Discussion about the hardships that characters go through

[ibusoe]

A recent discussion on game difficulty yielded a consensus that many of our players would prefer the game world to be harsher than it is.  Several side discussions address related topics.

We play in a game with coded-sandstorms, coded Scrabs that can disembowel your character if you take more than forty paces outside the gates, and a set of rules that allows (more or less) open PK.

So why do some of us think that the game world is not harsh enough?

As an experiment, please consider these sample, arbitrary and imaginary, yet probably appropriate statistics:

The average zalanthan is poor.

The average poor zalanthan:

The average poor zalanthan gets mugged twice a game year.  Sometimes this involves a stick-up job, but sometimes a beating.  It happens often enough that it's probably not a big deal to them. 
The average poor zalanthan has their house burglarized every couple of game years.  There's not much point in storing a lot of valuables in an apartment.  After all, it will just get cleaned out by thieves every couple of years.
The average poor zalanthan takes a week off of work (without pay) every couple of game months to care for a sick family member.  It's not like you can take them to a hospital.
The average poor zalanthan is sick bad enough that they have a miserable day at work, once per month.  Every couple of weeks or so they have to miss a day of work due to disease.  Periodically, they get laid out for a couple of months due to disease.
The average poor zalanthan has four or five brothers and sisters.  These brothers and sisters are constantly borrowing money from them, as are your parents, uncles, aunts, nieces and nephews.
The average poor zalanthan is supporting an average of three offspring.  Two of them will not live into their reproductive years.  Your offspring are constantly hungry, and constantly getting into fights and legal trouble.  If only you had a little more time to teach them about religion, job skills and the legal system.
The average poor zalanthanhas spent a couple of months in jail, either for a crime they have committed or being falsely accused of something,or just the wrong place at the wrong time. 
Twice in your life your tribe or city state has been involved in a major armed-conflict.  During this time resources were more scarce even than usual.  The shortages caused many to grow weak and die of disease.
Your average zalanthan dies before the age of forty, of disease.
Your average zalanthan sees major heat-waves hitting their city.  When this happens, hundreds of people die in their sleep of dehydration.  They don't drink enough because they want to save money.
Your average soldier has never worn a full suit of armor.
Crop plagues happen every couple of years.  When this happens, it's tough to get food, even worse than usual.
A couple of your close friends or immediate family have been deliberately maimed.
If you're in one of the major military organizations, you've probably participated in recreational rape.
Your average person has never received a lecture on the importance of saving money.  They get a paycheck, loan some of it to family, spend most of it and then don't have much to last until your next paycheck.  You think this is totally normal.
You share an apartment with ten other people.
Seomeone you know has been tortured.

While people may debate the exact numbers, I think most readers will agree with the general idea that life is bad enough that most people go from one disaster in their life to the next.

I think that if people actually took the time to role-play out all of the hardship that the (docs and game code) strongly imply, they'd enjoy their characters a lot more.
You'd get much less bent out of shape if someone spit on your character in the Gaj, or if you got pickpocketed, or if some House Fale aid looked at your character funny.

Worrying about getting a promotion to Sergeant or getting a metal blade or finding a coded six bedroom apartment might seem kind of silly.

[Qzzrbl]

All that only applies to the VNPC population....

However if there was a hard-coded way for all that to happen to PC commoners....

[Qzzrbl]

Which then people would complain about it, saying that their character goes through all that stuff when they're logged out in the virtual world.

So I dunno.

[MarshallDFX]

The GDB yielded a consensus?  I don't believe it.

[Mr_Fire]

Yeah, I think that if people took more time to RP out all those things, they very well -would- enjoyy/be more into their characters, like you said. It would make things alot more interesting, and playable. Yep, nice post.

[Aaron Goulet]

The GDB yielded a consensus?  I don't believe it.

Oh, just you wait... Only two three people have posted relevant responses so far.  

I agree with what ibusoe is trying to say, and most of my characters do struggle with these things.  Without getting too IC, almost all of my characters have been mugged, been raided, succumbed to dehydration or hunger, died to deadly desert-dwelling beasts, or had to sleep in makeshift residences for the entirety of their lives- All since I came back to the game a couple of months ago.  I don't think I do anything special to wind up in these circumstances, and I wouldn't say that I play very risky.

Hell, maybe I just have bad luck, but I always scratch my head in bewilderment whenever I see a commoner with the best-of-the-best combat gear, living in a fancy, four-bedroom downtown apartment with a scenic view, and eating scrab head (a delicacy, I'm told) on a daily basis.  Nothing against the players of these characters, but I always wonder how they pull it off, and if it's even any fun playing such a character.

(Edited for correctness, since someone posted while I was writing this.)

[Spice Spice Baby]

People are going to play their characters how they want to play them. I've seen characters that could fit into the mold ibusoe described. I've also seen commoner characters that became vastly wealthy and influential, although this usually took a good deal of time and resources and clan attachment to accomplish.

It's good to try and remind people of how the world we play in is supposed to be harsh and nasty.

I'd rather see it done in the game than on the GDB, where it runs the risk of becoming a post full of sweeping generalizations about how we're all just "not playing the game right."

[Aaron Goulet]

I'd rather see it done in the game than on the GDB, where it runs the risk of becoming a post full of sweeping generalizations about how we're all just "not playing the game right."

Hopefully I wasn't coming off this way.  I agree that people should play the way they want (within the guidelines put forth by the game documentation, of course).  I also agree that the most influential way to change the world is to be a living example: show people how cool being a lowly grebber can be by playing an interesting character without necessarily being a rich or influential one.  It's been done before.

[Spice Spice Baby]

I'd rather see it done in the game than on the GDB, where it runs the risk of becoming a post full of sweeping generalizations about how we're all just "not playing the game right."

Hopefully I wasn't coming off this way.  I agree that people should play the way they want (within the guidelines put forth by the game documentation, of course).  I also agree that the most influential way to change the world is to be a living example: show people how cool being a lowly grebber can be by playing an interesting character without necessarily being a rich or influential one.  It's been done before.

Nah, I wasn't talking about you. The wording of ibusoe's post just comes off as a bit preachy.

I think that if people actually took the time to role-play out all of the hardship that the (docs and game code) strongly imply, they'd enjoy their characters a lot more.
You'd get much less bent out of shape if someone spit on your character in the Gaj, or if you got pickpocketed, or if some House Fale aid looked at your character funny.

Worrying about getting a promotion to Sergeant or getting a metal blade or finding a coded six bedroom apartment might seem kind of silly.

... stuff like that implies that he thinks a good portion of the playerbase isn't doing those things, or should be seen as silly for acting the way they do.

[hyzhenhok]

One problem.

PCs aren't average Zalanthans.

[Aaron Goulet]

One problem.

PCs aren't average Zalanthans.

Correction: Some PCs aren't average Zalanthans.

[musashi]

One problem.

PCs aren't average Zalanthans ... unless you want them to be because you're playing a flavor role.

Fixed

[hyzhenhok]

One problem.

PCs aren't average Zalanthans.

Correction: Some PCs aren't average Zalanthans.

Correction: Most. The vast majority. All but a scant few.

ibusoe says your average Zalanthan is poor; your average PC is not. Clanned PCs tend to enjoy perks that exclude them from the vast majority of the hardships ibusoe tells us we should be suffering from. Most indie PCs (be they grebbers, hunters, burglars, merchants etc) are wealthier than their typical vNPC counterpart or at least have the capacity to become so. Wealth smooths over pretty much all of the hardships mentioned.

Fixed.

If you enjoy playing a role where you actively avoid involvement with plots, and do nothing but RP how awful your life is while barely making ends meet with your job as a cotton-picker or poop scraper, junking any excess coin you have to represent the hardships ibusoe has pointed out, all the more power to you.

That's the life of an average Zalanthan. I've never seen a flavor role that did that.

[musashi]

Fixed.

If you enjoy playing a role where you actively avoid involvement with plots, and do nothing but RP how awful your life is while barely making ends meet with your job as a cotton-picker or poop scraper, junking any excess coin you have to represent the hardships ibusoe has pointed out, all the more power to you.

That's the life of an average Zalanthan. I've never seen a flavor role that did that.

That's probably because the people playing the roles get bored with them and store. I can't think there are many people out there who would enjoy that sort of thing of thing for any extended amount of time. I always assumed that's why they were called flavor roles, because they were only for a short short time, trying to represent something that should be more common, but is never actually represented by a player character.

My honest opinion on the "the game isn't harsh enough" thing ... I don't think most folks want the game to actually be harsher; but rather, harsher in a 3rd person kind of way. Like watching Star Trek. Most people don't want Captain Kirk (or their own character) to die to prove the situation is serious and dangerous, that's what the security officer in the red shirt (NPCs and vNPCs) is for.

I don't think anyone, including the poster of the thread, actually goes around with long-lived characters junking all their coins, RP'ing getting diseases that force them into poverity and despair, and trying their best to crawl under the shoe of everyone else in-game in some attempt to show how they think Zalanthas is a "harsh" place. I can't see a large number of people thinking that would be enjoyable at all, and I think it's silly to suggest that playing a character that way would make a person enjoy the game more.

Though I do think that some of the suggestions in the OP could add a bit of depth to a character if used every once in awhile, to flesh their story out or make them seem more believable. Things like RP'ing picking up a disease, finding another wealthy PC to borrow money from because virtual family members need it, punching an NPC with nosave arrest on to get arrested and tossed in jail for a common brawl, maybe even RP'ing out the aftermath of being raped or tortured by some vNPC's ... ...

I think those kinds of things, if done sparingly can really add to the game for everyone because they are in-line with the game world, and they make RP for other people as well. A physician could RP with the diseased character ... another PC could RP catching the disease from the character ... the wealthy money lender could press the lendee for favors or what not ... the militia PC would get to RP with the person who got in the fight ...

But even so, I think that having these things happen regularly to any one PC would proabably just be seen as being over dramatic by other people watching.

[My 2 sids]

Nice thread.


Think about Santa Clause.  When one is young, Santa is very real.  Then one finds out Santa isn't real and that childhood magic disappears.  But, for many there comes a time when although there is no longer the wonder that comes with a physical Santa; Santa becomes "real" -- regaining that magical feeling of wonder.

Likewise, when one starts playing Arm the "harshness" is very real because it is very new to us as players.   And then we play and the "harshness" dies off because we, as players, start to figure stuff out.    I think the trick that long-time players have figured out is how to tap into and renew their sense of wonder in the game.  Some do this by playing in a totally different environment, some a new race, and some by taking time off.  The point is, that harsh/wonderful world that captivated them as new players, now captivates them through new PCs.

And I think that's why veteran players get so excited by game additions like Feel/ Dream/ Think/ Mood/ etc ---  things which focus on character development (not necessarily plot development)     

I believe what the original post is saying is any plot-driven harshness, setting-driven harshness can still offer players an intense role-play opportunity; enough to bring back the excitement to the game.

[roughneck]

poor doesn't equal harsh
Even for a rich character I think armageddon is a pretty harsh place, you're just used to it, and as a player, don't have to feel what your character does.  Even as a rich hunter, if you don't kiss ass and spread some of that coin around in the cities and with desert elves in the sands you're going to run into some hardship pretty quickly.  Just because you're used to falling in line doesn't mean the harsh consequences aren't there.  Also, just because a character knows that scrab isn't going to kill him, or even close to it, doesn't mean he enjoys getting his wrist pinched for 10hp.  Every PC I've ever played has had a much harder life than I have in real life, even the ones which had a lot more cash at hand than I ever have IRL.

Also, while PC's may or may not be 'average' zalanthans, nearly 100% do pursue the most lucrative professions: hunters, mercenaries, thieves etc.

How I've come to relate to my PC's personally is from some years I spent on drill rigs in northern alberta.   By far the most harsh, unforgiving thing I've done or place I've been environmentally and socially.  It's also the most money I've ever made by a long-shot.

Zalanthans live hard and are forced into taking big risks which either pay off large or leave them dead or maimed.  Most PC's take these risks pretty regularly, just because you're used to them, doesn't mean it's easy for your pc or that his/her life isn't 'harsh'.

[The Archbishop]

Well honestly it's way too easy to make money in the game. All this independent stuff was very scarce because you couldn't just go out mine sid everyday and make huge amounts of cash. Not to mention it was so harsh outside Nak at one point, you were scared to go out in a group, much less by yourself. It made people need clans and houses more than they do now. Shit it used to be a big deal to get paid 300 coins a month. Now I've seen people scoff at it like it's chump change.
It really all depends on what side of the fence your looking at it from to say if the game is or isn't harsh enough. Code wise it is what it is, rp can definitely flesh out the harshities more or less up to the players.

[Lizzie]

I thought I posted in this thread. Maybe I posted in one like it. Anyway:
I think the game is only "not harsh enough" to people who have been playing it long enough to have learned how to get around how harsh it is.

Once you know how to get around the harshness, of course it won't be harsh anymore. The game hasn't changed that much, and if anything, it's gotten even harsher than it was when I first started playing. I'm a whole lot better at adjusting to things that crop up though, now that I've learned the system, how to branch, how to get better skills, how to interact, how things are politically, what "subtle" means in Tuluk, how to not do things to get my character killed, etc. etc. But that's me, knowing better than I did when I started. It isn't the game, becoming less harsh.

The harsher you make it, the steeper the learning curve for new players. I think it's steep enough and doesn't need to get steeper, either ICly or OOCly.

[Aaron Goulet]

I agree with Lizzie.   The reason the game isn't harsh enough for most is because of the accrued OOC knowledge one obtains simply due to being around long enough.  The easiest way to combat this is adding in more "random" factors.

These could take many different forms, including:

• Random room effects.
• Plants and environmental objects spawning in random (instead of fixed) locations.
• Mobiles having a wider wandering radius, as well as the ability to wander outside of the zone they belong to (not sure if this is already implemented or not).
• Random, sector-based effects/events that occur on a very rare basis.

[Riev]

I've been playing long enough to consider myself just above n00b status (though those that have played with me may confirm I am indeed a n00b) and I find it not difficult at all to keep myself poor. I don't think my current character could even -imagine- being paid 300 coins a month, and often walks around with less than a small to his name.

Sure, I know all the ways I -could- make money, but its not worth it and for the most part is not something my character would do. Though I agree with ArchBishop, that some time ago, it used to actually be DANGEROUS to do stuff that made money outside cities. Krath, one time I was foraging salt east of Allanak and a straight up giant came up on me. To this day I am -still- afraid to forage for salt.

[ibusoe]

I thought I posted in this thread. Maybe I posted in one like it. Anyway:
I think the game is only "not harsh enough" to people who have been playing it long enough to have learned how to get around how harsh it is.

Actually, I think that we're agreeing with each other.

For noobs, the game is hard because you're learning the game code and game world.

Once you're a seasoned player, the game should remain hard because you're immersing yourself in the faults of your character and the challenge of playing an illiterate, superstitious red-neck living in the middle of a desert.  If you're playing correctly, the game is never easy.

[Lizzie]

Right you are Ibusoe. I'm what you'd call a "semi-veteran," having been here a few years but not since the stone-age before Shalooonsh's pubes started to grow.

I'm finding my current "situation" in the game a big challenge, on many levels, both IC and OOC. Danger, harshness, risk, politics, branching, skill-maxing, stat-whining, interaction, lack of interaction. I'm experiencing all of it, and it's almost as though I was playing Armageddon for the first time, except, I know the syntax for *most* of it (not all, still).

Having a blast, and honestly, anyone who's experiencing the "same old same old" and "piece of cake" needs to just retire their character and play something ridiculously different. If you think you've done it all, already, you're probably incorrect.


Edited to add the right number of o's in Shalooonsh's name.

[RogueGunslinger]

Right you are Ibusoe. I'm what you'd call a "semi-veteran," having been here a few years but not since the stone-age before Shalooonsh's pubes started to grow.

I'm finding my current "situation" in the game a big challenge, on many levels, both IC and OOC. Danger, harshness, risk, politics, branching, skill-maxing, stat-whining, interaction, lack of interaction. I'm experiencing all of it, and it's almost as though I was playing Armageddon for the first time, except, I know the syntax for *most* of it (not all, still).

Having a blast, and honestly, anyone who's experiencing the "same old same old" and "piece of cake" needs to just retire their character and play something ridiculously different. If you think you've done it all, already, you're probably incorrect.


Edited to add the right number of o's in Shalooonsh's name.

QFT

[Incognito]

A recent discussion on game difficulty yielded a consensus that many of our players would prefer the game world to be harsher than it is.  Several side discussions address related topics.

This is a totally personal opinion, but I think the game would become monumentally difficult, and much more interesting to play, if movement loss between realistically far-off places was increased, and, more NPC aggros were added on the default roads.

Currently, a d-elf or a ranger with a half-decent mount, can ride the length and breadth of Zalanthas, without breaking a sweat, and in 9 out of 10 cases, they might not even encounter any dangerous creatures enroute.

Zalanthas has become a global village....it needs to go back to being a World.....

[Akoto]

Personally, I think there is a fine line between difficulty and drudgery. I see no benefit in enforcing the latter.

Yes, we're all here before we enjoy RP in a harsh environment, but pursuing the concept to the point where every turn is a trial just becomes tiresome. There must be some room for fun, and some bending of realism for the sake of playability.
 
In these discussions, I think it's important to remember that not all clans and peoples reside within the cities. Most of you will only have to confront these suggested problems when you leave the walls. However, for d-elves/nomads/wilderness types, tiresome movement and nonstop predators would be a constant and major issue. The majority of said clans are not even manned well enough to handle that. Then, you have the clans which travel between cities as a matter of purpose and survival, and have never thematically required outside escorts.

Upping the difficulty level changes a lot of things.

[Uberskaapie]

Arm only seems like it's not harsh enough once you're over the learning curve. If you want to push yourself, go on ahead and play a role in a -seriously- remote place. There are plenty of areas in game where you'll come across tons of aggro npcs.

[Kryos]

A recent discussion on game difficulty yielded a consensus that many of our players would prefer the game world to be harsher than it is.  Several side discussions address related topics.

Definitely not a consensus.  I think you're just attempting to inflate your position with this, I saw a lot of discussion about the pros and cons of it and know some players saw no need for it.  Further, the GBD threads typically represent ~20-30 players, some times as few as 5-10 when we know at least 100 or so are out there.  There is a certain sect of players that want to see the game made harder, yes, and unsurprisingly these are long term players.  I say its unsurprising because I would like to point out a very simple, understood part of gaming as a hobby.  

Pick any game, mud, mmorpg, table top, board, whatever.  Now, the first time you play it, its typically engulfing, so many rules, things to do, and strategies and tactics to learn.  Now play that game your 100th time.  It feels natural, easy, and you know almost everything there is to know, having either applied overt analysis or simply incorporated observed information and behavior into what you do.  

ex:  World of Warcraft.  When I started playing just after beta, I was totally engrossed and a newb, I didn't even know my own class.  By the end of the Burning Crusade expansion I had lead a guild to the game's end before the changes, and could tell any player in the guild how to make a race/spec/gearing choices for their particular role.  It was at this point I quit the game, because in my mind, I had truly beaten it.  

Veterans of any game are inclined to be pro-hardening(as I was), because they have usually mastered the game in its current incarnation.  Problem is, not too long after the 'difficulty' is cranked up it will become the norm and you will not long remain content.  There are other problems with increasing the inherent difficulty of things, including fun and retaining players.

There's a point where difficulty arbitrarily becomes a labor.  There are several features of the game that already walk that fine line of difficulty versus cumbersome.  I think making the game 'harder' in many suggested ways would just make it instead 'tiresome' for most the population.  

You want to have a harder Armageddon?  Chose roles that are not easy.  Stop taking your acquired knowledge and feeding it to your characters.  Do things you as a player know are absolutely not a good idea, but your character has no clue on.   I've found a variation of character knowledge yields the best results.  One guy might be a crusty salt dog, knowing the lay of the lands like his own heartbeat, and yet another might be a city-boy, who could point you to a bump on a long on the back of a ant in undertuluk, while having no idea what lies beyond the walls.  

[Gunnerblaster]

I play to roleplay and interact with PC's for intense storyplots - Not get wtfpwn'd by NPC's.

[musashi]

I play to roleplay and interact with PC's for intense storyplots - Not get wtfpwn'd by NPC's.

The irony is how getting involved in intense storyplots is usually what leads to the most glorious of all wtfpwn'ing by NPCs! 

[ibusoe]

Arm only seems like it's not harsh enough once you're over the learning curve. If you want to push yourself, go on ahead and play a role in a -seriously- remote place. There are plenty of areas in game where you'll come across tons of aggro npcs.

I'm not sure that I agree.

I think that if you dumped a bunch of aggro NPC near the areas where my PC hung out, my response would be to type faster and emote less.  Basically, you'd raise the bar of the video-game aspect and I'd respond by learning to deal with the situation.

Rather, I assert the opposite -- that by encouraging PCs to abuse each other more, people would abuse each other more.  A heavy dose of non-lethal conflict would make things tougher.

[ibusoe]

I'm not sure I should repeat myself, but I feel like a couple of posters forgot to get on the train before it left the station.

Boiled down, I was saying:

"Challenge yourself"

anyways, thanks!