Combat: Stamina Loss

[Gunnerblaster]

Yes, I know this has been brought up countless times before - Some ideas saying to use Race to measure how much stamina is lost in a fight. Well, this is my unoriginal idea. To me, it just seems dumbly realistic and not crippling to anyone's gameplay. I think it's damned awesome to see people tired out after a normal fight/spar - And not just because they were spamming kick/disarm/bash. Instead of just fighting until one PC or the other dies/flees - Now there is a chance for a draw. Imagine two fighters, exhausted, just barely managing to swing at eachother. If they insist of continuing the fight, someone will eventually die - Sure, but it won't be quick and it won't be fun.

Stamina loss per combat round, dependent on class.
Warrior = -1
Ranger = -1/-2
Assassin = -1/-2
Burglar = -2
Pickpocket = -2/-3
Merchant = -3

Fighting with 0 Stamina:
- Obviously, no disarm/bash/flee/kick
- Combat penalty (Less damage, less accuracy, less evasion, etc.)

Endurance has another reason to be considered a large factor in combat then just Agility/Strength.

What're your ideas on this, guys/gals? Yay - Nay?

[Gunnerblaster]

Just a note that this is planned to go in, we're working on foundation projects to get ready for it.

Sorry for those of you who don't want it.  Again I'll say, there is always posts about how this change or that change will 'ruin the game'.  And yet, the game is still there, and people are still playing.  The people who think the game is ruined will find another game to play that isn't ruined.

I should've looked through the posts before posting this.

Forget it. People have been on this way before me.

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

Yay, by all means. Some of this is already in place. Combat skills cause fatigue. I still wish rounds did as well.

[Zoltan]

Yay, by all means. Some of this is already in place. Combat skills cause fatigue. I still wish rounds did as well.

Seconded. Though at an extremely low rate, especially for warriors (which, yes, was kind of outlined above).

[Adiadochokinesis]

No.

[Gunnerblaster]

Meh, it adds a realistic flare to the game without crippling gameplay but Morg said this was going to get implemented anyways so... Anything beyond this is excess.

[Adiadochokinesis]

Meh, it adds a realistic flare to the game without crippling gameplay but Morg said this was going to get implemented anyways so... Anything beyond this is excess.

It seems like it would just be very, very, very annoying.

[X-D]

very very very very very

[Synthesis]

I'd like to point out that pickpockets in fact are more combat-oriented than burglars, based on their skill tree.

Also, you already suffer fairly significant penalties when you go from "completely rested" to "not tired" to "a little winded" to "tired" and so on.

Furthermore: most fights these days end LONG before anyone would run out of stamina, thanks to the defense nerf.  If someone is so defensively untouchable that they can go 100+ rounds against you without already being mortally wounded, chances are they are also so offensively skilled that they can melt your face off with their bare fists even if you've got a Dragon-blessed steel greatsword equipped.

The only place I can see this mattering is for certain magicks.

[Cutthroat]

It would be annoying in the sense that instead of kill thing -> kill thing -> kill thing you'd have to do kill thing -> rest -> kill thing -> rest -> kill thing (unless there's something I'm missing here).

Is that good or bad? I'd wager both.

It would encourage people to slow down and actually RP being worn out from a long fight. Groups would recoup and recover together and there would be some interaction going on there.

There would be a lot of solo'ers dying, but I guess the code would encourage grouping too.

Maybe it's more good than bad.

[Veges]

I don't think it should be guild-dependent. If anything, the stamina loss should depend on skills and/or stats. We already have stun and health regeneration that depends on guild and it isn't very realistic.

[Morrolan]

I don't think it should be guild-dependent. If anything, the stamina loss should depend on skills and/or stats. We already have stun and health regeneration that depends on guild and it isn't very realistic.

[Halcyon]

I dont think this is a big enough problem to ask for coder time for a "fix".  I don't think any more mechanical incentive should be made towards some race/guild combinations on combatants, and away from others, and this would have that effect.

No thanks.

[brytta.leofa]

I don't think it should be guild-dependent. If anything, the stamina loss should depend on skills and/or stats. We already have stun and health regeneration that depends on guild and it isn't very realistic.

Thirded.  Or add a sekret "conditioning" skill.

Second thought, don't add a sekret conditioning skill.  I'm already scairt of the delves.

[IntuitiveApathy]

I don't think it should be guild-dependent. If anything, the stamina loss should depend on skills and/or stats. We already have stun and health regeneration that depends on guild and it isn't very realistic.

Thirded.  Or add a sekret "conditioning" skill.

Second thought, don't add a sekret conditioning skill.  I'm already scairt of the delves.

Fourthed, but I don't like a conditioning skill.

Warriors fight better than burglars in that they can smash your face in better, or prevent their own face being smashed in better.  That doesn't mean they should automagickally be able to fight longer.  Should be based on endurance.  Same with the automagick stun/health regen - should be levelled to be entirely endurance based rather than class based.

[jhunter]

I absolutely believe it should be guild dependant to a degree.
Your average warrior, whose primary function is melee combat should not tire as quickly in combat as any other average class. There should also be modifiers dependant upon melee combat skills as well. So, a warrior vs. a ranger of equivalant skill levels (in regards to melee skills) should not tire as quickly. But a ranger vs. a lower-skilled warrior might tire about the same or less than said warrior.
This difference would be the result of conditioning dependant on skill focus. No additional "conditioning" skill would be necessary. Obviously, if your primary skillset is melee combat, then you -are- conditioned for it more that those whose primary skillset is not. In addition, I think the stam. drain on "extra combat skills" for those whose primary guild is combat-based should be less than one whose primary guild is not combat-based.
And it should also be modified by what your secondary guild is as well as modified by the character's endurance stat.

[Kryos]

Not that I'm totally against this, but I don't see this having a huge net benefit for the game were it to be implemented as suggested.  If you wanted to make it more significant, then you'd need to crank this up to between 5-10 stamina lost per round.  Secondly, I'm not sure this does anything I'd appreciate as a player who does the whole mundane thing.  Feels like you'd be kicking someone while they're down, as mundanes are already very much on the bottom of the pile.  Lastly, this would make a certain race VASTLY more awesomesauce, and as I've experienced, said race needs *no* help being awesome.

[spawnloser]

I am dissappointed that this is planned to go in.  Combat goes by too quickly... especially since you don't actually get an attack every 'round' of combat, you just see those rounds when your character's speed allows you to attack.  If combat went by slower and was more effective in each round, then maybe my ire at this would be assuaged.

[Gunnerblaster]

I am dissappointed that this is planned to go in.  Combat goes by too quickly... especially since you don't actually get an attack every 'round' of combat, you just see those rounds when your character's speed allows you to attack.  If combat went by slower and was more effective in each round, then maybe my ire at this would be assuaged.

It isn't planned to go in as I stated above. Morg just said they were attempting to come up with a foundation for something similar to this idea.

[Good Gortok]

I absolutely believe it should be guild dependant to a degree.
Your average warrior, whose primary function is melee combat should not tire as quickly in combat as any other average class. There should also be modifiers dependant upon melee combat skills as well. So, a warrior vs. a ranger of equivalant skill levels (in regards to melee skills) should not tire as quickly. But a ranger vs. a lower-skilled warrior might tire about the same or less than said warrior.
[...]
And it should also be modified by what your secondary guild is as well as modified by the character's endurance stat.

Why should it be affected by guild? What are guilds but a packet of skills and a vague indication of a character's general aptitude up to the point where they enter the game? Nothing, which is exactly why we're allowed to create a human warrior who happens to be hired as an aide right after creation and never lifts a sword. Why should such a character by default have a greater constitution than, say, an assassin who ends up spending his life as a Byn Trooper? Properties generally affiliated with such things as "the average warrior" should be determined by what actually indicates the average warrior: their combat prowess, or skills. The more hard-coded, unchangeable properties we tie to a guild, the more they become classes and the more players will pick them for those properties rather than for who their character is. We would be much better off with an actual skill pick system, but since this is unlikely to happen, we need to at least reduce the static mechanic difference between guilds. As mentioned above, it makes about as much sense as warriors recovering stun three times as fast as any other guild except rangers who are in the middle. These are the kinds of things that should be affected only by how you play your character, not whether you chose B or K or F during chargen, otherwise half the characters in this game end up with class mechanics that are not realistic given their actual lives.

[jhunter]

Why should such a character by default have a greater constitution than, say, an assassin who ends up spending his life as a Byn Trooper?

Actually, the way I put it this wouldn't be the case. At the very start, yes the warrior would use less stamina because of the character's makeup and past experience with melee combat. (Which is, in part, what your guild reflects. Your guild also is your character's future potential in that area.) But, should the warrior not increase his/her melee combat skills while the assassin character continues to work on them, (and in turn decreasing their stamina use while using melee combat skills) the assassin character will soon reach a point where he/she uses less stamina while in melee than the warrior who has not improved his skills in that area.
It's not "greater constitution" it's conditioning.

Would you say that it's unreasonable, for example:

If there were a footracer guild and a couch potato guild, for the footracer guild to use less stamina in comparison to the couch potato guild when running?

If there were a porn star guild and a celibate monk guild, for the porn star guild to use less stamina in comparison to the celibate monk guild when fucking?

Do you believe that it would make sense for a character with the couch potato skillset be able to run against a character of the footracer skillset and -not- tire out more quickly?

That would make absolutely no sense to me.


There is supposed to be differences between the guilds. That's the whole purpose of them. As for creating more variations between the guilds, the new guild system already takes care of that. You can, instead of being a complete warrior, be a warrior/merchant, or a warrior/merchant/ thief.

[HammerofJericho]

Very, very annoying.......but I've sort of moved away from high combat characters anyways due to the stress on stats.....it's so much more fun to not worry about stats.

[jhunter]

To add, I originally disliked the idea of making the warrior guilds "specials" cost stamina to begin with. I still don't like it and have shied away from player warriors at all now, though they once were my favorite class.  But, since that's the road we've gone down, I believe the whole "stamina use during combat" needs to be flushed out more fully and make it something that affects everyone of every skillset when involved in melee combat to a more realistic degree.

[lussien]

Realistic combat to me would be that the battles don't finish so fast, like if A strikes B in the same spot, it'll cause more hurt than hitting one place and another. I also find that being hit on the head hurts far too much when it's just a 'nick'.

I also agree on not having special guild skills or whatsoever. It'll totally ruin the realism of Arm. I've been to many muds before and usually you're conscious on picking a guild that is either good in hunting or player killing. I'm hoping that I can go against the grain and be good at hunting and player killing without following the norm.

[Morrolan]

There are hidden "offense" and "defense" skills.  These might be used in some way to reflect such "conditioning" and resultant stamina loss.  Anyone have any ideas on whether this would be a good idea?