting a coin with tektolnes mark on it is backed by the many tamplars about going "you'll except that as payment cause tektolnes says you will" A convinsing arguement I think, but what about outside that area, to a northerner a nakky coin backed in that manner is less then worthless.

[John]

what about outside that area, to a northerner a nakky coin backed in that manner is less then worthless.

The fact that they want to trade with the Merchant Houses is a pretty good influence. Plus, it saves all the outsiders the hassle of having to make their own coin

Now trading from tribe to tribe I imagine would use no coin. Can't eat obsidian

[JollyGreenGiant]

I was thinking about the issue of glass as I read through the most recent posts in this discussion, myself.  "Why isn't there more glass?  There sure is a lot of sand."  Then I realized why.  Creating glass from sand requires tools that can manipulate the melted slag.  Normally, those tools are metal.  Since that's not going to happen in Zalanthas, you're stuck needing tools that can be shaped, that are hard and retain their shape once they've been made, and that won't melt or burn in liquid glass slag.  And I couldn't think of any common materials that would fit that profile.  Chitin and wood would burn.  Ceramic and brick would work ok as basins and molds, but could you make glass-blowing tools out of them?  So, maybe that's why there isn't more glass.

[X-D]

More likly some of the other ingredients to glass are unknown to most and probly very rare. Glass is far from just silicate sand...oh, and what type of sand do we have anyway, could be flint or something other then silica:)

[Rindan]

Obsidian coins are not free market items to be created and traded.  They are made by the government and distributed by the Allanaki government.  You can't start your own obsidian mine and legally start making coins.  Thus, the value of obsidian and an obsidian coin are two different things.  It doesn't matter if one costs more then the other.  The value of the actual coin is very simple to determine.  If the Allanaki government it is respective houses say that all payments need to be made in obsidian, and that so many obsidian are worth some many goods, then obsidian is worth that much.  In the case of Allanak, I would imagine that water and renting rights are what determine the base value of obsidian.  If you can buy a quart of water for 20 'sid, then 20 'sid are worth a quart of water, not matter how valuable the obsidian it took to make those 20 'sid.  If you don't have 20 'sid, then you are not getting any water.

In fact, I imagine that on Zalanthas keeping something that is essentially worthless worth something is probably fairly easy.  Trade is dominated by the government and noble houses  So long as they say that they are trading based upon obsidian currency, you really can't argue.  If you try and trade your kank for a few gallons of water they will tell you to go to hell.

[gfair]

Actually, I would be rather interested in hearing from a staff member on this matter. Just what backs obsidian coin? Why is it accepted by -everyone-? Give us some history, please?

What backs obsidian coin?  Nothing.  It's Fiat money.  It would have to be, or there are some obvious implications.  One, there is no OOC information that I know of that discusses any backing of Sid.  Two, there is no IC information either.  Three - what would back Sid?  You have to be able to redeem your Sid for that underlying valuable item/commodity, otherwise the system of Representative currency breaks down.  There are not many other commodities that could be used without repercussions.

Also, Representative money requires that the bank, in this case Nenyuk, must hold a huge amount of value as the commodity reserve that it keeps to back sid.  Thus, the consequence is that they lose a huge amount of profit in the loans they forego, and they know that, so Fiat money is much more profitable, frees up a lot more value to be put into the economy as sid, rather than centralized as commodity reserves (and that on top of the sid reserves Nenyuk has to keep as well).


Second, why is it accepted everywhere?  Because the consequences are ugly, ugly, ugly.  Assuming it isn't, the alternative is a competing form of currency, or barter.  That requires people to carry two types of currency, they get dinged when they exchange, there is the complicated situation of arbitrage, etc.  Or with barter, you run into the double coincidence of wants, the sheer number of exchange rates skyrockets with the number of goods.  There's another situation - goods.  For the PCs in Arm that aren't crafters, and aren't farmers or produce anything, they have nothing to trade.

To consider the alternative of another currency means to consider a lot more code, and a lot of complication, and the result is more hassle for players as well.  And once you consider multiple currencies, you have to consider all the other complications that come with it - currency exchange, monetary speculation, arbitrage, the impact of war on the respective value of the two currencies.

In my opinion, the current system is necessary for playability, and the alternatives are not worth the time spent both by the staff and the players.

[crymerci]

Why do you assume there's nothing backing the money?  Ever noticed that Nenyuki signet rings are silver, whereas other merchant house signet rings are not?  I'd be willing to bet that Nenyuk as a House is much wealthier (in resources, power, and income, not just coin) than even top-tier noble Houses.

[gfair]

Why do you assume there's nothing backing the money?  Ever noticed that Nenyuki signet rings are silver, whereas other merchant house signet rings are not?  I'd be willing to bet that Nenyuk as a House is much wealthier (in resources, power, and income, not just coin) than even top-tier noble Houses.

I make the assumption for some very obvious reasons - there is no information anywhere on what backs Sid.  And for Sid to be representative currency, there has to be full disclosure, and access to that commodity.  See, in representative money, the value of the currency is dependent on the value of the asset reserves.  If people can't get access to the assets backing the currency, then the value of the currency disappears.  Fiat money does away with that - there is no asset backing the money, the only backing is that the law states that merchants must accept the currency as a form of payment, or they can be punished.  This is why Sid is, in my opinion, Fiat money.


As for the wealth of Nenuyk, you're probably right crymerci, it probably is the wealthiest House.  After all, Nenyuk has a monopoly on currency.  And most monopolies are incredibly wealthy.  But wealth and financial reserves of Sid and the commodity backing it are entirely different.  So regardless of how much silver Nenyuk may have, if it isn't being used to back Sid, then it has no relevant involvement in the currency system.

http://www.armageddon.org/cgi-bin/help_index/show_help?obsidian

http://www.armageddon.org/cgi-bin/help_index/show_help?money

http://www.armageddon.org/cgi-bin/help_index/show_help?bank

[Jacques]

FYI - acting on information received from others. Read at your own risk.

Most people I've spoken with tell me that the "backing" of U.S. currency is a thing of the somewhat distant past. We haven't been on the "gold standard" in quite a while. Our money is, perhaps like obsidian, worth only the amount that people are willing to exchange for it. Think of it this way: If the U.S. dollar and Japanese yen are both backed by gold, how will the dollar ever be "down" against the yen? Why would the Canadian exchange rate be so variable? It's because the value of the currency is (again, as it has been explained to me) based on the perception of the strength of the economy backing it. You can ALWAYS buy $1 of gold. But that $1 of gold is determined based on the market value of gold, not because the government has said "0.003 grams of gold is equal to one dollar" or some other similar comparison.

So maybe obsidian coins work in the same way. The government has said "this note is legal tender for all debts, public and private" (look at your U.S. dollar bills, folks - it's on there, last I checked), so that's the currency used. People might still barter, but when they don't, the 'sid is the money used. The actual value of one coin would be determined to a large part by how many of them there are and the supply of goods. Inflation COULD happen - so could deflation. But because they're not being flooded into the market, and because the supply of goods is more or less steady, the value of the coin holds more or less the same. The government says you HAVE to accept it, so fine - I'll take 13 for this cup of water, thanks, because the guy next door wants 75 for that new pair of shoes for my wife... (continue ad nauseum)

[JollyGreenGiant]

I thought about posting in here earlier, but gfair, X-D and Jacques did such a great job that I don't have to

[gfair]

Most people I've spoken with tell me that the "backing" of U.S. currency is a thing of the somewhat distant past. We haven't been on the "gold standard" in quite a while.

True - since 1971, and I think the president who unpegged it was LBJ.

Our money is, perhaps like obsidian, worth only the amount that people are willing to exchange for it. Think of it this way: If the U.S. dollar and Japanese yen are both backed by gold, how will the dollar ever be "down" against the yen?

For a couple of reasons.  Currency in our world is traded on international markets, and the variables are still the strength of the economy, but now also the strength of gold and how much gold is pegged to the USD in comparison to the Yen.  It wasn't obligatory to back the full amount of paper notes in Gold, but the backing was usually a certain weight of gold. For example, something like 1/35th of a Troy Ounce of gold.

And since gold typically sees higher value in weaker economies, it's a hedging strategy - when the US economy weakens, and if there are other announcements of weak economic news in the world, then people buy gold, which essentially means the reserves backing any country with the Gold standard go up, making that currency more valuable.

"this note is legal tender for all debts, public and private"

This is the Fiat, specifically referred in this quote as "legal tender" - it's the law that makes it obligatory for all people in the US to accept US dollars as a form of currency for payment.

The actual value of one coin would be determined to a large part by how many of them there are and the supply of goods. Inflation COULD happen - so could deflation.

True - the Chinese were recorded by Marco Polo as the first ever civilization known to use Fiat money, but they also found that if used excessively, inflation would skyrocket.

In Arm, I think the situation is different - if the system were modeled after the real currency systems in the world, you might see inflation and deflation depending on how Nenyuk handles its monetary policy.  But Arm isn't modeled like that - inflation happens, but it has nothing to do with the money supply.