Concerning game trend: Not harsh enough?

[ianmartin]

Alrighty, here's my two cents worth, WHY ARE WE CONSTANTLY PROMOTING CONFLICT?

Okay, the world is harsh, we get it, people are mean, we get it, hard to make a buck, we get it, however, let's keep in mind that it is degenerating into a situation where everyone is trying to outdo each other in character description, trying to outdo each other in ways to creatively kill one another, trying to outdo each other in ways we can be mean.

WTF is the purpose of that, to see who's the biggest and baddest?  The best rp'er I have seen walked around, said a few words, did basic emotes, kicked ass when he had to, partied, was mean when it was necessary.  WHY do we (Not myself) feel the need that we are forced to constantly be mean or what have you, or arrange pieces of food so that it is showing dipped in shit, picturing gory things along the road etc?

I fear that it is only promoting dark things and frankly holding back the playerbase from growing further. 

[FuSoYa]

I love conflict.  It's what drives many of my characters and keeps me from sitting at a bar bored (which I also do from time to time).  That being said, I play the character not myself so I do try and make an effort to not do anything I don't think whichever current PC I'm playing would not.

That being said, I'm not a great player, but I give it a good shot here or there.

Brandon

[jcljules]

Alrighty, here's my two cents worth, WHY ARE WE CONSTANTLY PROMOTING CONFLICT?

Okay, the world is harsh, we get it, people are mean, we get it, hard to make a buck, we get it, however, let's keep in mind that it is degenerating into a situation where everyone is trying to outdo each other in character description, trying to outdo each other in ways to creatively kill one another, trying to outdo each other in ways we can be mean.

WTF is the purpose of that, to see who's the biggest and baddest?  The best rp'er I have seen walked around, said a few words, did basic emotes, kicked ass when he had to, partied, was mean when it was necessary.  WHY do we (Not myself) feel the need that we are forced to constantly be mean or what have you, or arrange pieces of food so that it is showing dipped in shit, picturing gory things along the road etc?

I fear that it is only promoting dark things and frankly holding back the playerbase from growing further.  

The conflict that makes the game fun is not any of the things you described above. Conflict just means that you have a goal and obstacles. That's how a story works. Conflict can be an explorer climbing a cliff in the wastes and almost slipping, or two Tuluki nobles fighting over a potential partisan, or two tribes fighting for control of an oasis. The game is nothing but a nicely written setting and a few characters, without conflict. In my opinion, the most fun type of conflict is conflict between PCs. You have an adversary to out think and defeating them is a lot more rewarding than killing an NPC or doing something that doesn't involve stepping on anyone else. I think a lot of people share that opinion, which is why people are always promoting more conflict in game. Conflict is not the same thing as harshness.

[ianmartin]

While I agree with what you are saying, what I am seeing is what I described.  I see some not all persons creating characters where they get a chance
to I guess play out whatever is going on with them elsewhere, vent their anger or what have you, in exchange, we get a moody bunch that I don't
give a hoot about interacting with.  Just my $0.02 from what I observed over the years.

[My 2 sids]

I agree with ainmartin.   Is this really fun?

Look, simply by the land and how the cities are set up there is conflict.   Remember, there are other types of conflict besides "person v. person".   

I guess I think of Arm being different than hack-n-slash (or other RPGs) in that it's beauty is telling a story, not necessarily fighting enemies.   

[FuSoYa]

I agree with ainmartin.   Is this really fun?

Look, simply by the land and how the cities are set up there is conflict.   Remember, there are other types of conflict besides "person v. person".   

I guess I think of Arm being different than hack-n-slash (or other RPGs) in that it's beauty is telling a story, not necessarily fighting enemies.   

I think you missed what jules had said as many of us do not view conflict as PvP or PvE for that matter.

Brandon

[My 2 sids]

Having a goal and obstetrical doesn't mean everyone has to play this big-bad-lone-hero type though.   If you're PC is going through life as if everyone is out to get them -- that is PvP!

[brytta.leofa]

obstetrical

I'm pretty sure I've done this in game?

[LoD]

Alrighty, here's my two cents worth, WHY ARE WE CONSTANTLY PROMOTING CONFLICT?

Okay, the world is harsh, we get it, people are mean, we get it, hard to make a buck, we get it, however, let's keep in mind that it is degenerating into a situation where everyone is trying to outdo each other in character description, trying to outdo each other in ways to creatively kill one another, trying to outdo each other in ways we can be mean.

WTF is the purpose of that, to see who's the biggest and baddest?  The best rp'er I have seen walked around, said a few words, did basic emotes, kicked ass when he had to, partied, was mean when it was necessary.  WHY do we (Not myself) feel the need that we are forced to constantly be mean or what have you, or arrange pieces of food so that it is showing dipped in shit, picturing gory things along the road etc?

I fear that it is only promoting dark things and frankly holding back the playerbase from growing further.

You seem to be lumping two very different aspects of the game into the same category, which is probably detracting from what I interpret as your actual point.

As others have mentioned, promoting conflict doesn't inherently mean over-the-top displays of hatred, violence, discrimination, or prejudice -- it just means that you have people in the world that disagree.  This could be anything from cultural differences (e.g. Tan Muark might not be happy in an establishment serving gwoshi steaks), racial differences (e.g. Elves might mock or criticize a mounted human as being weak), social differences (e.g. A wealthy merchant may ask a smelly Byn Trooper to leave their table.), economic differences (e.g. A wealthy merchant may toss a poorly cooked steak to the floor, while a 'rinthi might kill for it.), and so on.

And that doesn't even begin to integrate the conflict generated from organizations and people simply having different wants and needs which may center around achieving some amount of fame, becoming wealthy, rising above one's station, engaging in city politics, keeping peace between warring factions or tribes, policing the streets for criminals, acquiring land/property, obtaining approval from one's social peers, and thousands of other motivations.

What I think you mean to criticize, and with which I wholeheartedly agree, is the tendency for some players to consistently play characters with an unrealistic or excessive focus on embodying the "harshness" they feel needs to exist for Armageddon to be Armageddon.  These characters seem hell-bent on causing chaos, seeding unrest, and disrupting people's lives with some quality they believe is paramount to the Zalanthan experience.  Where I think many of these people miss the point is that Zalanthas is harsh enough without those attempts.

It's completely possible to play normal, well-adjusted characters that are productive, helpful, and successful within their environment without taking away from the "harsh" flavor of the game world.  They might be nice to you, but they may not even pause in stride to help a dying elf.  They may nod and graciously accept a drink offered by you, but they refuse a similar offer from a tribal or someone from the rival city-state.  They may conduct honest business with you, but they may lead a competitor that threatens their livelihood into an alley and have a couple thugs fix their breathing problem.

Virtue and Villainy are two sides of the same coin, and the best way to promote complex and meaningful conflict is to ensure that players can view it from both angles.

-LoD

[Kryos]

If you aren't experiencing harshness in the game's current environment, I suspect how your playing your own character is more likely the cause then anything else.  The harshness is out there, waiting.  If you're playing a character who takes no risks, you certainly can't bitch about having a safe time.  

Bribes - I can most certainly say that not everyone can be persuaded this way.  I've seen bribes fail, I've had bribes fail.  Often times, what you would have to use as a bribe is more valuable then what you're trying to attain.   But, you never know.  They just might take it.  Sounds harsh to me.

Outlaws - They are out there.  They will ruin your day.  People get frustrated because 'its tough to be an outlaw.'  Hollywood glorified crap aside:  well duh.  If you're the schmuck who is actually using his spear to rob people, your life is going to suck.  YOU will be the target of people's ire, not the robber baron who finances you.  You will be the one who has to deal with the fact this guy you cornered is actually a Tor Scorpion and is kicking your head in.  Don't want a harsh life?  Overthrow the robber baron and take his place.  Make the templarate see your legitimate business for what it is:  profitable for all.  Of course, then you have to guard your own position . . . sounds harsh for all to me.

Travel - Unless you're a veteran grizzled combatant, travel's a pain.  Of course, sane people use their heads to *avoid* the trouble that is looking for them.  And it is looking for you.  Sounds harsh here.

Serendipity - The shadows that come in the night, the Mekillot waiting around the bend, the gicker that turns you into an a-cup or makes your manhood not work any more.  Some times bad shit happens out of the blue.  I know this, because I have both inflicted woe and received woe from others because RP said I should, or the code is just all too happy to show you how abruptly a life can end.  RP in Zalanthas is documented to make conflict happen.  The code is a unforgiving hammer dropper.  The game is built around different *styles* of conflict, and not every style is for every player.  But it is there.  It wants you.  harsh-o-rama.

In short, I've read a lot of squeaky wheels lately.  The game is harsh, things are out to get you, and 'its dangerous to go alone', but don't ask me for help.  If you're not convinced of this, bump into me IG.  I'll be glad to {send to mantis head|rob blind|mudsex|mudsex after robbing blind|mudsexx after sent to mantis head| disgrace|bribe|take bribe from|take bribe from then tell anyway|do all of this to} you as is appropriate.  I know I'm harsh.

[KankWhisperer]

Yeah I agree no worth to my post, other than to express my personal frustration.

[Fredd]

back when i was a storyteller on a WOD chat i would have people ask me "this is the world of darkness but the pc SEEM nice enough, whats up"

The simple explanation of this is that as PC's you arent the average joe or jane running aroun the world, you have that special spark to make you differant. so the status quo isnt necisarillyyou. that being said, just because they seem nice, remember everyone has there own goals, and could be planning your murder in there shady corner.,


(forgive mispellings. it was bar dayfor my shift, so i been drinking a touch...to much)

[Kryos]

Internet/mud tough guy alert.

You really missed the point, didn't you? 

[KankWhisperer]

[Cutthroat]

back when i was a storyteller on a WOD chat i would have people ask me "this is the world of darkness but the pc SEEM nice enough, whats up"

The simple explanation of this is that as PC's you arent the average joe or jane running aroun the world, you have that special spark to make you differant. so the status quo isnt necisarillyyou. that being said, just because they seem nice, remember everyone has there own goals, and could be planning your murder in there shady corner.,


(forgive mispellings. it was bar dayfor my shift, so i been drinking a touch...to much)

It's been said before, but most PCs should be exactly, or fairly close to, what the game documentation demands. PCs aren't there to be extremely different, but they do have more opportunities.

Really, if you play with the expectation that your PC will grow to like certain people and hate others, the conflict and "harshness" is all set out for you. It's just up to you to grab it by the horns. You don't have to go out of your way to create problems out of thin air - the tension continually exists.

[Spoon]

If you think the game's not harsh enough you're not playing the right roles. There are plenty of ideas out there that involve a huge amount of struggle just to get by. Stay away from clanned roles for a while and play an independent. The game changes a lot when you have to buy your own food and water.

[musashi]

If you think the game's not harsh enough you're not playing the right roles. There are plenty of ideas out there that involve a huge amount of struggle just to get by. Stay away from clanned roles for a while and play an independent. The game changes a lot when you have to buy your own food and water.

It doesn't really. Indies can make a ton of cash faster than an clanned characters are capable. I agree with you that the game is plenty harsh depending on the type of role you play, but the struggle for food and water is something for vNPCs and PC's lost in a sandstorm to go through. I don't think any PC actually struggles to stave off the hunger and thrist code after even a basic understanding of how the code works, and how you can make money from NPC sales.

[Salt Merchant]

[Indies can make a ton of cash faster than an clanned characters are capable.

People keep saying this. Maybe we should clarify it to be "northern indies"?

[Lizzie]

[Indies can make a ton of cash faster than an clanned characters are capable.

People keep saying this. Maybe we should clarify it to be "northern indies"?

Golly gee, Mr. Ruth, it's like Deja Vu all over again!

[Salt Merchant]

[Indies can make a ton of cash faster than an clanned characters are capable.

People keep saying this. Maybe we should clarify it to be "northern indies"?

Golly gee, Mr. Ruth, it's like Deja Vu all over again!

It must be nice to live in a world where you're right -all- of the time.

[Cutthroat]

It shouldn't be clarified to be "northern indies". Southern indies have it just as difficult as northern indies. To go in any further detail would be bordering on IC info sharing, but if you want to find out what's so difficult in the north, then I suggest you make the effort to find out ICly sometime, by making a northerner who tries to make it alone.

[Salt Merchant]

It shouldn't be clarified to be "northern indies". Southern indies have it just as difficult as northern indies. To go in any further detail would be bordering on IC info sharing, but if you want to find out what's so difficult in the north, then I suggest you make the effort to find out ICly sometime, by making a northerner who tries to make it alone.

IC info again. Well, you're right, but it makes trying to settle the issue a little frustrating, doesn't it.

By the way, I've played a character that lived part of his life in the north and made it alone there. He wasn't even a fighter sort. Once you know a few crafting recipes, it's easy to get by. In the south, I'd argue it's not quite so easy, although there are a couple of trades that can make you rich -if- you spamcraft, I'll admit.

[Yam]

It's pretty easy make money no matter what city you're based out of. There's no need to go all, 'Doh-ho-ho-ho Tuluk is easy mode.'

It's just. Not. Funny. Anymore.

[Sephiroto]

If you want conflict, play a prick.  Or be one in real life.

[Ocotillo]

If you want conflict, play a prick.  Or be one in real life.

Done and done.